Discussion Thread -- MANAPHY

[EvilMario]

Manaphy's best set will come when others setup Rain for it; it really needs three attacks to be 'uber' threatening. It could work well for stalling as well. If you think SubSeeding Skymin is annoying, just wait for HydroResting Manaphy placed on a good team.

Still, I'd like to see it in OU. It will increase the number of Rain Dance teams, and PROBABLY increase the number of Hail based teams, thanks to Abomasnow being one of the best Manaphy counters around.

 

[kuja20]

Manaphy's best set will come when others setup Rain for it; it really needs three attacks to be 'uber' threatening. It could work well for stalling as well. If you think SubSeeding Skymin is annoying, just wait for HydroResting Manaphy placed on a good team.

Still, I'd like to see it in OU. It will increase the number of Rain Dance teams, and PROBABLY increase the number of Hail based teams, thanks to Abomasnow being one of the best Manaphy counters around.

Manaphy, in the rain is one of THE most annoying pokemon I have ever had the misfortune to face. Manaphy in OU is very interesting, mainly because it doesnt perform quite so well outside of rain, and we don't see, many OU rain dance teams.

If Manaphy comes to OU we will see a rise in Rain Dancing teams. Infact weather teams in gereral may be more recurring.

 

[Legacy Raider]

Has anyone noted how good a check Abomasnow can be for Manaphy?

Manaphy LO Surf vs Sassy 252/216 Abomasnow: 17.9 - 21.3% 6HKO with Leftovers
Manaphy LO Ice Beam vs Sassy 252/216 Abomasnow: 23.9 - 28.6% 5HKO with Leftovers

0 Atk Abomsnow Wood Hammer vs Manaphy: 70.3 - 83.3% easy 2HKO
0 Atk Abomsnow Seed Bomb vs Manaphy: 47.5 - 56.3 2HKO with Hail
40 SpA Abomsnow Energy Ball vs Manaphy: 49.2 - 58.6% 2HKO with Hail

Not only does it cancel out its Rain, Abomasnow can also take a considerable beating from all of Manaphy's attacks and hit back hard with Wood Hammer, Seed Bomb or Energy Ball.

LR.

 

[dr00]

thanks for the calculations, Legacy Rider. i suspected abomasnow would be a good counter.

i wonder if HP Fire manaphy might see some usage in responce to this.
i know i've seen one in a shop here and i always thought it was a bit silly as a hidden power, but now i definitely see the usefulness.

 

[PakGamer]

Or you could work with the rain to counter it.
Ludicolo is an excellent Manaphy counter, surf will do absolutely nothing to it and it can hit back with stab grass moves, plus it benefits from the rain with extra healing.
I don't think hydration was the reason that manaphy was banned.. I believe it was because of tail glow.
Either way, it definately needs a test.

 

[Legacy Raider]

Most Ludicolo, if not all Ludicolo, run Swift Swim over Rain Dish, so in most cases Ludicolo will be outspeeding Manaphy too. Energy Ball does 85-100% from an offensive Ludicolo.

Oh, and PakGamer,

mein bhi Lahore se hoon

LR.

 

[Chou Toshio]

Abamasnow sucks for anything else though . . . >>

Anyway the point about status being that whether or not it carries rain dance, Manaphy needs Rest to really abuse its ability. Offensive sets will find it annoying to try to fit that in.

"Who cares if it can be crippled by status?" Mewtwo would hate being paralyzed too. The fact is that with or without hydration, with excellent base stats, an excellent balanced typing for both offense and defense, potentially flawless coverage and a +2 offensive stat boosting move, Manaphy would make an excellent sweeper even if it doesn't do anything with hydration.

 

[1059860]

I'm pretty sure Kingdra can switch into Surf due to 4x resist and kill back, most likely guarenteed 2HKO with Draco Meteor or Outrage.

 

[zarator]

I'm pretty sure Kingdra can switch into Surf due to 4x resist and kill back, most likely guarenteed 2HKO with Draco Meteor or Outrage.

