Other Dedicated Leads

[inane_titter]

I personally would run Oblivious (wich now protects from Taunt) and Focus sash: you get your rocks the first turn, then Endeavor anything slower than you if you activated the sash the turn before. Otherwise, you can simply spam Earthquake or go faster with Ice Shard. It typing makes Mamo even immune to weather damage, the only able to do that. So i'd run:

Mamoswine Focus sash
Trait: oblivious
Nature: jolly
Evs: 252 atk, 252 spe, 4 HP
Moves:
-stealth rock
-endeavor
-ice shard
-earthquake

In my personal experience, I've found this set too limited in that it only plays the role of a suicide lead--it's hard to bring this 'swine back into the game later on. With the set I am running, I can either open with Mamoswine or keep him back for the mid-game (opting instead to open with Rotom-Wash as a scout) whereas with the Focus Sash Mamoswine I feel like it is an opener and that is it.

I suppose this is all a matter of personal opinion.

 

[Shurtugal]

IDK about other plays tykes but dedicated leads on HO still work; its not as easy to spin or defog as most users think it is. I've been using a sticky web team with huge success all because the team simply adapts well.

Leads probably suck on bulky offense or stall though

 

[inane_titter]

I've been using a sticky web team with huge success all because the team simply adapts well.

For your sticky web team, do you lead with Smeargle or Galvantula? Or is there another popular lead that I am unaware of?

 

[Shurtugal]

Smeargle b/c it can also SR and I can also explosion on defoggers fuck mandibuzz lol

 

[Ogami]

if you explode the turn they defog does it cancel it like it would rapid spin?

if so that's a huge boon for HO. That one turn of bringing in whatever threatens the defogger/spinner could be enough. Plus I've seen some nice smeargle builds with parting shot that have utility in the midgame for momentum and don't have to be your auto lead

 

[Shurtugal]

Yes Defog fails if there isn't a pokemon to hit it with so it works if a.) you explode or b.) you send something in that dies to SR (like 1 HP Smeargle).

 

[NotBruceWayne]

Not hating anything in particular but I think that hazard setting Smeargles with Spore, Stealth Rock, Sticky Web, Magic Coat or Spikes (Magic Coat is definitely better IMO) have fallen down pretty hard. With stuff like Mandibuzz blocking Spore and Defogging all it hazards and a new Magic Bounce user MAbsol which isn't exactly the best MEvo, but still I think it can be used as a decent anti lead (Catching a Ferrothorn with Fire Blast while blocking Leech Seed, T-wave and SR is always good) running around, one will have a hard time getting any use out of it. If you're looking for Spore, Breloom will probably be a better choice because it has way more offensive presence and it isn't Taunt bait. The same will go for Baton Pass variants of Smeargle

I think this Gen, with no really, really dedicated leads, predicting would be the key.

 

[Kairyu_Gen1]

Agreed on the prediction being the dominant factor on who to lead. Most of the time, I lead with MGyarados, as it can KO Rotom with Mold Breaker EQ, and it hits most SR setters for SE damage. I also sometimes lead with a status inducer, as many leads are still scout oriented. I don't usually lead with it, but I often switch in Espeon, predicting the status/hazard.

 

[Antonius the Great]

I usually lead with Skarmory or Klefki (whatever my Steel-type is) because they have the biggest chance of resisting the attacks of the opposing lead, but I've actually been going anti-lead a lot. Since Klefki and Skarmory are common leads, I noticed a lot of people sent in Infernape/Volcarona/Heatran as a lead, to counter mine, so I predict that and lead with a sweeper often now, to clean up the threats to my would-be leads so they can try getting in safely to set up hazards

 

[Hidious]

I usually lead with rotom w or aegislash depending on matchups. You may think, Why would you use aegislash as a lead? Well, I'm using the wallbreaker set and it is a great way to get offensive pressure on the opponent at the start of a match. If the opponent doesn't have a mandibuzz there is a great chance I poke big holes into the opponent setting up an easier sweep for a teammate.

