One thing that scares me is that a lot of people might try to revenge kill you with a scarfed mon. If your not holding an item, then your crippled for the rest of the fight. PowerBeam doesn't have to worry about it, but anyone else know how to handle that?
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Pokémon Delphox
- Thread starter Upstart
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If Magician is anything like Thief you aren't locked into a move right away so Delphox could possibly Switcheroo it onto another Mon like Blissey or switch out into a counter
Magician and Switcheroo DO NOT mix well. There is no common scenario where you can benefit greatly from having both. Don't put them in the same build.
If you're using Switcheroo, you'd start with a "bad" item and try to swap for a "good" item. You'd have to aim for a consumable "good" item or else Magician is wasted, but battles don't always play out this ideally. You can use Switcheroo multiple times to aim for the consumable "good" item, but this is usually a waste of your turn. Bottomline, swapping for that extra Sitrus Berry is not worth the risk of a wasted Ability.
The point of Magician is to not have to waste a move slot on Switcheroo/Trick. Yes, you cripple an opposing Pokemon when you Trick, but you are then left with a 3-Move Pokemon yourself. Magician might as well read "the first Fire attack is boosted by 1.3x and has Knock Off effect" because that's the most common scenario that is going to play out. Consider that you would given Delphox the item that it receives through Magician if Delphox didn't have Magician; all Magician does is remove an item from your opponent. Now, the question is: is this really a good ability having interpreted the ability in this way?
("you have a 1 PP 120 BP Grass attack with Knock Off effect" is also a good interpretation)
If you're using Switcheroo, you'd start with a "bad" item and try to swap for a "good" item. You'd have to aim for a consumable "good" item or else Magician is wasted, but battles don't always play out this ideally. You can use Switcheroo multiple times to aim for the consumable "good" item, but this is usually a waste of your turn. Bottomline, swapping for that extra Sitrus Berry is not worth the risk of a wasted Ability.
The point of Magician is to not have to waste a move slot on Switcheroo/Trick. Yes, you cripple an opposing Pokemon when you Trick, but you are then left with a 3-Move Pokemon yourself. Magician might as well read "the first Fire attack is boosted by 1.3x and has Knock Off effect" because that's the most common scenario that is going to play out. Consider that you would given Delphox the item that it receives through Magician if Delphox didn't have Magician; all Magician does is remove an item from your opponent. Now, the question is: is this really a good ability having interpreted the ability in this way?
("you have a 1 PP 120 BP Grass attack with Knock Off effect" is also a good interpretation)
I'm not sure if anyone has mentioned this, but I'd like to think this thing could be a great late-game Calm mind sweeper in at least UU due to its high speed, special bulk, and mystical fire which actively damages AND continues to nerf other special sweepers (oh and also recovery in wish). Has anybody tried this out yet?
Is anyone experimenting with other Delphox sets besides Sub +Calm Mind? Yes Fire/Psychic is not the best of typing but has anyone tried this set:
Delphox @ Leftovers
Fire/Psychic
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Sp.Def / 4 Sp.Atk
Calm Nature
- Will-o-wisp
- Wish
- Protect
- Flamethrower/Mystical Fire/Psychic
Yes, 75 HP is not the best, and neither is 100 Sp.Def, but Delphox has nice resistances to Fire/Ice/Fairy/Psychic/Grass/Steel/Fighting when you have 354 HP and 328 Sp.Def. Will-o-wisp makes sure you are not Pursuit Bait by anything other than Houndoom as well as recovery with Wish. This specially defensive set would pair well with physically defensive Chesnaught as it resists Water/Ground/Rock/Dark and is immune to Shadow Ball thanks to Bulletproof. Delphox resists ice/fire/fairy/psychic moves that are weaknesses of Chesnaught. Chesnaught can lay spikes while Delphox can support the team by passing wishes while spreading status with will-o-wisp.
