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Don't use that, use this [OU Edition]
- Thread starter Gary
- Start date
That shouldn't be the ONLY goal. Of course you can do same pokemon (I did with Lucario) but I think it's just as informative of an exercise to show similar Pokemon. Heck, Jolteon / Thundurus-T is the first example in the OP! I don't see what the big deal is lol.
I've got one!
Don't use
Gastrodon @ Leftovers
Trait: Storm Drain
EVs: 252 HP / 84 Def / 172 SDef
Calm Nature
- Ice Beam / Earthquake
- Scald
- Recover
- Toxic
Why is this bad?
There's a reason that people think Gastrodon shouldn't be OU. This is the most common set used, but it also happens to be a bad one. Specially defensive Gastrodon is just an inefficient use of its bulk, typing, and ability. Gastrodon can already take special attacks pretty well even without investment. But without defensive investment, it is easily O-2HKOd by most physical attackers, and only succeeds in walling special attackers more than it has to. Most importantly, this set loses to Keldeo, a Pokémon that Gastrodon should, by all reasoning, wall to hell and back.
Use this instead!
Gastrodon @ Leftovers
Trait: Storm Drain
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SDef
Bold / Brave Nature
- Ice Beam / Earthquake
- Scald
- Recover
- Toxic
Why is this better?
One word: Keldeo. With this spread, Gastrodon can survive any Keldeo's Secret Sword (even Choice Specs!) while also getting a useful +1 SAtk boost from its Hydro Pump and taking laughable damage from Hidden Power and Icy Wind. Even with minimal special defense investment, Gastrodon can already wall many prominent special attackers. For example, it can recover stall Life Orb Latios and Latias's Draco Meteors. It can still wall Thundurus-T, Specs/ScarfToed (without HP Grass), Jolteon, Alakazam, Gengar, and Sub CM Jirachi (in fact, this set walls Psyshock Jirachi better). More than that, it can tank plenty of physical hits as well. Adamant Dragonite has only a 22% chance to 2HKO, whereas Ice Beam is a OHKO after Stealth Rock. The same can be said of Scarf Salamence, but it has no chance of 2HKOing, and Ice beam is a OHKO even without Rocks! It can also wall Sheer Force Conkeldurr, Choice Band Scizor, Feraligatr, Double Dance Landorus-T, Scarf Terrakion, Toxicroak (if you have Earthquake), and may other common rain Pokémon. People often complain about how Gastrodon sucks, but that's because they haven't used this set!
Don't use
Gastrodon @ Leftovers
Trait: Storm Drain
EVs: 252 HP / 84 Def / 172 SDef
Calm Nature
- Ice Beam / Earthquake
- Scald
- Recover
- Toxic
Why is this bad?
There's a reason that people think Gastrodon shouldn't be OU. This is the most common set used, but it also happens to be a bad one. Specially defensive Gastrodon is just an inefficient use of its bulk, typing, and ability. Gastrodon can already take special attacks pretty well even without investment. But without defensive investment, it is easily O-2HKOd by most physical attackers, and only succeeds in walling special attackers more than it has to. Most importantly, this set loses to Keldeo, a Pokémon that Gastrodon should, by all reasoning, wall to hell and back.
Use this instead!
Gastrodon @ Leftovers
Trait: Storm Drain
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SDef
Bold / Brave Nature
- Ice Beam / Earthquake
- Scald
- Recover
- Toxic
Why is this better?
One word: Keldeo. With this spread, Gastrodon can survive any Keldeo's Secret Sword (even Choice Specs!) while also getting a useful +1 SAtk boost from its Hydro Pump and taking laughable damage from Hidden Power and Icy Wind. Even with minimal special defense investment, Gastrodon can already wall many prominent special attackers. For example, it can recover stall Life Orb Latios and Latias's Draco Meteors. It can still wall Thundurus-T, Specs/ScarfToed (without HP Grass), Jolteon, Alakazam, Gengar, and Sub CM Jirachi (in fact, this set walls Psyshock Jirachi better). More than that, it can tank plenty of physical hits as well. Adamant Dragonite has only a 22% chance to 2HKO, whereas Ice Beam is a OHKO after Stealth Rock. The same can be said of Scarf Salamence, but it has no chance of 2HKOing, and Ice beam is a OHKO even without Rocks! It can also wall Sheer Force Conkeldurr, Choice Band Scizor, Feraligatr, Double Dance Landorus-T, Scarf Terrakion, Toxicroak (if you have Earthquake), and may other common rain Pokémon. People often complain about how Gastrodon sucks, but that's because they haven't used this set!
Good post Halcyon.
Thank you. For some reason, people seem to get pissed off when you call something niche outclassed or compare it to something that's better all around. Jolteon is obviously outclassed by Thundurus-T in pretty much every way bar it's incredible speed stat, but Thundurus-T should still be used in pretty much every other situation. Same with Jellicent and Vaporeon. Most niche Pokemon are outclassed in some one anyway. They still have a use in OU, but I don't see a problem in comparing them to better things. I want people to realize that yes Pokemon like Jolteon can be used, but most of the time you SHOULD be using Thundurus-T.
