Deoxys-D Discussion - It's not all about speed.

[iKitsune]

My main fear of Deoxys is two sets.

Its general ability to set up spikes and mixed defensive stats is extremely fearful as unlike skarmory or forretress who can easily be ohkoed/foced to switch out by the majority of special move users. Spikes will also be unable to be got rid of with all rotom a excellent ability to block spinners.

The other set that strikes fear for me is the agility taunt toxic recover set just horrible.
My main fear about deoxys l is the massive change it will have on the game. Can someone explain this to everyone if they dont get it or read this.

http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/deoxys-d


Can you change the poll options so i can vote UBER!!!

 

[IcyMan28]

Assuming this set.

-Cosmic Power
-Recover
-Taunt
-Night Shade

I probably would not have spikes on a set. Taunting is much more useful. The problem with this would definately be choice/life orb pokemon. However, if you saw a Scizor, you would probably switch out in the first place (you have no cosmic power boosts, no loss). Because the pokemon is choiced, even if it pursuited you (which Deoxy's-E is bulky enough to survive, even with technitian) it would leave you free to switch in a counter. If it U-Turned and switched, the new pokemon would have to land on some set of spikes set up before Deoxys (not by her, and Scizor can't rapid spin). Even though they would be able to pick to counter your incoming pokemon, that is what U-turn is for. And they would be down health. In terms of T-Tar, it is also choiced and can be used for your own setup. (In my opinion, Choice Items often lead to moments of setup, as well as sweeps). Life Orb pokemon are not so much an ease on the predicting but -.2 power is alot, and recoil damage.

T-tar and Scizor were just examples, and U-Turn was just a bonus point. While its true that they switch into some entry hazard, the situation is not exclusive to Deoxys-L and so it loses some of its force. -.2 power is alot, yes, but then that LO poke is likely going to have a super effective attack in the form of ghost / dark / bug.

On the other hand, if they send in something expecting spikes, you have a free turn to start your setup!

I don't think I answered this fully, but that's because I don't have all that much experience with Deoxys-E. I guess I'm therymoning, but aren't we all.

Yes, we are, though a suspect test could solve the issue with actual data. Third, this version of Deoxys fails against the omnipresent Blissey, as well as the lesser seen Snorlax. Pokemon with Recovery could also present issues.

About Spite, that's really too bad, it could do what Spiritomb does :(

Toxic Spikes are a problem for Deoxys though. Possible solution in arethmopancy by a teammate.

Pokemon that learn Aromatherapy / Heal Bell are scarce, however, and there are even less that are viable in OU:

-Blissey
-Celebi
-Shaymin

We see that Blissey could potentialy return to an Aromatherapy set, Celebi could run Heal Bell, and Shaymin could also run Aromatherapy well. So despite there being some viable users of Team Healing, they not only fail to get rid of Toxic Spikes (you would need an additional Spinner / Grounded Poison for that), but they are very limited in number. Looks like Toxic (Spikes) is another viable strategy to seriously hamper Deoxys-L (though this could be said of most walls).

At the moment I'm not entirely convinced that we should perform a full suspect test it, though if someone could try it out by the challenging method it'd be great to here some stories. Just need a bit more evidence...

I'm not sure that I understand what you mean by "the challenging method."

My main fear of Deoxys is two sets.

Its general ability to set up spikes and mixed defensive stats is extremely fearful as unlike skarmory or forretress who can easily be ohkoed/foced to switch out by the majority of special move users. Spikes will also be unable to be got rid of with all rotom a excellent ability to block spinners.

The mixed defensive stats are nice, but are let down by the base 50 HP, sadly. Also, spinblocking isn't really a point for Deoxys-L...since it applies in all cases its more like a point against Rapid Spin in general.

The other set that strikes fear for me is the agility taunt toxic recover set just horrible.
My main fear about deoxys l is the massive change it will have on the game. Can someone explain this to everyone if they dont get it or read this.

The set can be effective, but is destroyed by steels (magnezone I know), and pokemon that don't really care about Toxic (hard hitting sweepers, poisons, natural cure). We can't fully know what change Deoxys-L will have on the metagame unless it's tested, and it would then be declared Uber based on the Uber characteristics, not whether it is "overcentralizing," etc.

http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/deoxys-d


Can you change the poll options so i can vote UBER!!!

If you havn't already voted, I'm sure you can just select the "no suspect test" option.

 

[Aquamentus]

Wow, that low HP really undermines this thing. Hmm, It doesn't seem much sturdier than the now-unpopular Cresselia (though it gets to recover 50% in any weather), and it can be taunted... I think this is worth a test. Worst case scenario is, the offense-over-defense imbalance shrinks a bit.

 

[Chou Toshio]

2hko's are not impressive when they are boosted . . .

 

[Relictivity]

Icy Man, sorry, I just didn't want to make the post even longer than it was going to by adding a quote :) But before I go, I just want to thank you for making such good points about Deoxys-E, it really challenges me to think of appropriate counter-points. I'm sorry if it seems that I'm ragging on your posts, but this is my first time responding to something like this, trust me, I did not meant it to be ragging.

Thinking in math class, I came up with similar ideas of possible counters for Deoxys E - normals, and powerful pursuiters.

I'm not that great at damage calcs, I generally set them up wrong, but how much would TechBoost Lo Scizor and CB Stab Tyranitar Pursuit's do?

In terms of Normals, these are the ones in OU, there are none in BL.

Blissey
Togekiss
Snorlax
Porygon-Z

For the first three, though they may force Deoxy's-E out, I think that Taunt will cause them to be easily set up upon. Deoxy's E may even outstall a Blissey if it Taunts correctly, because, Blissey will run out of the attack move it carries. Togekiss might be a bit harder, but I doubt it would pack the punch without being able to Nasty Plot immediately. Snorlax also poses a threat having a nice base attack. Unfortunately, Snorlaxes really rely on curses. So Togekiss would probably be the best of those three.

The last one however I think poses the best threat to Deoxys-E. Especially, when using Download, Porygon-Z packs the power and sheer number of attacking moves to beat down Deoxys-E.

