Deoxys - E : Broadening of the metagame?

[Lyfsaho]

I know there is a vote going on in another thread, and by no means do I wish this to replace the other one, I wish rather to complement it. Keep voting on the issue on the other one- I only create this because there has been some drifting into less relevant issues on the matter recently and I want to get the discussion back on track.

Now, if allowed in OU permanently, the most common Deoxys-E set will predictably quickly become as follows:

Deoxys @ Life Orb
Rash / Mild - Pressure
252 Atk, 212 Sp.Atk, 40 Speed
- Superpower
- Ice Beam
- Thunderbolt
- Shadow Ball / Psycho Boost

With this set, Deoxys outspeeds everything in the metagame bar Scarfchomp, Scarfgar and Ninjask. This also takes care of Blissey = With a minimum of 70.03% - 82.35% damage (who still runs 252 HP / 252 Def Bold Bliss?) by a Superpower - which thus becomes non-negotiable.
Ice Beam is for all the obvious coverage, Tbolt needs to be there for skarmory, gyarados, and all bulky waters (Milo, Slowbro, Vaporeon) and the last move... Psycho Boost will leave a massive dent in anything non-resistant, but without Shadow Ball Cresselia will completely wall you, and with it she won't be able to switch in on you repeatedly: Shadow Ball from this baby does 31.76% - 37.39% to Standard Sleep Talking Cress; Add to that its Sp.Def drop chance, Sandstorm, and SR, and she's in trouble. If you can handle Cress with ease otherwise, Psycho Boost would be best.

A pokemon's tier can be determined solidly by the number of counters it has without overcentralizing the metagame.

Now, looking at this set, the counters available to us in the metagame are as follows:

Cresselia
Jirachi
Bronzong
Spiritomb
Metagross.

These, at the moment, are all general and effective counters.
What has to be mentioned here is that Metagross cannot stand up to a version of Deoxys with HP Fire, and that Cresselia cannot afford repeated switch-ins on Shadow Ball without having to rest and thus losing her ability as an reliable counter. Also, if Deoxys is carrying Taunt then Cresselia becomes much less efficient as a counter.

Also, what isn't a direct counter but can work for revenge killing purposes is the standard CBDugtrio, which will do 86.72% - 102.07% with Sucker Punch unless Deoxys is carrying a non-offensive move. However, this leaves you extremely vulnerable for set-ups to follow, and it mostly won't KO unless SR, spikes, or sandstorm is in play, which will lead to a double knockout, courtesy of life orbed Ice Beam.

So the question, on a simple level, boils down to this: Will we all have to start carrying Jirachi, Bronzong or Spiritomb on every team?

Thoughts? ^-^

 

[jujuomi]

Lanturn, which was showed to us by bologo, resists boltbeam/take little damage from superpower, and pyscho boost takes down a bit of its hp, which still leaves a weakened deoxes in play.

Lanturn should defenitly be put on that list.

 

[the Lexx]

Which brings us back to the point where if only a few Pokemon can deal with it, and only sometimes at that - why are we allowing it?

 

[cornflake]

Which brings us back to the point where if only a few Pokemon can deal with it, and only sometimes at that - why are we allowing it?

QFT. I still don't think Deoxys-S should be allowed; the counters aren't solid.

 

[Lyfsaho]

Lanturn, which was showed to us by bologo, resists boltbeam/take little damage from superpower, and pyscho boost takes down a bit of its hp, which still leaves a weakened deoxes in play.

Lanturn should defenitly be put on that list.

I'm sorry, but standard special sponging Lanturn takes 77.06% - 90.77% from a single Psycho Boost. Thats even a possible OHKO with SR.

Which brings us back to the point where if only a few Pokemon can deal with it, and only sometimes at that - why are we allowing it?

good question.

 

[Ditto132]

im using the same CB dugtrio that I was using before Deoxys E came around. Sucker Punch KO's, and all Deoxys has is attack moves unless it runs Taunt (not likely)

 

[Lyfsaho]

im using the same CB dugtrio that I was using before Deoxys E came around. Sucker Punch KO's, and all Deoxys has is attack moves unless it runs Taunt (not likely)

that is right, actually, and a note will be added. However, thats not really countering, its revenge killing. you have to sacrifice a pokemon for it anyhow. And bare in mind that after a Sucker Punch, anything there is can set up on you.

