DP Research Thread #3 ("Newer")

[ΩDonut]

@Obi: This was DP.

 

[Blizzard1]

Just noticed the move thread has the description for Sky Attack incomplete. It's a high critical-hit move.

I also noticed something interesting from Bulbapedia -- being put to sleep, frozen, partial-trapped (not sure what this is...is this wrap etc.?), and flinched prolongs but doesn't interrupt the duration of Razor Wind and similar moves.

Was this only for a previous generation or is this still valid?

 

[obi]

In ADV, at least, Sky Attack was improperly coded in Netbattle as a high Critical Hit move, but Peterko tested it extensively and found it has regular CH rate, but a chance to flinch. I don't believe this was ever retested in DP, however.

 

[Peterko]

SKY ATTACK

-tested this with lv.100 moltres against those route 1 (101?) lv. 2-3 pkmn
Results: the exact 8 PP tries (hits/CHs): 7/1, 6/2, 8/0, 8/0, 5/1, 7/0, 6/0, 7/1, 6/0, 6/0, 7/0, 7/1, 6/0, 8/1, 7/0, 7/1 ->

128 sky attacks
108 hits = 84,375% accuracy
8 CHs = 7,4% (8/108 ), but exactly 6,25% (8/128 ) out of all sky attacks, which is 1/16, the basic CH chance in the game

-> sky attack does not have a high CH chance (but it should have a 30% flinch chance)

November 3rd, 2006

Obi is fast :D and remembers my research

anyway, I can retest this in D/P (caught a noctowl yesterday, what a coincidence)...I must say that the 30% flinch idea comes from a pokédex, as it was not possible for those low level targets to survive that one

 

[Blizzard1]

The Veekun database and Bulbapedia both say it has a high crit chance with 30% flinch effect chance, and I suspect the Veekun entry might be because of something in the game...so I guess if someone wants to test it that might be helpful. >_>

 

[X-Act]

...if Metalloid Research's formula was correct for GSC, then Fissure should have an accuracy of about (50 - 5) / 256 + 0.30 = 47%. If Peterko's formula was the correct one for GSC, then the accuracy would be (50 - 5) / 100 + 0.30 = 75%.

As it turns out, 16\20 Fissures hit Chansey successfully, which is 80% accuracy.

Cool research. I know for sure that GSC's accuracy numbers were always in terms of 256 and not in terms of 100.

In GSC, to check if a move hits, a random 1-byte number (i.e. a number between 0 and 255) is generated at random, and if that number is less than the accuracy of the move, the move hits. The OHKO moves had 76 accuracy in GSC, meaning that they had 76/256 = 29.6875% chance of hitting if the user and the foe were of the same level. This 1-byte thing was also true for RBY, by the way (however, in RBY, the moves had 1 less accuracy than in GSC, and that's why 255 accuracy moves, having a 1/256 chance of missing in RBY, were replaced by 256 accuracy moves in GSC).

So although Peterko's formula conforms with GSC as well, it couldn't have been the one used in GSC because all accuracy numbers were between 0 and 256 in GSC.

A formula I'd suggest for GSC is

Accuracy for OHKO moves = 76 + floor((User Level - Foe Level) * 18) / 7)

This is just to translate 100-accuracy for ADV and DP to 256-accuracy for GSC.

Now that I mention RBY, remember that in RBY it wasn't the levels that were taken into account for OHKO moves to hit, but the speed stats. It might be worthwhile to check if OHKO moves were more accurate the faster the user is than its foe... although my RBY-playing friend says that's probably not the case.

EDIT: Yes, if an OHKO move is used against a faster foe in RBY, or against a higher-leveled foe in GSC, ADV, and DP, the move always misses.

 

[obi]

I was reading some old research on Critical Hits, and, although there is a lot of data on the CH rate in the previous research thread, I didn't see anything on how they work, so I checked the damage formula thread.

