Don't use that, use this [OU Edition]

Gary

Can be abrasive at times (no joke)
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnus
Can we seriously stop the whole Jolteon/Thundurus-T talk? It's getting really annoying, and it obviously isn't going anywhere. What's been said has been said.
 
Can we seriously stop the whole Jolteon/Thundurus-T talk? It's getting really annoying, and it obviously isn't going anywhere. What's been said has been said.
The Jolteon/Thundurus-T talk isn't the point, though. I just don't agree with this thread in its entirety and believe it's a bad influence on new players.
It's so ridiculously subjective, blowing the benefits way out of proportion while ignoring the cons, basically just making it the preference of the poster, while new players should find out what works for them, I wouldn't encourage anyone to read this thread for those reasons.
 

Gary

Can be abrasive at times (no joke)
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnus
I'm honestly really surprised that this one hasn't been brought up yet:

Don't use this....


Infernape @ Focus Sash
Trait: Blaze
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spd / 4 SpA
Naive Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Overheat
- Close Combat
- Fake Out / Taunt

If you're going to use Infernape in OU, please don't use the lead set. It's just so outclassed by a lot of other hazard leads that I just don't see that much of a use for this thing. Fire/Fighting is by no means a bad typing, especially sense it's good against a lot of other common leads, but the biggest problem lies in Infernape's lack of instant power and the fact that its best STAB is neutered by a very dominant playstyle in the form of rain. Even when fully invested, Infernape's Attack only reaches a depressing 307, while its Special Attack is only 244. This set basically just sets up SR, and then dies. Unlike Skarmory and Forretress who can lay both Spikes and SR, and Terrakion who can pose a offensive threat right from the start with its already high Attack stat and amazing dual STABs that aren't nuetered by weather. This set is just so outclassed that I don't see any reason to use it. Go back to Gen 4, kid.

Use this instead...


Terrakion @ Focus Sash
Trait: Justified
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spd / 4 HP
Jolly Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Close Combat
- Stone Edge
- Taunt

Terrakion is arguably the best SR lead right now due to its amazing dual typing, great speed, and awesome power. There isn't much in the tier that's safe from a Close Combat or a Stone Edge, and the ones that can are usually Taunt bait anyway, like Skarmory and Forretress. Terrakion has the ability to outspeed common Custap leads as well and keep them from doing their job. There really isn't much more to explain about this set, because it's so obviously good at getting the job done that it really doesn't need much explanation, and it's Terrakion. If you're looking for a team that needs an offensive SR lead, then Terrakion is probably your best bet. Even Lead Garchomp faces a bit of competition from this set, because Terrakion is faster and has access to Taunt.
 

Trainer Au

Insert custom title here
The Jolteon/Thundurus-T talk isn't the point, though. I just don't agree with this thread in its entirety and believe it's a bad influence on new players.
It's so ridiculously subjective, blowing the benefits way out of proportion while ignoring the cons, basically just making it the preference of the poster, while new players should find out what works for them, I wouldn't encourage anyone to read this thread for those reasons.
A bad influence on new players? We aren't saying you can't use these mons, just that there are generally better options. Take Haxorus vs Garchomp, Haxorus does have quite a bit more attack and Taunt+Moldbreaker is cool sometimes. It can also utilize a double dance set. Garchomp, while being weaker, has a very important ground stab, is naturally faster, and it is bulkier. There are reasons to use Haxorus, but Chomp is generally the better choice. This is what we are trying to convey to newer players, so they can use the best possible option for there team and succeed more, because nobody likes losing. New players should find out what fits there team, yes, like if your team is really rocks weak thundurus-t may not be the best option, but that isn't the point. The point is that in a vaccuum one pokemon generally outclasses another.
 