You are right, though, it would be interesting to test this pokemon to see what people really view as the most dangerous set. I don't think it would make it to OU, but, I'd be curious.

This brings me to Toxic Spikes. After thinking about it for a long hard time I came up with a good lead for a Deoxys-E team. It is this...

Infernape w/Focus Sash
-Fake Out
-Flamethrower
-Thunderpunch
-Earthquake

It has no other use than for a Deoxy's E team, and hits ALL POKEMON THAT USE TOXIC SPIKES SUPEREFFECTIVELY. It might have trouble with Cloyester and Omnastar though.

Basically, it acts like a regular lead, tries to kill things and die, unless the opponent is using a t-spiker. In which case, it fakes out, and then uses the appropriate move.

After you have finished off the T-Spiker, you bring Deoxys in. There are several uses to doing so. First, off, they cannot bring in another T-Spiker without dying to Infernape. Second, I found that Deoxys-E has another use - forcing people to reveal their primary sweeper early. In other words, you bring in Deoxys, Taunt, if you're lucky, switch with knowledge of their sweeper if you are not. And becaus they won't be able to setup (Taunt), it is much safer than other pokemon.

Deoxys-E I think would be set up early, in this manner.

EDIT: Oops, I forgot to mention recovery, Taunt prevents non Leftovers Recovery. And also, 50 base hp may not be alot, but the hp stat in general is at a higher base than the defensive stats. This is why if you are only walling physical threats and have 100 base hp and 100 base defense, you will want to dump the EVs in defense.

 

[IcyMan28]

Icy Man, sorry, I just didn't want to make the post even longer than it was going to by adding a quote :) But before I go, I just want to thank you for making such good points about Deoxys-E, it really challenges me to think of appropriate counter-points. I'm sorry if it seems that I'm ragging on your posts, but this is my first time responding to something like this, trust me, I did not meant it to be ragging.

On the contrary, I really do appreciate the feedback. This is also my first big discussion topic, so I'm kind of figuring things out too.

Thinking in math class, I came up with similar ideas of possible counters for Deoxys E - normals, and powerful pursuiters.

I'm not that great at damage calcs, I generally set them up wrong, but how much would TechBoost Lo Scizor and CB Stab Tyranitar Pursuit's do?

Depends on the EV spread, but I'll just go with max / max Bold for worst-case scenario.

-Adamant 252 Atk LO Tech Scizor using Pursuit on 252 / 252 Bold Deoxys-L (no switch): 394 Atk vs 460 Def & 304 HP (60 Base Power): 98 - 116 (32.24% - 38.16%)

-Adamant 252 Atk LO Tech Scizor using Pursuit on 252 / 252 Bold Deoxys-L (on a switch): 394 Atk vs 460 Def & 304 HP (80 Base Power): 128 - 152 (42.11% - 50.00%)

A hefty portion indeed from Scizor. I'm not sure if Technician still boosts the power of Pursuit on the switch, so someone who does know this would have to check it.

-Adamant 252 Atk CB Tyranitar using Pursuit on 252 / 252 Bold Deoxys-L (no switch): 604 Atk vs 460 Def & 304 HP (40 Base Power): 116 - 138 (38.16% - 45.39%)

-Adamant 252 Atk CB Tyranitar using Pursuit on 252 / 252 Bold Deoxys-L (switch): 604 Atk vs 460 Def & 304 HP (80 Base Power): 228 - 270 (75.00% - 88.82%)

Losing 75% minimum on the switch is nasty, especially since it will be coming back into Sand and a likely Stealth Rock (18% total).

In terms of Normals, these are the ones in OU, there are none in BL.

Blissey
Togekiss
Snorlax
Porygon-Z

For the first three, though they may force Deoxy's-E out, I think that Taunt will cause them to be easily set up upon. Deoxy's E may even outstall a Blissey if it Taunts correctly, because, Blissey will run out of the attack move it carries. Togekiss might be a bit harder, but I doubt it would pack the punch without being able to Nasty Plot immediately. Snorlax also poses a threat having a nice base attack. Unfortunately, Snorlaxes really rely on curses. So Togekiss would probably be the best of those three.

I completely forgot about Togekiss. However, defensive Togekiss has Thunder Wave (so it outspeeds and flinchhaxes you unless you also have Thunder Wave), and it runs Roost as well, so it boils down to who has more PP / Toxic. Nasty Plot Togekiss will also outspeed, so it flinches you until Taunt wears off, NP as you Taunt again, then rinse and repeat. Finally, the encore supporter runs near max speed and Timid - so it encores you once Taunt wears off (which it will thanks to flinchhax).

The last one however I think poses the best threat to Deoxys-E. Especially, when using Download, Porygon-Z packs the power and sheer number of attacking moves to beat down Deoxys-E.

Download is a bit of a risky option for P-Z, so if it doesn't get the sp.atk boost it may not win without Dark Pulse. Adaptability Scarf P-Z, though, can still pack a punch with Tri Attack, so P-Z is another option.

You are right, though, it would be interesting to test this pokemon to see what people really view as the most dangerous set. I don't think it would make it to OU, but, I'd be curious.

This brings me to Toxic Spikes. After thinking about it for a long hard time I came up with a good lead for a Deoxys-E team. It is this...

Infernape w/Focus Sash
-Fake Out
-Flamethrower
-Thunderpunch
-Earthquake

It has no other use than for a Deoxy's E team, and hits ALL POKEMON THAT USE TOXIC SPIKES SUPEREFFECTIVELY. It might have trouble with Cloyester and Omnastar though.

Basically, it acts like a regular lead, tries to kill things and die, unless the opponent is using a t-spiker. In which case, it fakes out, and then uses the appropriate move.

Sadly though, Tentacruel (the most common user of Toxic Spikes) will probably be able set up TSpikes as you come in, survive at least 1 Thunderpunch, Surf you away, and then MAYBE get down that second layer. Infernape is not really an option for "countering" pokemon (which is what this set attempts to do), especially the more defensive ones. Secondly, using Infernape like this really isn't the best way to use its sweeping potential.