 

[the Lexx]

that is right, actually, and a note will be added. However, thats not really countering, its revenge killing. you have to sacrifice a pokemon for it anyhow. And bare in mind that after a Sucker Punch, anything there is can set up on you.

With an Adamant Dugtrio, you need a Choice Band for that, and even then there's only a 66% chance of an OHKO. With Life Orb, you can't OHKO at all. Meaning it isn't that much of a "counter" unless it's already weakened.

 

[Jibaku]

So the question, on a simple level, boils down to this: Will we all have to start carrying Jirachi, Bronzong or Spiritomb on every team?

The same can be said about MixMence. There are very few counters for it, namely Spiritomb, Dusknoir and Cresselia. The question is, must we carry one of those three around? No, we deal with Mixmence using prediction. Superpower can be somewhat compared to Draco Meteor since they both drop stats.

 

[Doctor Mudkip]

It is my experience that Deoxys - S is outdone by playing your moves wisely.

There are things that can own it pretty hard, its not like it is invincible.

And honestly, it has no place is ubers as it is outclassed by everything. To strong for OU? Not in my opinion, but I suppose that is just me. >.>

 

[the Lexx]

The same can be said about MixMence. There are very few counters for it, namely Spiritomb, Dusknoir and Cresselia. The question is, must we carry one of those three around? No, we deal with Mixmence using prediction. Superpower can be somewhat compared to Draco Meteor since they both drop stats.

Except that Mixmence is slow (270, 307 sometimes) while Deoxys-E outspeeds pretty much everything, so it can afford to make a mistake and pick the next attack, while Salamence often has to retreat.

 

[Lyfsaho]

The same can be said about MixMence. There are very few counters for it, namely Spiritomb, Dusknoir and Cresselia. The question is, must we carry one of those three around? No, we deal with Mixmence using prediction. Superpower can be somewhat compared to Draco Meteor since they both drop stats.

Correct, but bare in mind Mixmence is weak to SR and is incomparably slower than Deoxys, making it vulnerable to a great number of indirect threats. Not to mention the disgusting x4 ice weakness. Oh, and you didn't list all the counters; Rhyperior does a number on him with a few sp.def ev's in a sandstorm, and Milotic or Vaporeon don't dislike mixmence either.

Mixmence, while being no doubt an outstanding pokemon, has more.. indirect flaws than Deoxys. Sure, it is slightly bulkier, especially with Intimidate, but then again, Deoxys was never meant to take a hit.

 

[Urza]

this may sound very weird but i actually enjoy using a support speed deoxys to set up field hazards and knock off items. a good opponent quickly realizes that it isn't an offensive threat and switches to an appropriate counter, at which point you hit them with an attack of some sort, any of the powerful options this guy has. looking at the list of counters, hp fire doesn't sound too bad, predict the switch and hit them as hard as you can.

but like i said. i'm wasting its true talents to have fun.

 

[Gandalf the blue]

Steelix is a good counter aswell. He resists shadow ball, psycho boost, and takes laughable damage from superpower even though its se. He will even OHKO with earthquake after a superpower if you invested a few Atk evs. Too bad he has no reliabe recovery.
Anyway, i would like it to be banned again. Its one of the reasons why everyone goes +Speed nature with their scarfd Pokemon

greetz Gandalf der blaue

 

[Lyfsaho]

Steelix is a good counter aswell. He resists shadow ball, psycho boost, and takes laughable damage from superpower even though its se. He will even OHKO with earthquake after a superpower if you invested a few Atk evs. Too bad he has no reliabe recovery.
Anyway, i would like it to be banned again. Its one of the reasons why everyone goes +Speed nature with their scarfd Pokemon

greetz Gandalf der blaue

That Deoxys set I posted up on the first post does 46.61% - 54.80% to max HP / no sp.def Steelix with a single Ice Beam. Nope, not a counter lol.