 

[rachet67]

I don't think its smart to blindly lead with your volt/u-turner. Many players expect this and pick their first pokemon accordingly to get the advantage. Its really wasting the opportunity team preview offers always leading with something like rotom-w or genesect.

 

[Hidious]

I don't think its smart to blindly lead with your volt/u-turner. Many players expect this a pick their first pokemon accordingly to get the advantage. Its really wasting the opportunity team preview offers always leading with something like rotom-w or genesect.

It's not a good idea to blindly lead with anything regardless if they have volt switch or u turn.Volt turn only makes it easier to manage if you guess wrong.

 

[Antonius the Great]

It gets even more pointless with VoltTurn though. The point of the moves is to keep momentum, but what momentum is there to keep if you lead badly...? Prediction is very important if you don't have a dedicated or common lead to go with.

 

[Ogami]

I have to agree with Hidious on this one. Genesect and rotom are becoming much less effective leads, but that is more because of their predictablity as individual pokemon. U-turn and Volt switch are awesome to have on a lead to gain momentem very early, but only work when that user creates immediate pressure.

Wallbreakers have been a favorite lead of mine for a while, like Hidious's aegislash, because the offensive pressure they create starts the game off on your terms. This definitely relies on prediction, where u-turn and volt switch can again become useful.

 

[SomeDrunkRockLee]

I don't have a dedicated lead, but often against dedicated leads I lead with my pivot Deo-D, sort of as an antilead:

Deoxys-Defense @ Leftovers
Trait: Pressure
EVs: 248 HP / 16 Def / 16 SDef / 228 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Taunt
- Toxic
- Recover
- Night Shade

This can beat virtually every defensive/hazard setting lead 1v1. Most of the time you open with taunt, granting you the momentum against Rock and Web setters, or spore from Smeargle or something. At this point, I evaluate the likely switch (it's not exactly easy to do damage to deoxys-d with a support pokemon's damaging moves) and double switch, or taunt, night shade or toxic the switch in. It's good for providing early momentum, and is invaluable in the late game as well (can singlehandedly dismantle most Stall teams, and is quite useful against any playstyle, using its defensive bulk against heavy offense and its useful access to taunt + recover to outstall and beat defensive threats).

 

[Hidious]

It gets even more pointless with VoltTurn though. The point of the moves is to keep momentum, but what momentum is there to keep if you lead badly...? Prediction is very important if you don't have a dedicated or common lead to go with.

With volt turn you can:

1. Break sashes which many leads use
2. Absorb a hit on a better matchup (if you are faster) while still being able to do some damage.
3. Get a pokemon in safely (if you are slower) without fearing a powerful attack or status move.

Being able to do damage while still being able to switch in the same turn is the definition of keeping momentum.

 

[Chev]

For your sticky web team, do you lead with Smeargle or Galvantula? Or is there another popular lead that I am unaware of?

A lulzy one you could use is Shuckle. Sticky Web/ Stealth Rock/ Toxic/ Power Split. If they didn't already have a hard time bringing him down, you have full set-up, or at least sticky web to handle whatever may switch in. Basically a suicide lead anymore though :/

 

[Tressed]

With volt turn you can:

1. Break sashes which many leads use
2. Absorb a hit on a better matchup (if you are faster) while still being able to do some damage.
3. Get a pokemon in safely (if you are slower) without fearing a powerful attack or status move.

Being able to do damage while still being able to switch in the same turn is the definition of keeping momentum.

The thing is that if you lead off against something you can't hurt, your opponent already has the momentum. You can use U-Turn or Volt Switch to take it away without wasting a turn completely, but don't be fooled into thinking that because Genesect has U-Turn it can lead against Heatran without a problem, because Heatran is getting a nearly free turn to do whatever the hell it wants since you can't actually hurt it. Switching moves are only good at keeping momentum once you already have it or for recovering it.