After you have finished off the T-Spiker, you bring Deoxys in. There are several uses to doing so. First, off, they cannot bring in another T-Spiker without dying to Infernape. Second, I found that Deoxys-E has another use - forcing people to reveal their primary sweeper early. In other words, you bring in Deoxys, Taunt, if you're lucky, switch with knowledge of their sweeper if you are not. And becaus they won't be able to setup (Taunt), it is much safer than other pokemon.

Deoxys-E I think would be set up early, in this manner.

Oops, I forgot to mention recovery, Taunt prevents non Leftovers Recovery.

-I've noticed a few things while responding to this. Scizor and Tyranitar, which come up alot, are already high in usage, and should only go up should Latias become OU (which I'm almost entirely sure it will).

-Second, Taunt may stop setup sweepers, but it basically gives Choice users (which Deoxys-L has much more issues against) a free switch in. They aren't exactly uncommon either, if for no other reason than to absorb Trick.

-Speaking of Trick, that is a third option for entirely shutting down Deoxys-L.

-Finally, just as people suggest spinblocking to preserve Deoxys-L's entry hazards on the field, I can use the same argument to make sure that Toxic Spikes stay on the field (with the added advantage that the ghost-type spinblockers also get a SE STAB attack on Deoxys-L)

Oops, I forgot to mention recovery, Taunt prevents non Leftovers Recovery. And also, 50 base hp may not be alot, but the hp stat in general is at a higher base than the defensive stats. This is why if you are only walling physical threats and have 100 base hp and 100 base defense, you will want to dump the EVs in defense.

This is true. However, this is not the case for Deoxys-L. Like other high defense / low HP pokemon (Dusknoir, Shuckle), maximizing HP is the priority. The higher base defense will take care of the rest.

 

[blasphemy1]

Deoxys-D is a fantastic support pokemon, but by no means should be regarded to as "too overpowering" for OU. There are two things Deoxys-D does well, and that is support and acting as a specific counter for various offensive threats, as he has a similar movepool to Starmie. I think he is suffering moveslot syndrome, so its not like Deoxys-D would be destroying the metagame. Of course, Recover is a staple, and Taunt is up there as one of the best utility moves, so all of the Deoxys-D I would use would have those two moves, always.

Next, Reflect + Light Screen, Thunderbolt + Ice Beam, or Spikes + Stealth Rock. In the case of BoltBeam, I would just throw Psychic > Taunt to mitigate any MixApe weakness I had. BoltBeam can handle Salamence easily, and would require less speed and more defense so you could take their boosted attacks, since you don't care about Taunting them, just walls. For the Reflect + Light Screen set, I would most likely run a Timid / Jolly nature with 160 Speed EVs to reach 281, thus outpacing Adamant Lucario and some Salamence/Flygon. This would allow me to Taunt Lucario, thus preventing a SD, then proceed to set up a Reflect. As for the Spikes / Stealth Rock set, his base speed should suffice as he outspeeds most of the common walls(ie. Skarmory, Forretress, Hippowdon) and can easily Taunt them with his massive defenses. Honestly, this thing seems stallish, but it would actually help stop opposing stall teams by outrunning pretty much all of their walls and Taunting them to hell.

This might be broken, it may not, but it definitely deserves a test. This isn't a SD Rayquaza sweeping everything with Extremespeed we are talking about, just a fantastic support pokemon that would shift the metagame a little towards stall, instead of every team consisting of kamikazee leads.

 

[Relictivity]

Yes, I think we have limited the counters down to

Paraflinch Nasty Plot/Encore Kiss
Porygon-Z in general
Toxic Spikes
CB Users

I think the best counter would probably be Togekiss. However, it would not be able to come in on the turn Deoxys taunted. It would instead have to come in on a turn afterward, NP/Encore, and expect to beat a Deoxys with 1 Cosmic Power. Togekiss could also flinch stall till the Taunt was over, but that would be more risky.

Porygon-Z I think we have discussed pretty much to the point we both agree.

Toxic Spikes - I just think I noticed something (seriously, while building the infernape set, I did not notice this). Earthquake does SE damage to Tentacruel too. Can Tentacruel survive an earthquake (I think it can, but...) Also, if you equipped LO, could Tentacruel survive a fake out, followed by an earthquke together?

You're certainly right though that this is a VERY unorthodox way to use Infernape.

About C-Banders. Tyranitar seems to be what would be the major threat to this pokemon. Luckily, not all T-Tars run pursuit, but alot of them do (LOL Blissey, setup fodder). Scizor seems to be less of a problem, and not allowing it to SD might be worth disabling Deoxys for.

Trick also incounters the same problem with Taunt, but timing would stop this. I suppose if Deoxys wanted to, it could fit Agility on, but it means losing something important.

I am kind of against giving people more reasons to use Scizor though... but that isn't an adequate excuse for stopping a Deoxys test. I think the only real problem with Deoxys is that it requires specific pokemon to stop it, much like Salamence who requires (some may disagree with me on this) an ice sharder or a fast mixed tank with an ice move on it. But apart from that, a test would benefit this pokemon, mainly to see how others choose how to use it. I'm not making up my opinion now but I would change my vote to I'm not sure yet (I originally vote no) if I could.

Anayways, lets see what more we can come up with about this pokemon, new things keep popping up!

EDIT for blasphemy 1: He IS suffering from major moveslot syndrome to the extreme :) However, I disagree, I think it will make the metagame more offensive and centralized. People will have more reason to use Scizor and Tyranitar. Also, about your sets, they would be using Deoxys in a more support manner. However, Deoxys-E can also be used as stall.

EDIT for Icy Man: The Infernape is supposed to be a lead, and Deoxys is supposed to come in immediately after. That way you set up/reveal their sweeper early in the game.

 

[Luxormaniac]

I think that Deoxys-L was exactly what was in mind when the support definition was created for describing an uber, because it can set up a team to prepare for a sweep really nicely. Dual Screen + Taunt messes a lot of things up.

Imo that was for Deoxys-S(E), but Deoxys-D(L) would work well too.

something about Deoxys-E

Relicivity, Defense Deoxys isn't Deoxys-E (that's speed Deoxys.) We're talking about Deoxys-L(D). Just a minor suffix nitpick.

