[DONE] Uncompetitive Strategies [Baton Pass]

atomicllamas said:
Speed + Other Boosts + Baton Pass can also be banned at find a battle as well (as long as BP is still limited to one user per team, which I've kind of been posting under the assumption it would be, if thats not the case then the other proposal is probably superior). I mean how much harder is it to understand "X is banned because the combination of Baton Pass, a speed boosting item / ability / move, and a item / ability / move that boosts other stats are banned" than "Y is banned because the combination of Baton Pass and a speed boosting item / ability / move are banned". I mean its basically the same thing, and if you don't understand the former, I'm not sure how well someone would understand the latter.
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I guess you are right. As long as the team builder alerts the user that X is banned because of the combination of Baton Pass, a speed boosting item / ability / move, and an item / ability / move that boosts other stats are banned, there won't be an issue. I didn't think of this possibility because people were discussing about graying the button or stuff like that in case the BP + speed boosts + other boosts ban was applied.
 
atomicllamas said:
Speed + Other Boosts + Baton Pass can also be banned at find a battle as well (as long as BP is still limited to one user per team, which I've kind of been posting under the assumption it would be, if thats not the case then the other proposal is probably superior). I mean how much harder is it to understand "X is banned because the combination of Baton Pass, a speed boosting item / ability / move, and a item / ability / move that boosts other stats are banned" than "Y is banned because the combination of Baton Pass and a speed boosting item / ability / move are banned". I mean its basically the same thing, and if you don't understand the former, I'm not sure how well someone would understand the latter.
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I was personally operating under the assumption that we didn't need to restrict BP to one user per team after this change.

If we do, I'm fine with passing Speed as long as nothing else is passed.
 
Can someone just briefly update me on where the majority stand now?

This thread + irc has been a little flimsy at times.

We agree that nothing needs to be done for GSC.

It seems like we agree that for ADV, for now, nothing needs to be done, though BP in relation to Smeargle might be a "thing" to consider? But still, general feeling is don't do anything.

For DPP, GlisPass is the main issue. We have to discuss whether doing a BP + Speed ban is desirable.

For BW, we have come to the agreement that BP chains are an issue, but we haven't settled on how to deal with it. Lavos also made a thread addressing BW BP specifically.

For ORAS, we agree that something more needs to be done to BP. Some people (like mcmeghan / am / aim on the council), want to ban BP entirely. Some people want to ban BP + any speed boost. Others want to ban BP + speed boost + anything else.

There is a strong chance that the ban / nerf applied in ORAS will also apply to BW, but this isn't confirmed.

Have I summarized general sentiments across the generations correctly? Is there something I am mistaken about? Is there more detail to be added?
 
Zarel said:
I was personally operating under the assumption that we didn't need to restrict BP to one user per team after this change.

If we do, I'm fine with passing Speed as long as nothing else is passed.
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I think the reason they're concerned, Zarel, is that if you implement the ban as Speed Boost/Agility/Salac/etc + Swords Dance/Iron Defense/Nasty Plot/etc + Baton pass, there's nothing that stops the player from using Agility Pass -> mon with Swords Dance Pass -> ultimate receiver.

Unless you're somehow checking the boosting moves and baton pass on the entire team at once, which seems rather complicated. You probably for logistical reasons need to keep the 1 mon baton pass in place.
 
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On phone rn so not gonna make this elaborate, but when and why did we settle for the idea that a complex ban is the only way around the issue at hand? As far as I am concerned, full BP in ORAS OU relies heavily on a couple of threats to be as good as it is; eliminate the most problematic one and full BP won't hope to be a viable strategy in the hands of anyone not named dEnIsSsS

I refer to the post I made in this thread a couple of pages ago. If a simple ban rids us of the problem, a complex ban is undesirable, especially considering the proposed clauses tend to limit other strategies in OU and all other tiers (unless we forgo transitivity in BP clauses case, something I would recommend considering the fact BP chain are basically not a problem in any tier not names OU).
 
Assuming the simple bans you are referring to are Smeargle and Scolipede, I dont want to ban two non-broken pokemon so that we can delay having to deal with baton pass in its full form, and I believe there are a fair few who agree with me. A complex ban is not overly desirable, but when no simple ban will rid us of the problem so much as act as a plaster for a grenade wound, a complex ban is the way to go. And since people really want to keep Agilipass in ORAS, it has to be quite complex to ensure the minimum amount of collateral damage to non-broken sets.
 
