Discussion Thread -- MANAPHY

[lilyhollow]

for what it's worth, manaphy could possibly improve both rain and hail teams since abomasnow can handle it pretty well. sounds nice to me, and I really don't see it being all that dominant on the whole.

I find Chou's opinion interesting though, and although I know he's not necessarily saying that Manaphy will make Bulky Waters "too strong," I will say that I'm not particularly worried about anything like that happening, particularly with Advance being the way that it was, with things such as Swampert, Milotic and Suicune being significantly more useful for the most part.

 

[BRShooter]

Keep in mind that as I'm writing this from the perspective of someone who sees Vaporeon as THE #1 most threatening pokemon and Suicune as #2. People seriously do not understand how far bulky waters shape the game and keep offensive teams in line. In the advent of mix-attacking wall breakers like infernape and salamence as well as guess-the-set pokes like Luke and water-based dragon dancers like Kingdra and Gyarados, it's not SkarmBliss that stops offensive pokes from running amuk-- it's the combined front of vaporeon, suicune, swamert, starmie and tentacruel.

Bulky waters are near-integral to the balance of the metagame, but are also a pokemon group that goes largely unchecked. While they are not walls that last the whole game, they are tanks that are bound to have a huge impact on the shape of the early game before they go down. If you play an offensive team in DP, your #1 priority in early game is: kill the bulky water, even if it costs you 1-2 members of your team.

Water has 2 weaknesses that are very hard to abuse. Grass is one of the less used attacking types, and grass pokemon have to fear ice beam. Electric is terrible as a main STAB as it is immuned by the ever-present ground (and swampy lols). The top electric types of the game rarely go to all-out-sweeper sets (zappy and rotom are usually tankish). Both electric and grass are popular as secondary attacks on pokemon without STAB, but without stab bulky waters have a decent time shrugging it off.

Water also has amazing nuetral coverage, resisted only by dragon, grass and water. Of course water v. water just means more water types around (and leads to headaches near that of blissey v. cresselia) and both dragon and grass are weak to ice (which of course every water type can pack, thanks GF). Throw in a grass/electric attack and you have perfect coverage, though many water types have success just by spamming their stab alone. Sleep Talk Gyara or Suicune with Waterfall as their only attack are surprisingly powerful for example.

Pure Water is one of the most powerful and offensively/defensively balanced types a pokemon can have.

With that in mind, Manaphy could be the water type to end all water types. 100 in every base stat is very good, and compliments water types balanced nature.

It's 1 tier weaker than suicune in both defenses. You guys all know how bulky celebi and jirachi are (and they have much more easily abused weaknesses). As a quick comparison, this means it is 3 tiers above Vappy on defense and 1 tier below on special defense (3 tiers is the difference between Empoleon and Aerodactyle btw). It's also roughly the same tier (on both sides) as Tentacruel's Special Defense. Goes without saying that it is a notch tougher than swampert on either front.

100 speed tier is nothing to scoff at either. The ability to go on the offensive on either side of the spectrum with decent power is also troubling.

Even before looking at its traits or any of its moves, its clear that we are looking at a definite top tier pokemon. For the most part though, I'd say that

swampy has SR!
Vappy has Wish!
Tentacruel has Spin, Knock Off and Toxic Spikes!

I'm not going to lie that lacking a truly intimidating set up move is definitely one of its weak points, as well as any really reliable recovery. However that never stopped sleep-talk suicune. Imagine a slightly less bulky suicune with Hydro-Rest and Nasty Plot. That's Manaphy.

It's not like it's totally screwed on the support-move side either. Double Screen Manaphy anyone? :P

While I agree that Manaphy should not be moved down to OU, I really disagree with your viewpoint on Bulky Waters. This isn't Advance anymore, they're no longer invincible. A lot of Pokemon they could wall in the last generation can take them down now. Not to mention, changes like Metagross gaining physical Thunderpunch, the addition of Grass Knot (NP LO Grass Knot from Infernape), and new, more powerful attacks for many of the top-tier attackers in OU (think Outrage, Close Combat, Stone Edge, etc.) are also a major blow to the Bulky Waters.