 

[Hidious]

The thing is that if you lead off against something you can't hurt, your opponent already has the momentum. You can use U-Turn or Volt Switch to take it away without wasting a turn completely, but don't be fooled into thinking that because Genesect has U-Turn it can lead against Heatran without a problem, because Heatran is getting a nearly free turn to do whatever the hell it wants since you can't actually hurt it. Switching moves are only good at keeping momentum once you already have it or for recovering it.

I'm not arguing at all that you should throw in your volt turn user as a lead against anything. I'm saying that volt turn users have an advantage in the guessing game in that they can volt turn out if it isn't a good matchup while other potential leads cannot. Whoever gets the best matchup at the start of the battle has the momentum. Volt turn is a way you can take it from them more easily.

 

[Ryolain]

I'm not arguing at all that you should throw in your volt turn user as a lead against anything. I'm saying that volt turn users have an advantage in the guessing game in that they can volt turn out if it isn't a good matchup while other potential leads cannot. Whoever gets the best matchup at the start of the battle has the momentum. Volt turn is a way you can take it from them more easily.

VoltTurners only guarantee you momentum if a) they're forcing your opponent to switch, allowing you to switch after them and bring in your counter to whatever they bring out, or b) you're a slow VoltTurner that brings something in safely after taking a hit. If you lead with Rotom-W and your opponent out predicts and leads with Excadrill, you are screwed and you gain no momentum because you're forced to switch. There's a difference between a VoltTurner being forced out and being forced to VoltTurn out - only the latter gives you any momentum.

 

[Hidious]

VoltTurners only guarantee you momentum if a) they're forcing your opponent to switch, allowing you to switch after them and bring in your counter to whatever they bring out, or b) you're a slow VoltTurner that brings something in safely after taking a hit. If you lead with Rotom-W and your opponent out predicts and leads with Excadrill, you are screwed and you gain no momentum because you're forced to switch. There's a difference between a VoltTurner being forced out and being forced to VoltTurn out - only the latter gives you any momentum.

Of course you can think of plenty of scenarios in which you will have to hard switch out instead of volt turning out. I never said it cant be played around. I am saying that volt turn is an advantage over other leads because often you can volt turn out if it is a bad matchup. You also gain momentum with a fast volt turn user and a teammate that can switch to something that can take hits.

 

[Blackbeltsam]

The Only Dedicated lead I like is Accelgor, because if you really needed to, you could just Final Gambit right off the bat and kill their lead.

 

[Ryolain]

Of course you can think of plenty of scenarios in which you will have to hard switch out instead of volt turning out. I never said it cant be played around. I am saying that volt turn is an advantage over other leads because often you can volt turn out if it is a bad matchup. You also gain momentum with a fast volt turn user who can switch to something that can take hits.

I guess I would rather lead something that has less risk of getting immediately forced out just so I can scout their lead and rather something that actually takes advantage of that first turn. A lot of hazard setters only need one or two turns - by the time you've VoltTurned to your counter, they're done and switching out anyway.

I'm not trying to say that VoltTurning doesn't work as a lead strategy, but I agree with the people saying it's rapidly losing effectiveness as it becomes more predictable. It's not as safe a scouting tactic anymore and it doesn't necessarily give you that immediate leg up that it did towards the beginning of the generation.

 

[Typhlito]

I find that talon makes for a good lead even though I have an alt lead depending on the team im facing. Talon is kinda like genesect being able to hit whatever it wants first and u-turning away if a counter pops up.

 

[NotBruceWayne]

VoltTurn leads like Genesect and Rotom are indeed easy to predict but Genesect in particular is pretty hard to counter because of its versatility and unpredictability. I always assume Special Scarf but sometimes there are people who run Physical Scarf or even Physical Band variants. I do think Genesect will be suspected soon along with the former 5th Gen Ubers so VoltTurn will eventually have to find new cores. In the meantime, any tips on how to counter Genesect?