DP Research Thread #2 ("New")

[ΩDonut]

TRE stated several months back that if an opponent had two moves of the same power, Forewarn would alert to one and stick with that one for the rest of the match. I can confirm this is not the case - it chooses randomly between them and does not stay on a particular one.

Anyway, I've finished looking into the various Forewarn powers:

80 power: Trump Card, Flail\Reversal
120 power: Metal Burst.

I'll start looking into Forewarn's 2v2 behavior next.

EDIT: It would appear that Forewarn checks both Pokemon in 2v2 and then tells you what is the highest power move between them.

 

[Boa1891]

Oh I see why I missed it, I searched tangled feet evasion, and evasion isn't in that post...

Also, he says in that same post that confusion is still 50% hit yourself and 50% to not...... although I don't know if that means that the duration is a set amount of turns or if snapping out of confusion is included in the 50% chance to not hit yourself.....

It's widely believed (or has been) that confusion is a set number of turns and that everytime you get the "X is confused" message, the counter drops, and when it hits 0 you snap out.

I didn't get around to testing it today (I promise I'll get to it before Monday!)

I think I remember something odd with pursuit and confusion... Like the "x is confused" message didn't even appear when using pursuit against a switching Pokémon, and that it was assumed then that the counter wasn't lowered and you could not break out of confusion on that turn. I'll test this when I test confusion duration.

 

[Boa1891]

Got this message via PM and it inspired a new thought for me...

Hey, I saw one of your messages where you said that Metronome, Sleep Talk, Me First, and Copycat all trigger the Life Orb 10% HP drain. I know it doesn't trigger if you attack a substitute...are there any other irregularities? If you use Pain Split or Seismic toss or Grass Knot (weird damage, or fixed damage not based on attack, or some other variable base power) does the boost occur, and does the recoil occur, for all of them? Are there damaging moves that Life Orb doesn't trigger on? I'm assuming stealth rock/leer/etc. don't cause you to lose any health.

It doesn't trigger on a sub? I wasn't aware of that. I haven't tested them specifically, but I would bet any amount of money on the following:
Pain Split is not affected at all; Is a support move, not a damage-dealing move
Seismic Toss is not affected at all (no boost, no recoil) because it's set-damage
Grass Knot gets the boost and takes the damage because it's calculated like any other attack is. I think that Life Orb may be set to work only on attacks that trigger the RNG for damage calculation.

Has anyone tested Life Orb + Confusion? If not, I'll do it when I test confusion.

 

[CasMat]

Life orb doesn't boost set damage moves, but you still get the recoil damage. I know this because I just did it with a Night Shade Sableye.

I don't think confusion is affected by Life Orb, and I know for a fact that you don't get recoil damage from hitting yourself in confusion...

 

[Peterko]

the first page moves that still need testing...the ones that are finished in bold+italic

There are around 20 moves left, IMO every researcher should take 2 or 3 (at least one) of these and test them, except maybe metronome, which is I think impossible to test...this should only take a few days, who besides me can participate in this? move-person who will test it

Attract
Baton Pass
Bounce
Conversion
Conversion2
Disable
Encore
Fly
Gravity
Heal Block
Magic Coat
Magnitude
Me First
Metronome
Mist
Nature power (PBR)
Recycle
Sleep Talk
Snatch (3 moves)
Triple Kick
Transform




Obi I have a question: Where do you put the stuff that´s been researched after you edit it out of those first page posts? The analysis forum?


MOVES:

Attract: What is the chance of not doing something? Last I heard it was 50%.

Baton Pass: Just wondering what's passed, aside from Leech Seed, Ingrain, Perish Count, Substitute, Mean Look (both on you and your opponent) and regular stat boosts. Can you Baton Pass partial trappers (either on your own side or your opponent's) like Wrap?

Bide: Now has the same move priority as Quick Attack, Extremespeed, etc.

Bounce: What hits in charge up stage, if anything?

Conversion: Does it include itself as a potential type?

Conversion2: Does it work when the user's Substitute was hit, rather than the actual user? Is it guaranteed to change your type, or does it pick from the types that resist the last move at random? Does it only look at the last turn, or is it the last move that hit? Does the attack have to connect, or is merely using it in the Conversion2 user's direction enough?

