I'd say if skymin stays OU manaphy has a good chance of not being broken because skymin is "the heatran for manaphy" as it outspeeds and OHKO's with super effective seed flare
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Discussion Thread -- MANAPHY
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I'd say if skymin stays OU manaphy has a good chance of not being broken because skymin is "the heatran for manaphy" as it outspeeds and OHKO's with super effective seed flare
The one thing about this though is prediction. Sceptile was this Pokemon back in the day, and Manaphy users weren't that impressed when it came out. Why? They usually tested for Sceptile by Ice Beaming first thing, and then setting up later. Skymin would be dealt with the same way. Heatran is such an effective means to beating Celebi and Jirachi because not only can Heatran kill it in one hit, but Celebi and Jirachi have really nothing on him anyway, barring Thunderwave+ HP Ground (lol) from Celebi or DynamicPunch from Jirachi. With Manaphy and Skymin, the situtation is alot simplier than that.
celebi gets earth power, but yeah, nobody really uses it.
Things he has going for him:
Defensive Typing - Water is one of the best defensive types in the game. It has 4 resistances, three of which are always incredibly useful (Water, Fire, Ice) and one of which is very useful in the current metagame (Steel, due to Bullet Punch Scizor). It only has two weaknesses, one of which is fairly negligible (Grass, which is only really ever packed specifically to deal with Bulky Water types, and is usually inferior to Electric except against Swampert.)
Weight - This is mostly a corrolary to Manaphy's defensive typing, his weight means he takes a negligible amount from Grass Knot.
Offensive Typing - Water is a very solid Offensive type, as it is one of the few not resisted by Steel. It has no types that are immune to it (though two separate abilities that are present on a total of 8 pokemon, one of which is OU, provide an immunity to it). There are three types that resist it, and it is super effective against three types (roughly an even number of Pokemon in OU that Resist it and are weak to it).
Other Offensive Options - Manaphy has access to Ice Beam, Grass Knot, and Energy Ball, allowing it to hit anything that resists its STAB super-effectively.
Base Stats - Nothing bad can be said about 100 All Base Stats, save that it lacks a truly "phenomenal" stat in any. Still, he has a large amount of bulk on both ends of the spectrum, making it unlikely he will be OHKO'd by any move that doesn't have a couple stages of stat-upping behind it, even super effective moves. It also allows decently powerful moves to come from both ends of the attacking spectrum, and allows him a good amount of speed to boot.
Tail Glow - No OU Bulky Water gets a +2 Attack/Special Attack boosting move.
Hydration - The ability to Rain Rest for instant full healing and status-removal is quite powerful.
Edit: Oh right, I didn't really say what this all means. Honestly, being the only bulky water with a +2 Special Attack Move is probably pretty busted. Everyone who played when Manaphy used to be legal seems to think so. The RainRest set seems like it would work best in conjunction with a Pokemon who could bait out and kill their Vaporeon/Other Bulky Water, which could then leave their team vulnerable to his amazing ability to recover fully instantly while hitting easily taking his special to +6 and sweeping with a +6 +Rain +LO +STAB Surf.
Defensive Typing - Water is one of the best defensive types in the game. It has 4 resistances, three of which are always incredibly useful (Water, Fire, Ice) and one of which is very useful in the current metagame (Steel, due to Bullet Punch Scizor). It only has two weaknesses, one of which is fairly negligible (Grass, which is only really ever packed specifically to deal with Bulky Water types, and is usually inferior to Electric except against Swampert.)
Weight - This is mostly a corrolary to Manaphy's defensive typing, his weight means he takes a negligible amount from Grass Knot.
Offensive Typing - Water is a very solid Offensive type, as it is one of the few not resisted by Steel. It has no types that are immune to it (though two separate abilities that are present on a total of 8 pokemon, one of which is OU, provide an immunity to it). There are three types that resist it, and it is super effective against three types (roughly an even number of Pokemon in OU that Resist it and are weak to it).
Other Offensive Options - Manaphy has access to Ice Beam, Grass Knot, and Energy Ball, allowing it to hit anything that resists its STAB super-effectively.
Base Stats - Nothing bad can be said about 100 All Base Stats, save that it lacks a truly "phenomenal" stat in any. Still, he has a large amount of bulk on both ends of the spectrum, making it unlikely he will be OHKO'd by any move that doesn't have a couple stages of stat-upping behind it, even super effective moves. It also allows decently powerful moves to come from both ends of the attacking spectrum, and allows him a good amount of speed to boot.
