Pokémon Delphox

[Todd]

There is merit to the mystical fire/psyshock/sub/will-o-wisp set in UU I think. It doesn't have bulk really, but it isn't fragile either. Particularly it's special defense is very usable. Which makes sub and mystical fire a good combination. Sub guarantees a mystical fire use (or more likely two mystical fire uses), which with 115 special attack deals decent damage and reduces the power of your opponent. (Not just for Delphox, but for whatever you switch in as well, or it forces a switch which just lets Delphox sub again.) Will-o-wisp deals with physical attackers and with Delphox's speed it's almost guaranteed to hit the opponent with it.

People forget psychic actually has really good coverage outside of dark, psychic and steel (one of which is almost never going to switch into a Delphox), and psyshock hits lots of things really hard. A lot of dark and psychic types are problematic, but a lot of psychic types don't wanna get will-o-wisped or mystical fired. And things like Sharpedo don't want to get hit with will-o-wisp. Delphox is a good support pokemon, not a good sweeper, despite what it's stats would lead people to believe. I just wish it had a better ability...

While that is probably one of the better sets I have seen for Delphox, I really don't see it working exceptionally well. Number one is that the very nature of the set requires Delphox to cut its HP even further than it normally requires, which, when stacked against the entry hazard damage it'll normally have to take to switch in, coupled with the damage it'll have to take to switch in, and again taking into consideration the problems it will have finding a safe switch in to begin with, will not fare very well for it's longevity. Especially if, as you describe (and for best effect), it needs to switch in and out a few times and/or needs to set up more than one sub. And again, as I bring up every time I talk about Delphox, that truly atrocious defensive typing; pokemon like Rhyperior will still break substitutes and more, even after a WoW.

Now for some extensive theorymon that may or may not prove relevant: With OU overloaded as it is with new candidates for the tier that have gained new toys (like Azumarill, Togekiss, Scolipede, etc.), I don't really see many of the pokemon like Arcanine, Houndoom (w/o M-stone), Victini, Darmanitan, and the many other good-but-not-great fire types that dominate UU rising up to OU, particularly after the introduction of CharX and Talonflame. Maybe a few of them will drop, but I doubt it. Some may even rise from RU, as Entei gains Sacred Fire, etc. When one of the more dominant types of a metagame can counter your strategy, I don't know how it may play out.

It's a good set, though, maybe the best I've seen for Delphox - one that does something different, and maybe does it well. It makes me try to think of ways to fit the buffed Fire Spin on there, which I think would be really good given the nature of the set. I just foresee it having trouble getting situated and up-and-running, running for any amount of time, and dealing with the fire-type pokemon which currently flood the tier (particularly the physical ones). The extreme reliance on good prediction, even more than most pokemon, also makes me a little nervous.


EDIT: Also @ Mozilla Fennekin - Magic coat has +4 priority, it outspeeds everything not using similar or higher priority

 

[kabbes]

Hello folks. I've been reading and loving Smogon for a long time now, and I finally decided I wanted to add something.

I've been running a niche kind of moveset on Delphox that seems to work well with my team (Greninja, M-Mawile, Hawlucha, Hippowdon, Venusaur) and I thought I'd throw it out there:

Delphox@Life Orb
EVs: 252HP / split others between Sp Atk and Sp Def

Sunny Day
Flamethrower
Solar Beam
Psychic

What seems to happen a lot is that I switch into something weak to fire and then surprise the opponent with a Sunny Day whilst they switch to water or ground. I then nail them with a further surprise Solar Beam.

Partly, it's the surprise factor that seems to work. Firstly, nobody else is running Sunny Day. Secondly, nobody else is running Solar Beam. Thirdly, nobody else has invested in Sp Atk and put a life orb on the fox, which means that the surprise Solar Beam hits a lot harder than they would have been expecting.

Where the opponent has switched in a special water without me hitting Sunny Day, if the switched poke is not too fast and not too lethal, I also find that a Sunny Day nerfs the Surf/Hydro Pump enough for me to survive it, and then Solar Beam kills them on turn 2, leaving me with decent set up to face a revenge killer.

I know it's a bit gimmicky, but so's the rest of my team too (i.e. entirely physical choice band Greninja, M-Mawile with baton pass).

Any thoughts? Please be gentle!

 

[Kadabrium]

Delphox @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Magician
EVs: 252 Spd / 252HP/SpA
Timid Nature
- Switcheroo
- Will-O-Wisp
- Hypnosis/Substitute
- Mystical Fire/Fire Blast

If you have tried dual status+roar Ninetales.
However isnt staying in OU anytime.

 

[mikeweltevrede]

Lately, I have been running the following set:

Delphox @ Flame Orb
Trait: Blaze
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SDef / 4 SAtk
Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
- Switcheroo
- Future Sight / Psyshock
- Hidden Power Grass / Grass Knot / Psyshock
- Mystical Fire / Flamethrower

I am running all of the first moves in the slashed slots (am considering Grass Knot over HP Grass now though).