A bad influence on new players? We aren't saying you can't use these mons, just that there are generally better options. Take Haxorus vs Garchomp, Haxorus does have quite a bit more attack and Taunt+Moldbreaker is cool sometimes. It can also utilize a double dance set. Garchomp, while being weaker, has a very important ground stab, is naturally faster, and it is bulkier. There are reasons to use Haxorus, but Chomp is generally the better choice. This is what we are trying to convey to newer players, so they can use the best possible option for there team and succeed more, because nobody likes losing. New players should find out what fits there team, yes, like if your team is really rocks weak thundurus-t may not be the best option, but that isn't the point. The point is that in a vaccuum one pokemon generally outclasses another.
Except they don't outclass eachother in a vaccuum, they're different pokemon.. And I agree, they should use the best possible option FOR THEIR TEAM and succeed more.
Which is why I'd discourage them from reading this thread, reading opinions from biased players isn't going to help them, they need to try pokes out for themselves and see what fits their team, what fits their playstyle. Reading about "respected players" that say Thundurus-T is a generally better pokemon than Jolteon when they realistically don't even share the same damn role, is going to put them off of using Jolteon, which is something that shouldn't be encouraged. The same goes for other examples, by spoonfeeding our biased opinions to these new players we're hampering the metagames growth.
 

Halcyon.

@Choice Specs
is a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
Here's a good one



Don't use this...

Gliscor @ Toxic Orb
Trait: Poison Heal
EVs: 40 Def / 224 Spd / 244 HP
Impish Nature
- Acrobatics
- Fling
- Protect
- Earthquake


Why not?
I have seen so many people on the ladder using Fling + Acrobatics Gliscor. I know that, on paper, this seems like a really good idea. You get to Toxic something while also causing damage with Fling and then you get to use a fully powered Acrobatics! What more could you ask for, right? Well, not exactly. While the idea of having that STAB Acrobatics to hit opponents with seems nice, it actually isn't going much to anything with zero attack investment. Even if you use a different spread that maximizes attack, you won't be hitting hard with no way to boost your attack anyway (and if you're using Swords Dance on this set, why aren't you just using the AcroBat set?). Not only that, but because you're using Fling, you only get one chance to Toxic something. If you accidentally hit a Steel type, a Pokémon with Natural Cure, or something you've already statused, then you're stuck with a useless move that can't do anything. All in all, this set just can't do what Gliscor's other sets can.

...use this instead!


Gliscor @ Toxic Orb
Trait: Poison Heal
EVs: 40 Def / 224 Spd / 244 HP
Impish Nature
- Earthquake
- Protect
- Substitute
- Toxic


Why?
The SubToxic set is Gliscor's best set, and the one you should choose if you want to annoy every single battler you run into on the ladder. With the combination of Substitute, Protect, and Poison Heal, you can stall out your opponents until your PP runs out. When you add Toxic into the mix, Toxic Stalling your opponent becomes as easy as clicking Protect and Substitute. The speed is just enough to outrun max speed Landorus and Adamant Lucario, meaning that the cheeky Lucario that run Ice Punch can be outsped and OHKOd by Earthquake after SR/Life Orb Recoil. Unlike the Fling + Acrobatics set, this Gliscor can Toxic your opponent as many times as you like. Sure, you miss out on Flying STAB, but you don't really need it. With Earthquake, you can hit most of the Pokémon that are immune to Toxic, so you don't really need a Flying move at all. Gliscor has much better things to do than use Fling.

And Spinda, you're insane if you think that Pokémon don't outclass each other. I wrote the analysis on Gliscor, tested many of its sets, and I can assure you that SubToxic outclasses Fling + Acrobatics.
 
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Here's a good one



Don't use this...

Gliscor @ Toxic Orb
Trait: Poison Heal
EVs: 40 Def / 224 Spd / 244 HP
Impish Nature
- Acrobatics
- Fling
- Protect
- Earthquake


Why not?
I have seen so many people on the ladder using Fling + Acrobatics Gliscor. I know that, on paper, this seems like a really good idea. You get to Toxic something while also causing damage with Fling and then you get to use a fully powered Acrobatics! What more could you ask for, right? Well, not exactly. While the idea of having that STAB Acrobatics to hit opponents with seems nice, it actually isn't going much to anything with zero attack investment. Even if you use a different spread that maximizes attack, you won't be hitting hard with no way to boost your attack anyway (and if you're using Swords Dance on this set, why aren't you just using the AcroBat set?). Not only that, but because you're using Fling, you only get one chance to Toxic something. If you accidentally hit a Steel type, a Pokémon with Natural Cure, or something you've already statused, then you're stuck with a useless move that can't do anything. All in all, this set just can't do what Gliscor's other sets can.

...use this instead!