And i'm all for testing this. Although i never actually participate in suspect.

 

[Relictivity]

Thanks Luxormaniac for the correction. I'll see if I can renember to do so in future posts :) Sorry, the E,D,L,S, and A's get me confused. I think I will use D for defense, A for attack, and S for Speed from now on.

 

[Crystal]

Although I'd love to use Deoxys-D, I think it's got a little too much support ability for Standard.

Deoxys is a Pokemon with massive defenses, that can force its opponent to take it out with offense alone (Taunt/Agility), brings status to the table (T-Wave, Toxic), has instant, reliable recovery (Recover), has means to boost its defensive stats in all sorts of ways, including calm mind which compliments it's decent speed and fantastic offensive movepool, yes.

But the thing which I think pushes it over the top is its ability to spike. It is arguably the best spiker in the game, and 2 or 3 layers of spikes are something that can decide a battle.

If the only thing Deoxys could do was spike, or toxic stall, or whatever, it would have a good shot at standard. But the fact that it can do those things, as well as BulkyCM, Dual Screen, Taunt and the like while retaining fantastic defensive capacity seems a little overwhelming.

I'm not saying that it's got NO chance in standard, but it's easy to be skeptical by looking at it on paper.

I will admit that with the advent of Trick, non-taunt Deoxys can easily be crippled. (While Taunt Deoxys can be pursuited by the Metagame's general pursuiters... Scizor, Metagross, Tyranitar, Weavile, Heracross and Snorlax...)

 

[IcyMan28]

Yes, I think we have limited the counters down to

Paraflinch Nasty Plot/Encore Kiss
Porygon-Z in general
Toxic Spikes
CB Users Choice Band / Specs users.

I think the best counter would probably be Togekiss. However, it would not be able to come in on the turn Deoxys taunted. It would instead have to come in on a turn afterward, NP/Encore, and expect to beat a Deoxys with 1 Cosmic Power. Togekiss could also flinch stall till the Taunt was over, but that would be more risky.

Honestly though, I see little risk for Togekiss to flinch stall until the Taunt is over, as it is more than capable of taking a hit from Deoxys-L's pitiful offense and Roosting it off.

Porygon-Z I think we have discussed pretty much to the point we both agree.

Toxic Spikes - I just think I noticed something (seriously, while building the infernape set, I did not notice this). Earthquake does SE damage to Tentacruel too. Can Tentacruel survive an earthquake (I think it can, but...) Also, if you equipped LO, could Tentacruel survive a fake out, followed by an earthquke together?

It'd depend on the EVs, though I assume that even a -Sp.A Flamethrower would OHKO Forry. Assuming max attack, there is almost no way that Tentacruel is surviving both Fake Out + EQ. Problem is, if Infernape will be switching into Tenta (as it gets one layer of TSpikes), any good player will be wary of an Infernape switching into one of its best counters, meaning that they switch out, come in later, and get that second layer. I do admit that it could be effective in luring out and eliminating Tenta, though Forretress isn't going to EVER switch in voluntarily.

You're certainly right though that this is a VERY unorthodox way to use Infernape.

About C-Banders. Tyranitar seems to be what would be the major threat to this pokemon. Luckily, not all T-Tars run pursuit, but alot of them do (LOL Blissey, setup fodder). Scizor seems to be less of a problem, and not allowing it to SD might be worth disabling Deoxys for.

Sadly though, many Scizor run U-Turn on the CB set, or X-Scissor on the SD set - either of which would do severe damage even without the setup.

-252 Atk. Adamant LO Scizor using X-Scissor vs. 252 / 252 Bold Deoxys- L: 394 Atk vs 460 Def & 304 HP (80 Base Power): 192 - 228 (63.16% - 75.00%)


Taunt or no Taunt, Deoxys-L is losing to Scizor and Tyranitar (numbers 1 and 4, respectively).

Trick also incounters the same problem with Taunt, but timing would stop this. I suppose if Deoxys wanted to, it could fit Agility on, but it means losing something important.

I am kind of against giving people more reasons to use Scizor though... but that isn't an adequate excuse for stopping a Deoxys test. I think the only real problem with Deoxys is that it requires specific pokemon to stop it, much like Salamence who requires (some may disagree with me on this) an ice sharder or a fast mixed tank with an ice move on it. But apart from that, a test would benefit this pokemon, mainly to see how others choose how to use it. I'm not making up my opinion now but I would change my vote to I'm not sure yet (I originally vote no) if I could.

Every pokemon requires specific pokemon to stop it - that's why they are called counters. I do agree, though, that a test could be beneficial.

Anayways, lets see what more we can come up with about this pokemon, new things keep popping up!

EDIT for blasphemy 1: He IS suffering from major moveslot syndrome to the extreme :) However, I disagree, I think it will make the metagame more offensive and centralized. People will have more reason to use Scizor and Tyranitar. Also, about your sets, they would be using Deoxys in a more support manner. However, Deoxys-E can also be used as stall.

I disagree. Offensive pokemon are being used to their fullest offensive capabilities as it is; I think Deoxys-L would provide a nice check on some of the weaker ones. Further, centralization is not a characteristic of Uber (or at least it hasn't been defined in a way that it can be used as a significant characteristic).

EDIT for Icy Man: The Infernape is supposed to be a lead, and Deoxys is supposed to come in immediately after. That way you set up/reveal their sweeper early in the game.

But what business does this Infernape have as a lead? It can Fake Out some sashers, but then what? It doesn't set up SR, Encore, it doesn't provide a hard hit with Band / Specs, and it doesn't revenge with Scarf. It may be able to serve as a lure, but other than that it has little use.

Thoughts in bold.

Although I'd love to use Deoxys-D, I think it's got a little too much support ability for Standard.

Deoxys is a Pokemon with massive defenses, that can force its opponent to take it out with offense alone (Taunt/Agility), brings status to the table (T-Wave, Toxic), has instant, reliable recovery (Recover), has means to boost its defensive stats in all sorts of ways, including calm mind which compliments it's decent speed and fantastic offensive movepool, yes.