Moveset video and battle showcasing the set:
Moveset:

Battle:

 

[Mozilla Fennekin]

Hello folks. I've been reading and loving Smogon for a long time now, and I finally decided I wanted to add something.

I've been running a niche kind of moveset on Delphox that seems to work well with my team (Greninja, M-Mawile, Hawlucha, Hippowdon, Venusaur) and I thought I'd throw it out there:

Delphox@Life Orb
EVs: 252HP / split others between Sp Atk and Sp Def

Sunny Day
Flamethrower
Solar Beam
Psychic

What seems to happen a lot is that I switch into something weak to fire and then surprise the opponent with a Sunny Day whilst they switch to water or ground. I then nail them with a further surprise Solar Beam.

Partly, it's the surprise factor that seems to work. Firstly, nobody else is running Sunny Day. Secondly, nobody else is running Solar Beam. Thirdly, nobody else has invested in Sp Atk and put a life orb on the fox, which means that the surprise Solar Beam hits a lot harder than they would have been expecting.

Where the opponent has switched in a special water without me hitting Sunny Day, if the switched poke is not too fast and not too lethal, I also find that a Sunny Day nerfs the Surf/Hydro Pump enough for me to survive it, and then Solar Beam kills them on turn 2, leaving me with decent set up to face a revenge killer.

I know it's a bit gimmicky, but so's the rest of my team too (i.e. entirely physical choice band Greninja, M-Mawile with baton pass).

Any thoughts? Please be gentle!

My only issue is that setting up weather isn't so great this gen, Delphox would rather get started immediately or at least force a switch with something like Switcheroo. She's one of those mons that's disappointed for missing the weather war known as Gen 5, but I guess if you know what you're doing you can get it right. No speed EV's is kinda ballsy and I'd run Psyshock over Psychic in order to get special walls, though.

Delphox @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Magician
EVs: 252 Spd / 252HP/SpA
Timid Nature
- Switcheroo
- Will-O-Wisp
- Hypnosis/Substitute
- Mystical Fire/Fire Blast

If you have tried dual status+roar Ninetales.
However isnt staying in OU anytime.

Pretty cool; exploring the underrated support options. Definitely needs EV's in HP instead of SpA, though.

Lately, I have been running the following set:

Delphox @ Flame Orb
Trait: Blaze
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SDef / 4 SAtk
Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
- Switcheroo
- Future Sight / Psyshock
- Hidden Power Grass / Grass Knot / Psyshock
- Mystical Fire / Flamethrower

I am running all of the first moves in the slashed slots (am considering Grass Knot over HP Grass now though).

Moveset video and battle showcasing the set:
Moveset:

Battle:

This is pretty interesting; runs some interesting moves and mixes support and offenses. I'm gonna run this sometime, methinks.

 

[mikeweltevrede]

This is pretty interesting; runs some interesting moves and mixes support and offenses. I'm gonna run this sometime, methinks.

Cool, let me know how it turns out. I am curious as to how others experience it and what could be done better (f.e. another EV Spread to outspeed/kill certain pokes or take other hit)! [:

 

[thepotatoofepic]

It is just a starter, and most starters don't make it very far. UU at most

 

[Rudoku]

It is just a starter, and most starters don't make it very far. UU at most

We get at least one OU one a generation, except Gen 2 (blame GF not releasing their HAs) and Gen 5.

 

[Mozilla Fennekin]

It is just a starter, and most starters don't make it very far. UU at most

Venusaur made OU.
All GenI starters are going to OU with their Mega forms.
Sheer Force Feraligatr might reach UU.
Blaziken is UBER (and was pretty solid before getting Speed Boost)
Empoleon is going to OU with Defog.
Infernape is OU.
Contrary Serperior will be OU if he gets the right coverage moves.
Protean Greninja is OU, wouldn't be surprised if he was found in Ubers.
Delphox has good attacking stats and a good offensive typing, not to mention that Magician is a very interesting ability. UU and OU.
Chesnaught.... eh.

So um, yeah. Bad argument is bad. Even if you don't factor in the hidden abilities of the old guys, the Gen VI starters are probably the strongest set of starters so far.

 

[Quaily]

fire/psychic isn't a good attacking type. pyschic is a real shit typing in general this gen, I wish it was something else.

 

[Fluffy Blue Bunny]

Venusaur made OU.
All GenI starters are going to OU with their Mega forms.
Sheer Force Feraligatr might reach UU.
Blaziken is UBER (and was pretty solid before getting Speed Boost)
Empoleon is going to OU with Defog.
Infernape is OU.
Contrary Serperior will be OU if he gets the right coverage moves.
Protean Greninja is OU, wouldn't be surprised if he was found in Ubers.
Delphox has good attacking stats and a good offensive typing, not to mention that Magician is a very interesting ability. UU and OU.
Chesnaught.... eh.