Defense Curl: You can´t baton pass the Rollout / Ice Ball bonus

Disable: How long does it last?

Encore: How many turns does it last? Tests so far show 4-8 turns. Can anyone prove this?

Fly: Is Thunder 100% accurate? What is Fly's interaction with No Guard? I've heard some reports that it always hits Flying Pokemon, but I've also heard that moves have missed? Perhaps moves have regular accuracy...

Gravity: Gravity increases the accuracy of all Pokemon on the field by some large %. Tests show an increase of at least 40%, looks to be a 50% increase so far (thunder hit 53/53 times). Further research needs to be done.

Heal Block: Does it block Pain Split?

Magic Coat: What's returned?

Magnitude: What is the range of power / damage?

Me First: Does it copy Revenge / Avalanche?

Metronome: What can't it pick, if anything?

Minimize: Stomp doubles move power if foe uses Minimize, but it can still miss. Extrasensory´s base power is unaffected by the use of Minimize.

Mirror Move: The attack no longer needs to connect with the Pokemon using Mirror Move for it to work.

Mist: Does it block Haze, Heart Swap, Power Swap, or Intimidate?

Nature Power: What attacks are chosen in PBR?

Has some new moves chosen for the various arenas in DP:

Road / Desert = Earthquake
Building = Tri Attack
Grass / Tall grass = Seed Bomb
Cave / Mountain = Rock Slide
Snow = Blizzard
Pond / Ocean = Hydro Pump

Note that in WiFi / link battles, only one attack can be chosen, and that's Tri Attack.


Payback: Payback seems to work as advertised.

Pursuit: If a Pokemon holding a Choice Band / Choice Glasses / Choice Scarf uses Pursuit against a Pokemon switching out (and ONLY against a Pokemon switching out), they can no longer reselect a different move next turn, even if this happens on the Choice item holder's first turn in battle. They can change moves in the Japanese version of DP, but in cross-language battles, the English version's settings override it.


Recycle: Does Recycle restore an item lost to Nature Gift, Bug Bite, Pluck, Knock Off, Covet, Thief, Trick, or Switcheroo?

Recycle restores: Fling
Recycle doesn´t restore:

Secret Power: Has some new effects depending on the arena in DP:

Road / Desert = Lowers Accuracy 1 stage
Building = Paralyzes
Grass / Tall grass = Sleep
Cave / Mountain = Flinches
Snow = Freezes
Pond / Ocean = Lowers Attack 1 stage

Note that in WiFi / link battles, the only available stage is Building, so you only can paralyze with Secret Power there.

Secret Power in Battle Revolution:

Gateway - Lowers Attack
Main Street - Paralyze
Waterfall - Sleep
Neon - Paralyze
Crystal - Flinch
Sunny Park - Sleep
Magma - Flinch
Sunset - Lowers Accuracy
Courtyard - Paralyze
Stargazer - Flinch


Sleep Talk: What can't be chosen?

Snatch: Stuff that needs testing:

• Lunar Dance
• Metal Burst
• Snatch

Stuff Snatch works on:

• All self-effecting stat ups (including Belly Drum and Defense Curl)
• Substitute
• Aromatherapy
• Camouflage
• Charge
• Ingrain
• Light Screen
• Mist
• Moonlight
• Psych Up
• Recover
• Reflect
• Refresh
• Rest
• Roost
• Safeguard
• Stockpile
• Swallow
• Tailwind

Stuff Snatch doesn't work on:

• Curse (used by a Ghost or otherwise)
• Mud Sport
• Water Sport
• Wish
• Bide
• Conversion
• Destiny Bond
• Detect
• Endure
• Grudge
• Helping Hand
• Imprison
• Protect
• Recycle
• Roll Play
• Counter
• Follow Me
• Magic Coat
• Mirror Coat
• Aqua Ring
• Defog
• Gravity
• Heal Block
• Healing Wish
• Lucky Chant
• Magnet Rise
• Power Trick

Tickle: No longer hits through Substitutes.

