DP Garchomp

[JabbaTheGriffin]

It's the best Pokemon in OU by a fairly large margin. I don't see why the analysis shouldn't reflect that.

"If your team is not prepared for this set with at least two "counters", you will lose an overwhelming majority of your matches." is also an exaggeration. Look at two of the most recent successful teams, husk's and ipl's offensive teamsor even Aldaron's offensive team many months back. Did any of them have Garchomp counters? No, they just brought it down with sheer offense and speed, all three of their teams were very successful.

They handled threats in a different way. One could say a Garchomp "counter" on an offensive team is a Pokemon that outspeeds Garchomp and can hit it hard. And the fact that you need at least 2 of these holds true for glass cannon teams.

 

[Great Sage]

Saying that it's the best Pokemon in OU is fine, because it is. While such claims always have a degree of subjectivity, that it is the only OU Pokemon currently being considered for Uber status attests to that claim.

 

[jrrrrrrr]

you didn't even consider any of my fixes............... not even the most simple ones like 'Pokemon'.......

EDIT:
<@Hipmonlee> those seem like good suggestions
<@Hipmonlee> reading over it

I hope this will actually encourage you to at least read and consider some...

I did read them and I think they are good. I just haven't had a chance to update it yet. Check when I last edited the OP. The analysis has been shoddy for months, what's another day?

SubChomp has to be sorted into Bright Powder and Salac. Bright Powder Garchomp is trying to take advantage of Sand Veil to gain free turns, SubSalacChomp is using Substitutes to activate Salac Berry to sweep. The item isn't a minor change, they play completely differently.

I've already addressed this. Both sets are using substitute and sand veil to their advantage. BOTH sets are using substitute to get free turns, BOTH sets are using substitute to get free swords dances. An extra 8% of luck compared to a speed boost is entirely a style preference. You are subbing solely to get an SD in at some point. There is no difference other than the choice of: do you want to sweep by outspeeding things or by having a sub up?

Also, the SubSalacChomp set needs an EV spread of 60 HP / 248 Atk / 200 Spe with a Jolly nature. If you do keep the set how it currently is, at least give it 30 Spe IV to have Salac activate after three Substitutes.

This EV spread is clearly already in the analysis. Did you even read it?

An item change is not necessarily a minor difference. Why are both Garchomp and Heracross separated into Band/Scarf sets? It's just a "style change", whether you'd like more speed or more power. Why do you think Bulky Gyarados and Life Orb Gyara are separated into different sets? It's just a "style change", whether you'd like more offensive capabilities or can take hits better.

Once again, I've already addressed this. CSChomp and CBChomp (and Heracross too) are played completely differently. The scarfers are used exclusively as revenge killers while the banders are used to dish damage out. The CBers are played recklessly while the scarfers use opportunity to their advantage.

I agree with Chris. Even if it is Opinions, saying things like "Garchomp is without question the best pokemon in OU." is too subjective. We can all agree that "Garchomp is a top-tier OU, perhaps THE best Pokemon in OU.", but to state it like fact is going too far. I always will prefer Lucario for a Swords Dancer for the simple fact that it gets Extremespeed and Bullet Punch so it will not be revenge-killed as easily.

All statistical and empirical evidence point to Garchomp being the best pokemon in OU. Preference is fine for team building, but this is a GARCHOMP analysis, not a team building guide. Every pokemon guide hypes the pokemon up, and guides for the shitty pokemon tell you how shitty they are.

"If your team is not prepared for this set with at least two "counters", you will lose an overwhelming majority of your matches." is also an exaggeration. Look at two of the most recent successful teams, husk's and ipl's offensive teams, or even Aldaron's offensive team many months back. Did any of them have Garchomp counters? No, they just brought it down with sheer offense and speed, all three of their teams were very successful.

husk and ipl both had pokemon faster than Garchomp that could hit it hard. Using revenge killers is how offensive teams counter things. If you actually looked at husk or ipl's teams you would realize that any smart player using garchomp is going to get at least one kill, reiterating the need for at least two pokemon that can beat it.

I think this analysis needs to be redone, more professionally and objectively. The current analysis does not emphasize Garchomp's power enough, but yours over-emphasizes it.

Once again, my analysis only hypes Garchomp in the opinions section and the sd set (the best set in ou). If you looked at other analyses you would realize that mine is tamer than most of them (i.e. Kyogre). Analyses are always subjective, lol. Unless you can say something more than "unprofessional" I am not buying that argument since I think it would be both unprofessional and irresponsible to not hype Garchomp in its ANALYSIS.