All of these things are true, to an extent. Massive defenses are actually a necessity to offset its pathetic HP, it itself is also adversely affected by Taunt and Toxic, its reliable recovery comes at the cost of very few resists (one of which is practically useless)and Pursuit weakness, defensive boosts are always prone to critical hits, and its fantastic offensive movepool is undermined because it is incapable of doing significant damage, failing to 2HKO 148 / 252 Bold Blissey even at +6 252 Sp.Atk Modest with Psychic.

But the thing which I think pushes it over the top is its ability to spike. It is arguably the best spiker in the game, and 2 or 3 layers of spikes are something that can decide a battle.

This is difficult to overlook. However, given the general lack of pokemon that can learn Spikes, this could also be looked at as a positive factor - its another choice to consider. Do you prefer Skarmory's equally high defense, better typing, and phazing ability to Deoxys-L's Pursuit weakness? Does Forretress's ability to Spin as well as Spike make it a better fit for your team? But then, you could always use Deoxys-L to avoid that nasty Magnezone that always seems to ruin your fun...

If the only thing Deoxys could do was spike, or toxic stall, or whatever, it would have a good shot at standard. But the fact that it can do those things, as well as BulkyCM, Dual Screen, Taunt and the like while retaining fantastic defensive capacity seems a little overwhelming.

Sadly, though, it isn't doing all of those things at once anytime soon. It will do what the team needs it to do, typically making sure that Recover stays in slot 1. Like I mentioned above, BulkyCM isn't doing much damage at all (Jirachi does it arguably better), and Dual Screen is a tactic that many other pokemon can pull off with great success as well.

I'm not saying that it's got NO chance in standard, but it's easy to be skeptical by looking at it on paper.

I will admit this. The fact that it has a chance at standard is enough to test whether or not it will be able to adapt.

I will admit that with the advent of Trick, non-taunt Deoxys can easily be crippled. (While Taunt Deoxys can be pursuited by the Metagame's general pursuiters... Scizor, Metagross, Tyranitar, Weavile, Heracross and Snorlax...)

A big dilemma here, since both strategies are both equally prevalent.

Again, thoughts in bold.

 

[Brawley]

Using defense tiers this is how deoxys-d ranks up.
Regirock Tier 123
Regirock 123.65 117.21 127.06 121.68
Steelix 123.29 113.16 126.76 118.59

Giratina Tier 122
Giratina 122.86 122.86 126.41 126.41

Cresselia Tier 121
Aggron 121.92 112.14 125.59 117.82
Rhyperior 121.78 114.36 125.45 119.77
Groudon 121.58 117.59 125.26 122.05
Cresselia 121.32 122.06 125.08 125.69
Arceus 121.32 121.32 125.08 125.08
Lugia 121.25 122.83 125 126.32
Slaking 121.21 117.52 125.1 122.3

Hippowdon Tier 120
Registeel 120.91 120.91 124.71 124.71
Relicanth 120.89 114.82 124.7 119.98
Tangrowth 120.53 112.73 124.4 118.5
Hippowdon 120.49 116.15 124.38 121.01
Bastiodon 120.48 118.64 124.39 122.84
Rhydon 120.46 112.23 124.35 118.22
Cloyster 120.3 108.29 124.29 114.98
Dialga 120.16 118.52 124.09 122.78

Skarmory Tier 119
Regigigas 119.97 119.97 123.96 123.96
Forretress 119.91 112.51 123.88 118.12
Suicune 119.77 119.77 123.78 123.78
Shuckle 119.66 119.66 124.05 124.05
Golem 119.58 113.51 123.6 118.88
Metagross 119.58 116.28 123.6 120.96
Torkoal 119.55 113.41 123.58 118.74
Donphan 119.52 113.54 123.56 118.98
Tyranitar 119.37 118.52 123.46 122.78
Uxie 119.23 119.23 123.31 123.31
Deoxys Defense 119.19 119.19 123.33 123.33
Skarmory 119.17 113.03 123.27 118.43
Probopass 119.1 119.42 123.22 123.49
Slowbro 119.06 116.25 123.19 121.01
Umbreon 119.06 120.58 123.19 124.43



Now for Special Defense

Chansey Tier 125
Chansey 107.98 125.57 118.02 128.95

Regice Tier 123
Regice 117.21 123.65 121.68 127.06

Snorelax Tier 122
Giratina 122.86 122.86 126.41 126.41
Lugia 121.25 122.83 125 126.32
Ho-oh 117.95 122.83 122.36 126.32
Snorlax 117.99 122.53 122.71 126.18
Cresselia 121.32 122.06 125.08 125.69

Arceus Tier 121
Kyogre 117.59 121.58 122.05 125.26
Arceus 121.32 121.32 125.08 125.08

Umbreon tier 120
Registeel 120.91 120.91 124.71 124.71
Umbreon 119.06 120.58 123.19 124.43
Milotic 116.15 120.22 120.93 124.14

Shuckle Tier 119
Regigigas 119.97 119.97 123.96 123.96
Articuno 117.88 119.9 122.24 123.87
Suicune 119.77 119.77 123.78 123.78
Lapras 118.27 119.76 122.72 123.87
Vaporeon 115.87 119.76 120.96 123.87
Shuckle 119.66 119.66 124.05 124.05
Latias 116.28 119.58 120.96 123.6
Palkia 117.88 119.52 122.24 123.56
Probopass 119.1 119.42 123.22 123.49
Uxie 119.23 119.23 123.31 123.31
Deoxys Defense 119.19 119.19 123.33 123.33
Mantine 113.03 119.17 118.43 123.27

 

[kd24]

funny enough, from your stats, uxie and deoxys-d are almost exactly equal.

 

[Relictivity]

I agree with you on Togekiss to the fullest extent. It would be better for it to flinch-hax till Taunt wears off. However, if Deoxys decides to switch out for say, Zapdos, Togekiss will be forced to switch out (but it probalby would anyways) because of an inablity to roost.