Granted, Bulky Waters ARE useful, and certainly very powerful, but they're not as overpowered as you're making them out to be.

 

[1059860]

I don't know why people are even mentioning that he'd be solid in OU, of course he would, that's why he was made an uber in the first place, he was originally OU.

Rest/hydration was just too annoying to deal with. With a Bronzong or something setting rain up he wreaked unholy havoc with tail glow/rest/surf/ice beam or energy ball. He got basically 5 turns to sit around and set up a tail glow or two before starting a sweep. 100/100/100 base defenses mean you'd never really OHKO. 100 base speed means he's on par or better than the great majority of OU. Manaphy would rarely 6-0 a team but he was like Garchomp in that if you played him right he'd always score at least one or two.

Even the crocune-like rest/rain dance/tail glow/surf with EVs in defenses was a HUGE threat, if you don't have a water absorber or a Ludicolo you pretty much lose to that set.

This thing was made uber before Garchomp, nuff said.

Things can be different with the multiple move additions added in Platinum, especially the new number of tricks that can shut 75% of this thing's ability down.

 

[Kietharr]

My opinion on manaphy is that Shaymin-S counters this hard. And the set you posted isn't even the best one IMO...

This is actually a very good point, Shaymin's extremely fast grass attack can absolutely ruin any set not running ice beam, and he has to predict the switch in to not be forced out. Of course, Shaymin-S wasn't around in the days where Manaphy was still OU. Maybe he is worth a test, but if Shaymin-S goes ubers for some reason I don't see any reason to even bother bringing Manaphy back down.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

The Rain Dance/Tail Glow/Rest/Surf set is completely walled by anything with Water Absorb or Dry Skin. This is a fact. However, there isn't much else that can stand up to it -- Hydration makes it immune to status and HydroRest makes it effectively immune to anything less than a 2HKO. (I say 2HKO since if you're doing > 50% damage, you can force Manaphy to Rest constantly or die, but the Rain doesn't hang around forever.) Ludicolo may be able to wall it with a 4x Water resistance and Energy Ball, but Pokemon like Blissey and Cresselia won't enjoy taking +2/4/6 double-STAB Surfs.

At the very least, Manaphy will lead to a rise in Rain Dance teams that seek to abuse both it and Kingdra. (And Ludicolo, and Kabutops, and...) This in turn could lead to Sandstorm, Hail, and Sunny Day teams popping up to replace the rain with their own weather, negating Manaphy's trump card. As much as I'd love for weather to become a viable strategy, I believe that Manaphy's counters come from a range of Pokemon that is too narrow to allow it in OU. (EDIT: I'd love if someone could prove me wrong on this point.)

 

[Legacy Raider]

Something that might be of interest to people:

Modest Manaphy Life Orb Tail Glowed (+2) Surf in the rain vs 176/80 Calm Blissey: 43.7 - 51.5% (57% chance to 2HKO with SR, taking Leftovers into account)

Note that Manaphy cannot be paralysed in the rain, and Thunderbolt from Blissey does <37% to it.

So Blissey, the all purpose special wall, cannot stand up to an offensive Manaphy in its element. By adding Manaphy to OU, I think the metagame would centralise too much around it, necessitating the use of things like Ludicolo and Vaporeon on every team.

LR.

 

[Chou Toshio]

While I agree that Manaphy should not be moved down to OU, I really disagree with your viewpoint on Bulky Waters. This isn't Advance anymore, they're no longer invincible. A lot of Pokemon they could wall in the last generation can take them down now. Not to mention, changes like Metagross gaining physical Thunderpunch, the addition of Grass Knot (NP LO Grass Knot from Infernape), and new, more powerful attacks for many of the top-tier attackers in OU (think Outrage, Close Combat, Stone Edge, etc.) are also a major blow to the Bulky Waters.

Granted, Bulky Waters ARE useful, and certainly very powerful, but they're not as overpowered as you're making them out to be.