Transform: Ditto doesn't keep the boosts from Metal Powder or Speed Powder after it Transforms, but does keep the boosts of Choice Scarf, Choice Band, and Choice Specs (last two need testing).

Triple Kick: Does Triple Kick have up to 3 chances to proc effects of held items, for instance, the Flinch from King's Rock? How about moves like Icicle Spear and Fury Swipes?

Twineedle: Contrary to popular belief, it cannot Poison Steel types.

Pokemon cannot die to Poison outside of battle. If they are taken to 1 HP and are supposed to receive more walking damage from Poison, they are cured of Poison and receive a message saying so.

 

[ΩDonut]

I'm on Encore, Disable, and Snatching Snatch. (I don't have Lunar Dance to test with.)

EDIT #1: Snatch Snatches Snatch. In a 2v2 battle, if two Pokemon use Snatch and a third uses a Snatchable move, the faster Snatcher will Snatch the Snatchable move, and the slower Snatcher will then Snatch the Snatchable move from the faster Snatcher.

 

[X-Act]

EDIT: I'll test Attract and Heal Block, then, since Donut is testing two others. Gimme a moment. :)

If I had a Me First user, I'd test Me First + Revenge (wild Machoke have Revenge).

 

[Blizzard1]

Response to a few of these:

Baton Pass: Just wondering what's passed, aside from Leech Seed, Ingrain, Perish Count, Substitute, Mean Look (both on you and your opponent) and regular stat boosts. Can you Baton Pass partial trappers (either on your own side or your opponent's) like Wrap?
There is a question about whether Focus Energy can be baton passed. I'd like to think so, but I'm not sure if it's been verified.

Bounce: What hits in charge up stage, if anything?
The Veekun description says Thunder, Whirlwind, Gust, and Twister. I wonder about Twister, however, since it does double damage to things using Dive (supposedly). I also sort of wonder about Sky Uppercut, which hits pokemon using Fly.

Magnitude: What is the range of power / damage?
I thought this was known. From the damage formula thread:

Magnitude: BP = 10 if R is between 0 and 13 (Magnitude 4), BP = 30 if R is between 14 and 38 (Magnitude 5), BP = 50 if R is between 39 and 89 (Magnitude 6), BP = 70 if R is between 89 and 166 (Magnitude 7), BP = 90 if R is between 167 and 217 (Magnitude 8), BP = 110 if R is between 218 and 242 (Magnitude 9), and BP = 150 if R is between 243 and 255 (Magnitude 10), where R is a random whole number between 0 and 255 with uniform probability.

Metronome: What can't it pick, if anything?
Veekun database effect description:
Randomly selects and uses any move in the game. Counter, Covet, Destiny Bond, Detect, Endure, Focus Punch, Follow Me, Helping Hand, Metronome, Mimic, Mirror Coat, Protect, Sketch, Sleep Talk, Snatch, Struggle, Thief, and Trick are exempt.

Minimize: Stomp doubles move power if foe uses Minimize, but it can still miss. Extrasensory´s base power is unaffected by the use of Minimize.I suspect Extrasensory might have been different in the past, since its effect code was different before D/P. Stupid question: Stomp only doubles once, even if the target minimizes twice, correct?

Pursuit: If a Pokemon holding a Choice Band / Choice Glasses / Choice Scarf uses Pursuit against a Pokemon switching out (and ONLY against a Pokemon switching out), they can no longer reselect a different move next turn, even if this happens on the Choice item holder's first turn in battle. They can change moves in the Japanese version of DP, but in cross-language battles, the English version's settings override it.
To make sure I understand: This just means Pursuit works like everything else when you have a choice item?

Sleep Talk: What can't be chosen?
I don't know, though Focus Punch is supposed not to ever be chosen.

Snatch: Stuff that needs testing:

• Lunar Dance Veekun database says NO
• Metal Burst Veekun database says NO (it isn't a status effect anyway)
• Snatch Veekun database says NO

Of course, I don't know if the Veekun database is 100% accurate, but I think the snatch stuff is correct, and the effect descriptions are often correct/helpful.

 

[ΩDonut]

I can confirm that Focus Energy is Baton Passable. I had a Scyther use Focus Energy, Baton Pass it to a Drifloon, who then tried Focus Energy. It failed.