This works only if it rains. And trust me, Manaphy dont need Rain to sweep. Of course, it would fit very well on a RD team, but it would shine a lot more as a mid-game sweeper like Garchomp used to do in the past, clearing the field for the late game sweeper. Aside from Ludicolo and Abomasnow, there's no other true counter to the standard Tail Glow/Surf/Ice Beam/Energy Ball. This is way its worth testing, but I dont see enough around changing so much to specifically weaken the TG set

 

[bugmaniacbob]

Has anyone noted how good a check Abomasnow can be for Manaphy?

Manaphy LO Surf vs Sassy 252/216 Abomasnow: 17.9 - 21.3% 6HKO with Leftovers
Manaphy LO Ice Beam vs Sassy 252/216 Abomasnow: 23.9 - 28.6% 5HKO with Leftovers
Manaphy LO Signal Beam vs Sassy 252/252 Abomasnow: 41.15 - 48.44% 2HKO with Stealth Rock + Leftovers

0 Atk Abomsnow Wood Hammer vs Manaphy: 70.3 - 83.3% easy 2HKO
0 Atk Abomsnow Seed Bomb vs Manaphy: 47.5 - 56.3 2HKO with Hail
40 SpA Abomsnow Energy Ball vs Manaphy: 49.2 - 58.6% 2HKO with Hail

Not only does it cancel out its Rain, Abomasnow can also take a considerable beating from all of Manaphy's attacks and hit back hard with Wood Hammer, Seed Bomb or Energy Ball.

LR.

I'm not saying that Abomosnow isn't an excellent Manaphy counter, but would you mind running some calculations for Signal Beam on Ludicolo and Abomosnow?

I'm fairly sure LO Signal Beam is a 2HKO on max/max Abomosnow and occasionally a 2HKO on max/max Ludicolo.

Also, you should have put Manaphy's LO recoil on your calculations, so Abomosnow always 2HKO's any Manaphy that stays in play.

EDIT: Also, why has nobody mentioned physical/mixed Manaphy yet? It can do quite a lot to Ludi with U-turn.

 

[Legacy Raider]

Abomsnow always 2HKOs Manaphy anyway because of Hail damage.

And where would Manaphy find space to run Signal Beam? If it drops any of its moves from its Tail Glow set (Surf, Ice Beam, Grass Knot, Tail Glow) it doesn't get perfect coverage.

And I think the reason why Manaphy's physical sets aren't being mentioned is because they're crap. When you have Nasty Plot and all these options, who's going to run a physical set? You don't see physical sweeping Celebi at all, do you? Even though it learns Swords Dance, Baton Pass, Seed Bomb and Zen Headbutt.

LR.

 

[bugmaniacbob]

Abomsnow always 2HKOs Manaphy anyway because of Hail damage.

And where would Manaphy find space to run Signal Beam? If it drops any of its moves from its Tail Glow set (Surf, Ice Beam, Grass Knot, Tail Glow) it doesn't get perfect coverage.

And I think the reason why Manaphy's physical sets aren't being mentioned is because they're crap. When you have Nasty Plot and all these options, who's going to run a physical set? You don't see physical sweeping Celebi at all, do you? Even though it learns Swords Dance, Baton Pass, Seed Bomb and Zen Headbutt.

LR.

Surely Manaphy can't just run one set? If it has this set of Grass-types that are counters, why not run Signal Beam?

Your thing about physical sets. They aren't that bad, but I would have suggested a mixed set more than a physical one. It's like saying Sceptile can't have a Special Sweeper set because it has Swords Dance and Leaf Blade.

I used to run a Swords Dance Celebi, actually. It was fairly good, I just couldn't decide between Leaf Storm and Recover in the final slot...

 

[mien]

Abamasnow sucks for anything else though . . . >>

Raikou, Swampert, Kyogre, Vaporeon, Milotic, Magnezone, Suicune, Jolteon, Lugia, Celebi, Giratina,Blissey....
Possibly the toughest pokemon to switch into without gaining significant damage from Leech seed/Blizzard/Focus punch

Aboma is so underrated >_> stupid SR

 

[Legacy Raider]

Surely Manaphy can't just run one set? If it has this set of Grass-types that are counters, why not run Signal Beam?