Tail Glow - No OU Bulky Water gets a +2 Attack/Special Attack boosting move.
Hydration - The ability to Rain Rest for instant full healing and status-removal is quite powerful.
Edit: Oh right, I didn't really say what this all means. Honestly, being the only bulky water with a +2 Special Attack Move is probably pretty busted. Everyone who played when Manaphy used to be legal seems to think so. The RainRest set seems like it would work best in conjunction with a Pokemon who could bait out and kill their Vaporeon/Other Bulky Water, which could then leave their team vulnerable to his amazing ability to recover fully instantly while hitting easily taking his special to +6 and sweeping with a +6 +Rain +LO +STAB Surf.
This is probably gimmicky, but Scizor can know Agility, Rain Dance and Baton Pass. Scizor hold a Damp Rock, use Agility and Rain Dance and then Baton Pass to Manaphy, who can then Tail Glow under Rain, use Rest whenever necessary and sweep with Surf and Ice Beam/Grass Knot/Energy Ball (which may become popular thanks to Manaphy becoming overcentralised, and to deal with Vaporeon). This Manaphy could even have Ice Beam and Grass Knot/Energy Ball in place of Rest, as Manaphy is bulky enough to take hits. The main pokemon who can stop Scizor is Heatran, who will lose popularity with Manaphy being OU.
And LO Timid Suicune is a joke compared to Manaphy. Better Speed and SpAtt, Grass Knot/Energy Ball, and Tail Glow > CM, definitely better than Suicune's slightly better bulk.
And LO Timid Suicune is a joke compared to Manaphy. Better Speed and SpAtt, Grass Knot/Energy Ball, and Tail Glow > CM, definitely better than Suicune's slightly better bulk.
I think you are all overstating your case and relying on pointless theorymon to determine Manaphy's status.
Yes, the thing is powerful, but like anything else needs testing to determine this. I remember fighting Manaphy and it really didn't take too much effort to defeat it, people are just reluctant to change their tactics. For starters, manaphy's base 100 speed is too slow to sweep unless you are winning to use the Sub / TG / Surf / Ice Beam set that I posted and use it with a Salac Berry, even then you become prone to priority moves because you aren't Empoleon and resist them.
So how do you kill this thing?
Manaphy is going to die to Electric and Grass moves just like any other water pokemon. Stop bitching about how Grass Knot does shit to him. Use Energy ball....
So what are some pokemon faster than manaphy that deal a ton of damage to it?
Specs Latios Thunderbolt
Jolteon
Choice Specs Jolteon (OHKO)
Sceptile
Shaymin-S
Raikou (can Calm Mind, yay!)
Manectric (not OU, but oh well)
Ok... now look at shit that can do major damage w/ Choice Scarf
Zapdos
Roserade
Venusaur
Pretty much any electric or Grass pokemon, dammit!
Speed ties?
Celebi, Zapdos, Shaymin-L
I don't see this thing being nearly as broken as everyone says. Use mono-rain tail glow... cool, Vaporeon and Toxicroak wall you. Use Tail Glow Life Orb, cool faster pokemon revenge you. No different from any other suspect.
Yes, the thing is powerful, but like anything else needs testing to determine this. I remember fighting Manaphy and it really didn't take too much effort to defeat it, people are just reluctant to change their tactics. For starters, manaphy's base 100 speed is too slow to sweep unless you are winning to use the Sub / TG / Surf / Ice Beam set that I posted and use it with a Salac Berry, even then you become prone to priority moves because you aren't Empoleon and resist them.
So how do you kill this thing?
Manaphy is going to die to Electric and Grass moves just like any other water pokemon. Stop bitching about how Grass Knot does shit to him. Use Energy ball....
So what are some pokemon faster than manaphy that deal a ton of damage to it?
Specs Latios Thunderbolt
Jolteon
Choice Specs Jolteon (OHKO)
Sceptile
Shaymin-S
Raikou (can Calm Mind, yay!)
Manectric (not OU, but oh well)
Ok... now look at shit that can do major damage w/ Choice Scarf
Zapdos
Roserade
Venusaur
Pretty much any electric or Grass pokemon, dammit!
Speed ties?
Celebi, Zapdos, Shaymin-L
I don't see this thing being nearly as broken as everyone says. Use mono-rain tail glow... cool, Vaporeon and Toxicroak wall you. Use Tail Glow Life Orb, cool faster pokemon revenge you. No different from any other suspect.