About Infernape, this one is supposed to be used as a lead because it will stop people from getting T-Spikes down early. Fake Out is supposed to kill Sashes on T-Spikers (not other pokemon though it could be used so). Deoxys-D is supposed to switch in immediately after. This means that only 1 set at max of T-Spikes would be laid down. This could be used for further Team Setup, as it is weak poison, but I'll explain that later in the post.

Then, the opponent will either get set up upon, or reveal their sweeper/Togekiss to kill Deoxys as it Taunts. If it were Togekiss, Tyranitar, or Scizor, Deoxys would be switching regardless. If it is something else, setup bait! Note that Togekiss cannot NP anymore since it was Taunted on switch in.

I'll ask about the Pursuit/Technitian problem in simple questions/answers thread.

In terms of centralization, I just meant that most prefer a less centralized metagame to a more centralized metagame, it isn't a main reason. However, if Deoxys can stop DD Mixmence from ripping teams easily the way it does, it might be something to think about.

Now, about team setup. The main problem with Deoxys is T-Spikes. So I suggest a team like this.

Infernape(Lead)
Deoxys-D (switch in once killed T-Spike lead)
Heracross (with Swords Dance
Zapdos (Heat Wave and Rest Talk variant)
Pokemon x
Pokmon y

Infernape kills the T-Spike Leads, if necessary
Deoxys switches in to provide insight/setup for the team and Taunts
If T-tar, Heracross, If Scizor, Heracross or Zapdos, If Togekiss, Zapdos, If Porygon-Z, ??? (I have to think about this one)
Also note that Deoxys-E would actually benefit from weak poison since it could not be statused after taunt wears off.
Heracross also enjoys Mild poisoning, and Zapdos is immune.

My reasoning: If you see any errors, please tell me.
I know Scizor can run Aerial Ace, but I don't think many do anymore, so Heracross is safe. And Zapdos forces it out.
Heracross can SD while T-tar switchs (hopefully).

Also, for Brawley, Deoxys would not be used as a normal pokemon, stall or support. It' plethora of support type moves allow it to not be KO'd except by those mentioned in the posts, despite it's defensive tier rating. Why this is, I don't know but so far very few pokemon can solidly 2HKO it.

 

[Luxormaniac]

I think that Hera is a bit slow for SD, and Scarfing it would serve it better. Also, running Tentacreul as X or Y would backup Infernape as a Tspikes dealerwither, and possibly free up the lead. It could also let Hera switch into Tspikes to abuse Guts and then clean them up with Tenta.
You could also even remove the Ape lead completely, since Tenta is a more surefire cure. Tspikes isn't even very common, used vastly less than spikes which is used infinitely less than Stealth Rock. So overall Tspikes don't seem hugely threatening, and are quite easy to deal with.

 

[Relictivity]

I think that Hera is a bit slow for SD, and Scarfing it would serve it better. Also, running Tentacreul as X or Y would backup Infernape as a Tspikes dealerwither, and possibly free up the lead. It could also let Hera switch into Tspikes to abuse Guts and then clean them up with Tenta.
You could also even remove the Ape lead completely, since Tenta is a more surefire cure. Tspikes isn't even very common, used vastly less than spikes which is used infinitely less than Stealth Rock. So overall Tspikes don't seem hugely threatening, and are quite easy to deal with.

You could be very right about Heracross. However, as it would mainly be a switch in to T-Tar and Scizor, and if it is T-Tar, would likely gain the SD while T-Tar switches. Scizor runs bug, fighting, and dark moves (Aerial Ace is uncommon, not even listed in December stats) so Hera would probably get the SD as well. Still, if someone switches in something with a flying move (Togekiss I'm thinking), I'll lose the bonus. So what would you replace it with? Possibly Hariyama.

You're right, I could use Tentacruel but it can prove to be setup upon by things like Gyarados, which is why I am hesitant about using it. Of course, both could be put on the team.

Mainly this team is hypothetically created to see whether Deoxys could be uber when properly supported, but I think you already know that after reading our posts. However, the more I think about it, the less uber it seems. It will have to be tested to know for sure.

EDIT for Icy Man: Cards of the Heart just told me Scizor will not get the technitian boost on pursuit, as the doubling happens before that. :(

 

[MapleSandwich]

Another Pokémon I would suggest for the hypothetical team is something that can absorb Toxic Spikes and spit them out as well, such as Roserade or Tentacruel. In case Infernape fails, they can still bring respite...and TSpikes is a pretty brutal entry hazard against a stallwall like Deoxys-D. For the last slot, some sort of cleanup sweeper like Scizor might be in order, probably the LO SD set.

 

[IcyMan28]

I agree with you on Togekiss to the fullest extent. It would be better for it to flinch-hax till Taunt wears off. However, if Deoxys decides to switch out for say, Zapdos, Togekiss will be forced to switch out (but it probalby would anyways) because of an inablity to roost.

I can't argue against this, since switching is applicable in all situations. However, if you have forced it to switch, you have "countered" it, by definition.

About Infernape, this one is supposed to be used as a lead because it will stop people from getting T-Spikes down early. Fake Out is supposed to kill Sashes on T-Spikers (not other pokemon though it could be used so). Deoxys-D is supposed to switch in immediately after. This means that only 1 set at max of T-Spikes would be laid down. This could be used for further Team Setup, as it is weak poison, but I'll explain that later in the post.

The current suicide lead Ape does that just as effectively. The only TSpikes lead I can think of atm is Roserade, who will die to Fake Out + Flamethrower, and Tenta leads are rare. Forry will switch in all cases.

Then, the opponent will either get set up upon, or reveal their sweeper/Togekiss to kill Deoxys as it Taunts. If it were Togekiss, Tyranitar, or Scizor, Deoxys would be switching regardless. If it is something else, setup bait! Note that Togekiss cannot NP anymore since it was Taunted on switch in.

I'll ask about the Pursuit/Technitian problem in simple questions/answers thread.

In terms of centralization, I just meant that most prefer a less centralized metagame to a more centralized metagame, it isn't a main reason. However, if Deoxys can stop DD Mixmence from ripping teams easily the way it does, it might be something to think about.