Unless someone can give me enough valid reasons as to why Thundurus-T shouldn't be considered over Jolteon in most cases, then I'm keeping it in the OP. That's the point of this thread. "This is okay, but why don't you try this?" Remember, don't take this thread too literally. As I've said before, I'm not calling certain things bad, I'm calling them outclassed.
Thank you. For some reason, people seem to get pissed off when you call something niche outclassed or compare it to something that's better all around. Jolteon is obviously outclassed by Thundurus-T in pretty much every way bar it's incredible speed stat, but Thundurus-T should still be used in pretty much every other situation. Same with Jellicent and Vaporeon. Most niche Pokemon are outclassed in some one anyway. They still have a use in OU, but I don't see a problem in comparing them to better things. I want people to realize that yes Pokemon like Jolteon can be used, but most of the time you SHOULD be using Thundurus-T.
Unless someone can give me enough valid reasons as to why Thundurus-T shouldn't be considered over Jolteon in most cases, then I'm keeping it in the OP. That's the point of this thread. "This is okay, but why don't you try this?" Remember, don't take this thread too literally. As I've said before, I'm not calling certain things bad, I'm calling them outclassed.
DONT USE THIS
Starmie@ Leftovers
Trait: Natural Cure
EVs: 248 HP / 32 Def / 4 SpA / 224 Spe
Timid Nature
- Rapid Spinn
- Scald
- Psyshock
- Recover
Why it's bad ?:
Defensive starmie is plain useless for me, ok he got rapid spinn but the only ghost he can break through is Gengar, which special defense is ridiculously weak. This set can't break through Jellicent (he can toxic/wow+taunt stall him, or straight murdering him with shadow ball) and even SABLEYE who got less base special defense than Gengar. (65 vs 75 lmao) This set is also countered by a lot of known pokemon, like Rotom-W, Ferrothorn, Celebi, Kyurem-B, Hydreigon, the Lati twins...which you do NOT want to have a free opportunity to Draco Meteor your team for the 2 dragons. This set also suffers from the "4 slot syndrome" : No matter what 2 attacks you use (Scald+Hp fire / Psyshock / Tbolt / Ice beam), you'll always be in a bad position. Scald+Hp fire or Ice beam is like saying "Jellicent wall me !" or Scald+Tbolt sounds like "Party" for Ferrothorn, Celebi, Virizion or Breloom.
USE THIS:
Starmie@ Life Orb
Trait: Analytic
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Rapid Spinn
- Hydro Pump
- Psyshock / Thunder
- Ice Beam
WHY IT'S BETTER ?
Analytic Starmie is the best Spinner in the OU metagame, i'm gonna let the calcs speak by themself (thanks alexworlf for them btw ( http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...-the-thread-no-shitty-gimmicks.3475986/page-7 )
Hydro Pump
Starmie@ Leftovers
Trait: Natural Cure
EVs: 248 HP / 32 Def / 4 SpA / 224 Spe
Timid Nature
- Rapid Spinn
- Scald
- Psyshock
- Recover
Why it's bad ?:
Defensive starmie is plain useless for me, ok he got rapid spinn but the only ghost he can break through is Gengar, which special defense is ridiculously weak. This set can't break through Jellicent (he can toxic/wow+taunt stall him, or straight murdering him with shadow ball) and even SABLEYE who got less base special defense than Gengar. (65 vs 75 lmao) This set is also countered by a lot of known pokemon, like Rotom-W, Ferrothorn, Celebi, Kyurem-B, Hydreigon, the Lati twins...which you do NOT want to have a free opportunity to Draco Meteor your team for the 2 dragons. This set also suffers from the "4 slot syndrome" : No matter what 2 attacks you use (Scald+Hp fire / Psyshock / Tbolt / Ice beam), you'll always be in a bad position. Scald+Hp fire or Ice beam is like saying "Jellicent wall me !" or Scald+Tbolt sounds like "Party" for Ferrothorn, Celebi, Virizion or Breloom.
USE THIS:
Starmie@ Life Orb
Trait: Analytic
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Rapid Spinn
- Hydro Pump
- Psyshock / Thunder
- Ice Beam
WHY IT'S BETTER ?