But not an absurdly excessive amount!

It's not an absurdly excessive amount. In case you guys didnt notice I cut a large portion of the analysis out because I didn't touch it. The only sections with anything that could be considered as hype are the SD set and the Opinions section.

analogy to your flygon analysis and to the gyarados analysis

I'm not comparing garchomp to anything specific, nor am i doing it in nearly every section. Garchomp is better than Gyarados so of course it should be hyped more.

I don't hype Garchomp for "half of the analysis". If you paid attention, there are about 5 total sentences that hype Garchomp at all.


I'll update it tonight and I'll edit this post when I do so that you guys can keep commenting.

edit- its updated

 

[RaikouLover]

We can agree to disagree about Garchomp being the best pokemon in OU, but I still think an analysis shouldn't say that so outright. Even adding the word probably before it makes it more reasonable. The whole point of analysis is to provide positive models for players to use and let them decide for themselves. Saying "Garchomp is arguably / probably / possibly the best pokemon in OU and is currently being debated for Uber status" sounds a lot better for an a simple "Garchomp is (by far) the best pokemon in OU" because many players will disagree with that statement and it is a highly subjective argument.

Garchomp is better than Gyarados so of course it should be hyped more.

To play devil's advocate (I actually want to catch you on the Smogon server so we can have a nice Garchomp argument :-D), Gyarados actually sweeps better than Garchomp IMO, but Gyarados also has more counters. I would say Garchomp does more things better, but Gyarados is better at running through a teams than Garchomp is.

 

[junior]

Yeah, I found while I was reading it that the analysis was quite biased. Gouki pointed it out before I started, actually, and I had to agree with him on most parts!

I would just call it a 'very capable Pokemon' or 'one of the best'. It's better to have a little modality IMO.

Also, jrr, oh.. I thought you didn't since you didn't respond either D:

 

[jrrrrrrr]

We can agree to disagree about Garchomp being the best pokemon in OU, but I still think an analysis shouldn't say that so outright. Even adding the word probably before it makes it more reasonable. The whole point of analysis is to provide positive models for players to use and let them decide for themselves. Saying "Garchomp is arguably / probably / possibly the best pokemon in OU and is currently being debated for Uber status" sounds a lot better for an a simple "Garchomp is (by far) the best pokemon in OU" because many players will disagree with that statement and it is a highly subjective argument

All of the analyses hype the pokemon up. I toned it down a little bit. It is not highly subjective since every analysis hypes the pokemon up.

To play devil's advocate (I actually want to catch you on the Smogon server so we can have a nice Garchomp argument :-D), Gyarados actually sweeps better than Garchomp IMO, but Gyarados also has more counters. I would say Garchomp does more things better, but Gyarados is better at running through a teams than Garchomp is.

"sweeping better" is only a part of how good a pokemon is. Garchomp does a shitload of things that Gyarados could only wish to accomplish. This isn't a Gyarados analysis thread though, so if you or chris is me or anyone else has comments about it, either make your own edit or talk to someone via PM.






Ok guys I updated with everything up to this point. I fixed the grammar and wording up.

I also toned down the only part of the analysis that features any hype to be more subjective. I personally feel that not hyping Garchomp would be irresponsible, since this is an analysis of Garchomp aka the best and most used pokemon in OU by a looooooonnnnnngggggg shot. Words along the lines of "hey this thing is actually a decent pokemon" shouldn't be discouraged, especially since pretty much every other analysis does that too. I've always viewed the analyses like a short sales pitch for using the pokemon on your team. If every analysis just said "this set uses stat ups", "this is a defensive set", etc, not only would they be boring as fuck, but I would have to spend hours reading all of the analyses trying to figure out which pokemon fits the role I want. A little bit of advertising the pokemon helps both of these along.

The only thing in this analysis that I'm not confident about is the last slot of the Choice Scarf set. I want to get rid of Crunch, but I've only gotten one opinion on it (even though it was a very cute one ^___^). If I get rid of Crunch, I'll be left with a much more reasonable four options there. I think that should be fine considering the other three moves have only one option.

I'm still game for nitpicks if there are any to make.