Whimsicott @ Focus Sash
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 240 HP / 16 Def / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Taunt
- Tailwind
- Light Screen
- Memento

Smeargle @ Focus Sash
Ability: Own Tempo
EVs: 252 Def / 40 SpD / 216 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Spore
- Cotton Guard
- Ingrain
- Baton Pass

Sylveon @ Leftovers
Ability: Pixilate
EVs: 216 HP / 252 Def / 40 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Hyper Voice
- Stored Power
- Baton Pass

Espeon @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 200 HP / 56 Def / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stored Power
- Morning Sun
- Calm Mind
- Baton Pass

Vaporeon @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 192 HP / 252 Def / 64 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Roar
- Acid Armor
- Baton Pass

Mew @ Mental Herb
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 240 HP / 16 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Taunt
- Amnesia
- Tailwind
- Baton Pass


Description: I tried to build a team the least match up reliant as possible, which means it can deal fairly well against all common playstyles, and I had to have counter measures against Taunt users. I usually lead with Whimsicott as it provides me Tailwind support very reliably, allowing me to set up early game with Smeargle safely. Under Tailwind, Smeargle usually guarantees me a Cottom Guard boost as well as an sleeping opposing Pokemon. However, if my opponent has two strong priority users, this won't be possible because Smeargle relies on its Focus Sash to do its job,(In this case Vaporeon will be sent) Smeargle can also provide me Ingrain support if I'm facing Stall. Mew guarantees me at least one Amnesia boost thanks to its great bulk and Mental Herb + Taunt (it can deal with every single Taunt user). It can also renovate the Tailwind effects if necessary. Vaporeon is a reliable tank/phazer when passed +3 Def and +2 (or more) SpDef boosts and it can add more Defense boosts if necessary. If passed a Calm Mind boost it won't be to easy to stop it with Taunt users, as Scald can hurt those and even cripple them with a burn. Sylveon and Espeon are the win conditions. Both can boost with Calm Mind and sweep Stored Power.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gold-ubers-35710
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gold-ubers-35718
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gold-ubers-35725
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gold-ubers-35741

I feel like there is still room for improvement, but this is the best i could have done in a short ammount of time. Speed-less chains can clearly win games, so I still support the limit of users with the move Baton Pass in a team.

I think that a "BP + speed boosts + other boosts" and a limit to 1 BP user per team could be applied for all generations with minimal collateral damage.
 
PoMMan said:
Assuming the simple bans you are referring to are Smeargle and Scolipede, I dont want to ban two non-broken pokemon so that we can delay having to deal with baton pass in its full form, and I believe there are a fair few who agree with me.
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I don't have a ton to add on the main topic at hand, as I do not have the most experience with BP teams, but I want to chime in on the general policy idea that this sentence hits on, and why I vehemently disagree with it. Some people say that these Pokemon are non-broken, and banning them would not be an ideal solution, but that runs 100% counter to ever other Pokemon ban we have pretty much ever made. If a single set on a Pokemon breaks the game, that Pokemon is broken. That is how we have done it for every other Pokemon that has ever been banned. It doesn't matter that if we took away or restricted one move, the Pokemon might not be broken anymore. What matters is that, when used with some specific set, the Pokemon breaks the metagame. Saying that such broken Pokemon are "not broken" is based only on arbitrary assumptions of power and what tiers Pokemon "should" be in.

Now, I'm not going to say that Smeargle or Scolipede necessarily should be banned. Heck, I've always been in the camp that Baton Pass, even in a full chain, is a perfectly legitimate strategy, and is merely a victim of being late to the party to the extent that people don't think they should have to update existing team archetypes to have to deal with a new team archetype, and that somehow the old archetype is more valuable to the game than the new. But that is honestly besides the point. The point is that if there are really only two Pokemon that are causing a problem, and they are doing so in similar, but not the same way, using things that are perfectly fine and balanced on other Pokemon, then those Pokemon need to go. Claiming that they are "not broken" while simultaneously claiming that they break the game is hypocritical, and simply an attempt to shape the metagame to something that looks "right" regardless of what the proper policy should be.
 
Banning Smeargle and Scolipede won't solve the issue (it still possible to build a very strong BP chain without them). And there is also Smash Pass with Gorebyss...

dEnIsSsS said:
I guess I should also make it clear that I'm completely against banning certain mons as these same mons may have some kind of utility outside of Baton Pass sets. In ORAS Smeargle would probably drop from BL and the low tier players would probably find some reason to use it in their teams. Scolipede is also a very good Pokemon to use in offensive teams as a Spikes and Toxic Spikes user or a fast and strong Pokemon or maybe even as a revenge killer (with Protect). Banning Gorebyss sounds a little bit ridiculous. In DPP Gliscor definitely has stuff to do other than Double Dance + BP. Also quoting Triangles regarding the ADV generation: "Banning Smeargle is a terrible idea, you lose out on the perfectly competitive Suicide Spikes set - needless additional damage".
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jas61292 said:
I don't have a ton to add on the main topic at hand, as I do not have the most experience with BP teams, but I want to chime in on the general policy idea that this sentence hits on, and why I vehemently disagree with it. Some people say that these Pokemon are non-broken, and banning them would not be an ideal solution, but that runs 100% counter to ever other Pokemon ban we have pretty much ever made. If a single set on a Pokemon breaks the game, that Pokemon is broken. That is how we have done it for every other Pokemon that has ever been banned. It doesn't matter that if we took away or restricted one move, the Pokemon might not be broken anymore. What matters is that, when used with some specific set, the Pokemon breaks the metagame. Saying that such broken Pokemon are "not broken" is based only on arbitrary assumptions of power and what tiers Pokemon "should" be in.
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If it was just those two pokemon that were the problem, that would be the case in my opinion too, however in the case of baton pass it is not. Should we ban 5 or 6 pokemon that are in no way broken outside of baton pass (smeargle, scolipede, huntail, gorebyss, espeon, maybe more) instead of acknowledging that we are looking at the wrong thing here? I consider baton pass to be a similar thing as swagger was, although obviously not to the same extent, where banning klefki and thundurus and liepard wasn't the answer, but dealing with the broken elements of the move is.
 