Gliscor @ Toxic Orb
Trait: Poison Heal
EVs: 40 Def / 224 Spd / 244 HP
Serious Nature
- Earthquake
- Protect
- Substitute
- Toxic


Why?
The SubToxic set is Gliscor's best set, and the one you should choose if you want to annoy every single battler you run into on the ladder. With the combination of Substitute, Protect, and Poison Heal, you can stall out your opponents until your PP runs out. When you add Toxic into the mix, Toxic Stalling your opponent becomes as easy as clicking Protect and Substitute. The speed is just enough to outrun max speed Landorus and Adamant Lucario, meaning that the cheeky Lucario that run Ice Punch can be outsped and OHKOd by Earthquake after SR/Life Orb Recoil. Unlike the Fling + Acrobatics set, this Gliscor can Toxic your opponent as many times as you like. Sure, you miss out on Flying STAB, but you don't really need it. With Earthquake, you can hit most of the Pokémon that are immune to Toxic, so you don't really need a Flying move at all. Gliscor has much better things to do than use Fling.

And Spinda, you're insane if you think that Pokémon don't outclass each other. I wrote the analysis on Gliscor, tested many of its sets, and I can assure you that SubToxic outclasses Fling + Acrobatics.
quick question what is the speed for breloom? and you should have impish not jolly other than that I totally agree.
 

Halcyon.

@Choice Specs
is a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
quick question what is the speed for breloom? and you should have impish not jolly other than that I totally agree.
56 Spe EVs will let you be faster than Adamant Breloom, 148 for Jolly!

And yeah I really gotta start mega-proofreading my posts on this thread >_>
 

Trainer Au

Insert custom title here
Here's a good one



Don't use this...

Gliscor @ Toxic Orb
Trait: Poison Heal
EVs: 40 Def / 224 Spd / 244 HP
Impish Nature
- Acrobatics
- Fling
- Protect
- Earthquake


Why not?
I have seen so many people on the ladder using Fling + Acrobatics Gliscor. I know that, on paper, this seems like a really good idea. You get to Toxic something while also causing damage with Fling and then you get to use a fully powered Acrobatics! What more could you ask for, right? Well, not exactly. While the idea of having that STAB Acrobatics to hit opponents with seems nice, it actually isn't going much to anything with zero attack investment. Even if you use a different spread that maximizes attack, you won't be hitting hard with no way to boost your attack anyway (and if you're using Swords Dance on this set, why aren't you just using the AcroBat set?). Not only that, but because you're using Fling, you only get one chance to Toxic something. If you accidentally hit a Steel type, a Pokémon with Natural Cure, or something you've already statused, then you're stuck with a useless move that can't do anything. All in all, this set just can't do what Gliscor's other sets can.

...use this instead!


Gliscor @ Toxic Orb
Trait: Poison Heal
EVs: 40 Def / 224 Spd / 244 HP
Impish Nature
- Earthquake
- Protect
- Substitute
- Toxic


Why?
The SubToxic set is Gliscor's best set, and the one you should choose if you want to annoy every single battler you run into on the ladder. With the combination of Substitute, Protect, and Poison Heal, you can stall out your opponents until your PP runs out. When you add Toxic into the mix, Toxic Stalling your opponent becomes as easy as clicking Protect and Substitute. The speed is just enough to outrun max speed Landorus and Adamant Lucario, meaning that the cheeky Lucario that run Ice Punch can be outsped and OHKOd by Earthquake after SR/Life Orb Recoil. Unlike the Fling + Acrobatics set, this Gliscor can Toxic your opponent as many times as you like. Sure, you miss out on Flying STAB, but you don't really need it. With Earthquake, you can hit most of the Pokémon that are immune to Toxic, so you don't really need a Flying move at all. Gliscor has much better things to do than use Fling.

And Spinda, you're insane if you think that Pokémon don't outclass each other. I wrote the analysis on Gliscor, tested many of its sets, and I can assure you that SubToxic outclasses Fling + Acrobatics.
Fling+Thief is Gliscor's best set imo.

(sarcasm)
 
Here's a good one



Don't use this...