This is true, although we don't know whether or not Deoxys-L would centralize the metagame more or less. With Deoxys-L to bring fully offensive teams to a screeching halt (obviously coming in on a weaker attack), it opens up the ability for both balanced and stall teams to have a higher chance. Not even a suspect test would be able to immediately verify this, since Deoxys-L's level of centralization would only become apparent after several months.

Now, about team setup. The main problem with Deoxys is T-Spikes. So I suggest a team like this.

Infernape(Lead)
Deoxys-D (switch in once killed T-Spike lead)
Heracross (with Swords Dance
Zapdos (Heat Wave and Rest Talk variant)
Pokemon x
Pokmon y

Infernape kills the T-Spike Leads, if necessary
Deoxys switches in to provide insight/setup for the team and Taunts
If T-tar, Heracross, If Scizor, Heracross or Zapdos, If Togekiss, Zapdos, If Porygon-Z, ??? (I have to think about this one)
Also note that Deoxys-E would actually benefit from weak poison since it could not be statused after taunt wears off.
Heracross also enjoys Mild poisoning, and Zapdos is immune.

Having a team that is resistant to passive damage in general is a good teambuilding strategy in all scenarios; this could be done with things like Hippowdon or something as well. Alternatively, a grounded poison / spinner could be used to assist Deoxys-L, too. This is more teambuilding theory than anything else, and teambuilding in general involves covering up each pokemon's weaknesses with a complementary process. This does not increase nor decrease the viability of Deoxys-L.

My reasoning: If you see any errors, please tell me.
I know Scizor can run Aerial Ace, but I don't think many do anymore, so Heracross is safe. And Zapdos forces it out.
Heracross can SD while T-tar switchs (hopefully).

Thoughts in bold.

I think that Hera is a bit slow for SD, and Scarfing it would serve it better. Also, running Tentacreul as X or Y would backup Infernape as a Tspikes dealerwither, and possibly free up the lead. It could also let Hera switch into Tspikes to abuse Guts and then clean them up with Tenta.
You could also even remove the Ape lead completely, since Tenta is a more surefire cure. Tspikes isn't even very common, used vastly less than spikes which is used infinitely less than Stealth Rock. So overall Tspikes don't seem hugely threatening, and are quite easy to deal with.

Tentacruel is definately a viable option for removing TSpikes. I disagree, however, that they are "quite" easy to deal with. Grounded poisons in OU are few (Tentacruel is the only one, in fact), and the only other options are to remove the TSpikes with a spinner. Donphan won't like being poisoned by the spikes as it comes in to spin them out, especially at the risk of Tentacruel's STAB Surf. Starmie is a poor choice for supporting Deoxys-L with Spin, since both have a Pursuit weakness. Finally, Magnezone traps and kills Shed Shell-less Forretress as it spins, leaving you free to TSpikes again unhindered.

Then of course, there is the move Toxic itself.

You could be very right about Heracross. However, as it would mainly be a switch in to T-Tar and Scizor, and if it is T-Tar, would likely gain the SD while T-Tar switches. Scizor runs bug, fighting, and dark moves (Aerial Ace is uncommon, not even listed in December stats) so Hera would probably get the SD as well. Still, if someone switches in something with a flying move (Togekiss I'm thinking), I'll lose the bonus. So what would you replace it with? Possibly Hariyama.

You're right, I could use Tentacruel but it can prove to be setup upon by things like Gyarados, which is why I am hesitant about using it. Of course, both could be put on the team.

Mainly this team is hypothetically created to see whether Deoxys could be uber when properly supported, but I think you already know that after reading our posts. However, the more I think about it, the less uber it seems. It will have to be tested to know for sure.

This is a huge statement you have made here. If you have run out of ways to prove that Deoxys-L is Uber on its own, you may very well have lost the argument. Toxicroak can become Uber when properly supported with Dual Screens, a passed speed boost, and rain support, but Toxicroak isn't Uber itself - the support just allowed it to sweep. Likewise, if Deoxys-L cannot meet any of the Uber Characteristics on its own, it is not Uber.

EDIT for Icy Man: Cards of the Heart just told me Scizor will not get the technitian boost on pursuit, as the doubling happens before that. :

I thought so. The calculations still stand there; I took this into account. (

Thoughts are in bold. I appreciate the feedback.

 

[Crafty Veteran]

Not in discussion simply because longer games and more Stall Teams will have Deoxys-D. Access to Recover which is something massive defense low HP users don't have. Access to both spikes and SR, and could lay it down easily. It could be used best at Stall Teams, but when it decides to attack, it also gets access to Calm Mind. Calm Mind set already sounds deadly paired with Recover.

 

[IcyMan28]

Not in discussion simply because longer games and more Stall Teams will have Deoxys-D. Access to Recover which is something massive defense low HP users don't have. Access to both spikes and SR, and could lay it down easily. It could be used best at Stall Teams, but when it decides to attack, it also gets access to Calm Mind. Calm Mind set already sounds deadly paired with Recover.

I'm not sure if you've read through the thread, but I've pointed out the following about a CM set on Deoxys-L:

+6 252 Sp.A Modest Deoxys-L using Psychic on 148 / 4 Bold Blissey: 1048 Atk vs 307 Def & 688 HP (90 Base Power): 331 - 390 (48.11% - 56.69%)

The lack of power is disappointing. On average, it does 52.03%. It falls just short of 2HKOing neutral, 4 Sp.D Blissey. Blissey stalls with Wish and Toxic. Also, by going Modest, its untouched defenses are even more compromised.

+6 252 Sp.A Modest Deoxys-L using Thunderbolt on 60 / 0 Adamant Tyranitar: 1048 Atk vs 354 Def & 356 HP (95 Base Power): 202 - 238 (56.74% - 66.85%)

This is all that Deoxys-L can muster; if it isn't higher than +4 Sp.A, it fails to 2HKO. And honestly, if they have Tyranitar waiting in the wings, Deoxys-L will get little more +1, maybe +2.

Deoxys-L is no SubCM Jirachi.

EDIT: I forgot to mention this in my previous post, but it still applies. Defensive tiering places Deoxys-L in the lowest tier when it comes to physical defense, and 5th from the bottom at that. It fares even worse when it comes to sp.def, falling in at 2nd to last from the bottom, period. See Brawley's post.

