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Discussion Thread -- MANAPHY
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Aren't you really forgetting anything?
And Tail Glow, which would nullify Jumpluff's resistance to Water, and also its pitiful defenses...
It could work if Jumpluff had Leaf Storm+120 Sp. Attack, but only so.
It could work if Jumpluff had Leaf Storm+120 Sp. Attack, but only so.
lol.
Kingdra is a somewhat dodgy counter, but here goes:
a +1 180 HP max Atk adamant kingdra with Life Orb does 94.18% - 110.80% with Outrage to an 80 HP Manaphy
(72.30% - 85.32% without Life Orb,
57.62% - 67.87% with Life Orb but no Dragon Dance,
48.48% - 57.06% without Dragon Dance or Life Orb)
while a +2 Life Orb modest manaphy does 43.15% - 50.89% with Surf in the rain
76.79% - 90.48% with Ice Beam and 80.95% - 95.24% with Grass Knot to the same Kingdra.
(59.23% - 69.64% and 62.20% - 73.21% respectively, without Life Orb)
but that leaves kingdra open for abuse as he's locked into an outrage, but with swift swim, he will always go first when facing manaphy.
Kingdra can 2HKO with Draco Meteor, so why use Outrage anyway, its a terrible move (thats another discussion anyway).
I think you are overestimating Manaphy's bulk. There is a terrible misconception that base stats mean everything when the most siginifcant stat is the one that is achieved after EVs. If you are running an 80 HP / 176 Spe / 252 Sp Atk spread (which will be very common), you are now 12% less bulky than a 252 HP Manaphy... yup, that is quite a bit actually. If you run 252 HP, then guess what! Your not maxing Speed or attack, so someone is most likely faster than you or can survive your assaults. Look at normal STAB attacks vs. an 80 HP Manaphy from some common Scarfers
Jolly CS Heracross Close Combat: 54-64%
Timid Porygon-Z Tri Attack (Download): 56-66%
Timid Porygon-Z Tri Attack (Adaptability): 50-60%
Timid Porygon-Z Hyper Beam (Adaptability, I saw someone use this for Chomp, lol): 93-110%
Adamant CS Flygon Outrage: 50-59%
Adamant CS Salamence Outrage: 61-72%
Timid CS Gengar Thunderbolt: 58-68%
Timid Porygon-Z Thunderbolt (Download, better pack a spDef EV): 88-104%
Now, these are ordinary scarfers, pretty much all of them are used regularly even though Heatran steals the spotlight. I really don't see manaphy as being anymore threatening than Garchomp was.
I'm not saying Manaphy is mediocre or anything, you guys are just giving the damn thing too much credit all based on theorymon.
And while you guys are hyping up the Tail Glow, Surf, Rest, Rain Dance set, stop drooling for a minute and just use something simpler:
Tail Glow, Surf, Ice Beam, Grass Knot @ Life Orb.... easy as cake, effective as hell.
I think you are overestimating Manaphy's bulk. There is a terrible misconception that base stats mean everything when the most siginifcant stat is the one that is achieved after EVs. If you are running an 80 HP / 176 Spe / 252 Sp Atk spread (which will be very common), you are now 12% less bulky than a 252 HP Manaphy... yup, that is quite a bit actually. If you run 252 HP, then guess what! Your not maxing Speed or attack, so someone is most likely faster than you or can survive your assaults. Look at normal STAB attacks vs. an 80 HP Manaphy from some common Scarfers
Jolly CS Heracross Close Combat: 54-64%
Timid Porygon-Z Tri Attack (Download): 56-66%
Timid Porygon-Z Tri Attack (Adaptability): 50-60%
Timid Porygon-Z Hyper Beam (Adaptability, I saw someone use this for Chomp, lol): 93-110%
Adamant CS Flygon Outrage: 50-59%
Adamant CS Salamence Outrage: 61-72%
Timid CS Gengar Thunderbolt: 58-68%
Timid Porygon-Z Thunderbolt (Download, better pack a spDef EV): 88-104%
Now, these are ordinary scarfers, pretty much all of them are used regularly even though Heatran steals the spotlight. I really don't see manaphy as being anymore threatening than Garchomp was.
I'm not saying Manaphy is mediocre or anything, you guys are just giving the damn thing too much credit all based on theorymon.
And while you guys are hyping up the Tail Glow, Surf, Rest, Rain Dance set, stop drooling for a minute and just use something simpler:
Tail Glow, Surf, Ice Beam, Grass Knot @ Life Orb.... easy as cake, effective as hell.
right, good point. i wasn't really thinking, but i still say Kingdra could effectively counter/revenge kill manaphy and i guess Draco Meteor is better anyway.
edit:
i just checked and a modest, max spatk life orb draco meteor only does 73.41% - 86.43%
edit2: nm, i thought you put OHKO
I agree with Syb here. Screw trying to get manaphy to do everything. Tail Glow/Surf/Ice Beam/Energy Ball would make a terrific special sweeper right there.
