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Doubles leads; what possible ones are there?
- Thread starter StarmanXL
- Start date
Well yes and no. No Guard does affect OHKOs, iirc. But only if the No Guard Pokemon is using them which, it should be noted, is not possible at least for Machamp. You could always Skill Swap/Role Play but I'm not sure if any of them learn an OHKO move and it gets rid of the whole Scarf thing and if people recognise what's going on they're probably going to be able to take you down fairly easily.
A fast exploder + Ghost would be pretty devasting.
Like Choice ban/scarf Azelf and Trickroom Dusknoir. Azelf kills stuff and Dusknoir sets up trickroom for more pwnage next turn. The best part is if they don't protect they die and even if they double protect it means dusknoir gets his free trick room and the next pokemon is still going to wreck stuff.
EDIT: Forgot to mention azelf explodes =/
Like Choice ban/scarf Azelf and Trickroom Dusknoir. Azelf kills stuff and Dusknoir sets up trickroom for more pwnage next turn. The best part is if they don't protect they die and even if they double protect it means dusknoir gets his free trick room and the next pokemon is still going to wreck stuff.
EDIT: Forgot to mention azelf explodes =/
Uhh... Azelf is faster than Dusknoir. If Azelf uses Explosion, it's going to go before Dusknoir uses Trick Room.
Ive been looking at shuckle and guard swap for a while, not sure if its really that viable, but something I may try out.
Guard Swap only swaps stat changes, not the stats themselves.
If you want to have 2v2 fun with Shuckle, use Power Trick.
Wow, I didn't expect this to get such a response. >_>
Anyway, about Power Trick TR Shuckle, is it really that useful? I mean, does it even have the movepool to pull that off?
And about all this double Intimidate, do you think that would make Special leads all that more common? Probably stuff packing T-Bolt or Power Gem or something to kill Gyarados and Salalence, although I can't be sure.
One last thing; wouldn't Cherrim and Groudon be a killer combo in Ubers? Although I'm not really sure, since I'm not to savy on the Uber metagame...
Anyway, about Power Trick TR Shuckle, is it really that useful? I mean, does it even have the movepool to pull that off?
And about all this double Intimidate, do you think that would make Special leads all that more common? Probably stuff packing T-Bolt or Power Gem or something to kill Gyarados and Salalence, although I can't be sure.
One last thing; wouldn't Cherrim and Groudon be a killer combo in Ubers? Although I'm not really sure, since I'm not to savy on the Uber metagame...
Power Trick Shuckle is pure gimmick IMO it can work but Shucky doesn't have the stats to pull it off(speed wise) after power trick your left with a shucky with base 10 defense which is very vulnerable. TR rids you of the speed problem but it also means you have roughly 5 turns, actually 4 before switching out. It's movepool is nothing to be proud of as it only has stone edge, earthquake, Gyro ball and Return/Frustration to toy with.
I watched an interesting double battle involving Rain Dance and Hail.
This person used the following Jolteon and Froslass to begin the match with:
Jolteon - Rain Dance / Roar / Thunder / Thunder Wave. Very agile so it would naturally make a good candidate for weather summoning. It could support with Thunder Wave and to a lesser extent, make use of Volt Absorb. Thunder to attack with, of course. He didn't use Roar in the battle, but pseudo-hazing is always nice, though I would consider Helping Hand over it.
Froslass - Blizzard / Confuse Ray / Shadow Ball / Thunder. She also shares incredible speed. Confuse Ray I assume was to be used in conjunction with paralysis. Thunder is complimented by the rain, while Blizzard works the same way off hail. Shadow Ball for STAB and a little more coverage.
Abomasnow - Blizard? / ? / ? / ?. It was only sent in once to prepare an immediate hail for Froslass against Dragonite before rocketing out of the arena from Heatran's Heat Wave.
Kabutops? - Stone Edge / Swords Dance / Waterfall / X-scissor. I assume this was his last Pokemon, to work off its Swift Swim ability in the Rain. He states its moveset in the comments as well as the other two unused Pokemon.
An overall entertaining battle, I thought. That Kingdra and Vaporeon lead seems interesting as well. I'm a sucker for Rain Dance teams and Kingdra itself.
This person used the following Jolteon and Froslass to begin the match with:
Jolteon - Rain Dance / Roar / Thunder / Thunder Wave. Very agile so it would naturally make a good candidate for weather summoning. It could support with Thunder Wave and to a lesser extent, make use of Volt Absorb. Thunder to attack with, of course. He didn't use Roar in the battle, but pseudo-hazing is always nice, though I would consider Helping Hand over it.
Froslass - Blizzard / Confuse Ray / Shadow Ball / Thunder. She also shares incredible speed. Confuse Ray I assume was to be used in conjunction with paralysis. Thunder is complimented by the rain, while Blizzard works the same way off hail. Shadow Ball for STAB and a little more coverage.