Delphox @ Leftovers
Fire/Psychic
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Sp.Def / 4 Sp.Atk
Calm Nature
- Will-o-wisp
- Wish
- Protect
- Flamethrower/Mystical Fire/Psychic
Yes, 75 HP is not the best, and neither is 100 Sp.Def, but Delphox has nice resistances to Fire/Ice/Fairy/Psychic/Grass/Steel/Fighting when you have 354 HP and 328 Sp.Def. Will-o-wisp makes sure you are not Pursuit Bait by anything other than Houndoom as well as recovery with Wish. This specially defensive set would pair well with physically defensive Chesnaught as it resists Water/Ground/Rock/Dark and is immune to Shadow Ball thanks to Bulletproof. Delphox resists ice/fire/fairy/psychic moves that are weaknesses of Chesnaught. Chesnaught can lay spikes while Delphox can support the team by passing wishes while spreading status with will-o-wisp.
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The thing with Sub + CM is that while it can work well with Mystical Fire, trying to use Delphox as a sweeper really makes it feel like an UU Pokemon. It's similar to how say, Houndoom in previous generations could sweep once in a while in OU, but the rest of the time it really couldn't stand up to the Standard Pokemon. Delphox gives me a similar vibe when I use Calm Mind with it.
Just a few things--firstly, Delphox should always be Max Speed Timid (or at least enough to outspeed either base 100s or 102s). It's neat speed tier is one of the chief reasons why you'd want to use it. If you want bulk, take away from its SpA investment.
Aldrius's Will-o-wisp + Substitute + Mystical Fire + Psyshock set is probably overall more useful than a sweeper, though even with that set, I often end up just reverting to a Talonflame instead, which can run a similar Substitute + Will-o-wisp set with far better attacking power (and priority). I guess Delphox has the Stealth Rock advantage over Talonflame though in that regard.
Just a few things--firstly, Delphox should always be Max Speed Timid (or at least enough to outspeed either base 100s or 102s). It's neat speed tier is one of the chief reasons why you'd want to use it. If you want bulk, take away from its SpA investment.
Aldrius's Will-o-wisp + Substitute + Mystical Fire + Psyshock set is probably overall more useful than a sweeper, though even with that set, I often end up just reverting to a Talonflame instead, which can run a similar Substitute + Will-o-wisp set with far better attacking power (and priority). I guess Delphox has the Stealth Rock advantage over Talonflame though in that regard.
I can't help but think there's a good way to use Magician to screw with multiple opponents, but unfortunately there's probably not a reliable way to dispose of Delphox's item in a way that doesn't take way too long.
From what I've seen so far, Delphox's most viable sets tend to use Substitute, which has much better synergy with Blaze and really wants Leftovers from turn one.
If anyone is still experimenting with Magician sets though, note that full speed is even more mandatory, because it allows Delphox to make use of any Choice Scarves it may pick up (whereas with a defensive spread the scarf would just cripple it).
If anyone is still experimenting with Magician sets though, note that full speed is even more mandatory, because it allows Delphox to make use of any Choice Scarves it may pick up (whereas with a defensive spread the scarf would just cripple it).
I'm not convinced that MAX investment is necessary, Delphox has a base of 104, it'll hit like 225 Speed at level 50 (or 450+ at level 100) with max EVs and a neutral nature. Depending on where speed tiers fall it might not need ALL of those EVs to make effective use of a Scarf. How much Scarfed Speed does it need to outspeed everything it wants to?
Well, if it truly does get 450 speed at level 100 with a neutral nature, then, holding a scarf it outspeeds max speed Deoxys-S with a positive nature, nearly outspeeding it sans scarf if it's got a positive nature!
[Delphox has nowhere near 450 speed at level 100 even with a positive nature; Latios is 6 points faster than it, and max investment with a positive nature at level 100 snugs him in at a nice 350 speed]
Oh, uh, sorry, I wasn't clear. I mean it'll get 450+ WITH the scarf, not before it. This is a good example of why it won't need max investment with a scarf though.