Gliscor @ Toxic Orb
Trait: Poison Heal
EVs: 40 Def / 224 Spd / 244 HP
Impish Nature
- Acrobatics
- Fling
- Protect
- Earthquake


Why not?
I have seen so many people on the ladder using Fling + Acrobatics Gliscor. I know that, on paper, this seems like a really good idea. You get to Toxic something while also causing damage with Fling and then you get to use a fully powered Acrobatics! What more could you ask for, right? Well, not exactly. While the idea of having that STAB Acrobatics to hit opponents with seems nice, it actually isn't going much to anything with zero attack investment. Even if you use a different spread that maximizes attack, you won't be hitting hard with no way to boost your attack anyway (and if you're using Swords Dance on this set, why aren't you just using the AcroBat set?). Not only that, but because you're using Fling, you only get one chance to Toxic something. If you accidentally hit a Steel type, a Pokémon with Natural Cure, or something you've already statused, then you're stuck with a useless move that can't do anything. All in all, this set just can't do what Gliscor's other sets can.

...use this instead!


Gliscor @ Toxic Orb
Trait: Poison Heal
EVs: 40 Def / 224 Spd / 244 HP
Serious Nature
- Earthquake
- Protect
- Substitute
- Toxic


Why?
The SubToxic set is Gliscor's best set, and the one you should choose if you want to annoy every single battler you run into on the ladder. With the combination of Substitute, Protect, and Poison Heal, you can stall out your opponents until your PP runs out. When you add Toxic into the mix, Toxic Stalling your opponent becomes as easy as clicking Protect and Substitute. The speed is just enough to outrun max speed Landorus and Adamant Lucario, meaning that the cheeky Lucario that run Ice Punch can be outsped and OHKOd by Earthquake after SR/Life Orb Recoil. Unlike the Fling + Acrobatics set, this Gliscor can Toxic your opponent as many times as you like. Sure, you miss out on Flying STAB, but you don't really need it. With Earthquake, you can hit most of the Pokémon that are immune to Toxic, so you don't really need a Flying move at all. Gliscor has much better things to do than use Fling.

And Spinda, you're insane if you think that Pokémon don't outclass each other. I wrote the analysis on Gliscor, tested many of its sets, and I can assure you that SubToxic outclasses Fling + Acrobatics.
AcroFling is actually really good on certain balance teams, I haven't used such a defensive acrofling set, but I'm sure it works aswell.
0 Atk Gliscor Acrobatics (55 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Breloom: 276-328 (105.34 - 125.19%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 Atk Gliscor Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Celebi: 228-270 (56.43 - 66.83%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Those calcs alone are enough to warrant using acrofling over subtoxic on a defensive gliscor on certain more balanced teams.
More offensive acrofling sets ( I know this is about specific sets but you mentioned this in your description so I might aswell ) like

Gliscor @ Toxic Orb
Trait: Poison Heal
EVs: 252 Spd / 192 HP / 64 Atk
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Acrobatics
- Swords Dance
- Fling

are amazing on balanced teams due to being able to perform both an offensive and a defensive role depending on the situation, most steel types either just die to it or are set-up fodder, so it really isn't that big of a drama if it does hit one of those with fling, Celebi also loses to this gliscor.. Either way, not being able to poison something with fling isn't that big of a deal because it's just an added benefit, the main draw is freeing up acrobatics. Flying/Ground provides amazing coverage and many teams aren't prepared for facing this set.

No it's not outclassed and just because you haven't been able to use it to it's full potential doesn't mean it's bad. I expected better than that from you.
 

Halcyon.

@Choice Specs
is a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
Any Gliscor set that uses Acrobatics needs both Swords Dance and a way to not get revenge killed my anything with HP Ice or a water move (hell, just about any special attack can OHKO you). You need to have either Substitute or Agility or else you're a sitting duck. Why would you use that set over the regular Acrobatics set, which has Hyper Cutter instead so you can't be beaten by things like Gyarados. Also, a Jolly nature is great and all, except that even at +2, you'll find that Acrobatics won't be doing enough damage to the things you need it to. So when HP Ice Landorus-T comes in and revenge kills you, you'll wish you had Flying Gem or a Substitute. I'm sorry but that set is trying to do too many things at once. Gliscor just can't be both offensive and defensive, and it's outclassed by both SubToxic (as a Toxic spreader) and AcroBat (as a sweeper).

I understand what you're saying about Pokémon being good when the team fits them, I made the same argument about Charizard a while back. You're right when you say that any team can be built around a given set. BUT it takes considerable team building skills to be able to do that, and most of the time newer players should stick to the standard sets because they are generally the ones that are most effective. I've made teams with Charizard that have had great success. But would I ever recommend that a new player use it? No, never. It's simply outclassed.
 