Rain Dance/Rest/Tail Glow/Surf might not sweep whole teams, but you better bet it is going to be a beast to take down, and if you lose your water resist, you're in deep shit.
Double Screen + 2 Attacks might not be sweeping whole teams either, but it could be a great team player and quite annoying.
Water/Ice nor Water/Grass may be perfect coverage, but I think we've seen you don't need perfect coverage to be at the top of OU. Never stopped Scizor, Gyara or Luke.
because amnesia/iron defense get f'd by crits and haze is a crappy move?
status against manaphy really sort of fails though unless it's the last turn of rain
mirror coat is a good option though for tentacruel at least. milotic i think will really hate grass knot and energy ball.
not to mention that milotic is pretty much worthless against any except an all-out offensive team. At least things like Vappy/tentacrue/swampert have something to do (wish/t-spike/SR respectively).
Fixed. I know Rain teams will become popular once Manaphy's suspect testing begins, but aren't you being a little too confident that there will be ALWAYS rain on the field? What happened to Abomasnow, Hippowdon and mainly Tyranitar?
no, but considering his ability, when building a team and trying to use status as an effective counter for Manaphy seems a bit silly, no?
i didn't mean to seem confident rain was always going to be in place, it's just a very likely possibility and therefore status is an unreliable counter (imo), just like moonlight on cresselia is not recommended due to the abundance of tyranitar or charizard/moltres not used as often due to stealth rock.
sure there is the possibility of really screwing up manaphy with status, just like someone has the possibility of getting off bellyzard, but i'd guess the chances are pretty slim. obviously this is all theorymon, but my point still stands that creating a counter with an intent to status manaphy is more times than not, not accomplish that goal.
And it's exactly for the abundance of Tyranitar that Manaphy won't be safe.
will tyranitar really switch into manaphy though?
i know he has a big chance of starting the sand, but once manaphy starts setting up, he can't do much other than stop the rain and eat surfs
edit: a +2 timid 252 SPAtk manaphy does 108.98% - 128.18% to a 240 HP / 184 SPDef Tyranitar in Sandstorm with Surf
and 55.11% - 64.84% without a tailglow
edit2: nm, that didn't take account SPDef boost of Sandstorm, so i did it manually.
37.16% - 43.64% without Tail Glow, 73.07% - 85.79% with
Well, that's a point. However, it's sure that either Manaphy will set up its own rain (giving it a movelost syndrome), or somebody else on the team which should deal with Tyranitar (and Hippowdon/Abomasnow to an extent). I always find hard to use a strategy that gets screwed just by a simple switch-in, but as we're talking about Tail Glow'ed Surfs, maybe it's would be safer to, huh, play fire with fire (that is, use their only rain abusers like Kingdra).
yeah, that's what i suggested earlier, Kingdra makes a decent manaphy counter IMO quad resisting STAB and only taking neutral from everything else he can through at him.
Ludicolo could be rather effective as well i should think, but i haven't bothered to do any calculations as he's not really that common.
Wait, what's Tyranitar going to do to Manaphy once it switches in? Switch out while Manaphy attempts to get another Tail Glow or stay in and be 2HKO'd by a Tail Glow boosted Surf, 2HKO'd by Surf if it switches in on one or Energy Ball or, pray that it uses Rest or that it's running Ice Beam.
um well that was my point for posting those calculations.
tyranitar makes a terrible counter for manaphy for anything more than changing the weather as even the bulkiest tyranitar is easily dispatch by manaphy
if you can predict him using rest tar switching in can really screw him up though, but it's a bit risky and requires a lot of prediction.
and i don't know why manaphy would use anything else other than Surf against tyranitar.
if manaphy uses tail glow and has life orb equiped, which it should, tyranitar will be OHKOd. so switching in tyranitar to manaphy is not a good idea, because if its the TG sweeper set tyraitar, and the entire team, is fucked
I love playing Ubers and I actually have seen Manaphy used there a few times. It has decent survivability there (which translates to amazing survivability in OU), but I don't think I've ever lost a pokemon to it. I'm extremely curious to see how it'll test on the ladder. While all of this is pure theorymon, I think it may be some of the most enjoyable theorymon I've seen in quite a while. This is really the stuff that Suspect testing was made for.
i'm not saying it's not a possible counter, just that it's not a reliable counter.
but of course i admit that this all theorymon on my part and also admit that raindance-less manaphy could become quite popular while the hydro-rest set is thrown to the side.
but manaphy's set doesn't really matter much if someone sets up rain for him.
but then again, rain might not be an issue if he's not using rest anyway.
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