Analytic Starmie is the best Spinner in the OU metagame, i'm gonna let the calcs speak by themself (thanks alexworlf for them btw ( http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...-the-thread-no-shitty-gimmicks.3475986/page-7 )
Hydro Pump
- vs. 252 HP / 236+ SpD Celebi in rain: 151-178 (37.37 - 44.05%) -- possible 2HKO with Ice Beam after Stealth Rock
- vs. 248 HP / 232+ SpD Rotom-W in rain: 144-170 (47.52 - 56.1%) -- nearly guaranteed 2HKO with Psyshock after Stealth Rock
- vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Latias in rain: 166-196 (45.6 - 53.84%) -- guaranteed 2HKO with Ice Beam after Stealth Rock
- vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn in rain: 159-187 (45.17 - 53.12%) --
- vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Jellicent: 354-419 (87.84 - 103.97%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
- vs. 252 HP / 220+ SpD Jellicent: 265-312 (65.59 - 77.22%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
- vs. 232 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 174-205 (58.19 - 68.56%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
- vs. 4 HP / 252 Def Blissey: 364-430 (55.82 - 65.95%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
- vs. 252 HP / 36 Def Jellicent: 235-278 (58.16 - 68.81%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
- vs. 56 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-B: 185-218 (45.67 - 53.82%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
- vs. 252 HP / 64 Def Kyurem-B: 173-204 (38.1 - 44.93%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Spikes
- vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Rotom-W: 175-207 (57.75 - 68.31%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
- vs. 252 HP / 84 Def Gastrodon: 226-266 (53.05 - 62.44%) -- 2HKO after Stealth Rock more than 50% of the time
- vs. 252 HP / 236+ SpD Celebi: 216-255 (53.46 - 63.11%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
- vs. 56 HP / 0 SpD Celebi: 294-346 (82.81 - 97.46%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
- vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latios: 270-320 (89.4 - 105.96%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
DONT USE THIS
Starmie@ Leftovers
Trait: Natural Cure
EVs: 248 HP / 32 Def / 4 SpA / 224 Spe
Timid Nature
- Rapid Spinn
- Scald
- Psyshock
- Recover
Why it's bad ?:
Defensive starmie is plain useless for me, ok he got rapid spinn but the only ghost he can break through is Gengar, which special defense is ridiculously weak. This set can't break through Jellicent (he can toxic/wow+taunt stall him, or straight murdering him with shadow ball) and even SABLEYE who got less base special defense than Gengar. (65 vs 75 lmao) This set is also countered by a lot of known pokemon, like Rotom-W, Ferrothorn, Celebi, Kyurem-B, Hydreigon, the Lati twins...which you do NOT want to have a free opportunity to Draco Meteor your team for the 2 dragons. This set also suffers from the "4 slot syndrome" : No matter what 2 attacks you use (Scald+Hp fire / Psyshock / Tbolt / Ice beam), you'll always be in a bad position. Scald+Hp fire or Ice beam is like saying "Jellicent wall me !" or Scald+Tbolt sounds like "Party" for Ferrothorn, Celebi, Virizion or Breloom.
USE THIS:
Starmie@ Life Orb
Trait: Analytic
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Rapid Spinn
- Hydro Pump
- Psyshock / Thunder
- Ice Beam
WHY IT'S BETTER ?
Analytic Starmie is the best Spinner in the OU metagame, i'm gonna let the calcs speak by themself (thanks alexworlf for them btw ( http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...-the-thread-no-shitty-gimmicks.3475986/page-7 )
Hydro Pump
Thunder
- vs. 252 HP / 236+ SpD Celebi in rain: 151-178 (37.37 - 44.05%) -- possible 2HKO with Ice Beam after Stealth Rock
- vs. 248 HP / 232+ SpD Rotom-W in rain: 144-170 (47.52 - 56.1%) -- nearly guaranteed 2HKO with Psyshock after Stealth Rock
- vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Latias in rain: 166-196 (45.6 - 53.84%) -- guaranteed 2HKO with Ice Beam after Stealth Rock
- vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn in rain: 159-187 (45.17 - 53.12%) --
Psyshock
- vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Jellicent: 354-419 (87.84 - 103.97%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
- vs. 252 HP / 220+ SpD Jellicent: 265-312 (65.59 - 77.22%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
- vs. 232 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 174-205 (58.19 - 68.56%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Ice Beam
- vs. 4 HP / 252 Def Blissey: 364-430 (55.82 - 65.95%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
- vs. 252 HP / 36 Def Jellicent: 235-278 (58.16 - 68.81%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
- vs. 56 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-B: 185-218 (45.67 - 53.82%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
- vs. 252 HP / 64 Def Kyurem-B: 173-204 (38.1 - 44.93%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Spikes
- vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Rotom-W: 175-207 (57.75 - 68.31%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
- vs. 252 HP / 84 Def Gastrodon: 226-266 (53.05 - 62.44%) -- 2HKO after Stealth Rock more than 50% of the time
Yeah you saw it, this set can 2HKO and even OHKO Jellicent, who is the bulkiest spinnblocker in the game, even mons like Ferrothorn have a hard time countering it without losing a lot of HP. Off course it is a bit weaker defensively but he still can switch on Scarfkeldeo Stabb / Heatran's Fire Blast, and he spinns better, which his is premier job.
- vs. 252 HP / 236+ SpD Celebi: 216-255 (53.46 - 63.11%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
- vs. 56 HP / 0 SpD Celebi: 294-346 (82.81 - 97.46%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
- vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latios: 270-320 (89.4 - 105.96%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
There are several reasons why I don't agree with this, but I'll back to you later.