The minimum speed you'd probably ever want to run on a Delphox is 240 EVs with a positive nature to outspeed Garchomp. If you only try to outspeed Base 100s, things like Adamant Tyranitar with Sticky Web support can get you before you burn them or whatever. I don't know if there's anything between 102 and 104 that's relevant.
What are you going to do to Garchomp once you outspeed it? I can imagine you could HP Ice or burn it, but other than that, Garchomp resists one of your STABs and has the bulk to take a hit from a Psychic move. Delphox really has no business staying in against Garchomp anyway unless you're sure it can kill it because it Earthquakes you or sets up a Swords Dance.
As for Sticky Web, if you're using Delphox, you probably want a Rapid Spin user anyway to take care of Stealth Rock too. Perhaps Defog would work too if your team isn't concerned about its own entry hazards (but this is a conversation for another time).
In terms of using Magician, I feel like we should test some sets using things like Fire/Psychic Gem or even Sub-berry (Salac, etc.) sets to see how that works. Substituting down to low health, activating a berry, then stealing something like Leftovers or even a choice item in some cases sounds pretty scary.
Honestly Magician+Switcheroo can seriously mess with Pokemon who rely on items... for example steal Garachomp's Choice Item switch out and then Switcheroo on a Pokemon like Blissey and get leftovers to a choice item making her nearly useless
I've seen people use Red Card in order to use Magician. Does Red Card work under substitute?
If it does then something like this maybe:
Delphox @ Red Card
Fire/Psychic
Ability: Magician
EVs: 252 Speed / 252 Sp.Atk / 4 HP
Timid Nature
- Substitute
- Psychic/Psyshock
- Flamethrower/Fire Blast
- Will-o-wisp
Use that 104 base speed to set up Substitute as the opponent triggers the red card. Now you are free to use Magician. If the match up of the newly sent-in pokemon is favorable then you can opt to go for another sub, steal the opponent's item as they switch back to their counter, or spread status with Will-o-wisp.
If it does then something like this maybe:
Delphox @ Red Card
Fire/Psychic
Ability: Magician
EVs: 252 Speed / 252 Sp.Atk / 4 HP
Timid Nature
- Substitute
- Psychic/Psyshock
- Flamethrower/Fire Blast
- Will-o-wisp
Use that 104 base speed to set up Substitute as the opponent triggers the red card. Now you are free to use Magician. If the match up of the newly sent-in pokemon is favorable then you can opt to go for another sub, steal the opponent's item as they switch back to their counter, or spread status with Will-o-wisp.
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Switcheroo can do that by itself. Magician has no significant value in this case. Like I said, there is no common scenario where you can benefit greatly from having both.
Magician and switcheroo is good and all, but it's hardly good enough to justify filling an entire teamslot. Knock off, with it's new buff (making it the strongest reliable physical dark type move in the game in most cases) is far more usable, useful, reliable, and is able to work without having to sacrifice a teamslot. Standard choice tricking works the same as it always has, as well.
With Delphox's trick magician bit, you have to run switcheroo, plus I guess power-Herb and solarbeam is the consensus for the best move to work it with. So essentially, you're giving Delphox a support move that does nothing to recover or bolster delphox's defenses or otherwise help it survive, plus what is essentially a one PP move. Meaning that even more pokemon can switch in and destroy delphox then before, when it had the option of running even limited, weak coverage or boosting moves like CM.
And really, once the magician gimmick starts getting to be well known, as it's the only thing that makes Delphox stand out, good luck making it work. If you can get delphox to attack, steal an item, switch items onto another pokemon, and then switch items again (without dying, and considering delphox's bad defenses and typing), you were probably playing an opponent you could have beaten anyway without resorting to magician+trick.
Also, nearly every team runs a mega. All they have to do is switch in a mega and you've pretty much wasted a teamslot.
With Delphox's trick magician bit, you have to run switcheroo, plus I guess power-Herb and solarbeam is the consensus for the best move to work it with. So essentially, you're giving Delphox a support move that does nothing to recover or bolster delphox's defenses or otherwise help it survive, plus what is essentially a one PP move. Meaning that even more pokemon can switch in and destroy delphox then before, when it had the option of running even limited, weak coverage or boosting moves like CM.