Who said anything about walling or being invincible?

What I originally posted:
While they are not walls that last the whole game, they are tanks that are bound to have a huge impact on the shape of the early game before they go down. If you play an offensive team in DP, your #1 priority in early game is: kill the bulky water, even if it costs you 1-2 members of your team.

You don't have to wall something to be a defensive threat, you just have to deal with it, and if you kill 1 enemy poke you were decently successful. Have you ever tried killing a vaporeon with grass knot? You can't, not even with mild MAX Sp.ATK, as it will take less than half its health and wish its way back up.

You can Band or Specs an Outrage or Draco Meteor, but it's highly unlikely Salamence is beating any bulky water 1 on 1 barring yache berry (which is like non-existant).

As I said, Bulky Water types are not walls. In this generation Walls have to be very specialized to shrug off attacks and reduce themselves to handling specific threats. Bulky Waters are tanks that can defeat almost every sweeper in the game 1 on 1. They aren't lasting the whole game, but they can definitely set the pace. It's like the inverse of a wall breaker.

A "wall breaker" is an offensive team's answer to dedicated walls, a pokemon who can't truly sweep but has the power to break any 1 wall (and start to unlink the defense).

In the same way a "tank" (the best are bulky waters) is a defensive team's answer in a pokemon that can't truly wall, but has the bulk to defeat just about any 1 sweeper.

1. Heatran
2. Scizor
3. Salamence
4. Zapdos
5. Gyarados
6. Lucario
7. Gengar
8. Tyranitar
9. Shaymin-S
10. Metagross
11. Infernape
12. Azelf
    [*]Kingdra
13. Mamoswine
14. Weavile

These are the top 15 heavily offensively-oriented pokemon of OU, and all except the non-bolded ones have near 0 chance of beating a bulky water type 1 on 1. Even amongst the ones I bolded, it's not like Gengar, Azelf or Kingdra have it particularly easy against bulky waters. Also Zappy is more of a tank. Also note that the ones I bolded (except kingdra, and sort of azelf) all have serious issues with Blissey. The scariest sweepers, and in 4th gen's OU that means mostly top physical and mix sweepers, almost universally have almost nill chance of beating a bulky water type 1 on 1. If that isn't the sign of being a good tank, I don't know what is.

 

[Legacy Raider]

Scizor can beat most bulky waters quite easily actually. I use the following set on the majority of my teams:

Adamant @ Leftovers
252HP, 76Atk, 180SpD
- Bullet Punch
- Swords Dance
- Brick Break
- Roost

Bulky waters apart from Gyarados are set up material. Immune to Toxic, not too badly hurt by Thunder Wave, the only thing Scizor dislikes is being phazed out.

But yeah, with Manaphy in OU, every team will have to carry a bulky water (mostly Vaporeon methinks) to deal with the threat. This would slow down the metagame as a whole, meaning sweepers like Salamence and Heatran might not be nearly as effective as they are now.

LR.

 

[Chou Toshio]

LR, you got to admit that is a pretty damn specialized scizor set. >>

Ones that are more inclined towards offense or physical bulkiness can't stand up to continued surfs and do paltry damage initially. Heck, I've been running max attack CB scizor for a while and it's not funny how much vappy laughs at U-Turn.

 

[Veedrock]

Something that might be of interest to people:

Modest Manaphy Life Orb Tail Glowed (+2) Surf in the rain vs 176/80 Calm Blissey: 43.7 - 51.5% (57% chance to 2HKO with SR)

Note that Manaphy cannot be paralysed in the rain, and Thunderbolt from Blissey does <37% to it.

So Blissey, the all purpose special wall, cannot stand up to an offensive Manaphy in its element. By adding Manaphy to OU, I think the metagame would centralise too much around it, necessitating the use of things like Ludicolo and Vaporeon on every team.

LR.

I just had to run these calcs after you said that, and you are right.