Defensive Starmie is not meant to hit hard, it is meant to be a defensive spinner that has a nice amount of speed along with a speedy recover which gives it the ability to repeatedly switch into those things that lay hazards like Hippowdon or Skarmory, and actually manage to get a Spin off without being struct down by most moves. Offensive Starmie works better on offense, defensive on more stallish and slower teams.
I too find bulky starmie to be useless, but life orb starmie plays a completely different role. It doesn't exactly outclass it, just plays differently. This is like saying use special lando over physical or scarf keldeo over specsDONT USE THIS
Starmie@ Leftovers
Trait: Natural Cure
EVs: 248 HP / 32 Def / 4 SpA / 224 Spe
Timid Nature
- Rapid Spinn
- Scald
- Psyshock
- Recover
Why it's bad ?:
Defensive starmie is plain useless for me, ok he got rapid spinn but the only ghost he can break through is Gengar, which special defense is ridiculously weak. This set can't break through Jellicent (he can toxic/wow+taunt stall him, or straight murdering him with shadow ball) and even SABLEYE who got less base special defense than Gengar. (65 vs 75 lmao) This set is also countered by a lot of known pokemon, like Rotom-W, Ferrothorn, Celebi, Kyurem-B, Hydreigon, the Lati twins...which you do NOT want to have a free opportunity to Draco Meteor your team for the 2 dragons. This set also suffers from the "4 slot syndrome" : No matter what 2 attacks you use (Scald+Hp fire / Psyshock / Tbolt / Ice beam), you'll always be in a bad position. Scald+Hp fire or Ice beam is like saying "Jellicent wall me !" or Scald+Tbolt sounds like "Party" for Ferrothorn, Celebi, Virizion or Breloom.
USE THIS:
Starmie@ Life Orb
Trait: Analytic
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Rapid Spinn
- Hydro Pump
- Psyshock / Thunder
- Ice Beam
WHY IT'S BETTER ?
Analytic Starmie is the best Spinner in the OU metagame, i'm gonna let the calcs speak by themself (thanks alexworlf for them btw ( http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...-the-thread-no-shitty-gimmicks.3475986/page-7 )
Hydro Pump
Thunder
- vs. 252 HP / 236+ SpD Celebi in rain: 151-178 (37.37 - 44.05%) -- possible 2HKO with Ice Beam after Stealth Rock
- vs. 248 HP / 232+ SpD Rotom-W in rain: 144-170 (47.52 - 56.1%) -- nearly guaranteed 2HKO with Psyshock after Stealth Rock
- vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Latias in rain: 166-196 (45.6 - 53.84%) -- guaranteed 2HKO with Ice Beam after Stealth Rock
- vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn in rain: 159-187 (45.17 - 53.12%) --
Psyshock
- vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Jellicent: 354-419 (87.84 - 103.97%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
- vs. 252 HP / 220+ SpD Jellicent: 265-312 (65.59 - 77.22%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
- vs. 232 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 174-205 (58.19 - 68.56%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Ice Beam
- vs. 4 HP / 252 Def Blissey: 364-430 (55.82 - 65.95%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
- vs. 252 HP / 36 Def Jellicent: 235-278 (58.16 - 68.81%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
- vs. 56 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-B: 185-218 (45.67 - 53.82%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
- vs. 252 HP / 64 Def Kyurem-B: 173-204 (38.1 - 44.93%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Spikes
- vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Rotom-W: 175-207 (57.75 - 68.31%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
- vs. 252 HP / 84 Def Gastrodon: 226-266 (53.05 - 62.44%) -- 2HKO after Stealth Rock more than 50% of the time
Yeah you saw it, this set can 2HKO and even OHKO Jellicent, who is the bulkiest spinnblocker in the game, even mons like Ferrothorn have a hard time countering it without losing a lot of HP. Off course it is a bit weaker defensively but he still can switch on Scarfkeldeo Stabb / Heatran's Fire Blast, and he spinns better, which his is premier job.
- vs. 252 HP / 236+ SpD Celebi: 216-255 (53.46 - 63.11%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
- vs. 56 HP / 0 SpD Celebi: 294-346 (82.81 - 97.46%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
- vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latios: 270-320 (89.4 - 105.96%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
As a defensive rapid spinner, forretress got spikes, can voltswitch on jellicent to maybe pursuit him with Tyranitar and spinn freely later .The goal of this starmie is spinning, its cute to take some hits but it´s not that bulky and you can't fight back. I was talking as a starmie user, LO mie is a far superior version than the "Bulky" one.
As a defensive spinner i could´ve said "use forretress", the point is that Starmie is overrated, he is still frail, he can't beat jellicent / sableye and he is not even annoying at all for 99% team, but yeah I kinda missunderstood the thread, Im gonna shit on Starmie the same way, but by explaining how forretress is superior than him as a rapid spinner eheh.