And really, once the magician gimmick starts getting to be well known, as it's the only thing that makes Delphox stand out, good luck making it work. If you can get delphox to attack, steal an item, switch items onto another pokemon, and then switch items again (without dying, and considering delphox's bad defenses and typing), you were probably playing an opponent you could have beaten anyway without resorting to magician+trick.
Also, nearly every team runs a mega. All they have to do is switch in a mega and you've pretty much wasted a teamslot.
You can screw two Pokemon... A Pokemon who's dependant on a choice item will not like being throttled a FB/GK/Psyshock and having their items stolen. Plus walls hate getting switcheroo'd to a choice item. Magician Delphox has the potential to royally mess up item dependant mons
Most major Megan's wouldn't want to switch in... Blaziken and Gengar are murdered by psyshock. Lucario might not like it either...
For example Uber SD Blaziken takes 320-378 damage (
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Good, you named three megas. Most is not three. (The three you picked are also probably the ones most likely to be suspected).
How about four of the other commonly used megas, like M-Ttar, M-Blastoise, M-Charizard X, M-Garchomp? Or lesser used ones, like M-Gardevoir and M-Houndoom? Or ones that can still come in and ko if the circumstances are right, with chances being that they are: Maybe M-Absol on a psyshock? M-Kanghaskan KO's after SR with sucker punch. Same with M-Mawile if it switches in on psyshock. and M-Lucario actually comes in pretty alright on psyshock, too. Same with M-Blaziken on fire moves. A little good prediction goes a long way, same as it ever has in pokemon.
Not to mention that if you're using Solarbeam with any amount of sense you're probably using it on a pokemon that is weakened and can't hit back already, since you can't really afford to take hits. That gives you a free switch in. Not to mention Delphox is incredibly predictable, and a switch in on the solarbeam is not unreasonable.
I also noticed you picked out just one part of my argument (and admittedly the weakest part).
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I've just had an interesting thought regarding Magician Delphox in doubles: It'd be relatively easy to Frisk your target there (since you can Frisk two at a time now, particularly) and you could potentially even open with Delphox and a Frisker if you were feeling adventurous. (Delphox/Banette would be interesting, letting Delphox swipe an item of choice and Banette knock off the other one, as well as removing now-useless Frisk on Mega Evolving Banette and providing backup options such as double protect first turn followed by priority Will-o-Wisp second turn, which helps Delphox's defenses since it has solid SpD). This additionally gives you a choice of two items meaning you're much more likely to be able to grab something good, although I don't think any Frisk users get Fake Out which is a shame because that would have been handy.
Also, could Custap Berry Magician potentially work? Assuming one could avoid OHKO's, playing with the disadvantage of lacking an item to start with might just be worth being able to swipe one with priority later on. For defensive builds, Sitrus could be cute: Opponent attacks expecting OHKO, fails to kill due to a defensive variant, Sitrus berry triggers, Delphox's retaliation deals damage and steals their item. Even if the matchup is still unfavourable, Delphox can switch out with the new item and still-decent HP thanks to Sitrus. Similarly, Salac Berry on some sort of HP/SpA Delphox build could let you tank a hit down to low HP, get the Speed boost which puts even Delphox's uninvested speed up pretty high, nab their item, and threaten to outspeed and KO with a second attack boosted by whatever their item is.
Also, could Custap Berry Magician potentially work? Assuming one could avoid OHKO's, playing with the disadvantage of lacking an item to start with might just be worth being able to swipe one with priority later on. For defensive builds, Sitrus could be cute: Opponent attacks expecting OHKO, fails to kill due to a defensive variant, Sitrus berry triggers, Delphox's retaliation deals damage and steals their item. Even if the matchup is still unfavourable, Delphox can switch out with the new item and still-decent HP thanks to Sitrus. Similarly, Salac Berry on some sort of HP/SpA Delphox build could let you tank a hit down to low HP, get the Speed boost which puts even Delphox's uninvested speed up pretty high, nab their item, and threaten to outspeed and KO with a second attack boosted by whatever their item is.