I knew it would be a beast, but a possible 2HKO on BLISSEY?!!! (btw, did you consider the Leftovers recovery?) That's screaming overcentralization (which I addressed in my previous post). With Heatran everywhere, it could easily come in and set up Tail Glow and start sweeping. One could probably fit a move on there to handle it's resistances as well. If you don't have a counter, I can see this thing easily sweeping teams 6-0. If 2 RD teams opposed each other (each with Manaphy), it'd be a race to see who could set up first.

Yeah, why is this thing even considered? Status protection (meaning instant Rest) in rain, which boosts its already STAB attacks, along with a SpA boosting move and an already decent SpA to begin with...

I know a test wouldn't hurt (expect maybe the Smogon Frontier if people tried to abuse it), but seriously, it'll never pass. And this is coming from a guy that feels that if something isn't clearly broken, it may as well be tested (and actually tested before deciding).

 

[Darkerkrai]

Everyone says Water Absorb/Dry Skin Pokemon and Ludicolo will completely wall it... isn't that overcentralizing that you need one of those Pokemon to take up a slot on your team? I mean, like with Garchomp, the user would take out its "counters" before they got an absolute chance to actually KO it.

However, like Garchomp, Manaphy can raise its offensive stat two stages; however, they do differ in some areas. Garchomp was much more sturdier with 2 excellent STAB options to run; Manaphy has much better typing and can't be taken down by most priority moves. Garchomp could raise its evasion in a Sandstorm by 20%; Manaphy can heal up any status under Rain, giving it the ability to heal itself up without trouble. Garchomp can be under an almost everlasting Sandstorm; Manaphy gets 2-7 turns of Rain if something's using a Damp Rock and Rain Dance. If Manaphy itself uses Rain Dance, that's nearly identical to having a Sandstream up due to the fact that Manaphy needs only a single turn to set it up, healing off damage with Rest the next turn.

This also makes me wonder about how destructive Calm Mind can be on it. Calm Mind allows for Manaphy to take on Choice Specs users (who aren't using Trick obviously) and come out on top. Rest/Calm Mind/Surf/Rain Dance(Ice Beam/Energy Ball) is actually pretty detructive in OU.

Skymin, Skymin, Skymin, how easily can I take you down? Unbelivabally, Mamoswine does a nice job on a Rain Dance team, keeping most Fire users at bay for a while, making you opponent resort to using Fighting and Grass moves to stop it. A supporting Dragonite that invests majorly in Special Defense and HP can easily counter Skymin. Generally, all you need is an Ice Beam user, Light Screen support or a Choice Scarf (in this case, Swift Swim) user to stop Skymin from putting a stop to Manaphy's sweep.

All of you say that Manaphy will be walled easily, but, those atributes you mention that wall Manaphy exist in only a few Pokemon, causing the metagame to overcentralize on it in the long run.

 

[lilyhollow]

All of you say that Manaphy will be walled easily, but, those atributes you mention that wall Manaphy exist in only a few Pokemon, causing the metagame to overcentralize on it in the long run.

Well obviously you don't need to 100% wall something in order to handle it.

 

[Legacy Raider]

LR, you got to admit that is a pretty damn specialized scizor set. >>

Ones that are more inclined towards offense or physical bulkiness can't stand up to continued surfs and do paltry damage initially. Heck, I've been running max attack CB scizor for a while and it's not funny how much vappy laughs at U-Turn.

Hahaha woops. Me and my anti-metagame pokes. But yeah Chou, I hate bulky waters almost as much as you. Water is a broken type, it should be banned =P.

I just had to run these calcs after you said that, and you are right.

I knew it would be a beast, but a possible 2HKO on BLISSEY?!!! (btw, did you consider the Leftovers recovery?)

Yeah. The other scary thing about it is that Thunder Wave, Blissey's generic way of stopping a sweeper, does literally nothing to Manaphy because of Hydration.

LR.