As a defensive spinner i could´ve said "use forretress", the point is that Starmie is overrated, he is still frail, he can't beat jellicent / sableye and he is not even annoying at all for 99% team, but yeah I kinda missunderstood the thread, Im gonna shit on Starmie the same way, but by explaining how forretress is superior than him as a rapid spinner eheh.
You were talking to a Starmie user, is that a joke? Forretress has NO OFFENSE AT ALL and has no recovery. It dies off very quickly in many cases and literally has no use outside of Spinning and gaining some momentum. Laying hazards is cool, but if it didn't have that virtue I doubt it would be used. A lot of people use Starmie, one single persons word, especially considering we have no idea who that person is, does not mean bulky Starmie is outclassed. It is useful for many defensive teams, and they both have their ups and downs, but saying one is outright horrible and inferior is wrong. Sometimes offensive Starmie dies before it even manages to get a Spin because it is so fragile, and sometimes it also falls to Keldeo very easily because of its rather shallow defenses and lack of Recovery.
Ignoring your Forretress comparison because it makes no sense.
Full stop: Starmie distinguishes itself from other bulky waters by having Rapid Spin. (its speed is also great to check threats, but that's not the main selling point)
Forretress can nail Gengar pretty dam hard with Gyroball to be fair.
Full stop: Starmie distinguishes itself from other bulky waters by having Rapid Spin. (its speed is also great to check threats, but that's not the main selling point)
Forretress can nail Gengar pretty dam hard with Gyroball to be fair.
Don't use this:
Starmie@ Leftovers
Trait: Natural Cure
EVs: 248 HP / 32 Def / 4 SpA / 224 Spe
Timid Nature
- Rapid Spinn
- Scald
- Psyshock
- Recover
Why? With Tar and Scizor as common as they are, maybe Starmie can get a spin off once or twice before being Pursuitted to death. Additionally, you can't really do much to Ferro with this set apart from trying to get a burn.
Instead, try:
Starmie@ Leftovers
Trait: Natural Cure
EVs: 248 HP / 32 Def / 4 SpA / 224 Spe
Timid Nature
- Rapid Spinn
- Scald
- Reflect Type
- Recover
Here, you lose out on spinning on Gengar unfortunately (unless you happen to get a Scald burn) and you can't do anything to Jelly whatsoever, but you're no longer free Pursuit bait for things like Bandtar or Scizor. Also, you're able to easily RT on Ferrothorn and Scald it to death, you can RT against Tentacruel and be immune to Toxic, RT on Ninetales to take Fire Blast/Solarbeam, the list goes on. Overall, if you want a Spinner that's able to stick around for the majority of the battle, this is the one to use.
Is this a joke? I have never seen Forretress ever beating any variant of Gengar because it either has HP Fire or Disable to cancel Gyro Ball. The only way Forretress can beat Gengar is if it predicts the switch and goes for Gyro Ball, but that's unreliable. Jellicent resists Gyro Ball and uses Taunt to prevent Forretress from setting up. Sableye also carries Taunt, and it burns Forretress with Will-O-Wisp. This post is just wrong on so many levels that I refuse to ever consider putting that Starmie set in the OP if you're going to use that kind of BS support.
Yeah but Sub Disable beats that (which is why I specified). You would have to predict the switch into Gengar, but that goes both ways, so I still wouldn't say it beats spin blockers. The funny thing is that Starmie is one of two spinners that actually CAN beat all spinners.
How does Volt Switch have anything to do with Forretress beating a spin blocker..... Forretress can't beat a spinblocker 1v1, which is the whole point of this discussion. Forretress obviously can't beat spinblockers because it needs support from T-Tar. Starmie can with Psyshock for Gengar, and Thunder for Jellicent. Forretress needs help. Lol this discussion is stupid.
GET BACK ON TRACK PEOPLE!
Last edited:
Who loves being controversial? I love being controversial. I do I do I do-oo!
Don't use this!
Terrakion @ Life Orb/Rock Gem
Trait: Justified
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Close Combat
- Stone Edge
- Earthquake / Quick Attack / X-Scissor
Why it's bad: In a few words, Terrakion is never safe when setting up. As we all know, Fighting/Rock is the best STAB combination we have ever seen in OU (only Reshiram could be said to have better STABs, and that's counting Turboblaze), but it leaves you horribly horribly vulnerable defensively. Terrakion is weak to six types. The other two type combinations with more weaknesses are Grass/Psychic and Grass/Ice with 7 apiece. So while +2 Terrakion is very much impossible to switch into, he's so laughably easy to revenge as have not even bothered setting up. Substitute mitigates this, but is still very far from perfect.
Use this instead!
