The problem is that passive recovery isn't really as important in this meta where weather isn't common or permanent. Like Talpr0ne said, being able to handle physical hits from mixed attackers like Abomasnow is really important as well. And they both have Natural Cure/Aromatherapy, so neither of them really minded passive status damage in the first place. I don't think that aside from that very small and insignificant niche, Blissey has anything over Chansey.
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Pokémon Donphan
- Thread starter Milkshook
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The problem is that passive recovery isn't really as important in this meta where weather isn't common or permanent. Like Talpr0ne said, being able to handle physical hits from mixed attackers like Abomasnow is really important as well. And they both have Natural Cure/Aromatherapy, so neither of them really minded passive status damage in the first place. I don't think that aside from that very small and insignificant niche, Blissey has anything over Chansey.
the only this blissey has over chansey is the ability to run a special move eg flamethrower
Why are we discussing Blissey and Chansey in the Donphan thread? In all honesty, I believe Chansey is better, but I am not going to talk about that, but I will discuss Donphan. Donphan is a very niche Pokemon in OU, I know it has solid physical bulk, but as a Physical attacker / wall it is outclassed by Landorus-Therian, who has better stats everywhere bar HP, which is only by one point. It has more physical bulk due to Intimidate, just for example:
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Donphan: 150-177 (39 - 46%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T: 171-202 (44.7 - 52.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
This is just one example, but Landorus-T only needs 132 Defense EVs to be more physically bulky, but, Landorus-T can invest in any other stat, and doesn't need the 252/252+ to be a physical wall, like Donphan. Then as an AV user, which isn't even a good set:
252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Donphan: 398-471 (103.6 - 122.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
This is one of the weaker Special hits in OU, but it still succombs to it. Ground honestly isn't a great typing to wall Specially. And next we have Rapid Spin. Rapid Spin is completely outclassed by Excadrill, who can reliably set and spin away rocks. And it brings a Steel-type to the table, and yes it comes with two more weaknesses, but it doesn't really matter as Excadrill commonly carries a balloon and has teammates to beat Fire-types. Plus, Excadrill can beat spinblockers, can Donphan? Knock Off is so widespread it shouldn't be mentioned on it, while it is good. And not to mention that even M-Blastoise is comparable as a Rapid Spinner, as it is so much more powerful and can beat spinblockers, and it does have worse bulk, but let's use M-Zard X:
252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Blastoise: 160-189 (44.1 - 52.2%) -- 14.1% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Donphan: 178-210 (46.3 - 54.6%) -- 7.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
That's a very small difference when it comes to what moves Mega Charizard X will use. This is just one example, but Mega Blastoise has far better special bulk. In my honest opinion, Donphan is just not good, and I think it truly shines in lower tiers. But, in OU, it just isn't very good.
tl;dr: Donphan is outclassed, has a niche, better in lower tiers
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Donphan: 150-177 (39 - 46%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T: 171-202 (44.7 - 52.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
This is just one example, but Landorus-T only needs 132 Defense EVs to be more physically bulky, but, Landorus-T can invest in any other stat, and doesn't need the 252/252+ to be a physical wall, like Donphan. Then as an AV user, which isn't even a good set:
252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Donphan: 398-471 (103.6 - 122.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
This is one of the weaker Special hits in OU, but it still succombs to it. Ground honestly isn't a great typing to wall Specially. And next we have Rapid Spin. Rapid Spin is completely outclassed by Excadrill, who can reliably set and spin away rocks. And it brings a Steel-type to the table, and yes it comes with two more weaknesses, but it doesn't really matter as Excadrill commonly carries a balloon and has teammates to beat Fire-types. Plus, Excadrill can beat spinblockers, can Donphan? Knock Off is so widespread it shouldn't be mentioned on it, while it is good. And not to mention that even M-Blastoise is comparable as a Rapid Spinner, as it is so much more powerful and can beat spinblockers, and it does have worse bulk, but let's use M-Zard X:
252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Blastoise: 160-189 (44.1 - 52.2%) -- 14.1% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Donphan: 178-210 (46.3 - 54.6%) -- 7.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
That's a very small difference when it comes to what moves Mega Charizard X will use. This is just one example, but Mega Blastoise has far better special bulk. In my honest opinion, Donphan is just not good, and I think it truly shines in lower tiers. But, in OU, it just isn't very good.
tl;dr: Donphan is outclassed, has a niche, better in lower tiers
I was just looking through some of my older posts and found Donphan. Yeah I pretty much agree with Chesnaught about this. Donphan is basically just the middle child of Excadrill and Lando-t and so is outclassed by either, Could be decent in UU where neither of them are allowed.
Both of his siblings have considerable weaknesses to overcome; weaknesses that the target demographic of Donphan lacks the experience to adjust for. Donphan's strength is in his simplicity, both in type and utility.
Because people want to use it even more now that half the tier hates it existing
meanwhile UU is like "can we please have donphan already..?"
really? ive been away from OU and UU for a bit now, thanks!
Donphan isn't exactly stellar, even in UU, certainly more usable there than in OU though.
I dont say Donphan is a good AV user, but a Hydro Pump from a Greninja backed up by STAB and a Life Orb is not one of the weaker special hits in OU, and are you seriously saying that he should live the attack when it also is super effective? Btw, if he is at full health he actually lives thanks to Sturdy ;)
Donphan would be OU (by usage numbers only) if Smogon didn't switch to 1760 usage stats lol.
Donphan is a strange case because he's extremely close to OU usage if we run the old baseline (and basically everything that isn't 1760) and he doesn't even appear on the viability list. If Donphan's name was mentioned on the viability thread as even D or C rank he'd be OU by usage numbers alone and Smogon knows this. As much as I hate to say it, closing the elephant's thread would be more for dislike rather than the fact that no one uses him.