Adamant Zoroark

catchy catchphrase
is a Contributor Alumnus
Here's one:

Don't use this


Jolteon @ Choice Specs
Trait: Volt Absorb
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Thunder / Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power Ice
- Signal Beam
- Volt Switch

As the OP said, it's not that this set is necessarily bad; it just has a hard time finding a niche in OU, especially with Thundurus-T running around. The only reasons you'd use this instead of Thundurus-T is because of Jolteon's higher immediate Speed and lack of a Stealth Rock weaknesses, which are both very minor, especially when considering Thundurus-T has a superior movepool and, as such, more viable sets. In addition, Thundurus-T isn't beaten by Ferrothorn and can break walls thanks to that monstrous Special Attack. Please, please.... Don't use this Jolteon set. (When I was briefly doing Jolteon's analysis, why did I make this the first set?)

Use this instead


Jolteon @ Leftovers / Life Orb
Trait: Volt Absorb
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Substitute
- Baton Pass
- Thunder / Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power Ice

This Jolteon set has a much easier time finding a niche, as it does something Thundurus-T cannot do: Baton Pass. Gary, I do not know why you decided to suggest Baton Passing Agility with Jolteon, SubPassing is better In addition, there are maybe three Pokemon that could be used for Sub-Passing in OU: Jolteon, Gliscor, and Mienshao. I'd argue that Jolteon is the best out of the three not just because it's the fastest out of the three; unlike Gliscor, Jolteon actually has offensive presence, allowing it to do more than just sit around passing Substitutes (How hard is Gliscor's Earthquake hitting things?) As for Mienshao, from my experience the only real reason you'd use SubPass Mienshao is because of Regenerator. So, if you want to use Jolteon, use this set.
 

Gary

Can be abrasive at times (no joke)
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnus
Here's one:
Don't use this


Jolteon @ Choice Specs
Trait: Volt Absorb
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Thunder / Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power Ice
- Signal Beam
- Volt Switch

As the OP said, it's not that this set is necessarily bad; it just has a hard time finding a niche in OU, especially with Thundurus-T running around. The only reasons you'd use this instead of Thundurus-T is because of Jolteon's higher immediate Speed and lack of a Stealth Rock weaknesses, which are both very minor, especially when considering Thundurus-T has a superior movepool and, as such, more viable sets. In addition, Thundurus-T isn't beaten by Ferrothorn and can break walls thanks to that monstrous Special Attack. Please, please.... Don't use this Jolteon set. (When I was briefly doing Jolteon's analysis, why did I make this the first set?)

Use this instead


Jolteon @ Leftovers / Life Orb
Trait: Volt Absorb
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Substitute
- Baton Pass
- Thunder / Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power Ice

This Jolteon set has a much easier time finding a niche, as it does something Thundurus-T cannot do: Baton Pass. Gary, I do not know why you decided to suggest Baton Passing Agility with Jolteon, SubPassing is better In addition, there are maybe three Pokemon that could be used for Sub-Passing in OU: Jolteon, Gliscor, and Mienshao. I'd argue that Jolteon is the best out of the three not just because it's the fastest out of the three; unlike Gliscor, Jolteon actually has offensive presence, allowing it to do more than just sit around passing Substitutes (How hard is Gliscor's Earthquake hitting things?) As for Mienshao, from my experience the only real reason you'd use SubPass Mienshao is because of Regenerator. So, if you want to use Jolteon, use this set.
I actually meant to put Sub + Pass in the OP instead of Agility, thanks for catching that. This is a perfect example of Jolteon's niche in OU, so thanks a lot for posting this. All out attacking Jolteon has just never been good for me over Thundurus-T, but Sub + Pass Jolteon is great for passing Subs to sweepers or getting something in for free.

Once again, I just wanted to give my reasoning for my example in the OP. I wasn't comparing Jolteon itself to Thundurus-T, I was comparing Specs/LO Jolteon to Thundurus-T. If I would have compared the Sub Baton Pass set that LucaroarkZ posted above to NP Thundurus-T, then it wouldn't have made much sense.
 