Terrakion @ Choice Band
Trait Justified
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Close Combat
- Stone Edge
- X-Scissor
- Rock Slide / Quick Attack / Earthquake / Sacred Sword / Hidden Power Ice
Why it's better: Here, Terrakion shines as the hit-and-run wallbreaking juggernaut of "Fuck you" he was always meant to be. He's not worrying about Scarf Keldeo coming in, because if he does on the wrong attack, whoops, there goes Keldeo. Now, perhaps this is all a product of my own poor use of Terrakion, but I feel that it's fair to say that "Greatest Choice Band User Ever" does not equal "Good Boosting Attacker". To be entirely honest, the 3rd and 4th move slots are mostly filler. Fighting/Rock truly is the best STAB combination in OU, and Terrakion is more than tailor-made to crush everything in his path with just his STABs.
Don't use this!
Terrakion @ Life Orb/Rock Gem
Trait: Justified
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Close Combat
- Stone Edge
- Earthquake / Quick Attack / X-Scissor
Why it's bad: In a few words, Terrakion is never safe when setting up. As we all know, Fighting/Rock is the best STAB combination we have ever seen in OU (only Reshiram could be said to have better STABs, and that's counting Turboblaze), but it leaves you horribly horribly vulnerable defensively. Terrakion is weak to six types. The other two type combinations with more weaknesses are Grass/Psychic and Grass/Ice with 7 apiece. So while +2 Terrakion is very much impossible to switch into, he's so laughably easy to revenge as have not even bothered setting up. Substitute mitigates this, but is still very far from perfect.
Use this instead!
Terrakion @ Choice Band
Trait Justified
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Close Combat
- Stone Edge
- X-Scissor
- Rock Slide / Quick Attack / Earthquake / Sacred Sword / Hidden Power Ice
Why it's better: Here, Terrakion shines as the hit-and-run wallbreaking juggernaut of "Fuck you" he was always meant to be. He's not worrying about Scarf Keldeo coming in, because if he does on the wrong attack, whoops, there goes Keldeo. Now, perhaps this is all a product of my own poor use of Terrakion, but I feel that it's fair to say that "Greatest Choice Band User Ever" does not equal "Good Boosting Attacker". To be entirely honest, the 3rd and 4th move slots are mostly filler. Fighting/Rock truly is the best STAB combination in OU, and Terrakion is more than tailor-made to crush everything in his path with just his STABs.
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Erm... you missed the natures.
Also HP-Ice is terri-bad on Terrakion, if anything Rock Slide is a better option to check Pokemon without risking missing with Stone Edge (as much).
Also HP-Ice is terri-bad on Terrakion, if anything Rock Slide is a better option to check Pokemon without risking missing with Stone Edge (as much).
Added natures and added another line of text. It's also the very last in the line of slashes, because pretty much anything can go there.
Who loves being controversial? I love being controversial. I do I do I do-oo!
Don't use this!
Terrakion @ Life Orb/Rock Gem
Trait: Justified
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Close Combat
- Stone Edge
- Earthquake / Quick Attack / X-Scissor
Why it's bad: In a few words, Terrakion is never safe when setting up. As we all know, Fighting/Rock is the best STAB combination we have ever seen in OU (only Reshiram could be said to have better STABs, and that's counting Turboblaze), but it leaves you horribly horribly vulnerable defensively. Terrakion is weak to six types. The other two type combinations with more weaknesses are Grass/Psychic and Grass/Ice with 7 apiece. So while +2 Terrakion is very much impossible to switch into, he's so laughably easy to revenge as have not even bothered setting up. Substitute mitigates this, but is still very far from perfect.
Use this instead!
Terrakion @ Choice Band
Trait Justified
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Close Combat
- Stone Edge
- X-Scissor
- Rock Slide / Quick Attack / Earthquake / Sacred Sword / Hidden Power Ice
Why it's better: Here, Terrakion shines as the hit-and-run wallbreaking juggernaut of "Fuck you" he was always meant to be. He's not worrying about Scarf Keldeo coming in, because if he does on the wrong attack, whoops, there goes Keldeo. Now, perhaps this is all a product of my own poor use of Terrakion, but I feel that it's fair to say that "Greatest Choice Band User Ever" does not equal "Good Boosting Attacker". To be entirely honest, the 3rd and 4th move slots are mostly filler. Fighting/Rock truly is the best STAB combination in OU, and Terrakion is more than tailor-made to crush everything in his path with just his STABs.
Hmmm... I feel that this needs a bit more discussion before it can go in the OP. Although I agree with you that the Offensive SD set is hard to pull off, I have had major success with the Sub Salac SD set, which is only a slight variation from the classic LO SD set. I do personally prefer the CB set over the Offensive SD set, but I don't want people to think that its Sub Salac set is also inferior to the Banded set, because that's not true at all. They play completely different roles.
Any thoughts on this?
I think SD Terrakion needs to pair Rock Polish with it, simply because sometimes it just can't manage to sweep without it. A Double Dance set is definitely viable and I don't see a reason to not use it. The set you listed however is correct, as Terrakion should almost always use either Substitute or Rock Polish, Earthquake and X-Scissor don't really give you anything new.
Don't use this...
