deoxys-d is a suicide hazard layer on HO teams, you dont switch out on the u-turn, you sack it for a free switchin and/or another layer of hazards. If you are switching out your deoxys-D against uturners and losing momentum, the problem is the way you play, and not deoxys-D
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Deoxys-D
- Thread starter gvmgvm40
- Start date
deoxys-d is a suicide hazard layer on HO teams, you dont switch out on the u-turn, you sack it for a free switchin and/or another layer of hazards. If you are switching out your deoxys-D against uturners and losing momentum, the problem is the way you play, and not deoxys-D
i don't think you know what deoxys-D hyper offense is. it's 5 attackers plus a suicide lead deoxys (emphasis on suicide lead - always a lead) that intends to a) set up hazards fast and b) lure/KO spinners with HP fire and psycho boost. the set in question is even on deoxys-D's smogon analysis. it should look something like
deoxys-D @ fire gem
252 satk / 252 speed timid
hp fire
psycho boost
sr
spikes
you don't "send out" deoxys d to intercept opposing switches like you would on a balanced or stall team. you ALWAYS lead with it, start throwing down hazards and force your opponent to go into a fast taunter/spinner or attacker to pressure them into breaking deoxys-D or disrupting its hazards. you blow up the spinner/attacker with psycho boost to the best of your ability (forry dies to hp fire, starmie dies to thunderbolt, everybody else dies to psycho boost) and sack deoxys-D into your sweeper and now that you've stacked hazards you begin the beatdown. if the opponent's spinner stays in and faces the attack there is no way they can take another hit and they won't have time to spin away your hazards; if they run away your hazards stick and now every mon is coming in with a quarter of its health gone waiting to be 2hko'd by the other 5 guys on the team.
in other words, deoxys-D is not being played as a wall as it would be on bulky offense teams, not on HO. you don't waste time with sissy shit like recover and taunt on this set. it's about giving up a single mon on your team right off the bat to ensure that the rest of your team can take down the opponent more easily and hopefully overwhelm them with raw offensive pressure.
You mentioned thunderbolt to handle starmie, but I don't see it in that moveset.
I believe it is sometimes used over HP Fire if you want to deal with Starmie more than Forrtress as you want to deal with Spinners before they Spin. It hits most Taunters harder to I believe.
People using Deo-D HO teams shouldn't use Deo-D as a suicide lead. OK, some of the time that is its best use. But I find that in my team I rarely send deoxys out first. Against other HO teams you should always try and gain momentum first as you can potentially finish the game in a few turns, if you lose momentum you bring Deoxys in to sponge a hit, get as many hazards up as possible before sacking Deoxys to regain momentum. Against full stall Deoxys is one of your biggest assets. With taunt Deoxys finds many opportunities to set up and when your opponent finds it difficult to switch their team is effectively ruined. However Deoxys must be kept alive until you can get rid of their spinner. Those are just 2 examples, one in which deoxys is not a lead and one where you shouldn't sack it. Of course it really depends on your opponents team (for example if they have an espeon/xatu then you're an idiot if you lead with Deoxys) but I find that Deo-D's use should be more thought out because having hazards up can really change the outcome of the match for a HO team and using it as a suicide lead, more often than not, is completely wasteful. Letting a scizor kill you with u-turn just so that you can get stealth rock and momentum is a complete waste as well. Also, taunt is a must unless you want dragonites and volcaronas using you as set up bait (okay volcaronas can get one quiver dance off but if your team can't deal with a volcarona with +1s it's likely to fail anyway).
Anyway, I was wondering what you all thought about Genesect's impact on Deo-D. Obviously it's going to be detrimental giving it can OHKO it or U-turn (not sure if this will KO but it will do a chunk of damage). Though this may sound weird I've been making sure to put 4 evs in defense to make sure Genesects get a SpA boost. This may seem stupid but it does actually make some people consider whether u-turn is the best move. If they get an Atk boost they will almost always u-turn, which is one of the worst things for HO teams. Whereas if they go for a different attack you can swicth to something that won't mind taking the hit and keep momentum. If they use Rock Polish I would be in trouble but I have yet to encounter one of those and I'm hoping their existence is simply a myth.
Anyway, I was wondering what you all thought about Genesect's impact on Deo-D. Obviously it's going to be detrimental giving it can OHKO it or U-turn (not sure if this will KO but it will do a chunk of damage). Though this may sound weird I've been making sure to put 4 evs in defense to make sure Genesects get a SpA boost. This may seem stupid but it does actually make some people consider whether u-turn is the best move. If they get an Atk boost they will almost always u-turn, which is one of the worst things for HO teams. Whereas if they go for a different attack you can swicth to something that won't mind taking the hit and keep momentum. If they use Rock Polish I would be in trouble but I have yet to encounter one of those and I'm hoping their existence is simply a myth.
It will most definitely mot ko, and fails to deal over 50%vif gene has a special attack boost. This means that if you u-turn on the first turn, deoxys can set up sr and then proceed to deal with anything else with a combination of attacks and hazards. Unless leading with magic bounce espeon, you can't prevent those hazards
Also, sacrificing deoxys for SR is seen as a good trade, let alone sr and momentum. That way you can bring in a sweeper that can combat whatever the scizor user decides to send out and will enjoy having free hazards.