Your thing about physical sets. They aren't that bad, but I would have suggested a mixed set more than a physical one. It's like saying Sceptile can't have a Special Sweeper set because it has Swords Dance and Leaf Blade.
..

Like I said, Manaphy will find it very hard to drop any of its other moves. Surf and Tail Glow are non-negotiable. Without Ice Beam it will struggle with Salamence and *shock horror* Skymin. Without Grass Knot it won't be doing much to any bulky waters. If it could run 5 moves then sure, Signal Beam would be a better option. But I don't think it can sacrifice one of its other moves to get a slightly stronger hit on 2 pokemon.

I don't think your Sceptile analogy is the best for comparing to Manaphy. Special attacks are very viable on Sceptile because it's SpA base is higher than its Atk base, and it has access to Leaf Storm. Comparing Manaphy's physical sets to its special sets is like comparing Specs Weavile to SD Weavile.

LR.

 

[dr00]

Abamasnow sucks for anything else though . . . >>

yeah ;/

I'm pretty sure Kingdra can switch into Surf due to 4x resist and kill back, most likely guarenteed 2HKO with Draco Meteor or Outrage.

it does. i posted calculations a bit higher. the main problem is kingdra is forced out from confusion or SPAtk drops in most cases. if he's mixed or has a lum berry, it won't be as much of a problem though i guess.

EDIT: Also, why has nobody mentioned physical/mixed Manaphy yet? It can do quite a lot to Ludi with U-turn.

i have a physical manaphy
manaphy - life orb
nature: jolly
80 HP / 252 Atk / 176 Spd
- waterfall
- return
- uturn
- rest
i haven't done any calculations yet though.

i was also wondering why noone's mentioned any physical sets or, as someone else said, mixed sets.
or also toxic-stalling sets or support sets with double screens, rain set up for the rest of the team (crazy, i know), his signature move Heart Swap, and he also gets knock off now from platinum

Like I said, Manaphy will find it very hard to drop any of its other moves. Surf and Tail Glow are non-negotiable. Without Ice Beam it will struggle with Salamence and *shock horror* Skymin. Without Grass Knot it won't be doing much to any bulky waters. If it could run 5 moves then sure, Signal Beam would be a better option. But I don't think it can sacrifice one of its other moves to get a slightly stronger hit on 2 pokemon.

if he wants to use hydrorest he already deals with this problem though, yeah?

if someone has another effective counter for bulky waters or mence/skymin, they could fit signal beam in knowing that certain grass types would effectively wall them.

a +2 252 SPAtk timid manaphy with life orb does 56.23% - 66.20% to 120 HP Mence without the rain, it's a 2HKO even without Ice Beam

i will agree that in most cases that Ice Beam will probably be better, but if Celebi is particularly a problem, Signal Beam could be a very good alternative.

 

[Twisted Kneebar]

yeah ;/

it does. i posted calculations a bit higher. the main problem is kingdra is forced out from confusion or SPAtk drops in most cases. if he's mixed or has a lum berry, it won't be as much of a problem though i guess.

i have a physical manaphy
manaphy - life orb
nature: jolly
80 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
- waterfall
- return
- uturn
- rest
i haven't done any calculations yet though.

i was also wondering why noone's mentioned any physical sets or, as someone else said, mixed sets.
or also toxic-stalling sets or support sets with double screens, rain set up for the rest of the team (crazy, i know), his signature move Heart Swap, and he also gets knock off now from platinum

if he wants to use hydrorest he already deals with this problem though, yeah?

if someone has another effective counter for bulky waters or mence/skymin, they could fit signal beam in knowing that certain grass types would effectively wall them.

a +2 252 SPAtk timid manaphy with life orb does 56.23% - 66.20% to 120 HP Mence without the rain, it's a 2HKO even without Ice Beam

i will agree that in most cases that Ice Beam will probably be better, but if Celebi is particularly a problem, Signal Beam could be a very good alternative.