People often forget Manaphy's crappy 100 base sp. atk, which means he's forced to Tail Glow every time he's switches in.
Also, his speed isn't that great either, it's very easy to force him out. Add Life Orb, SR and possibly Sandstorm, and he will get revenge killed by anything with a good STAB, or just self destroying due to recoil like Gyarados and Lucario frequently does.
Also, his speed isn't that great either, it's very easy to force him out. Add Life Orb, SR and possibly Sandstorm, and he will get revenge killed by anything with a good STAB, or just self destroying due to recoil like Gyarados and Lucario frequently does.
I wouldn't really call base 100 sp. atk crappy, would you? Base 100 is fine for a stat that's going to get a +2 boost anyway. It doesn't require Tail Glow to threaten anything weak to Surf, and it's not as easy to force out as you say it is. Zapdos needs 232 sp atk EVs (assuming bold/calm) to guarantee a OHKO on 0/0 neutral Manaphy, with SR down. Timid LO Manaphy does 94.82% minimum to 252HP/0 sp def neutral Zapdos with Tail Glow'd Surf, at worst speed ties, and in most cases, outspeeds.
While that's just one example, I'm sure there are very few pokemon who could even come close doing that to Calm Manaphy or something. Hell, LO Timid Zapdos Thunderbolt does 69.80 - 82.18% to 252/252 Calm Manaphy.
While that's just one example, I'm sure there are very few pokemon who could even come close doing that to Calm Manaphy or something. Hell, LO Timid Zapdos Thunderbolt does 69.80 - 82.18% to 252/252 Calm Manaphy.
Just for a bit of play-experience...Manaphy was easily the best Pokemon in Warthog's Deoxys-S / Manaphy / Wobbuffet / Latios / Latias allowed tournament.
I easily dealt with all the other threats but I really had to work with Manaphy (surprisingly, I didn't face a Wobbuffet so scratch that from the list).
It's really just a sum total of all the things Manaphy can do, from Sub CM -> Sub TG requiring different methods to beat, from Offensive LO CM Manaphy being more destructive than the Suicune variant (not to suggest that it is too destructive) to a stall based, defensive Toxic set taking advantage of a useful Water typing and nice stats.
Still, I think this is really questionable and certainly deserves to be tested again.
I easily dealt with all the other threats but I really had to work with Manaphy (surprisingly, I didn't face a Wobbuffet so scratch that from the list).
It's really just a sum total of all the things Manaphy can do, from Sub CM -> Sub TG requiring different methods to beat, from Offensive LO CM Manaphy being more destructive than the Suicune variant (not to suggest that it is too destructive) to a stall based, defensive Toxic set taking advantage of a useful Water typing and nice stats.
Still, I think this is really questionable and certainly deserves to be tested again.
If you read the post it was assuming Phione got banned for HydroRest which i stated i didn't know if it did, wasn't talking about Phione as a sweeper, which it isn't
I dunno i just think it needs to be tested in the new Metagame, I think we need a fierce Special Sweeper to get the game off that dammned Scizor, not suggesting the central of the game should be Manaphy, but it at the least should be tested.
Manaphy is the entire reason to use Energy ball. Energy ball was standard before he was banned then everyone pretty much agree'd "Why Energy Ball? Manaphy is banned now. Use GK"
I think if Skymin and Lati's are OU.. That Manaphy has a good chance at OU. This would also leave room for Garchomp to come back. I think the 'less bans' is the best way to go for our Metagame. But only time will tell.
I think if Skymin and Lati's are OU.. That Manaphy has a good chance at OU. This would also leave room for Garchomp to come back. I think the 'less bans' is the best way to go for our Metagame. But only time will tell.
I'd love to see lati, skymin and manaphy in the same team.Total pwnage it would be.
a bit life orb Starmie weak?