The most reliable way to actually make use of magician is the power herb + solar beam combo, then land another attack. But that leaves solar beam pretty worthless after one use nless you have sun up and that still takes up 2 turns just to make use of the ability. Going itemless is not a very good idea and it's not exactly a good idea to pray that your opponent can let you use up focus sash.
Another option may be to run an air balloon for earthquake immunity, then as soon as you lose the balloon try to take an item away, but that's assuming you actually live something.
Another option may be to run an air balloon for earthquake immunity, then as soon as you lose the balloon try to take an item away, but that's assuming you actually live something.
PowerBeam steals the opponent's item immediately due to the way Power Herb works, from what I understand (Tested this in the Institute, seemed to work fine). And I think the main problem, come to think of it, with pinch or focus sash strategies is that they trigger Blaze too which is probably just more reliable. I'm still thinking defensive Sitrus could work if the defensive build avoids enough expected OHKO's
You know, Game Freak dun goofed a bit when making Delphox, since she has a great offensive typing but average movepool at best, while she has a solid support movepool with a mediocre defensive typing. But it makes me wonder, could she do well as a sort of surprise lead?
Delphox @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Magician
EVs: 240 Spd / 252 Def / 16 HP
Bold Nature
- Magic Coat
- Will-O-Wisp
- Light Screen/Switcheroo
- Mystical Fire
Magic Coat outspeeds most hazard setters (though her STAB Fire attacks would take out pretty much any of them anyway), Will-o-Wisp can dent switch-ins, and Mystical Fire is there so she's not total Taunt bait and can help with Special attackers who would otherwise ignore WoW for the most part. Light Screen and Switcheroo basically depend on what ability you want to run; Light Screen should generally be run with Light Clay, but it would make Magician useless. Switcheroo is better for Magician, since it can further harass typical counters like Scarfchomp, especially if she uses her berry. EV's help maintain her high speed and 252 Def with a positive nature lets it even surpass her SpDef, which helps since most of her switch-ins abuse her poor defense.
Delphox @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Magician
EVs: 240 Spd / 252 Def / 16 HP
Bold Nature
- Magic Coat
- Will-O-Wisp
- Light Screen/Switcheroo
- Mystical Fire
Magic Coat outspeeds most hazard setters (though her STAB Fire attacks would take out pretty much any of them anyway), Will-o-Wisp can dent switch-ins, and Mystical Fire is there so she's not total Taunt bait and can help with Special attackers who would otherwise ignore WoW for the most part. Light Screen and Switcheroo basically depend on what ability you want to run; Light Screen should generally be run with Light Clay, but it would make Magician useless. Switcheroo is better for Magician, since it can further harass typical counters like Scarfchomp, especially if she uses her berry. EV's help maintain her high speed and 252 Def with a positive nature lets it even surpass her SpDef, which helps since most of her switch-ins abuse her poor defense.
There is merit to the mystical fire/psyshock/sub/will-o-wisp set in UU I think. It doesn't have bulk really, but it isn't fragile either. Particularly it's special defense is very usable. Which makes sub and mystical fire a good combination. Sub guarantees a mystical fire use (or more likely two mystical fire uses), which with 115 special attack deals decent damage and reduces the power of your opponent. (Not just for Delphox, but for whatever you switch in as well, or it forces a switch which just lets Delphox sub again.) Will-o-wisp deals with physical attackers and with Delphox's speed it's almost guaranteed to hit the opponent with it.
People forget psychic actually has really good coverage outside of dark, psychic and steel (one of which is almost never going to switch into a Delphox), and psyshock hits lots of things really hard. A lot of dark and psychic types are problematic, but a lot of psychic types don't wanna get will-o-wisped or mystical fired. And things like Sharpedo don't want to get hit with will-o-wisp. Delphox is a good support pokemon, not a good sweeper, despite what it's stats would lead people to believe. I just wish it had a better ability...
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