-Um, there's no way that ALL the Gen 1 starters will be OU. There's just not enough room especially considering they are competing for a mega spot. Venusaur is the most likely since it is just plain good.
-Agreed on Feraligtr if Sheer Force is ever released
-Empoleon is HARDLY assured to go OU. Defog is pretty mediocre and should not be a significant factor in Empoleon's tiering
-We'll se about Infernape...
-Horrible coverage is horrible coverage on Serperior
-Greninja is NOT going to Ubers
-Chesnaught is cool. Likely UU or RU.
-Delphox would be good in UU if Victini, Houndoom, Chansey, and Umbreon didn't exist to wall it. Also, Victini and Houndoom are better as attackers...so RU, maybe NU.

 

[AccidentalGreed]

I just came here to say that Delphox's, as well as other similar Pokemon, status as a "starter" does not have any solid bearing on its actual competitiveness/viability. Same as being being legendary or whatever.

So please for the love of god stop comparing it to other starters, and actually discuss what it can do and what it's good for. Predicting whether its tier placement is somewhat forgivable, but it really grits once you realize "starters" are no more than a name.

 

[Mozilla Fennekin]

lel if Delphox falls into RU this gen, I'm gonna die, roll over, and die again. NU should just not be mentioned here whatsoever, maybe when 1000 BST Pokemon overrun OU in 15th gen it'll happen, but not this year.
And really, four Pokemon are gonna keep it from UU? Hell, Chandelure and Chansey aren't even so great since there's the possibility of Shadow Ball and Psyshock, respectively.
Also for the Victini vs. Delphox argument, Victini has stronger moves and I think better coverage overall, but Delphox also has higher bases in Special Attack and Speed. So that's more of a preference thing as far as I'm concerned.
Plus, people are just looking at Delphox for its dual STAB and good special stats. Don't forget its support movepool and niche ability.

fire/psychic isn't a good attacking type. pyschic is a real shit typing in general this gen, I wish it was something else.

First time ever hearing that Psychic is a bad typing all-around. Please elaborate on how it suddenly got curbstomped by something this gen.

 

[Quaily]

when was psychic ever a good typing? not since gen 1. the only thing it is notable for is being strong against fighting, but fighting is nerfed this gen anyway. other than that psychic is terrible and it's extra terrible now with all the ghost attacks flying around. the idea of delphox even making it to uu is pretty far-fetched. It offers nothing over numerous other fire types that populate the tier and has many, many flaws. when you read down the list of things fire/psychic is weak to it's basically "top 5 most popular attack types: the list"

 

[Fluffy Blue Bunny]

I've got to agree with Quaily. Just because Delphox has a BST of 530 does not guarantee it a spot in either OU or UU. I admit that Serebii's "Pokemon of the Week" for Delphox was pretty much bashing, but it was also very true. Delphox struggles to make any kind of impact due to it's stats and movepool.

Firstly, it has a terrible movepool. Maybe it is passable...I mean, a psychic type with no Thunderbolt, Signal Beam, or Focus Blast is tragic. So, it has bare-bones coverage to go with it's pretty good special attack stat. Secondly, it's hidden ability is mediocre. Lastly, it has a great support movepool but is too frail to abuse it. Unless you can predict when to use Will-o-Wisp, the many Sucker Punches, Pursuits, and Foul Plays of UU will destroy Delphox.

And Mozilla Fennekin, YES four pokemon can and do make Delphox pointless. Why would you use one-dimensional Delphox when Houndoom gets Nasty Plot, better typing, similar speed, can go mixed, and can revenge kill Delphox. Umbreon also beats any Delphox set. Its Foul Play can break any Delphox substitute and will always do respectable damage.

 

[Fennekin]

And Mozilla Fennekin, YES four pokemon can and do make Delphox pointless. Why would you use one-dimensional Delphox when Houndoom gets Nasty Plot, better typing, similar speed, can go mixed, and can revenge kill Delphox. Umbreon also beats any Delphox set. Its Foul Play can break any Delphox substitute and will always do respectable damage.

Uhm, careful on that. Dewgong can take on Rayquaza one on one but that doesn't make Rayquaza less of an uber or Dewgong more than NU. Delibird can also outspeed Breloom and ohko with Hustle Aerial Ace, and virtually any Pokémon with Thunderbolt and usable SpA will OHKO Gyarados regardless of their tier.