 

[Max]

The Scarf Garchomp set is suffering from slash-itis in the last moveslot. May I suggest just mentioning Toxic and SR in Other Options? I think that would help; tell me what you think. :d

 

[junior]

[SET]
name: Choice Scarf
move 1: Outrage
move 2: Earthquake
move 3: Fire Blast
move 4: Dragon Claw / Crunch / Stone Edge / Toxic / Stealth Rock
item: Choice Scarf
nature: Adamant / Jolly
evs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe

I like the look of this set more when I was looking over it. The bold section should be added into other sections, as Macks suggested.

 

[JabbaTheGriffin]

drop crunch why is crunch on there. dragon claw/stone edge are by far the best 2 choices. the rest are set comment-worthy.

 

[kd24]

to be honest I would only have Toxic and Dragon Claw in the last slot. Crunch you will never use. Stone Edge is helpful for gyarados and togekiss but with SR usually up as well as SS (and that damn 80% acc) it really isnt looking better then outrage which only has 20 bp less. Stealth Rock is other options material.

Toxic actually helps break the game open for stuff like lucario. you toxic gliscor, bulky waters, hippowdon (all of whom would normally counter garchomp) and wear them down. Outrage to kill Gengar. Then Lucario comes and sweeps late game. Toxic is an outstanding move on Scarfchomp. Dragon Claw is pretty helpful at times just because it still has the power to hit hard but it doesnt keep you locked in one move.

 

[Fishin]

I pretty much agree with Jabba, Dragon Claw and Stone Edge are the two best options for the last slot. Stealth Rock is certainly useful but it pretty much falls into the category of "could be an option on nearly any choice user that can learn it", as does Toxic to an extent. Crunch's coverage is pretty limited.

 

[jrrrrrrr]

Ok, I fixed the Scarf set. The only options listed in the 4th moveslot are Dragon Claw and Stone Edge. Crunch, Stealth Rock and Toxic are useful in their own right and they all get extensive coverage in the set comments, so the set itself is polished while still keeping the content there.

I'll leave it up for comments for the weekend, then I'll post the "final draft" on sunday night or monday...aka the analysis exactly as it will look in full, with all of the sets there and all of my random comments out. If nobody can find any faults with it after Tuesday, I'll put it up on Wednesday if thats cool with everyone.

Keep commenting, nitpicking, etc.

Also, don't be afraid to either suggest new sets or suggest fixes to the sets that I chose not to edit that are in the analysis. I could have missed something on the CB and the Bulky Sweeper sets.

 

[Arcaseven]

May I say that I completely agree with the decision to put Choice Scarf Garchomp in the analysis?

I use Garchomp on my Sandstorm team, and I must say it is one of - if not "the most" - useful Pokemon on my team. I've literally had someone threaten to report me after my Garchomp out sped their Deoxsys-S for the OHKO and then proceed to sweep their team. My "Gaarachomp" is also a exemplary Garchomp killer, outspeeding almost all Garchomps for the OHKO.

 

[junior]

How did I forget to finish off what I started?

<p>Of course, any counter or revenge killer has to worry about Sand Veil. With the virtually omnipresent Sand Stream activating Garchomp's trait, every move has only the maximum of 80% chance of hitting Garchomp, which makes any potential counter even less reliable.</p>

Before, it implied that all moves are only 80% accurate against Garchomp, but it varies of course!

<p>Any Ice Beam user, without STAB, needs at least 269 Special Attack to have a guaranteed OHKO on a min HP, min Special Defense Garchomp, unless Garchomp is holding a Life Orb (in which case you need 243 Special Attack if it has used an attack once, or a mere 216 Special Attack if it has attacked twice). With that in mind, Slowbro and Suicune can counter most of these sets. Starmie can switch in and OHKO the first set while it Swords Dances, and is bulky enough to shrug off an unboosted Earthquake. Outrage with Swords Dance will severely damage Suicune and Slowbro (residual damage means they lose) when Garchomp is Jolly, but allows your opponent to switch in something like Weavile or Starmie and OHKO your defenseless Garchomp. Cresselia can also switch in, set up Reflect, and threaten severely damage with Ice Beam. Cloyster can also put up a fight against Garchomp with access to Ice Shard and a Skill Linked Icicle Spear, as well as packing a base 180 Defense, but it may struggle as a Swords Danced Outrage has a good chance of OHKOing it if Stealth Rock is up. Any residual damage or Spikes means it will always lose.</p>

Cresselia cannot OHKO Garchomp anyway, unless heavy SpA EVs are invested which nobody does.

Not all Garchomps are SD etc. so 'may struggle' is better. I also removed ', though' and added a full stop. I didn't think 'though' fit in well.