full chains and glis pass are equally bad, it's just that the former are rarer; however when they were used in tour they were very much an issue and I've reaffirmed this belief after playing against some in the past few days. I can't imagine a scenario where the clause in the above post would tamper with the meta up at all so that's fine.

and yeah adv bp is fine. just the other day m dragon used a full chain against floppy for an roa tour and got absolutely eviscerated by pretty standard-ish offense. something similar happened when sapientia bp'd frizy in adv cup. I know, a grand total of two examples etc etc but that kind of team is really common and being able to do almost nothing against it isn't good, plus it's not even close to being the only kind of team that naturally troubles bp. as for belly pass, if one wants to make sure they don't lose to it they should do some practice matches since what the bp user has to do is very telegraphed and they will be fine. source: what I've done for the last 2 wcops when I was paranoid of it. even then, it's not hard to adapt on the fly, as undisputed did against kael in spl.
 
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Another wcop game lost to baton pass. This time, in ORAS, to smashpass.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-72765

I can't remember all the games with baton pass, but I know it has a way higher win percentage than loss percentage.


Granted, in this replay, it's arguable Blood misplayed. Personally I would've played it a bit differently, but I don't think he had a chance in the long-run anyway
 
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Zarel said:
So what happens now, anyway? Do we make a poll? Does some tier leader make an executive decision?

It seems like consensus is on "Limit 1 Baton Pass user; user must not have both a way to boost Speed and a way to boost other stats"?
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The OU Council is currently discussing this thread and will come to an executive decision for ORAS / BW in the coming hours.

DPP seems to be a bit more controversial both in the desire to do something and how to do anything if the desire is there, so anyone who feels particularly strongly about DPP BP is encouraged to make a separate thread for it.

We won't be implementing any change for BP in ADV / GSC for now.

I'm going to go ahead and close this thread for now; please open a separate DPP BP discussion thread to continue discussion for that metagame.

I'll post the OU Council's decision here soon.
 
OK

OU Council has the votes necessary to make a decision on BP for ORAS and BW.

It votes to "Limit 1 Baton Pass user; user must not have both a way to boost Speed and a way to boost other stats"

Just to emphasize, because again the IRC discussions for this went back and forth a bit, but this additional limitation should be implemented battling side in regards to selection and NOT in the team builder.

Meaning the user can have a quiver dance, agility, calm mind, baton pass smeargle on his team, and in battle, if he QDs, he cannot select baton pass, if he only agilities he can baton pass, if he only calm minds he can baton pass, and if he agilities and calm minds he cannot baton pass.

Zarel

Thank you all for the discussion, and thanks to McMeghan / Tesung / AM / ben gay / M Dragon for being involved in the discussions on the council.
 
I was looking to update a banlist and noticed that the simulator implementation of this ban does not coincide with Aldaron's last post on the subject. The teambuilder automatically prevents the existence of a method to boost Speed and a method to boost other stats on the same Pokemon. For example, Quiver Dance Smeargle is automatically banned. Mostly for posterity, I'd like to know for what reason this discrepancy exists. Was the final decision regarding this clause changed, or it was deemed too unfeasible to implement, or what?

edit: Thanks, I missed that thread because I searched for Baton Pass rather than BP.
 
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Eo Ut Mortus said:
I was looking to update a banlist and noticed that the simulator implementation of this ban does not coincide with Aldaron's last post on the subject. The teambuilder automatically prevents the existence of a method to boost Speed and a method to boost other stats on the same Pokemon. For example, Quiver Dance Smeargle is automatically banned. Mostly for posterity, I'd like to know for what reason this discrepancy exists. Was the final decision regarding this clause changed, or it was deemed too unfeasible to implement, or what?
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Aldaron's post is wrong; he misunderstood what the OU council actually wanted. Or, at least, I'm pretty sure that's the latest version of the story. I don't know the exact story because he gets mad when I ask him questions that imply he might've done something wrong. :/

Anyway, the OU council unanimously voted for the ban to be implemented in team validation, not in battle. Here's the relevant posts:

https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...-the-team-building-side.3543255/#post-6320003
 
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