Abomasnow - Blizard? / ? / ? / ?. It was only sent in once to prepare an immediate hail for Froslass against Dragonite before rocketing out of the arena from Heatran's Heat Wave.
Kabutops? - Stone Edge / Swords Dance / Waterfall / X-scissor. I assume this was his last Pokemon, to work off its Swift Swim ability in the Rain. He states its moveset in the comments as well as the other two unused Pokemon.
An overall entertaining battle, I thought. That Kingdra and Vaporeon lead seems interesting as well. I'm a sucker for Rain Dance teams and Kingdra itself.
I've been playing with something on PBR Wifi doubles... They aren't leads, but when they are on the field at the same time, good things happen.
Breloom + Skarmory... Breloom Spores, and Skarmory uses Toxic on Breloom, activating Poison Heal. My Breloom has a Life Orb, therefore taking 10% damage but healding 12.5% every turn.
The Choice Band set in the analysis made me think of this.. "A Choice Banding Breloom that can heal 1/8 every turn would kick ass."
Quite awesome.
Breloom + Skarmory... Breloom Spores, and Skarmory uses Toxic on Breloom, activating Poison Heal. My Breloom has a Life Orb, therefore taking 10% damage but healding 12.5% every turn.
The Choice Band set in the analysis made me think of this.. "A Choice Banding Breloom that can heal 1/8 every turn would kick ass."
Quite awesome.
Well, I seem to remember Jibaku using Helping hand Latios or Latias(Can't remember) in tandem with Choice Scarf Kyogre for Uber doubles.
And for OU, I like Bronzong+Camerupt with Bronzong using TR and Life Orb Camerupt Protecting. Next turn LO Eruption to lay a hurting while Bronzong uses Gyro to kill anything that may survive.
I also like Duggy+Typhlosion. Duggy prevents the quick switch to Bliss while Scarfed/Specs'd Typhlosion outspeeds and lays a hurting on them with Eruption!
And for OU, I like Bronzong+Camerupt with Bronzong using TR and Life Orb Camerupt Protecting. Next turn LO Eruption to lay a hurting while Bronzong uses Gyro to kill anything that may survive.
I also like Duggy+Typhlosion. Duggy prevents the quick switch to Bliss while Scarfed/Specs'd Typhlosion outspeeds and lays a hurting on them with Eruption!
i believe wormadam(ground) is the only pokemon that has skill swap and fissure and has decent defenses(85 def, 105 sp.def), but it's speed is base 36.
Power Trick Shuckle is no Gimmick as long as you use Trick Room and Power Trick in the Same Turn in Doubles.
From Personal Expiriance, Giratina + Exploding Azelf/Selfdestruct Mewtwo in the Uber Environment have pretty good results as leads in PBR Wi-Fi.
If you have XD, you can also play around with a Follow Me Electvire, especially if your Partner is Gyrados.
From Personal Expiriance, Giratina + Exploding Azelf/Selfdestruct Mewtwo in the Uber Environment have pretty good results as leads in PBR Wi-Fi.
If you have XD, you can also play around with a Follow Me Electvire, especially if your Partner is Gyrados.
Just to clear things up, No Guard does affect OHKOs. However, it only works when the Pokemon with No Guard is using or being hit by a OHKO, and, since no No Guard Pokemon knows OHKOs, you'd have to use Mimic for this to help you (Mimic Sheer Cold, use Follow Me Pokemon as the rather sturdy No Guard Pokemon Sheer Colds stuff). The part about OHKOs not having a chance to "break through" it to break through Detect and Protect. Of course, OHKOs are still banned in 2v2 as far as most rules go, so use this at your own risk.
"Obi mode" could still work, but I would do it a little differently if I decided to use it.
Fast, Powerful Exploder / Selfdestructer (this is incredibly important: you have to OHKO the opponent and be faster, or they can hit the next guy, ruining everything) in slot 1...
Smeargle @ Focus Sash
- Agility
- Spore
- Endeavor
- Seismic Toss / Extremespeed / Perish Song / Explosion / not-Extremespeed priority move
And then add the usual Fake Outer. If Smeargle is hit, you fail. You also don't have the tactical advantage of being able to Endure again later. You could still use Endure + Salac to get rid of these problems, but I find the utility of multiple Endures and the ability to take multiple hits turn 1 is less than the probability that they will have a Choice Scarf Pokemon faster than a Salac Smeargle.
Alternately, you could use a Trick Roomer and a level 1 Smeargle. The goal here would be to set up Trick Room turn 1 with something like a defensive Bronzong, and maybe use Explosion with your other Pokemon. Bring out Smeargle at level 1 with as low Speed as possible that's holding a Focus Sash. If there is one Pokemon you can't OHKO with Explosion, you can hit it with Endeavor letting Bronzong's Explosion finish it off, and bring in a slow Fake Outer. There are other ways to do this, but that's just one idea.