Your list is pretty short, and includes many things that are either BL or below, or extremely uncommon OU sets. I think that you are underestimating Manaphy's bulk; as I said in my previous post, try taking out Celebi and Jirachi with only netural moves, and you get a good idea of how hard it is to take out by most revenge killers. As you said, faster pokemon revenge kill you, but there are few Pokemon that either sport the moves in order to do this, and few that also have the power as well. Grass switchins can be killed by a predicted Ice Beam, which is what the smart Manaphy player would do. And this is only one set, RainRest, Sub sets and Stallers present their own threats. Manaphy resists most pritory moves, such as Bullet Punch and Ice Shard. And for the record, most Vaporeon aren't completely raped by Zapdos if they are running a few Special Defense EVs (which they should, but thats for a different thread) I don't think your giving Manaphy enough credit; it can sweep really well, and it really is a huge threat.
so does shaymin-L, which means shaymin-S could learn it.
i don't play on shoddy, is shaymin-S allowed to know earth power?
anyways, my thoughts:
i would love to see manaphy tested.
i've never played against him, but i'm just theorymoning that he really can't 'do everything'...
if he sets up rain or tries to abuse rest he loses coverage, but i can see the argument that all he really needs is surf.
but in addtion to that, he already to use tail glow before he can do any real damage. all of this requires at least 2 turns to set up (three if someone else does it), so he's losing time in the rain to even abuse hydrorest--you can't do it on the last turn of rain.
but like i said. i just want to actually test for myself.
in addition to that, i would like to see some other sets used. a dive, toxic, rest, acid armor/rain dance staller would be interesting.
i have a jolly life orb manaphy with return, waterfall, u-turn and rest but haven't been able to see how effective that set could really be.
yeah cuz preparing for what will probably be the number 1 used threat in peoples eyes is "over centralizing" but honestly if lati@s doesnt go OU i dont think manaphy could. manaphy would also give reason to use psych up regice if lati go's OU
he counters lati@s, manaphy, skymin and any calm minder
assuming all those 3 even stay OU lol
there are two priority moves that manaphy resists, which are the ones that you listed.
i know that most can be somewhat subjective, but i'm not sure i would use that term.
but you have a point. a max Atk adamant Lucario (after 1 SD) with Life Orb only does 72% max to an 80 HP Manaphy,
but a Jolly max Atk Lucario will always outspeed the same Manaphy and do 105.54% - 124.10% after one SD with ThunderPunch
a timid life orb starmie will do 86.98% - 102.22% with Thunder, or 63.16% - 74.24% with Thunderbolt, giving a guaranteed 2HKO and small chance of OHKO with Thunder
a nonbulky star cannot switch in on any attack after it's used Tail Glow however as Surf and Energy Ball/Grass Knot will always KO with room to spare, but it can switch in during rain dance or tail glow and start firing away while manaphy is virtually helpless and an unboosted Energy Ball/Grass Knot will only do 64.50% - 75.95% without Life Orb. with Life Orb there is a small chance to KO if Stealth Rock/Spikes/Toxic Spikes are out as it does 83.97% - 98.85%
keep in mind this is against a 4 HP Timid starmie, so a bulkier version could survive and still 2HKO while Manaphy is trying to set up... i'll do some calcs later on that though.
I didn't. In fact no matter how hard I try I still can't get it to learn those moves you listed.
No, Manaphy always outruns Lucario at 308 speed. And Lucario doesn't need Thunderpunch to OHKO anyway.
Don't know about you, but the main reason I pack Tentacruel is because of Rapid Spin and Toxic Spikes, since it sucks at hurting anything else. You can't Haze if you have Rapid Spin. So either you sacrifice one of the most desired moves in the game, or you are just Manaphy's set up bait, since Tentacruel really doesn't hurt Manaphy at all, and Manaphy can just get +6.
The problem is that those Pokemon are ranging from pretty bleh to pretty crap. And Toxicroak dies to +2 Ice Beam at any rate.
I'm all for testing Manaphy, but I'm leaning more towards uber than OU. Its similarities with Garchomp are scary, the lack of a 4x weakness even moreso. Everything else I'd say has been said already.
that manaphy only outruns adamant lucario, not jolly.
with 80 HP it has 290 speed. and it was just an example. if ThunderPunch OHKO's then obviously Close Combat would as well. the main thing i got from it was that he barely manages a OHKO and needs to set up before manaphy to do so at any rate.
edit: i was talking about modest manaphy, sorry if i didn't make that clear in my first post.
i can definitely agree with this. although tentacruel can absorb hits well, he does nothing in return and can't boost his special stats at all and aside from HP Electric/Grass and Giga Drain, he can't hit for SE. and Sludge Bomb does more or almost as much anyway.
he can't status manaphy as he'll just cure at the end of the turn. about the only thing i can see he can do is use Hail to get rid of the rain. which, as you've said about Haze, limits his other more common intended purposes.
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