Dawgie
"Utilizes belly drum so can't be Tier 1" is stupid reasoning but you can't just ignore the weaknesses that having to spend a turn Belly Drumming exposes you to, and the consequent bulk that Azu loses.
You utilize the "after 1 turn" clause a lot. That's like anywhere from 1/8 to 1/16th of a game. Probably losing a mon to get that to happen, and only getting setup, not killing things yet. There are lots of games where due to some slipup or Jirachi flinches azu goes below 50% and then it just sits there doing nothing or trying to Ajet a Kangaskhan down or something.
This point is pretty poor im not gonna lie, you just argued "if you dont play well or flinch, it doesnt work" - Congrats I guess, you solved the metagame!
Dawgie
Yeah sure +6 ajets hit harder than Talonflame's Bbird but Talon gets to attack the first turn it's out and it's a faster priority while also being a better offensive typing. The implication that azu's priority is better than Talon's doesn't hold water.
At not point did I argue that talonflame was better off the mark or had worse priority than azumarill. I really dont get where you get this raging lust for talonflame from... Good players just dont let you use talonflame well... you either have to call a switch to a resisting mon for (brave bird or flare blitz), or just get intimidated...
Dawgie
Petty teambuilding jab aside, the point of saying "You have to have Fake Out or redirection" isn't just focused on trying to say that team options are rather gimped but that if you try to setup Azu without your partner at that very moment being one of the two (fake out vs spread, fm vs two single target hitters) you're not getting to set up. It's just not going to happen, unless your opponent has Azumarill bait: the team.
Super false assumption, there are numerous scenarios where azumarill can come in and boost without needing Fake out or follow me support - Namely, when pokemon on the other side of the field are intimidated / one or both are about to be Ko'ed by the partner of azumarill / one or both offer no offensive pressure against azumarill.
Dawgie
Azu's also impossible to switch into anything: even something resisted like a Secret Sword is going to feel bad, while anything not resisted is KO'ing for the most part.
The damage calc can be found at
http://pokemonshowdown.com/damagecalc/, in case you hadn't yet found it:
252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Azumarill: 375-442 (92.8 - 109.4%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
Ps. you might not know, but some azumarills carry sitrus berry :o
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Dawgie
Talon deserves tier 1 because going first in doubles is so incredibly important. Being faster than your counters, even, is very useful. For example, say you're running Latios + Heatran vs Aegislash + Keldeo. The pure "1v1s" are on both sides of the court, Latios beats Keldeo which beats Heatran which beats Aegis which beats Latios. But since my threats are faster I win because I capitalize on my good matchups while avoiding the bad matchups - I have all the choices due to being faster.
Disregarding how condescending this comment is, it is as bad as people who consistently talk in doubles about how well Pokemon beat others 1 on 1. The situation regards all possible options that can be made
Also btw, the aegislash player can protect keldeo, and shadow ball latios for the win too if called correctly, this is literally a 50/50. Both players have choices in this scenario.
Dawgie
Players like utilizing switches to preserve weakened mons or avoid SE hits and stuff because, simply put, that's smart play - Talon thrives in this environment. It lacks comfortable switchins outside of Heatran and Thundurus (even this can be awkward: do you really want to take a overheat or Flare Blitz to the face?) while being able to revenge KO anything. Kangaskhan at 50%? Gone. LandoT got tickled a little? Now it has to run away or die. Copypaste for any threat in the game.
This is something that talonflame does well, but as your scenario indicated above, doubles has 2 pokemon on the field at once!!!! Whilst talonflame can pressure anything at 50% it doesn't have to run away or die, because there is a really cool move that people in doubles sometimes like to use:
This is where the original point in the OP regarding talonflame frail nature really comes into account, talonflame can never afford to be targeting the wrong slot, not even for a turn, it is a super high risk for an [81 base attack] reward.
Dawgie
Amoonguss has higher attack than Talon" is a stupid meme because raw stats mean little when you have two base 120 STABs while the average is ~80 to 90. For reference Talon does more damage than Metagross-Mega which has like base 140 and a free Life Orb ability.
You called comparing amoongus silly, whilst here comparing a mega which was recently affirmed in tier 3. Ok.
Dawgie
The reason Talonflame is quite powerful isn't that it ohkos a large portion of the meta, it's the fact that it gives you the offensive pressure you need to take command of a game and force your opponent to play around it. If you bring a Talonflame on a Hydreigon that's at 55% something dies, no matter what. The same couldn't be said of Latios, because Aegislash just switches in or w/e - these easy, comfortable switchins don't exist for Talonflame, and you can't bring in a faster mon that can tank a Bbird and KO it first the next turn because it's literally the fastest thing in this game.
Your argument is built around the idea that nothing can switch into talonflame. I dont want to link the Damage calculator again dude, but Bulky Kang / Cresselia / Heatran / rotom w / suicune / gyarados / rotom h / Diancie / are just a few common pokemon that are not 2hkoed by
THE BEST OFFENSIVE TYPING IN THE GAME OMG. Furthermore, talonflame quite literally kills its own pressure, via literally killing itself,
Dawgie
In general I think trying to cross reference Talon to Azu and comparing them side by side is flawed and detracting from the point, but even so having to take a turn makes Azumarill a completely different threat than Talonflame. Talonflame comes in and has immediate impact and preys on weakened opponents, while Azumarill is all about finding the right moment and getting rid of pesky shit (like Talonflame itself, wowzer) and avoiding threatening attackers. Also I find it strange that you make a huge deal out of Talonflame not being able to switch into anything (not true fwiw, I've switched into Fighting STABs, Fairy coverage, and Eq's a lot, as well as tanking some Tran hit while I KO it or an Aegislash Flash Cannon on my Diancie, etc etc etc you get the point) or lacking defensive synergy when Azumarill also has the same issues of lacking the ability to switch into anything and still function as a threat.
Tldr:
you missed the entire point of the comparison. They have different roles, but both still, in order to be tier 1 have to be able to tick off the requirements that we have listed for tier 1 pokemon. Azumarill, ticks these off without a shadow of a doubt when compared to how much talonflame struggles to do so. I'm not meaning this as a cheap shot, but again the point that you didnt answer in my OP is an explanation of why Talonflame, correct me if I'm wrong, is a severely bottom ended pokemon, with extremely limited success among higher placed games and better players. I dont think "ease of beating new / bad players" should be a feature of tier 1 pokemon.
Tlldr:
Play some non-idiots with talonflame, see how it goes.