Donphan just might have the highest usage out of something deemed "unviable". For whatever reason, people just love to use the guy. I personally believe it may have more to do with team synergy. Perhaps people are finding Excadrill's steel type weaknesses undesirable for their needs, likely due to stacking up too many of them or making themselves to weak to a certain poke. Sometimes, the second best guy just might be the better one for the job.
I'd wager favortism might be a big factor as well. It feels like, at least among all you Smogon folk, he and Arcanine are some real base breakers. Lots of dude love him, lots hate him, and some even love to hate him. I personally have no use for him or Excadrill (bad type synergy) but I can see the appeal.
I'd wager favortism might be a big factor as well. It feels like, at least among all you Smogon folk, he and Arcanine are some real base breakers. Lots of dude love him, lots hate him, and some even love to hate him. I personally have no use for him or Excadrill (bad type synergy) but I can see the appeal.
Yes, Knock Off though, Elemental fangs are pretty awful and Knock Off lets him beat/hurt spinblockers like Gengar/Trevenant/Gourgeist/Mismagius more than any other move Donphan has access too.
And this isn't really OU viable as Donphan has many problems in OU due to it's bad speed, lack of recovery (outside of restovers) and (without AV) low SpD.
Iirc he even barely missed OU in the 1760 beeing the first pokemon outside of the cut.
Regarding the question why he is so popular, imo its simply because he is the best bulky spinner outside of mega blastoise who takes up a mega slot. If you have a balance/BO team and dont want to use a Defoger (and there are good reasons for that) you will most likely end up with Donphan. Excadril is fine on HO and strongly offensive inclined teams but his noexistent bulk makes him useless for more defensive teams. Imo Donphans main competetitors are Skarm and Mandi, not Excadrill. Donphan, especialy the AV Set, also beats the only common Spin Blocker in the meta Aegislash without breaking a sweat (much easier than Excadrill) and he can check half the S and A Rank threats if he needs to. If he had recovery he would probably be in the A Ranks.
umm are you calling 110/60/65 bulk nonexistent? also excas steel typing grants it more opportunities to spin than donphan does.
Yes I do, and no it does not. Its got some usefull resists like Flying, Fairy and Dragon but with its sub par defensive stats it takes 40-50% dmg even from resisted hits not to mention that pretty much everything that uses these attacking types also uses Fighting/Ground/Fire coverage moves to outright ohko Excadrill. Excadrill is so vulnerable to almost everything in the meta that it has to rely on predicted switches to get a spin chance and mispredicting usually means it dies. Just go and look through the Viability Ranking thread and try to find mons that cant ohko or at least heavily dmg Excadrill with a coverage move, there arent many.
Those exact same mons fuck Donphan up the ass
The opposite. Donphan beats most of the S and A rank mons face to face making him a solid check or even counter to most of them. The problem is without recovery he gets worn down fast and if you want him to spin over the course of the game you cant use him to check all the things he could if he had recovery. One shouldnt forget that his physical bulk and attack power is basicly the same as Hippos and with AV its like having physical and special defensive Hippo in one pokemon but, and here we are again, without any recovery which fucks it up pretty hard. Its a pitty realy :(
Ok
Aegislash-If you are using AV, you are using an ass item on an already ass pokemon(remember, runs min speed and is bulky af)
Thundurus-Sometimes runs grass knot
Landorus-Do I even need to eplain
Deo-S-Fucks it up with psycho boost or ice beam
deo-d- got me here
zard x- loses to will o wisp
zard y- just flat out dies
azumarill- physical attacks CAN overwhelm donphan
garchomp- got me here
Mega Gyarados- Mold Breaker, water move, and complete set up bait. This is where you wish you had exca.
Keldeo- Special water attacks
Mawile- WAYYYYY to strong to take 1v1
Talonflame- got me here
Mega TTar- got me here
mega venusaur- dies to giga dran
clefable- sets up all over donphan
dnite- got me here
excadrill- got me here
ferrothorn- stalls you out
gengar- can will-o-wisp
heatran- got me here
hippowdon- just stalls the fuck out of you
kyub- teravolt ice beam gg
landorus-t- ice shard aint doin shit
latios- one of the strongest special attackers in the game? I don't think so
rotom-w- burns, hydro pump
terrakion- got me here
tyranitar- not reliable. some variants run ice beam
That's S to A. And how many does it reliably counter/check? 8/33.
I actually was able to kill a lot of Deo-Ds and lati@s with Donphan, not to mention aegislash
Donphan is so underrated that many people that I battled thought that they could switch on him and defog or kill him with lati@s, they ended up switching in a Knock Off and died(sometimes ice shard was needed)
As for Deo-D Donphan can Knock Off him and take a huge chunk of its life while Deo-D taunts him predicting SR and then Donohan can KO it with EQ, spinning the SR Deo-D set up
Of course that required a bit of predicting
OBS my Donphan is Adamant and run 252 HP/ 252 Atk/ 4 SpD w/Assault Vest
Donphan is so underrated that many people that I battled thought that they could switch on him and defog or kill him with lati@s, they ended up switching in a Knock Off and died(sometimes ice shard was needed)
As for Deo-D Donphan can Knock Off him and take a huge chunk of its life while Deo-D taunts him predicting SR and then Donohan can KO it with EQ, spinning the SR Deo-D set up
Of course that required a bit of predicting
OBS my Donphan is Adamant and run 252 HP/ 252 Atk/ 4 SpD w/Assault Vest
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