 

[Todd]

Uhm, careful on that. Dewgong can take on Rayquaza one on one but that doesn't make Rayquaza less of an uber or Dewgong more than NU. Delibird can also outspeed Breloom and ohko with Hustle Aerial Ace, and virtually any Pokémon with Thunderbolt and usable SpA will OHKO Gyarados regardless of their tier.

the difference, of course, being that none of those examples are viable in the tiers of the counterparts you mentioned. Meanwhile, chandelure, victini, and houndoom are all high usage in the tier we're theorymoning dephox into. a better example you could have used would have been that Pokemon like darmanitan would be ou, except that rain and water was big in fifth gen so it never got a chance to shine.

edit: sorry doin this from phone

while driving

IN THE DARK

edit 2: also Mozilla, man, we've been over this so many times. victinis moves are so high in bp that even though delphox has higher offense, victini does more damage The only things you're doing with that speed in uu too is outspeeding flygons. magius and mien both still get you. And the support is fine man, don't get me wrong. I'm a little more optimistic than my pal blue bunny. But not by much. I don't see it getting set up too easy, and that huge reliance on prediction kills. Risky support is a hard niche to fill. But id love to be proven wrong.

 

[farranpoison]

the difference, of course, being that none of those examples are viable in the tiers of the counterparts you mentioned. Meanwhile, chandelure, victini, and houndoom are all high usage in the tier we're theorymoning dephox into. a better example you could have used would have been that Pokemon like darmanitan would be ou, except that rain and water was big in fifth gen so it never got a chance to shine.

edit: sorry doin this from phone

while driving

IN THE DARK

Look at this man

This man is the epitome of unsafe

Learn from his mistakes kids

On topic though, Delphox does carry the dreaded Psychic Typing, in a gen filled with Ghosts. Also Fire, in a metagame filled with Rocks. And also a gimmicky Ability, which more often than not won't activate more than once.

So yes, Delphox will probably not be OU.

 

[Mozilla Fennekin]

Acknowledged. Sorry for getting carried away, my post count should tell you how long I've been in this party.
Still, Fire/Psychic STAB can't be THAT bad, right?

 

[Quaily]

fire is good, but psychic doesn't help it overcome the things that would wall fire attacks. the psychic typing really is the main problem with delphox. it doesn't add anything offensively and makes it weak to dark and ghost. fairy is pretty much an upgraded psychic typing and fire/fairy would have been quite nice.

support delphox will probably be outclassed by gardevoir if it doesn't end up in ou. non mega gardevoir has WoW, fairly similar stats, and now has a much better typing. WoW being buffed to 85% is probably the biggest thing delphox is getting.

 

[Capella Shine]

Now I'm thinking about power herb with solar beam + magician ability since there's no gem in the game..

 

[Quaily]

don't. you get one kind of strong attack with a bad typing then solar beam will be a waste of a move slot. it's not even a gimmick, it's just plain bad.

I think a weakness berry would be best for magician. maybe the dark one so you can survive a sucker punch. or even a lum berry for walls carrying status.

 

[TheMohZone]

Maybe White Herb with Overheat? IDK it still not that great.

 

[Double Electric]

I really just don't like Magician because you have to use a suboptimal item (or no item at all) in order to make use of it. Most of the time, being able to choose an optimal starting item (Leftovers, Life Orb, etc...) is more effective than stealing a random item off the opponent while possibly crippling yourself in the process. Honestly, you can't always choose which attack you're going to use, so limiting Delphox's item to one move (especially a one-use move) isn't as effective as it sounds. Heck, if I ever bothered with Magician, I'd just use no item at all.

If Magician worked so that it was simply a free Knock Off with every hit it'd be more effective, but functioning like Thief really kills its usefulness. For the most part, Blaze will prove more useful overall. It's not only substitute--Delphox can occasionally be knocked into Blaze range by entry hazards and light hits on resisted switch ins. Blaze certainly isn't the best ability Delphox could have had, but it's still more consistent than Magician in a real battle.

 

[Shiruba]

I really just don't like Magician because you have to use a suboptimal item (or no item at all) in order to make use of it. Most of the time, being able to choose an optimal starting item (Leftovers, Life Orb, etc...) is more effective than stealing a random item off the opponent while possibly crippling yourself in the process. Honestly, you can't always choose which attack you're going to use, so limiting Delphox's item to one move (especially a one-use move) isn't as effective as it sounds. Heck, if I ever bothered with Magician, I'd just use no item at all.

If Magician worked so that it was simply a free Knock Off with every hit it'd be more effective, but functioning like Thief really kills its usefulness. For the most part, Blaze will prove more useful overall. It's not only substitute--Delphox can occasionally be knocked into Blaze range by entry hazards and light hits on resisted switch ins. Blaze certainly isn't the best ability Delphox could have had, but it's still more consistent than Magician in a real battle.

Exactly, and to add just a smidgeon, your opponent can even use Magician to their advantage. No longer needing to outspeed anything above base 110? Well, I guess I'll just switch in my Scarf Latios - now I can switch between attacks and maul your team!