<p>So long as they don't have a decent amount (~20%) of residual damage, Hippowdon and Donphan counter the Choice Band set. Hippowdon gets special mention (Removed comma - unnecessary) because it can easily Slack Off the damage it receives and switch-in every time. Slowbro can do the same but it will be 2HKOed about 50% of the time against an Adamant Choice Band Garchomp if Sandstorm is in play. As far as the Choice Scarf set goes, Gliscor completely stops it, only being 3HKOed by Fire Blast, while Skarmory can stop it as long as it is kept out of the way of Fire Blasts; other Steels are similar, but need to avoid Earthquake as well. Cresselia is an excellent counter for all sets, but shares the residual damage problem thanks to a lack of a reliable recovery move—its best bet is Rest / Sleep Talk for beating Garchomp. Celebi is another good choice. It needs Hidden Power Ice to do damage fast enough to some sets, but if it's locked into Earthquake, Celebi is pretty safe, and despite being weak to it, Celebi doesn't take much from Fire Blast. Fire Fang and Dragon Claw do not scare Celebi away, even from the Choice Bander. Celebi also has the defenses to mispredict a couple of times against something like Choice Band Outrage or Chain Chomp, as it can safely Recover later.</p>

Technically speaking then, Skarmory doesn't completely counter it.

<p>Celebi and Cresselia are two of the above counters that can switch into Chain Chomp without risking a KO next turn. Togekiss and Zapdos can take Draco Meteor and Fire Blast with a lot of Special Defense investment but watch out for Stealth Rock damage. Mantine does the same, but Mantine isn't a very good Pokémon otherwise. Repeated smart switching can wear out Draco Meteor's power (and PP) and Garchomp's HP (due to Life Orb). If Stealth Rock is not up, the damage output decreases somewhat.</p>

Removed 'and Roost it off in time' as it doesn't follow 'watch out for SR' smoothly.

I see what you're trying to do with "; you're playing with fire though", but it doesn't really seem to fit so I removed that.

<p>Most teams will want at least one bulky Steel-type to specifically take on Outrage from Choice Band or Swords Dance (Removed '+ LO - see bottom) Garchomp. Outrage is a powerful enough attack to do serious damage to (Removed evan - bad word usage) its counters, assuming they don't resist it. For example, Choice Band Outrage from Adamant Garchomp does 207-244 damage (49.3-58.1%) to 252 HP / 252 Def Impish Hippowdon. Even Jolly Garchomp has a slight chance to 2HKO Hippowdon.</p>

'to specifially' sounds better than 'specifically to' in that sentence imo. Also removed '+ Life Orb' as it is too specific. Steel-types can take on many other set variant's Outrage, like YacheChomp etc., so by removing it, it makes it more generic.

What exactly is 'that'? Since you addressed multiple nouns in your previous sentence, 'That' as the start isn't exactly clear.

 

[RaikouLover]

<p>So long as they don't have a decent amount (~20%) of residual damage, Hippowdon and Donphan counter the Choice Band set. Hippowdon gets special mention, because it can easily Slack Off the damage it receives and switch in every time

Maybe I should run calcs, but doesn't Adamant Outrage from CB Chomp 2HKO all 3 of them? I used Adamant CB Dragonite a lot, and although his attack is a bit higher I remember none of them standing a chance if they ever thought about switching in...

 

[jrrrrrrr]

ok so in case nobody heard, Garchomp got moved to Ubers....so this analysis needs to get updated.

I'll update it by the weekend with the "uber version". I'm posting here to let people know that an edit is coming, so if there are any suggestions you should let me know. Are there new sets or moves that are more viable on Garchomp in Ubers than in OU? Haban Berry is really the only thing that comes to my mind.

I also think that the "Bulky Sweeper" set should be removed completely. I mean, it was *decent* in OU, but with all of the insane SpAtkers running around in Ubers and the increased strengths of every attack, I really don't think that set is viable anymore. In my experience with Garchomp in Ubers, you HAVE to take advantage of its Speed or else you will be outclassed (and destroyed) by Palkia

any other thoughts?

i'll post again once it's up.

 

[junior]

Oof it's jrrrr, I haven't seen you in ages man.

Anyway, here are my suggestions for the sets.

• Remove the Bulky Sweeper.
• Remove all of those Fire attacks and replace with Crunch slashed with Stone Edge perhaps, except on ChainChomp.
• Dragon Claw slashed with Outrage perhaps (?). I'm not sure about this since DClaw / Earthquake / Crunch would hit most walls for around the same BP as Outrage (baring like Groudon, Kyogre and Giratina - Ogre/Groudon gets hit a mere 30 bp less though).
• Remove Brightpower from any set that has it as an option and only mention it in Other Option as it is less viable.