Und servus Gandalf ;)

 

[umbarsc]

I don't see why it had to be even allowed in the first place. Sure, it might not be too good for the metagame (which is a lie, in my opinion), but what's the point in allowing it? What's the harm in banning it? After we've carved a solid team after the dust has settled on the metagame, we realize that our teams are fucked over by a new bullet on the threat list? Deoxys-E has few 100% counters, and is fast enough that unlike MixMence, you can't predict a Roost and send in Weavile to force it out. And unlike its fellow frail Psychic-types like Azelf, it can't be easily Pursuited, because the most common Pursuiters are hurt by its standard moves (Heracross, Weavile, Metagross, Tyranitar). The only true 100% counter is really Spiritomb, but what kind of Deoxys ISN'T 100% countered by Spiritomb?

 

[Lyfsaho]

I don't see why it had to be even allowed in the first place. Sure, it might not be too good for the metagame (which is a lie, in my opinion), but what's the point in allowing it? What's the harm in banning it? After we've carved a solid team after the dust has settled on the metagame, we realize that our teams are fucked over by a new bullet on the threat list? Deoxys-E has few 100% counters, and is fast enough that unlike MixMence, you can't predict a Roost and send in Weavile to force it out. And unlike its fellow frail Psychic-types like Azelf, it can't be easily Pursuited, because the most common Pursuiters are hurt by its standard moves (Heracross, Weavile, Metagross, Tyranitar). The only true 100% counter is really Spiritomb, but what kind of Deoxys ISN'T 100% countered by Spiritomb?

I'd disagree here; This is what we call change. The metagame never stays the same, it continously develops. Deoxys-E is just one more change; Question is, is it too much? But change in general is only good for the metagame, it'd be boring without it.

Spiritomb is not the only 100% couner to speed deoxys. Standard jirachi and standard Bronzong both deal with it very comfortably.

 

[Xênaz]

I'd disagree here; This is what we call change. The metagame never stays the same, it continously develops. Deoxys-E is just one more change; Question is, is it too much? But change in general is only good for the metagame, it'd be boring without it.

Spiritomb is not the only 100% couner to speed deoxys. Standard jirachi and standard Bronzong both deal with it very comfortably.

I'm pretty sure his point was that the change was too big. I also agree that it is really difficult to have to rethink a whole new team just because there is this gigantic new threat in Deoxys-E. Hell, a lot of offensively based teams need to be completely changed due to D-E's speed; no longer can the team work well, all of your Pokémon get outsped and 1-2HKO'd by this new threat.

TBH, I've had a lot of trouble just predicting it. I have encountered about 50% of the similar set you mentioned and about 50% of an annoyer version with Taunt, Spikes, Pursuit, and Knock Off. That caused a lot of trouble for me.

My view is that it should go. The only three real counters IMO are Bronzong, Jirachi, and Spiritomb. Doesn't Cresselia get 2HKO'd by a Spec'd Shadow Ball? I thought that was the case...

 

[Lyfsaho]

I'm pretty sure his point was that the change was too big. I also agree that it is really difficult to have to rethink a whole new team just because there is this gigantic new threat in Deoxys-E. Hell, a lot of offensively based teams need to be completely changed due to D-E's speed; no longer can the team work well, all of your Pokémon get outsped and 1-2HKO'd by this new threat.

TBH, I've had a lot of trouble just predicting it. I have encountered about 50% of the similar set you mentioned and about 50% of an annoyer version with Taunt, Spikes, Pursuit, and Knock Off. That caused a lot of trouble for me.

My view is that it should go. The only three real counters IMO are Bronzong, Jirachi, and Spiritomb. Doesn't Cresselia get 2HKO'd by a Spec'd Shadow Ball? I thought that was the case...

Indeed, but Specs'ing him terribly limits his awesome versatility imo, so its meh. But I see the point. It is undoubtedly something new and unexpected.

 

[Bentendo1]

Pretty much anything carrying a strong Sucker Punch can take care of Deoxys-E unless it's some weird defensive Deoxys-E support gimmick set.

Now, here's what can Sucker Punch: http://www.serebii.net/attackdex-dp/suckerpunch.shtml.

Looking at that, the most notable ones are Dugtrio, Cacturne, Absol, and Spiritomb.