Conkeldurr@ Leftovers
Iron Fist
120 HP, 252 Atk, 136 SpDef
Brave Nature
-Bulk Up
-Mach Punch
-Ice Punch/Payback
-Drain Punch
Why its not good: On paper, Conkeldurr seems like an ok wallbreaker. He can beat Ghosts and Flyers, and he has a sweet movepool. However, than one sees the crippling flaws of Conkeldurr. Unlike Chunky Kong, Conkeldurr is not one hell of a guy, while still being about as slow as your grandmother during prune season, while looking the part to boot. Also, while Conkeldurr can beat Ghosts and Flyers, he cant beat both, and as a result can be easy to defeat. However, Conkeldurr's biggest flaw is his low special bulk, which in this Keldeo dominant era, is such a disappointment as any decent special attacker can ruin Conkeldurr, making him an easy target for the likes of Latios, Keldeo, Starmie, and other threats such as Rotom W in rain.
Gallade @ Leftovers
Justified
240 HP, 56 Def, 212 SpDef
Careful Nature
-Bulk Up
-Shadow Sneak
-Drain Punch
-Ice Punch
Why this is better: Gallade not only solves our issue of bulk and speed, but also of coverage. Looking at Gallade, the attractive qualities are his extra resistances and high Special defense make him an ideal tank. Gallade is much harder to revenge kill after a bulk up or two than Conk, as he can actually take a hit. Gallade also has the interesting Shadow Sneak, which is unique among fighters, allowing him to defeat the Ghosts and Psychics in ones way easily, while still having both priority and coverage. Justified also is a cool ability, as it gives one the occasional boost. Overall, Gallade is a better tanky bulk up user than conk due to his higher special bulk, useful resistances, and unique movepool...
Conkeldurr@ Leftovers
Iron Fist
120 HP, 252 Atk, 136 SpDef
Brave Nature
-Bulk Up
-Mach Punch
-Ice Punch/Payback
-Drain Punch
Why its not good: On paper, Conkeldurr seems like an ok wallbreaker. He can beat Ghosts and Flyers, and he has a sweet movepool. However, than one sees the crippling flaws of Conkeldurr. Unlike Chunky Kong, Conkeldurr is not one hell of a guy, while still being about as slow as your grandmother during prune season, while looking the part to boot. Also, while Conkeldurr can beat Ghosts and Flyers, he cant beat both, and as a result can be easy to defeat. However, Conkeldurr's biggest flaw is his low special bulk, which in this Keldeo dominant era, is such a disappointment as any decent special attacker can ruin Conkeldurr, making him an easy target for the likes of Latios, Keldeo, Starmie, and other threats such as Rotom W in rain.
Gallade @ Leftovers
Justified
240 HP, 56 Def, 212 SpDef
Careful Nature
-Bulk Up
-Shadow Sneak
-Drain Punch
-Ice Punch
Why this is better: Gallade not only solves our issue of bulk and speed, but also of coverage. Looking at Gallade, the attractive qualities are his extra resistances and high Special defense make him an ideal tank. Gallade is much harder to revenge kill after a bulk up or two than Conk, as he can actually take a hit. Gallade also has the interesting Shadow Sneak, which is unique among fighters, allowing him to defeat the Ghosts and Psychics in ones way easily, while still having both priority and coverage. Justified also is a cool ability, as it gives one the occasional boost. Overall, Gallade is a better tanky bulk up user than conk due to his higher special bulk, useful resistances, and unique movepool...
Don't use this...
Conkeldurr@ Leftovers
Iron Fist
120 HP, 252 Atk, 136 SpDef
Brave Nature
-Bulk Up
-Mach Punch
-Ice Punch/Payback
-Drain Punch
Why its not good: On paper, Conkeldurr seems like an ok wallbreaker. He can beat Ghosts and Flyers, and he has a sweet movepool. However, than one sees the crippling flaws of Conkeldurr. Unlike Chunky Kong, Conkeldurr is not one hell of a guy, while still being about as slow as your grandmother during prune season, while looking the part to boot. Also, while Conkeldurr can beat Ghosts and Flyers, he cant beat both, and as a result can be easy to defeat. However, Conkeldurr's biggest flaw is his low special bulk, which in this Keldeo dominant era, is such a disappointment as any decent special attacker can ruin Conkeldurr, making him an easy target for the likes of Latios, Keldeo, Starmie, and other threats such as Rotom W in rain.
Gallade @ Leftovers
Justified
240 HP, 56 Def, 212 SpDef
Careful Nature
-Bulk Up
-Shadow Sneak
-Drain Punch
-Ice Punch
Why this is better: Gallade not only solves our issue of bulk and speed, but also of coverage. Looking at Gallade, the attractive qualities are his extra resistances and high Special defense make him an ideal tank. Gallade is much harder to revenge kill after a bulk up or two than Conk, as he can actually take a hit. Gallade also has the interesting Shadow Sneak, which is unique among fighters, allowing him to defeat the Ghosts and Psychics in ones way easily, while still having both priority and coverage. Justified also is a cool ability, as it gives one the occasional boost. Overall, Gallade is a better tanky bulk up user than conk due to his higher special bulk, useful resistances, and unique movepool...