I've also been looking into Encore's behavior in 2v2. If a Pokemon gets its last move used Encored, it is also forced choose the same target it chose for the last move used. For example:

Drifloon uses Payback on enemy Machop last turn.
Next turn, Drifloon targets ally Wobbuffet with Payback.
Ally Wobbuffet uses Encore on Drifloon.
Drifloon uses Payback on enemy Machop instead.

The only exception to this is the computer AI, who seems able to choose its targets at will regardless of whether it is Encored or not.

 

[Blizzard1]

Two more notes:

1. If you sleep talk refresh, you cure your own sleep? Just wanted to verify since the Veekun database didn't mention sleep curing.
2. On the topic of weird 2v2 stuff, Acupressure (which is snatchable) can target either the user or its ally. Does snatch fail if the target uses Acupressure on its ally? I can test this if anyone wants to help me -- I'm almost certain I have something with Acupressure, if you have Snatch.

Oh, and a note about the Sleep Talk question in Peterko's message:
The move description of Sleep Talk in the Move Description Thread says

Cannot select Focus Punch, Counter, Mirror Coat, or Metronome.

Though apparently the Focus Punch thing is false, so I dunno about the rest either. >_>

 

[X-Act]

Response to a few of these:
Magnitude: What is the range of power / damage?
I thought this was known. From the damage formula thread:

It is stated in the damage formula thread that Magnitude's description has not been verified for DP. Basically, the one that's there is how Magnitude worked for GSC.

Minimize: Stomp doubles move power if foe uses Minimize, but it can still miss. Extrasensory´s base power is unaffected by the use of Minimize.I suspect Extrasensory might have been different in the past, since its effect code was different before D/P. Stupid question: Stomp only doubles once, even if the target minimizes twice, correct?

Correct. Also I tested Extrasensory against Double Team, and the damage was also unaffected.

EDIT: About Heal Block, since it only affects the foe (actually both foes), I cannot test Heal Block against my partner Pain Split Misdreavus in 2vs2. Sorry. (I don't have Wi-Fi.) If there is any chance I can find a Lv28 to Lv45 Misdreavus anywhere in the wild, please let me know.

 

[ΩDonut]

Confirming that Extrasensory behaves like Stomp in Advance in that it doubles damage against Pokemon that have used Minimize. However, this appears to have been removed in DP, as X-Act noticed.

 

[X-Act]

Peterko noticed Extrasensory deals normal damage versus Minimize. I noticed it dealt normal damage versus Double Team (just for the sheer hell of it, I decided to test it).

 

[Peterko]

wow, I honestly thought that noone would respond :)

@OmegaDonut: about encore, I think you can also choose the target, although I´m not sure (taunt worked the same way for both sides)

2. On the topic of weird 2v2 stuff, Acupressure (which is snatchable) can target either the user or its ally. Does snatch fail if the target uses Acupressure on its ally?

snatch works like this: you target yourself with snatch and the pkmn then waits for a move, doesn´t care if it is from foe or partner


Attract: 50/50 that you move or be imobilized by love, maybe more tests need to be done
test results total: 169/368 = 45.9%
-> 61/168 = 36.31% (X-Act)
-> 108/200 = 54% (Peterko)

Baton Pass:
-> focus energy can be BPed (OmegaDonut)
-> partial trappers like Wrap are not BPed (OmegaDonut)
-> attract effect is not BPed (OmegaDonut)

Bounce:
-> thunder: hits, base power and accuracy unaffected (Peterko)
-> whilwind: missed, needs further testing (Peterko)
-> gust: hits, base power doubles (Peterko)
-> twister: Y/N?
-> sky uppercut: hits, base power unaffected (Peterko)
-> anything else?

Conversion:

Conversion2:

Disable: OmegaDonut

Encore: OmegaDonut

Fly:
-> thunder: hits, base power and accuracy unaffected (Peterko)
-> whilwind: missed, needs further testing (Peterko)
-> gust: hits, base power doubles (Peterko)
-> twister: Y/N?
-> sky uppercut: hits, base power unaffected (Peterko)
-> anything else?