 

[Bam]

I knew it would be a beast, but a possible 2HKO on BLISSEY?!!! (btw, did you consider the Leftovers recovery?) That's screaming overcentralization (which I addressed in my previous post). With Heatran everywhere, it could easily come in and set up Tail Glow and start sweeping. One could probably fit a move on there to handle it's resistances as well. If you don't have a counter, I can see this thing easily sweeping teams 6-0. If 2 RD teams opposed each other (each with Manaphy), it'd be a race to see who could set up first.

Yeah, why is this thing even considered? Status protection (meaning instant Rest) in rain, which boosts its already STAB attacks, along with a SpA boosting move and an already decent SpA to begin with...

I know a test wouldn't hurt (expect maybe the Smogon Frontier if people tried to abuse it), but seriously, it'll never pass. And this is coming from a guy that feels that if something isn't clearly broken, it may as well be tested (and actually tested before deciding).

Oh God, the horror! Now we must move Shaymin-S, Empoleon, Lucario, PorygonZ, and other Pokemon to ubers just because they can 2HKO (and even OHKO in PoryZ's case) Blissey with a special attack! Seriously though, beating Blissey with a special move isn't that big of a deal anymore. Also, just because it can beat Blissey 1on1 doesn't make it "screamingly overcentralization". It simply means that it can wreak havoc...with one attack. And what else will 6-0 your team if you don't have a counter for it..? Well, pretty much anything.

I'm not saying that Manaphy would be nothing to worry about - I do agree that is would be a deadly threat and that a check would be required. However, it's no cause for overexaggeration.

I will compose my thoughts on this (I haven't been that active with competitive battling recently) and post them later.

edit: Note that 80SpA Blissey's Thunder does a minimum of 44.87% to a 4/0 Manaphy, making it a likely 2HKO with Stealth Rocks.

 

[petrie911]

Hahaha woops. Me and my anti-metagame pokes. But yeah Chou, I hate bulky waters almost as much as you. Water is a broken type, it should be banned =P.

Nah, Gamefreak should have just made them weak to Poison and give Ice a Water resist. Two bad types get boosts, and one really, really good type gets a nerf. Everyone wins.

Yeah. The other scary thing about it is that Thunder Wave, Blissey's generic way of stopping a sweeper, does literally nothing to Manaphy because of Hydration.

LR.

Perhaps Blisseys will start carrying Thunder. Maybe even some Serene Grace Blisseys to take advantage of that sexy 60% paralysis from Thunder.

 

[Veedrock]

Oh God, the horror! Now we must move Shaymin-S, Empoleon, Lucario, PorygonZ, and other Pokemon to ubers just because they can 2HKO (and even OHKO in PoryZ's case) Blissey with a special attack! Seriously though, beating Blissey with a special move isn't that big of a deal anymore. Also, just because it can beat Blissey 1on1 doesn't make it "screamingly overcentralization". It simply means that it can wreak havoc...with one attack. And what else will 6-0 your team if you don't have a counter for it..? Well, pretty much anything.

I'm not saying that Manaphy would be nothing to worry about - I do agree that is would be a deadly threat and that a check would be required. However, it's no cause for overexaggeration.

I will compose my thoughts on this (I haven't been that active with competitive battling recently) and post them later.

If you don't have a counter for a pokemon, it overruns your team. Agreed. But said pokemon can likely be taken down normally without special treatment. If you don't have a Weezing counter, chances are you have a pokemon or two that can at least deal with it. Now, what counters or even checks Manaphy? Chances are it would have to be a specialized Pokemon (much like special ones were needed for 'Chomp), which is overcentralizing. Anything else that could deal with it would get KO'd before taking it out, and using multiple pokemon to take it down (much like with Garchomp and hence overcentralization) is an idea (but still overcentralized), it can heal itself 100% at no cost whatsoever, starting fresh and taking out the currect "problem solver".

 

[chaos 9]

that 2hko on blissey is really situational. Manaphy has to come in, with rain already up, (or waste a turn/moveslot to set it up) then tail glow. Blissey can come in on any of those turns. But it can't do anything back so I guess its a moot point. I would like to at least test him. I think he'll prove highest OU or barely uber once again.