Conk is used because it hits like a truck to recover ALL that HP gone with drain punch.
If you are going the bulky route, Scrafty outclasses Gallade. Scrafty resists ghost and is immune to psychic plus STAB crunch>unSTAB shafow sneak. Also, shed skin is amazing to beat status on a mon that takes a long time to set up with CM/bulk up.
I think you are doing the opposite of what this thread is meant to do. Gallade is incredibly niche and Scrafty/Conkeldurr are usually better.
The real reason to use Gallade>Scrafty is if you have a fighting weak team(which is easy to do in this meta) and need a resist not another weakness. It is not because Gallade is particularly great.
SR Jirachi was already offered as an alternative to SR Metagross, but I'd like to offer another alternative that can overcome some of Metagross's downfalls that Jirachi can't, while also being a better analogue to Metagross's old role rather than being something completely different.
Don't use this:
Metagross @ Leftovers
Trait: Clear Body
EVs: 252 HP / 96 Atk / 160 SDef
Adamant Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Meteor Mash
- Pursuit
- Earthquake / Hammer Arm
Why it's bad: Metagross has a ton of issues that prevent it from being ideal in the current metagame, the two main ones being that it's easily worn down and that its coverage is very awkward, always leaving more to be desired. For example, the set above (listed on site) has trouble with bulky waters, Thundurus-T, Skarm, and Volcarona. Sure you can swap out one of your current coverage moves for ice punch, thunder punch, or rock slide to help cover those threats, but just needing all of those options on top of what it already has shows how bad Metagross is as an offensive SR setter. I won't knock Agiligross or other offensive Metagross sets, but there are so many better offensive and defensive mons you can fit rocks onto. If you really need a steel type to set up rocks and check dragons that's not weak to fighting, you can
Use this:
Bronzong @ Leftovers
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 168 Def / 88 SDef
Sassy Nature
IVs: 2 Spd
- Stealth Rock
- Gyro Ball
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Earthquake / Toxic
Why it's better: With levitate, Bronzong cannot be worn down by spikes, increasing its survivability a ton. Its ground immunity lets it handle dragons much better, allowing it to switch into physical dragons not locked into outrage directly, unlike Metagross. And on top of that, you are no longer Lando-T's bitch; you make it yours quite easily. Gyro ball and HP ice allow Bronzong to check a number of offensive threats effectively, and earthquake is there to hit your opponent's steels. I prefer toxic in the last slot though, as even with earthquake, Bronzong fares poorly against Tentacruel, Toxicroak, Ferrothorn, and Heatran. Toxic is great for luring and dealing with your opponent's bulky waters as they try to burn you. By changing your SR setter from Metagross to Bronzong, you essentially trade crappy coverage for more specialized (still not great) coverage and much more utility, which is well worth it in my opinion.
Don't use this:
Metagross @ Leftovers
Trait: Clear Body
EVs: 252 HP / 96 Atk / 160 SDef
Adamant Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Meteor Mash
- Pursuit
- Earthquake / Hammer Arm
Why it's bad: Metagross has a ton of issues that prevent it from being ideal in the current metagame, the two main ones being that it's easily worn down and that its coverage is very awkward, always leaving more to be desired. For example, the set above (listed on site) has trouble with bulky waters, Thundurus-T, Skarm, and Volcarona. Sure you can swap out one of your current coverage moves for ice punch, thunder punch, or rock slide to help cover those threats, but just needing all of those options on top of what it already has shows how bad Metagross is as an offensive SR setter. I won't knock Agiligross or other offensive Metagross sets, but there are so many better offensive and defensive mons you can fit rocks onto. If you really need a steel type to set up rocks and check dragons that's not weak to fighting, you can
Use this:
Bronzong @ Leftovers
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 168 Def / 88 SDef
Sassy Nature
IVs: 2 Spd
- Stealth Rock
- Gyro Ball
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Earthquake / Toxic
Why it's better: With levitate, Bronzong cannot be worn down by spikes, increasing its survivability a ton. Its ground immunity lets it handle dragons much better, allowing it to switch into physical dragons not locked into outrage directly, unlike Metagross. And on top of that, you are no longer Lando-T's bitch; you make it yours quite easily. Gyro ball and HP ice allow Bronzong to check a number of offensive threats effectively, and earthquake is there to hit your opponent's steels. I prefer toxic in the last slot though, as even with earthquake, Bronzong fares poorly against Tentacruel, Toxicroak, Ferrothorn, and Heatran. Toxic is great for luring and dealing with your opponent's bulky waters as they try to burn you. By changing your SR setter from Metagross to Bronzong, you essentially trade crappy coverage for more specialized (still not great) coverage and much more utility, which is well worth it in my opinion.