Gravity: more 50% and 55% accurate move tests needed

Heal Block: needs wifi/wireless battle to test it with pain split

Magic Coat:

Magnitude: base power+range

Me First: revenge/avalanche

Metronome:

Minimize: Stomp doubles move power if foe uses Minimize, but it can still miss. Extrasensory´s base power is unaffected by the use of Minimize. This is different from Advance where Extrasensory´s power was doubled as well.

Mist:
-> haze: Y/N?
-> heart swap: Y/N?
-> power swap: Y/N?
-> intimidate: Y/N?

Nature power: needs Pokémon Battle Revolution

Recycle:
-> Fling: yes
-> Nature Gift:
-> Bug Bite:
-> Pluck:
-> Knock Off:
-> Covet:
-> Thief:
-> Trick:
-> Switcheroo:

Sleep Talk:
-> focus punch is chosen (Tochukaso)
-> mirror coat: Y/N
-> counter: Y/N
-> metronome: Y/N
-> something else?


Snatch:
-> Snatch (OmegaDonut):
1. in single battle, nothing happens
2. in 2vs2, if two Pokemon use Snatch and a third uses a Snatchable move, the faster Snatcher will Snatch the Snatchable move, and the slower Snatcher will then Snatch the Snatchable move from the faster Snatcher; if no snatchable move was used, nothing happens
-> Metal Burst (Peterko): didn´t snatch
-> Lunar Dance (?):

Triple Kick:

Transform: choice band/specs

 

[ΩDonut]

I don´t have 2 snatch TMs at the moment and no pkmn which learns it as a level up move as well, could you try the 2vs2 battle under floaroma against those two pachirisu which often use quick attack?

Perhaps I should clarify. If a Pokemon Snatches a move, another Pokemon also using Snatch can Snatch the move that it stole from it. Example:

Toxicroak used Snatch!
Umbreon used Snatch!
Enemy Machop used Focus Energy!
Toxicroak Snatched Machop's Focus Energy!
Umbreon Snatched Toxicroak's Focus Energy!
Umbreon used Focus Energy!

If no Snatchable move is used, nothing happens. This explains why Snatch doesn't have a Snatchable tag of its own. And yes, I've already tested this in one of the 2v2 battles around Solaceon.

Mist and Intimidate can be tested in-game with clever use of Skill Swap. Simply use Mist, then Skill Swap Intimidate onto an NPC opponent's Pokemon.

I'd also like to run a few Gravity+Sing tests myself, but I'm not up to running a whole battery of them. If we had a lot of people contributing a number of hits out of, say, fifteen, that would be great.

 

[Peterko]

ok, updated again...I can do a bit of gravity+sing as well, I was too tired last time when trying thunder, maybe dynamicpunch would be better

40% increase = 70% dynamicpunch, 77% sing
50% increase = 75% dynamicpunch, 82% sing
60% increase = 80% dynamicpunch, 88% sing
70% increase = 85% dynamicpunch, 93% sing
80% increase = 90% dynamicpunch, 99% sing
90% increase = 95% dynamicpunch, 100% sing

these are pretty close, 15 hits are not enough, let´s say everyone who tries should do at least 30 (of course, 50 or 100 would be much better)

I´m also gonna test hitting flying/bouncing pkmn later

 

[X-Act]

Tested Attract:

There were 168 "___ is in love with ___" messages.

61 of them were immobilized by love.

61/168 = 36.31%

Seeing this percentage, I don't think being immobilized by love is a 50% chance. I think it's nearer to 33% but, of course, I'm not sure.

It should be noted that an infatuated Pokemon will always check whether it is immobilized by love in 2vs2, whether or not it is actually targeting the Pokemon it fell in love with. Even if you Attract your partner, your partner must first check that it is not immobilized by love before attacking the foes.

Also, being immobilized by love stops the multi-turn effect of Bide, in which case the Bide user can then be free to choose another move next turn.