They aren't all as common as Blissey or Cressy or whatever, but Tomb and Dugtrio are OU, and I think Cacturne is now OU as well (I dunno, it's gaining popularity). Absol has the highest attack of all of the aforementioned Pokes, but most people run jolly anyways, if it's even seen (I think it's BL now?).

My point is, people will now have to use specific Pokemon just to counter Deoxys-E, which can take away from the game, in a way.

 

[eric the espeon]

the list of total counters for garchomp is ALOT shorter that this,

lets see

cressy
bronzong (will not like switching in on F blast)
skarm (will not like switching in on F blast)
urm..... thats it.

and try specs mence
blissey
chansey

mosty other sp. walls are 2kod by specs metior (or regice to F thrower), steels die to F thrower and some carry EQ for heatran.
i have 2koed tentecrewls, milotics, and many other pokes.

 

[andysensei]

the list of total counters for garchomp is ALOT shorter that this,

lets see

cressy
bronzong (will not like switching in on F blast)
skarm (will not like switching in on F blast)
urm..... thats it.

and try specs mence
blissey
chansey

mosty other sp. walls are 2kod by specs metior (or regice to F thrower), steels die to F thrower and some carry EQ for heatran.
i have 2koed tentecrewls, milotics, and many other pokes.

but you're locked into a move with specsmence.. meaning you can be forced out when you get out predicted and locked into a resisted move.

And with draco meteor as your main move, you're forced to switch after the second use of it due to the SpA drop, meaning having SR is a good counter as you lose 25% every time you switch in. Not to mention Salamence's speed isn't that great, and can be pretty easily revenge killed.

life orbed Deoxys-S can switch moves at its leisure and only really has to switch if it uses superpower on a resistant poke and THEN you bring blissey in. So you pretty much HAVE to have a sucker puncher on your team to reliably defeat it, but in the case of anything but dugtrio, he can just run away. AND in the case of duggy, you have to sacrifice a poke to revenge kill him . =\

 

[Jiggy-Ninja]

the list of total counters for garchomp is ALOT shorter that this,

lets see

cressy
bronzong (will not like switching in on F blast)
skarm (will not like switching in on F blast)
urm..... thats it.

and try specs mence
blissey
chansey

mosty other sp. walls are 2kod by specs metior (or regice to F thrower), steels die to F thrower and some carry EQ for heatran.
i have 2koed tentecrewls, milotics, and many other pokes.

As was already mentioned, Garchomp and Salamence are a lot slower than Deoxys, so outpredicting them and switching in a counter can force them out. Deoxys is faster than pretty much everything in existence, and can switch attacks as needed.

 

[Gandalf the blue]

Like some other dudes i cant see the reason to allow it. It only increases the threat list, so that you have even less place for some nonstandard Pokemon. And if it would be allowed, I would consider the Latis as legal Ou aswell. They both have counters, and die to Pursuit.

@Lifsaho: who talks about 0 SDef?^^ I always go with 186 as a minimum to survive 266 stabed surfs 100%. And you can go even further.
Btw are you german?^^

 

[DevilinDenial]

Saying Cresselia is an unreliable counter to LO Deoxys is a joke, considering even with Sandstorm up, Stealth Rock damage and Shadow Ball, still you are 3HKOed, and Deoxys-S has to worry about that same Sandstorm and Life Orb damage, as well as Cresselia recovering. The point that Deoxys has to choose a Defense or Special Defense decreasin nature is painful as well, choose to be 3HKOed by Cresselia's Ice Beam or OHKOed by Metagross' Meteor Mash. Bronzong really fucks Deoxys-S over with a 150 Base Power STABed Gyro Ball, and Jirachi will beat you with U-Turn, Luster Cannon or just paralysis.

And Deoxys has more counters than most threats in the game. What I think has people mad is that their Scarf leads and revenge killers keep getting revenge killed. You have something fast that can hit things super effective, think Motor Boosted Electrivire except special and with a slightly stronger STAB move.

Psycho Boost and SuperPower involve switching out, so you can compare them to Deoxys-s, with Deoxys-S in an inferior place, actually. If you SuperPower a Blissey, then when Duggy comes in there's no chance of surviving, and if you Psycho Boost a Gengar, then you're screwed against Salamence/Garchomp/Gyarados.