EDIT2: I'm out for now, but keep going anyways. I'll be back tomorrow.

 

[Crafty Veteran]

You haven't convinced me enough. Offensive CM Users would most likely switch out on a Blissey. ToxicStall Set, Blissey is no match for Deoxys-D. Like I said before, being a versatile wall is too cheap in OU. I'm sure people will run Shadow Ball / Hp [Fighting] in their CM sets to handle Tyranitar and Blissey, it will hit everything neutrally.

 

[Relictivity]

Icy Man, I just wanted to say thank you for providing such a great debate for me. This will probalby be one of my last posts in this thread, but who knows.

Indeed you are right, I have run nearly out of arguments for Deoxys-D not being uber. However I have one more argument (admittedly, it is last resort, and I am kind of ashamed of that, but it is probably the most important argument against Deoxys) Here it is, from Jumpman's post.

Support Characteristic
A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it can consistently set up a situation in which it makes it substantially easier for other pokemon to sweep.

Note that it meets this characteristic in a different way then other support pokemon.

In my opinion Deoxys makes it substantially easier for other pokemon to sweep, that is why I made a fake team. I purposely set it up so that this team could counter what was thrown at Deoxys-D and hit back MUCH harder.

As you can see with the team, it is appropriately designed to counter Toxic Spikes. Once those are out of the way, just Normals and Choicers bar Deoxy's way.

Normals, as we have discussed, have their problems. Taunt disables them all to a certain degree and makes the incoming pokemon much easier to stop.

Choice Users are easy to counter because they are choice users, I think we have gone over that.

For my problem with Deoxys, I want to pay attention to the facts that in order to be uber it has to consistently set up, for other pokemon, to sweep. (those are seperated by commas as to prove the seperate elements.

Taunt, first of all, is what allows it to set up. It sets the cycle of Force Me Out, or Die. That is set up.

With the above paragraphs, and previous posts, I think we can all agree that it can consistently allow set up, for other pokemon like Zapdos, Heracross, Haryiama, It also can occasionally setup for itself.

Finally, can the pokemon it sets up for sweep. Yes. That is why I specifically picked SD Heracross, a pokemon that might have had a harder time switching in to take advantage of it. Of course, almost any setuper could work well.

You also say (forgive me for not putting this in quotes, I'm saving space) Toxicroak can become Uber when properly supported with Dual Screens, a passed speed boost, and rain support, but Toxicroak isn't Uber itself - the support just allowed it to sweep.

However, I would like to compare the situation to a pokemon, we banned Uber before. It is often considered a mistake, but there is one specific issue that allows it to become uber, supplied by another pokemon. The Uber I am talking about is Garchomp, with Sand Veil. In my personal opinion, Sand Veil is alot of the reason Garchomp is uber. Too many good things attatached to one pokemon made it too much for the metagame to handle. Furthermore, Sand Stream was EASY to set up. On the other hand, setting up Dual Screen, a Speed Boost, and Rain Dance at the same time; that would be difficult! Deoxys E on the other hand provides easy setup, as I have shown you. In truth, it is how easily it can manipulate these other pokemon that makes it uber.

Also, Taunt clearly is the differer between this and other wall/stall/supporters. Sure, others learn Taunt, but none are used in this drastic unusual way, not even Cressalia. Therefore, it makes no difference that Deoxys is low in the Defensive tiers; it is able to work better, which matters more.

Overall, I think in certain ways it is uber, in others, not; I can see things running both ways, and could see Deoxys-E decentralizing certain threats, while centralizing others. Ultimately, I think it is a very useful and underestimated pokemon, even in ubers, simply because how easily it sets up.

Whether this is my last post here or not (but I think it won't be), I have enjoyed discussing this topic with you. Thanks for that.

EDIT for Crafty Veteran: Unfortuanately, Deoxys still cannot gain enought power to bcome an offensive threat. Also in mention is the offensive threats me and Icy Man have been discussing. We are discussin a different Deoxy's set, but similar counters apply. And Pursuit CB T-tar will always be the bain of Deoxys-D. And also, a versatile wall, is in my opinion, is what OU DEFINATELY needs, for all the powerful mixed attackers. Oh, also, If T-tar switched in, it still wouldn't get huge damage from a +1 HP Fighting. It's pursuit will also do upwards 75% without taking Sandstream into account. Ultimately, if the metagame had been less offensive, maybe, but today, it probably would not work :(

 

[Crafty Veteran]

And Pursuit CB T-tar will always be the bain of Deoxys-D. And also, a versatile wall, is in my opinion, is what OU DEFINATELY needs, for all the powerful mixed attackers. Oh, also, If T-tar switched in, it still wouldn't get huge damage from a +1 HP Fighting. It's pursuit will also do upwards 75%

A bain? When it switches out I guess. CB Versions could be a problem, but without CB Pursuit does not do 75% of it's life. The fact is after one CM and a Tyranitar switch in, you'll guarantee yourself with 2HKO depending on EV spread with HP [Fighting]. Besides Tyranitar handles all Psychic types and Ghost types nicely. I'm not saying Deoxys-D is unstoppable, it just too cheap once it's counter is gone to say the least.

 

[Caelum]

funny enough, from your stats, uxie and deoxys-d are almost exactly equal.

You're correct but I just wanted to point out to other people that pure stats aren't everything when it comes to walling. The main difference is Deoxys-l's access to Recover which is quite huge in its walling potential, it makes it leaps and bounds above Uxie when it comes to walling. It's like how Celebi is a better physical wall than Tangrowth because of Recover, despite Tangrowth's better physical defenses.

I'm not saying Deoxys-D is unstoppable, it just too cheap once it's counter is gone to say the least.

Doesn't every useful Pokemon become difficult to deal with (which you apparently equate with "cheap") once its counters are gone? That's true of almost every OU Pokemon.


Also, I honestly do not understand how people can actually think Deoxys-l is an offensive threat. Go try out Calm Mind Cresselia and see just how weak offensively it is (even at +6 amazingly enough), that should give you a very good idea of how pathetic Deoxys-l is as an offensive threat.