Opinions and Counters should be obvious so I'll leave that to you.

I'd suggest Jabba to help you work on it, since he's awesome at 'mons. ;D

 

[Shinryu]

I dunno, Fire attacks still serve a purpose as they hit Forry hard, still a bit of an option. Bulky probably needs to go, and Sub Chomp needs Bright Powder gone since you're not that likely to see SS support.

 

[cim]

Fuck the Bulky Sweeper set. It was never that good anyway, you had to make sure Garchomp never took damage for it to work...

Caelum had something started, I think. Talk to him.

I'm thinking the first set should be Choice Band Outrage / Earthquake / Crunch / Stone Edge. Crunch is for hitting hard wtihout trapping yourself and it still hits Metagross very well, so if you're trying to predict between Lugia and Metagross coming in it's a "safe option"... Choice Band also has an adantage over DD Rayquaza that it hits very hard wtih no set-up, which IIRC was Garchomp's biggest selling point.

Swords Dance Chomp has a clear advantage over SD Rayquaza in the Speed department, though at the expense of a priority attack, so including the set that got Chomp banned is a no-brainer. Hablan Berry might be a viable alternative to Yache Berry, I guess.

I can see the utiltity in the Scarf set (make it faster than Jolly Rayquaza after a Dragon Dance), especially to punish Outraging Rayquazas. Dragon Claw makes a decent 4th attack there for that purpose alone (revenge killing DD Rayquaza without leaving yourself vulnerable).

 

[Caelum]

I already talked to J7r (do people call you this now, oh well, I am) Chris and I've left it to him now. I was writing up a paragraph about Garchomp and the precedent it had on the metagame. I feel that the suspect testing/bold voting process for Smogon with Garchomp was a pretty substantial thing that a few lines should be given to it in the analysis. I also have a few lines addressing this misconception that "Garchomp sucks at ubers". J7r, myself, Maniclyrascist (I believe it was an RMT he had though) and King of Hax (not an active user here really but a really good uber player) I've seen use it to a lot of success and I feel that so many people write off Garchomp as being just a lesser Rayquaza when they function very differently and I felt that this issue needed a few lines. I'll post it when I'm done with it if everyone things mentioning those things is good.

Quick Notes though:
- Bulky sweeper is worthless
- Haban Berry needs mention on the SD set and Jolly should be the only option
- Jolly should be the only option on the Scarf set (DD Quaza, Scarf Palkia, etc.)
- Band Chomp should probably just be Jolly for the same reason (SD Quaza, Palkia etc.)
- Sub-Chomp is amazing and Brightpowder sucks in ubers.
- Other Options needs to be changed. I don't see Sleep Talk / Roar / Stealth Rock even being remotely viable in ubers. It was usable in OU (although I don't think it was ever used tbh) but in ubers Garchomp would never find the time.

In a somewhat related note after this is complete, Lugia's EV section might need modifying as well to mention the ability to outrun SD Garchomp.

 

[jrrrrrrr]

Jabba has agreed to help me re-write the analysis in light of the fact that 1) he is far more experienced with Ubers than I am and 2) i'm going to be doing other stuff in this forum this weekend. I know some other people wanted to contribute parts, they are still more than welcome. I'll edit the OP with whatever parts of each post sound best as they show up in this thread.

Among other changes that Jabba and I discussed (in addition to the ones I listed above):

- Removing the Chain Chomp set, as it is worthless in Ubers. Everything else in Ubers does it better except from almost twice as much SpAtk. chain chomp was cool in OU, but it just doesn't work in Ubers.
- changing the SD set to: sd/eq/outrage/stone edge @ haban berry/life orb
- changing nature on the scarf set to just Jolly and making it the first one listed
- mixing up a support set to include Toxic and Stealth Rock. If Groudon can do it, Garchomp can too...except faster with the option of being able to revenge kill things since most ubers are base 90 Speed.

 

[King Of Hax]

Support sets don't work well on Chomp in Ubers, as Chomp has nothing to set up on. Groudon is used to support because it can counter Rayquaza, but Garchomp can't really counter anything in ubers, since the sheer power of attacks in ubers prevent Garchomp from doing anything. All you need is:

Scarf Set
SD Set
Band Set
Sub + Salac

Those are pretty much the only sets that work on Chomp.