 

[Automatic]

This thread is full of a lot more "stupid" then I expected. Maybe just resurrect the old Manaphy discussion posts where there was at least some thoughtful discussion. There are like the same 4 people posting over and over that it's broken because of wah wah wah.

So with a couple of Tail Glows, a Life Orb'd Manaphy could potentially 2hko Blissey. That would most likely require the Manaphy to run Surf/Tail Glow/Rain Dance..unless you want to constantly have to lose your Tail Glow for rain support(which sucks b/c there are no OU weather inducers). Then, that set could potentially 2hko Blissey after a couple of Tail Glows. (btw it took 2 Tail Glows to do 51% to the Blissey on the Pokemonexperte.de server) I guess that'd be doing a disservice to the metagame, because people would have to STOP RELYING ON A SINGLE SPECIAL WALL to wall all your special sweepers.

Manaphy suffers greatly from 4 slot syndrome. I'd suggest the best way to use it without having rely on anything from any other poke would be: Rain Dance/ Surf /TG/ Rest. That way, Abomasnow, or Hippodown, or anyone else who can stir up the weather on a switch wouldn't be able to stop you dead in your tracks, you'd have to start up Rain again, but oh well it's only one turn in which you can be roared, wood hammered, whatever else. Then, once you have that down, nothing like Vaporeon, Suicine, Blastoise (105sdef), Kingdra (25% from water), Mantine, Tentacruel, Poliwrath(y hello thar setup bait), Politoed, Slowking, Milotic, Toxicroak, Parasect(loljk), Ludicolo, could come in and stop you because you can't do a thing to them. Except for stat up and hope for a crit.

So we say "oh snap!" we need Ice Beam, or Grass Knot, or HP Electric or else we are pretty much walled to hell and back by these pokes. Ok so we have to drop Rain Dance, Rest, or Tail Glow. Oops, there goes the all self reliant Manaphy.

Dropping Rain Dance means any other auto-weather inducer, or even a poke with TM 11, TM 07, or TM 37 can switch in and make Manaphy have to switch out to get that 1.5 boost/hydration benefit back.

Dropping Rest is probably the best option, but then it can be brought down quick enough by a Specs thunderbolt, or two thunderbolts from most other special sweepers. It's not like there is more than 1 electric types that have over 100 speed though.

So we say, eff it lets drop Rain Dance! Well there goes that rain you depend on for your two favorite benefits, Hydration and 1.5% boost on your surf because there are several OU auto-weather inducers.

Ok, so no Tail Glow! Well that's pretty silly. Good luck though. The ever present CM-Suicine still doesn't have a problem with HP Electric, and has roar. I run haze on my Vappy anways, so he's got no problems: Just a stall war that Vaporeon would win.

If Manaphy had 8 move slots, then it would potentially be an end all poke, but it doesn't.

It sure would be a mindfuck though, to not see Heatran every single match. And people might have to use something else for a special wall(shit!). Just because Blissey can't stop a special sweeper means it's broken? Blissey can't stop a HP Fighting Mismagius after a few CM's either.

I look forward to the testing.

Also: Kingdra usage would effing skyrocket (cool ass beans!)

 

[Chou Toshio]

I've always thought this "4-move-syndrome" idea was retarded.

Why? Because obviously if a poke has this so called "syndrom" that means it has a really good movepool, where as even top pokes sometimes wish they had a better movepool (zapdos: "give me ice beam damn it!"). Bottom line, I'd take "4-slot-syndrom" over "crappy movepool" anyday.

 

[lilyhollow]

Well I don't think anybody thinks a pokemon with a poor movepool is better off than one with "too many moves" lol. It's just a good way to stop people from overstating the perks of a large movepool/multiple moveset options.

 

[Darkerkrai]

Well I don't think anybody thinks a pokemon with a poor movepool is better off than one with "too many moves" lol. It's just a good way to stop people from overstating the perks of a large movepool/multiple moveset options.