Of course, this still has Ghost troubles, even more than End-Salac versions, because now you can die to hits or status.
"Obi mode" could still work, but I would do it a little differently if I decided to use it.
Fast, Powerful Exploder / Selfdestructer (this is incredibly important: you have to OHKO the opponent and be faster, or they can hit the next guy, ruining everything) in slot 1...
Smeargle @ Focus Sash
- Agility
- Spore
- Endeavor
- Seismic Toss / Extremespeed / Perish Song / Explosion / not-Extremespeed priority move
And then add the usual Fake Outer. If Smeargle is hit, you fail. You also don't have the tactical advantage of being able to Endure again later. You could still use Endure + Salac to get rid of these problems, but I find the utility of multiple Endures and the ability to take multiple hits turn 1 is less than the probability that they will have a Choice Scarf Pokemon faster than a Salac Smeargle.
Alternately, you could use a Trick Roomer and a level 1 Smeargle. The goal here would be to set up Trick Room turn 1 with something like a defensive Bronzong, and maybe use Explosion with your other Pokemon. Bring out Smeargle at level 1 with as low Speed as possible that's holding a Focus Sash. If there is one Pokemon you can't OHKO with Explosion, you can hit it with Endeavor letting Bronzong's Explosion finish it off, and bring in a slow Fake Outer. There are other ways to do this, but that's just one idea.
Of course, this still has Ghost troubles, even more than End-Salac versions, because now you can die to hits or status.
Perhaps something like this could work:
Clefable @ Leftovers
Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP, 252 SpDef, 6 SpAtk
Follow Me
Protect
Wish
Ice Beam
With a standard Life Orb'er Rayquaza...
Turn 1: Clefable uses Follow Me, Rayquaza uses Dragon Dance
Turn 2: Clefable uses Protect, Rayquaza uses Outrage
Turn 3: Clefable uses Follow Me, Rayquaza uses Outrage
Turn 4: Clefable uses Protect, Rayquaza uses Outrage or switches.
This ensures Rayquaza gets in at least 1 DD'd LO'd Outrage. With some luck, you will be able to get in two and if you can (without being confused), you automatically get a third.
Turn 5/6: Clefable uses the same thinking as turns 1-4/5. Utilize the lefties recovery and it's nice HP/decent SpDef using Protect to slowly recover your HP. Allow your team to stat up while you absorb hits. Try to slip in a Wish when you can to increase your survivability.
Works better with Reflect/LS up.
Clefable @ Leftovers
Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP, 252 SpDef, 6 SpAtk
Follow Me
Protect
Wish
Ice Beam
With a standard Life Orb'er Rayquaza...
Turn 1: Clefable uses Follow Me, Rayquaza uses Dragon Dance
Turn 2: Clefable uses Protect, Rayquaza uses Outrage
Turn 3: Clefable uses Follow Me, Rayquaza uses Outrage
Turn 4: Clefable uses Protect, Rayquaza uses Outrage or switches.
This ensures Rayquaza gets in at least 1 DD'd LO'd Outrage. With some luck, you will be able to get in two and if you can (without being confused), you automatically get a third.
Turn 5/6: Clefable uses the same thinking as turns 1-4/5. Utilize the lefties recovery and it's nice HP/decent SpDef using Protect to slowly recover your HP. Allow your team to stat up while you absorb hits. Try to slip in a Wish when you can to increase your survivability.
Works better with Reflect/LS up.
Yeah I've been finding Obi mode not too great this time around. Agility version gets pwned by focus sashers which seem to be quite common when I play and also ghosts, and the endure version gets pwned by scarfers.
But when using Obi Mode, I've been using Skuntank for the sorta surprise that it can actually learn Explosion, so I just slap on a scarf and do that.
But when using Obi Mode, I've been using Skuntank for the sorta surprise that it can actually learn Explosion, so I just slap on a scarf and do that.
Wow, without even knowing the existance of this thread I just spent 2 hours typing up a 2v2 counter guide.
Link: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?p=638824#post638824
-pew
Link: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?p=638824#post638824
-pew
Couldn't you setup Power Trick Shuckle very effectively though?
Shuckle [Relaxed] @ Life Orb
-Power Trick
-Stone Edge
-EQ
-filler
with it's partner as a Trick Roomer with Lagging Tail (IIRC makes you attack last), shuckle will use Power Trick (the third pokémon to move, 15 speed lowest ftw) and your trick roomer can use trick room.
Of course, you'll switch out quickly.
Shuckle [Relaxed] @ Life Orb
-Power Trick
-Stone Edge
-EQ
-filler
with it's partner as a Trick Roomer with Lagging Tail (IIRC makes you attack last), shuckle will use Power Trick (the third pokémon to move, 15 speed lowest ftw) and your trick roomer can use trick room.
Of course, you'll switch out quickly.