 

[Peterko]

nice test X-Act

Gravity + Dynamicpunch test (jirachi and breloom)
34/40 hit = 85%

I got a 70% accuracy increase

EDIT: @ blizzard: 10/10 snatched the acupressure effect for itself, it only steals the effect, ignoring who was targeted
it was like this: Breloom snatched Skorupis´s move, Breloom´s accuracy sharply rose

 

[Blizzard1]

snatch works like this: you target yourself with snatch and the pkmn then waits for a move, doesn´t care if it is from foe or partner

What I meant was, if Pokemon A on Team 1 targets its partner with Acupressure, not itself, does Pokemon C on Team 2's Snatch still grab Acupressure, automatically causing the Snatch user (Pokemon C, team 2) to use Acupressure on itself, NOT on its partner (also on team 2)?

 

[ΩDonut]

~33%?

Suddenly I'm wondering if every battle simulator since GSC has gotten Attract wrong.

 

[Jibaku]

I'm not sure whether this goes in the reasearch thread or the simple Q/A thread, but here it is anyways:

Does the Grounding effect of Ingrain get Baton Passed?

Say I have a Smeargle who just Ingrained and then BPed to Zapdos. Is Zapdos now vulnerable to ground moves (Hi BP chain!)? What about the effectivenss? Will it be neutral, or super effective?

 

[ΩDonut]

I would imagine that the grounding effect stays as it's part of the Ingrain effect which is BP'd.

Multi-turn trapping moves such as Wrap are not passed by Baton Pass. Neither is Attract.

 

[Peterko]

one battle: male milotic and female heracross VS 2 female pachirisu, everyone loves milotic, milotic loves heracross

imobilized by love:
1/4, 2/4, 2/4, 1/4, 2/4, 3/4, 1/4, 4/4, 3/4, 2/4 (21/40)
3/4, 1/4, 3/4, 3/4, 3/4, 2/4, 2/4, 3/4, 2/4, 2/4 (24/40)
0/4, 3/4, 1/4, 1/4, 1/4, 2/4, 4/4, 2/4, 2/4, 3/4 (19/40)
2/4, 2/4, 3/4, 2/4, 2/4, 3/4, 3/4, 1/4, 2/4, 1/4 (21/40)
2/4, 4/4, 3/4, 2/4, 2/4, 2/4, 1/4, 3/4, 1/4, 3/4 (23/40)
108/200 = 54%

adding this to X-Act´s numbers we get

169/368 = 45.9%

so it is 50/50, after all (just curious what did you use? because it was obviously not very attractive :D )

Note to myself: this was the easiest test in a long time

 

[X-Act]

My lover was Sneasel. Lol.

At one point I got 11 turns of attacks in a row.

Let's put my numbers like this:

4/8, 5/8, 2/8, 3/8, 3/8, 4/8, 4/8, 3/8

Here I was at 28/64, or 43.75%.

Then, suddenly I started getting much less "immobilized by love" messages:

3/8, 2/8, 3/8, 2/8, 1/8, 3/8, 2/8, 3/8.

As you can see I never got more than 3/8 here. I only got 19/64 here, or 29.69%.

This continued until the end of the test:

2/8, 3/8, 4/8, 2/8, 3/8.

14/40 = 35%.

As you can see, I never got even near 50%. I really don't know what happened.

EDIT1:

My friend is telling me that the fact that an infatuated Pokemon will always check whether it is immobilized by love in 2vs2, whether or not it is actually targeting the Pokemon it fell in love with, has been there also in ADV.

EDIT2:
Gravity + Dynamicpunch test (jirachi and breloom)
34/40 hit = 85%

I got a 70% accuracy increase

I have been suspecting that Gravity is around a 70% increase in accuracy for quite some time now. It's definitely more than a 50% increase, from results I've seen so far.

 

[Peterko]

well maybe pkmn love is affected by something we don´t yet know like how many on the field love the same pkmn j/k :D

Bounce and Fly tests:

-> gust hits both a flying and a bouncing target, base power doubles in both cases (another variable move power)
-> thunder hits both a flying and a bouncing target, base power and accuracy unaffected
-> sky uppercut hits both a flying and a bouncing target, base power unaffected
-> whirlwind missed 5/5 against both a flying and bouncing target, but I think it can miss if user´s level is lower than target´s, so if anyone could test this with a higher lv. whirlwinder...

couldn´t test twister as it hits both foe´s pkmn so I can´t target my partner