Also, sacrificing deoxys for SR is seen as a good trade, let alone sr and momentum. That way you can bring in a sweeper that can combat whatever the scizor user decides to send out and will enjoy having free hazards.
OK, maybe I didn't make my point clear. While SR and momentum is great, it's stupid to assume that that's a good trade for Deo-D. If that's all you want you should be using azelf instead as it outspeeds a lot more and can use u-turn for momentum as well. It also dies easier so you can get momentum from a vaster variety of foes. Deoxys-D offers a lot more to the team, I feel, and by sacrificing it early on for a slight, temporary advantage you're completely wasting it.
was just too lazy to slash it in
and yeah, obviously use your judgment. what i wrote would be the standard way to use a suicide lead - you lead with it - but it's still a slot on your team and you have to sack it wisely.
and unfortunately for hyper offense, yeah rock polish genesect exists 8D
ok, this is a decent reminder for me to finish up the analysis, lol.
Tbolt is really outclassed by Thunder. Thunderbolt in no way handles Starmie, while LO Thunder is a clean cut OHKO. Life Orb is the item you should use on all HO sets, and Modest, because you lose the ability to OHKO Scizor with HP Fire if you run Timid.
But, some of you are missing the point of the Offensive set. It's not supposed to sweep, and not even attack- it's main purpose is to draw in spinners and then KO them. After that, it's all support. Don't be fooled- just because it can hit averagely hard doesn't mean it's what it should do. Unless Deoxys-D gets some kind of super offense ability in the future, its sets will all be based off of support. It's what it does best.
This is what Offensive sets should look like:
Deoxys-D @ Life Orb
4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest nature
~Spikes
~Stealth Rock / Taunt
~HP Fire / Thunder
~Psycho Boost
The gems aren't needed. Notable pokemon that are KO'ed:
Tentacruel is OHKO'ed by Psycho Boost
Forretress is OHKO'ed by HP Fire
Scizor has a 50% chance of being OHKO'ed by HP Fire
Starmie is OHKO'ed by Thunder
Tbolt is really outclassed by Thunder. Thunderbolt in no way handles Starmie, while LO Thunder is a clean cut OHKO. Life Orb is the item you should use on all HO sets, and Modest, because you lose the ability to OHKO Scizor with HP Fire if you run Timid.
But, some of you are missing the point of the Offensive set. It's not supposed to sweep, and not even attack- it's main purpose is to draw in spinners and then KO them. After that, it's all support. Don't be fooled- just because it can hit averagely hard doesn't mean it's what it should do. Unless Deoxys-D gets some kind of super offense ability in the future, its sets will all be based off of support. It's what it does best.
This is what Offensive sets should look like:
Deoxys-D @ Life Orb
4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest nature
~Spikes
~Stealth Rock / Taunt
~HP Fire / Thunder
~Psycho Boost
The gems aren't needed. Notable pokemon that are KO'ed:
Tentacruel is OHKO'ed by Psycho Boost
Forretress is OHKO'ed by HP Fire
Scizor has a 50% chance of being OHKO'ed by HP Fire
Starmie is OHKO'ed by Thunder
Definitely not as effective as it used to be. Genesect makes it impossible to lead with this thing. Especially those with Attack investment or Banded variants. Rock Polish sets are potentially even more annoying.
Genesect is easy enough to work around, but it makes it much more difficult for Deoxys to prevent opposing Pokemon from laying down hazards.
Genesect is easy enough to work around, but it makes it much more difficult for Deoxys to prevent opposing Pokemon from laying down hazards.
I am generally regarded as the most one dimensional hyper offensive player that ever made good in anything.
U-turn in and of itself is not momentum at all. The the whole point of using Deoxys-d is to have a suicide lead that halts your opponents momentum by dying and allowing you to switch in for free. U-turn and Volt Switch are good because the pokemon using those moves are threatening in and of themselves. They force things to switch out, and use those moves to constantly stay ahead of the opponents walls. When the opponent sacrifices something you lose all your momentum.
Genesect does not prevent you from leading Deoxys-D at all. Use a Tanga Berry/ put your 4 leftover EVs in Defense. Download will give Genesect a Special Attack boost, and U-turn will do little. Bug Buzz will KO, but that means they give up a coverage move.
Of course a faster STAB U-turn is going to hurt Deoxys-D's viability, but it is still a unique pokemon in OU. No one can do what it does, and hyper offense cannot afford to NOT use it.
Genesect is a very bad pokemon for hyper offense when you look at the metagame holistically, moving away from just the Deoxys-D vs Genesect scenarios. It can revenge kill almost everything with a choice scarf and it's coverage and power make it difficult to play around even if it didn't have u-turn. It's steel type makes it really hard to kill with priority moves too. Hyper offense has to take extreme counter measures to get through it and it's just generally more difficult to run now than it was in BW1. There are a few pokemon that can take advantage of Genesects popularity, such as Terrakion and Rotom-W, but other main stays such as Dragonite and Latios really hate Genesect running around.
One of the great qualities of deo d is that it is reasonably fast and hard to kill (u turn sorta hurts but like the guy above said put your evs in def and genesect does around 50%) and so it can get up hazards which make the rest of the team much more threatening. After it dies it always leaves sr and spikes + the chance to switch in the sweeper of your choice.