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Katakiri

Listen, Brendan...
is a Researcher Alumnus
The Jolteon/Thundurus-T talk isn't the point, though. I just don't agree with this thread in its entirety and believe it's a bad influence on new players.
It's so ridiculously subjective, blowing the benefits way out of proportion while ignoring the cons, basically just making it the preference of the poster, while new players should find out what works for them, I wouldn't encourage anyone to read this thread for those reasons.
I completely agree with you. It's a novel concept and could work if a lot more thought was put in on the "what not to use" side of the arguments, but that doesn't seem to be the case some of the time. There's also the matter that some Pokemon and even sets shouldn't be compared. The Cloyster post on the first page is a great example of something that should be compared and there are a lot of good posts like that such as Shurtugal's Gatr vs Azumarill that show the Pokemon comparisons can work. The issues stems from what we're comparing and why. Do they do the same job in the same way? If not, that might be an issue.

You hit the nail on the head with the Thundurus-T & Jolteon example. Thundurus-T doesn't have the speed to sweep a lot of teams; power, yes, but power doesn't mean much if you can't even use it. My current team laughs at Thundurus-T but it is relatively weak to Jolteon late-game because Jolteon can attack my Latios & Terrakion first and sweep through my team if it's weakened enough. I do have a Pokemon that walls them both but, when it goes down, Thundurus-T still can't sweep; Jolteon can. They are very different Pokemon and one doesn't out-class the other.

I'm honestly really surprised that this one hasn't been brought up yet:

Don't use this....


Infernape @ Focus Sash
Trait: Blaze
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spd / 4 SpA
Naive Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Overheat
- Close Combat
- Fake Out / Taunt

If you're going to use Infernape in OU, please don't use the lead set. It's just so outclassed by a lot of other hazard leads that I just don't see that much of a use for this thing. Fire/Fighting is by no means a bad typing, especially sense it's good against a lot of other common leads, but the biggest problem lies in Infernape's lack of instant power and the fact that its best STAB is neutered by a very dominant playstyle in the form of rain. Even when fully invested, Infernape's Attack only reaches a depressing 307, while its Special Attack is only 244. This set basically just sets up SR, and then dies. Unlike Skarmory and Forretress who can lay both Spikes and SR, and Terrakion who can pose a offensive threat right from the start with its already high Attack stat and amazing dual STABs that aren't nuetered by weather. This set is just so outclassed that I don't see any reason to use it. Go back to Gen 4, kid.

Use this instead...


Terrakion @ Focus Sash
Trait: Justified
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spd / 4 HP
Jolly Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Close Combat
- Stone Edge
- Taunt

Terrakion is arguably the best SR lead right now due to its amazing dual typing, great speed, and awesome power. There isn't much in the tier that's safe from a Close Combat or a Stone Edge, and the ones that can are usually Taunt bait anyway, like Skarmory and Forretress. Terrakion has the ability to outspeed common Custap leads as well and keep them from doing their job. There really isn't much more to explain about this set, because it's so obviously good at getting the job done that it really doesn't need much explanation, and it's Terrakion. If you're looking for a team that needs an offensive SR lead, then Terrakion is probably your best bet. Even Lead Garchomp faces a bit of competition from this set, because Terrakion is faster and has access to Taunt.
I have a bit of a problem with this one. There's plenty of reason to use lead Infernape. Infernape can both prevent set up and scout items with Fake Out. Politoed is an issue but you have an idea of what set it's running after you use Fake Out. Not being burned and losing Sash on Scald is always nice as well. Fake Out to break Sturdy then Overheat eliminates Lead Skarmory instantly. While I don't agree with the EV choice for that Infernape set, Infernape can at least do some damage to the ever so common lead Landorus-T with Overheat (and Scout for Lefties or Scarf with Fake Out) on top of always beating Lead Terrakion itself thanks to Fake Out; Terrakion will either get up SR but get no damage on Infernape or damage Infernape but miss out on Stealth Rock.

It has far more problems than Terrakion and definitely lacks power so Infernape may not always be worth it, but it goes both ways. Infernape has plenty of merit and does enough that Terrakion can't that they shouldn't be directly compared in the first place. They're both leads that carry Stealth Rock but just about everything else they do is different.

I'm not trying to bust chops here, but more thought needs to be put into some of these comparisons.
 

Celever

the bear becomes the ringleader
is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributor
Instead of posting in this thread to complain why not... not post and let the thread carry on happily?
 