That's why Skymin is chosen over Wigglytuff. I can say that so many people overcentalize on a Pokemon's movepool rather making it Uber than its viability to use that movepool (like Deoxys-S who I miss ;_;).

 

[DT]

I'm wanting to test Manaphy, I might just do it on PBR. The big thing with Manaphy is it's Ability, but to use or ensure it safety it has to have 2 Move Slot, that brings the obvious solution give it rain Support before it's on the field, but that leaves it counterable by our good old Tyranitar, those running Rain Dance get walled vaporeon completly I personally don't think it's too good for OU, can't wait till testing.

 

[Thorns]

Because of the lack of eternal weather aside from Sandstorm and the occassional Hail in Standard play, Rain/Sun teams are difficult to pull off. Manaphy is just another Pokemon who happens to be incredibly good in the rain.

 

[1059860]

Everyone says Water Absorb/Dry Skin Pokemon and Ludicolo will completely wall it... isn't that overcentralizing that you need one of those Pokemon to take up a slot on your team? I mean, like with Garchomp, the user would take out its "counters" before they got an absolute chance to actually KO it.

However, like Garchomp, Manaphy can raise its offensive stat two stages; however, they do differ in some areas. Garchomp was much more sturdier with 2 excellent STAB options to run; Manaphy has much better typing and can't be taken down by most priority moves. Garchomp could raise its evasion in a Sandstorm by 20%; Manaphy can heal up any status under Rain, giving it the ability to heal itself up without trouble. Garchomp can be under an almost everlasting Sandstorm; Manaphy gets 2-7 turns of Rain if something's using a Damp Rock and Rain Dance. If Manaphy itself uses Rain Dance, that's nearly identical to having a Sandstream up due to the fact that Manaphy needs only a single turn to set it up, healing off damage with Rest the next turn.

This also makes me wonder about how destructive Calm Mind can be on it. Calm Mind allows for Manaphy to take on Choice Specs users (who aren't using Trick obviously) and come out on top. Rest/Calm Mind/Surf/Rain Dance(Ice Beam/Energy Ball) is actually pretty detructive in OU.

Skymin, Skymin, Skymin, how easily can I take you down? Unbelivabally, Mamoswine does a nice job on a Rain Dance team, keeping most Fire users at bay for a while, making you opponent resort to using Fighting and Grass moves to stop it. A supporting Dragonite that invests majorly in Special Defense and HP can easily counter Skymin. Generally, all you need is an Ice Beam user, Light Screen support or a Choice Scarf (in this case, Swift Swim) user to stop Skymin from putting a stop to Manaphy's sweep.

All of you say that Manaphy will be walled easily, but, those atributes you mention that wall Manaphy exist in only a few Pokemon, causing the metagame to overcentralize on it in the long run.

Garchomp had proven that using IT was a much better and much more profitable physical sweeper than Manaphy. There is no absolute counter to all Garchomp's sets, but however, Manaphy can be screwed over if predicted a Rest by switching a Golduck into it, and Blissey can deal it quite well. A weight-loss Clefable can also shut Manaphy down in a way with Trick or Encore, and Manaphy doesn't have a 130 base offensive stat.

 

[Veedrock]

Garchomp had proven that using IT was a much better and much more profitable physical sweeper than Manaphy. There is no absolute counter to all Garchomp's sets, but however, Manaphy can be screwed over if predicted a Rest by switching a Golduck into it, and Blissey can deal it quite well. A weight-loss Clefable can also shut Manaphy down in a way with Trick or Encore, and Manaphy doesn't have a 130 base offensive stat.

Ok, Golduck and Clefable, UU pokemon. Putting that aside, nothing is stopping Manaphy from switching out to something to kill Golduck, set up rain again, and get Manaphy back in there. Making Manaphy the other rain user on a team is a really bad idea anyways. Blissey can't touch Manaphy too well. And it's SpA (which still isn't bad and can be powered up) isn't an issue when you have STAB+Weather.

Maybe I'm missing something, but this thing looks way too dangerous for OU. It's above Garchomp from what I can see.