80/252/252?
physical sucks because of no stat boosting off a pretty (very) average attack stat
if anything people will use it for the surprise and get a surprise KO

 

[dr00]

80/252/252?
physical sucks because of no stat boosting off a pretty (very) average attack stat
if anything people will use it for the surprise and get a surprise KO

oh, sorry. 176 Spd


and yeah, i've never used him except just playing around on PBR. i don't expect he'd be very effective, and that's why i gave him UTurn so he could switch to a counter.

i think a mixed manaphy might be somewhat useful though

 

[Chou Toshio]

Hmm . . . well I'd tell you first think about how hard flygon hits. Even with +ATK and 252, it ain't all that scary unless the enemies are already weakened. Now imagine manaphy, with much worse moves, STAB on only water, and splitting its offensive EVs into both special attack and physical attack.

Overall, mix-manaphy just doesn't sound that scary to me.

 

[Alaka]

physical manaphy is actually really useful, it allows it to take out alot of its counters (blissey works well to stall out the rain set because it can just recover over and over unti the rain ends if its not setting up its own rain), and i really think signal beam (or u-turn) would be a good option to take out its counters, i reseted for one a while ago (its in meh thread lol) and its really useful

also i think having it in ou will not only increase the number of rain teams it will also diversify the rain teams whose only trick now is swift swim

also it'll make more blisseys carry t-bolt instead of ice beam

 

[ultimifier]

dude, blissey is quite possibly the WORST pokemon you could send in on manaphy if you do not know its set. manaphy tail glows as you switch in blissey. yay, you think, its not the hydro rest set. manaphy uses rain dance as you use whatever useless move you do. and now its pretty much game over.

who will physical manaphy kill that special manaphy cant?? please let me know...

 

[1059860]

yeah ;/

it does. i posted calculations a bit higher. the main problem is kingdra is forced out from confusion or SPAtk drops in most cases. if he's mixed or has a lum berry, it won't be as much of a problem though i guess.

Kingdra can hold White Herb to retain once of SPAtk Drop...

 

[dr00]

Hmm . . . well I'd tell you first think about how hard flygon hits. Even with +ATK and 252, it ain't all that scary unless the enemies are already weakened. Now imagine manaphy, with much worse moves, STAB on only water, and splitting its offensive EVs into both special attack and physical attack.

well my choice band Flygon is a beast.
...but i see your point.

Overall, mix-manaphy just doesn't sound that scary to me.

i don't think he sounds all that scary either, just that he might have some use.
what amount of use, i don't know and you've definitely dashed much of my expectations.

personally i think there's a lot of potential in the stall/support sets though.

Kingdra can hold White Herb to retain once of SPAtk Drop...

i was thinking about putting that in, but he's still got a stat drop in the end and has effectively wasted his White Herb as Draco Meteor 2HKO's with the drop.
i'll do some calcs for Dragon Pulse, will edit in a sec.

edit: here they are. a 252 modest life orb kingdra will do 47.65% - 55.96% to an 80 HP manaphy
guaranteed 2HKO if manaphy has Life Orb, if manaphy is abusing hydro rest, that 3HKO possibility will really screw you over.



good call though. when i'm feeling a bit like living on the edge and not scared of status, i'll run white herb instead of lum berry on my kingdra.

 

[Storm FTW]

Why is there talk of physical Manaphy? what a waste. Do any of you realize how bad of an idea mixed/physical Manaphy is? Why waste Manaphy's ability to use Tail Glow on some Gimmicky set that might kill Blissey?

And you all say Abomasnow this and that like there's no option for Manaphy to switch...

Also, Chou, Scarf Aboma in Ubers ftw. Gets Surprise kills and counters Kyogre quite well with changing the weather and resisting surf and whatnot.

 

[Mario With Lasers]

And you all say Abomasnow this and that like there's no option for Manaphy to switch...

Well, this means Aboma countered it, so it's better than let it get a Tail Glow for free!

 

[Chou Toshio]

well my choice band Flygon is a beast.
...but i see your point.

Don't get me wrong, I'm completely aware that Flygon ought to now be considered one of the top threats of the OU metagame.

personally i think there's a lot of potential in the stall/support sets though.

Agreed. 100/100/100 is very bulky, and when combined with 100 speed and water (excellent defensive typing), bulky-water-phy will definitely be a bitch.