Any Gliscor set that uses Acrobatics needs both Swords Dance and a way to not get revenge killed my anything with HP Ice or a water move (hell, just about any special attack can OHKO you). You need to have either Substitute or Agility or else you're a sitting duck. Why would you use that set over the regular Acrobatics set, which has Hyper Cutter instead so you can't be beaten by things like Gyarados. Also, a Jolly nature is great and all, except that even at +2, you'll find that Acrobatics won't be doing enough damage to the things you need it to. So when HP Ice Landorus-T comes in and revenge kills you, you'll wish you had Flying Gem or a Substitute. I'm sorry but that set is trying to do too many things at once. Gliscor just can't be both offensive and defensive, and it's outclassed by both SubToxic (as a Toxic spreader) and AcroBat (as a sweeper).

I understand what you're saying about Pokémon being good when the team fits them, I made the same argument about Charizard a while back. You're right when you say that any team can be built around a given set. BUT it takes considerable team building skills to be able to do that, and most of the time newer players should stick to the standard sets because they are generally the ones that are most effective. I've made teams with Charizard that have had great success. But would I ever recommend that a new player use it? No, never. It's simply outclassed.
That's actually the set Water Tribe used and had consistent success with, the team wasn't built around it, but it fit the team incredibly well and no other set would've worked in it's place to achieve the same amount of success. Hyper cutter is great and all but the ability to absorb status and regenerating health is incredibly useful.
Acrofling isn't a toxic spreader, and it isn't strictly a sweeper, although it does get the opportunity to do so countless of times.
When I help a newer player I actually encourage them to try less standard things because it's hard to adapt from a mindset of only using standard pokemon, when they evolve as a player they'll actually have a easier time teambuilding and figuring out what fits their team, due to their experience with less standard pokemon and sets, even if they don't have immediate success with the pokemon, they'll still get to see what it can do and that can help them in the future when they do have a better idea of teambuilding.
Encouraging them to be creative, encouraging them to explore all of their options, perhaps with a little bit of a helping hand is the key to make them eventually become an amazing player, rather than an average one. When I try to help a friend get into pokemon, I keep an open mind and don't let my preferences affect my judgement either, because they need to learn to adapt the pokemon they use to their own playstyle, it's a personal thing. I don't think there's an early enough time to just explore, rather than following threads like these. It's how I started, it's how all of the friends I helped get into pokemon started, and it has brought success.

Instead of posting in this thread to complain why not... not post and let the thread carry on happily?
Because this is in my opinion misguiding new players, which is the opposite of what smogon should be doing, if we're comparing pokemon that don't even do the same thing, we could confuse new players significantly, this is about the future of competitive pokemon players.
 
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Gary

Can be abrasive at times (no joke)
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If you don't agree with this thread, then don't post here, simple as that. Let the people who do like this thread to continue posting and contribute. No need to ruin it for everybody else. If the OU moderators really had a problem with this thread, then it wouldn't have been created or managed to stay up for this long. A subject like this is very controversial, and disagreeing is fine, but when people come on this thread and try to derail it, I wont allow that.
 
If you don't agree with this thread, then don't post here, simple as that. Let the people who do like this thread to continue posting and contribute. No need to ruin it for everybody else. If the OU moderators really had a problem with this thread, then it wouldn't have been created or managed to stay up for this long. A subject like this is very controversial, and disagreeing is fine, but when people come on this thread and try to derail it, I wont allow that.
I am merely of the opinion that controversial threads should have feedback from both sides, because readers should know how controversial it is.
If there was a thread about how OP Keldeo was, would I be derailing it by proposing arguments suggesting otherwise?
 

Celever

the bear becomes the ringleader
is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributor
But there is no need to post that a thread is bad. Obviously you have your opinions on this thread but the thread has been successful in other tiers and no one has complained about it. The point of the thread is to help noobs pick the pokemon who is best for their team over a pokemon who could make the team worse. It is also a place for experienced players to vent on the dumb stuff they see on the ladder and why another pokemon should be used over it. What's wrong with that?
 

Gary

Can be abrasive at times (no joke)
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnus
I am merely of the opinion that controversial threads should have feedback from both sides, because readers should know how controversial it is.
If there was a thread about how OP Keldeo was, would I be derailing it by proposing arguments suggesting otherwise?
Your posts about disagreeing with sets are fine, but if you want to continue posting here, then don't continue to complain about how you dislike the thread itself. Clearly you've made your point, people have heard your opinion, and now we move on. Creating arguments saying why you disagree with this thread is not considered staying on topic, and is thus derailing the thread. If you're on some kind of mission to get this thread removed, well that's not going to happen unless I'm contacted by a mod telling me that this thread is in the wrong. Like Clever said, this has been very successful in other sub forums, and I would hate for it to be ruined here.
 
But there is no need to post that a thread is bad. Obviously you have your opinions on this thread but the thread has been successful in other tiers and no one has complained about it. The point of the thread is to help noobs pick the pokemon who is best for their team over a pokemon who could make the team worse. It is also a place for experienced players to vent on the dumb stuff they see on the ladder and why another pokemon should be used over it. What's wrong with that?
Because from my point of view, especially considering some of the examples, it doesn't help noobs pick what's best for their team at all.
Pokemon that are obviously outclassed also aren't allowed, and pokemon that aren't obviously outclassed actually have big benefits over other pokemon that make it work on other teams, meaning experienced players can't even rant about any pokemon unless they include the team it was on.
This will be my last post here, but if this thread becomes popular and the examples don't start getting limited to pokemon who perform the same role the same way, I seriously fear for the next generation of pokemon players.

I'm sorry if I made it seem like I hated the thread itself, I just hated the idea of the majority of sets posted.
 

Gary

Can be abrasive at times (no joke)
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnus
Because from my point of view, especially considering some of the examples, it doesn't help noobs pick what's best for their team at all.
Pokemon that are obviously outclassed also aren't allowed, and pokemon that aren't obviously outclassed actually have big benefits over other pokemon that make it work on other teams, meaning experienced players can't even rant about any pokemon unless they include the team it was on.
This will be my last post here, but if this thread becomes popular and the examples don't start getting limited to pokemon who perform the same role the same way, I seriously fear for the next generation of pokemon players.
Well then I guess all the other metagames that have adopted this thread are doomed to the same fate. I guess we're all going down together.
 

Katakiri

Listen, Brendan...
is a Researcher Alumnus
If you don't agree with this thread, then don't post here, simple as that. Let the people who do like this thread to continue posting and contribute. No need to ruin it for everybody else. If the OU moderators really had a problem with this thread, then it wouldn't have been created or managed to stay up for this long. A subject like this is very controversial, and disagreeing is fine, but when people come on this thread and try to derail it, I wont allow that.
Now hold on; Spinda has a valid point but I think he's going about it the wrong way, but even so I agree he is derailing the thread longer than it should be so I'll keep this brief.

The concept of this thread is great; comparing two Pokemon with similar attributes and roles, and how they preform. Helpful for newcomers and informative to veterans. A fantastic idea!

However, that is not what this thread is or at least not what it's advertised to be. Gary, I don't mean to pick on you, but your Jolteon/Thundurus comparison in the OP is just the perfect example of this. You're taking every flaw of Pokemon "A" and breaking them down, then taking every strength of Pokemon "B" and blowing it up to make Pokemon "A" seem inferior in every way. That helps no one, and while veterans will just overlook that or argue against it, newer players may look at it as gospel and follow advice that is largely false. And the fact that this is the structure of the OP, the post you say in big bolded letters that you want everyone to read and likely base their posts off of, is very bad and not a good example to set as a badge-holder, man. And I'm not saying every post is like this; like I said earlier, there are some great posts in this thread, but there a lot that just make one-sided arguments like that.

That said, I still love the concept and I want it to stay. However, I'd like to propose an alternative way of going about this concept:
Write about the pros AND cons of each Pokemon (analyze them a bit), then write a conclusion paragraph comparing the two and which of the two Pokemon is better and why.
Saving judgement for the last section is for a simple reason: It's so easy to make a one-sided argument by breaking down a topic into multiple pieces, but when you have to form a conclusion based on the combined parts and the combined pros and cons of each, that's where a lot of people realize that they can't just make a one-sided argument anymore and may even realize some flaws in what they thought was true.
The more pros and cons you share for each Pokemon, the more you're showing that you know both Pokemon well and have credibility.

I know it sounds like schoolwork but...welcome Smogon University! Quality and accuracy are important when you're trying to make a point.

It's of course your call in the end, but I felt all that needed to be said.
 
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