1) Critical Hits: If the Stat Modifier for Attack or Special Attack is less than zero, SM is made equal to 1 if the attack hits for a Critical Hit. Also, if the Stat Modifier for Defense or Special Defense is greater than zero, SM is made equal to 1 if the attack hits for a Critical Hit.

I know this is how it worked in ADV, but I also know that how this works changed RBY-->GSC and GSC-->ADV. Was this confirmed in DP?

 

[X-Act]

Yes, it is confirmed in DP. Also, Reflect and Light Screen's effects are momentarily gone during a CH. This is confirmed in DP as well. These are the only effects (negative stat changes for Atk/SpAtk, positive stat changes for Def/SpDef, Reflect and Light Screen) whose effects are momentarily gone during a CH.

 

[obi]

Oh, is that how it worked in ADV, too? I know on Netbattle Reflect and Light Screen remain during a CH, so is that correct or another inaccuracy?

How does Slaking's loafing turns work if it is brought in after a Pokemon dies to indirect damage?

 

[Peterko]

Lv. 35 noctowl @ wide lens using sky attack against partner Lv.35 wobbuffet

Sky Attack ingame description: "A second-turn attack move with a high critical-hit ratio. It may also make the target flinch."
Sky Attack 1st turn message: "Noctowl became cloaked in a harsh light!"

2/8 flinches, 0/8 CHs
2/8 flinches, 0/8 CHs
1/8 flinches, 2/8 CHs
2/8 flinches, 1/8 CHs
1/8 flinches, 0/8 CHs
1/6 flinches, 0/6 CHs, 2 missed
3/8 flinches, 0/8 CHs
2/6 flinches, 0/6 CHs

pachirisu struggle recoil fainted

TOTAL:
14/60 flinches = 23.33%
3/60 CHs = 5%

-> flinch rate seems to be 25% (we can tell that for sure after king´s rock has been tested)
-> although the description says so, sky attack doesn´t seem to have a high critical-hit ratio

 

[CasMat]

Alright here is a simple question. On a Lucario I used to use it's focus sash activated when it wasn't at full health...
However it never took damage directly and it switched out. Could these conditions have resetted the trigger or something?

This really freaked me out.

YES I'm sure it is a Focus sash and not a band.

It switched in and took damage from SR and then it switched out. I used a rapid spin and it came back later when My rapid spinner fainted. Next it took a critical hit from ape. Then I was like.
"O_o I <--(My face at the time.) My Lucario's defenses aren't that good...
"Lucario held on due to it's Focus Sash."
That was the whole scenerio.

Either this guy is seeing things or....there is something really weird with focus sash. Surprised thid hasn't been seen until now, if it's true....

 

[X-Act]

Oh, is that how it worked in ADV, too? I know on Netbattle Reflect and Light Screen remain during a CH, so is that correct or another inaccuracy?

Reflect and Light Screen's effects are momentarily switched off during a CH in ADV as well.

 

[Peterko]

what was the flinch theory?

a) iron head + king´s rock = 30%, king´s rock not applied
b) iron head + king´s rock = 40%, king´s rock (exact % not known) added
c) something different

started testing, forgot that my aero has pressure so I didn ´t get that many results

6/24
10/24
12/24
4/11
total: 32/83 = 38.55%

I think fire fang would be a better choice, as 10% and 20% are easier to see than 30% and 40%...will post results later

it would be really nice if others could test flinches so we get this faster, I recommend an aerodactyl (fast, learns iron head, fangs rock and wing attack as a no flinch move with many PPs) for some nice numbers...let it attack a higher level partner which is slower and can take at least 10 of those hits so you don´t have to heal often

 

[X-Act]

what was the flinch theory?

a) iron head + king´s rock = 30%, king´s rock not applied
b) iron head + king´s rock = 40%, king´s rock (exact % not known) added
c) something different

started testing, forgot that my aero has pressure so I didn ´t get that many results

6/24
10/24
12/24
4/11
total: 32/83 = 38.55%

I think fire fang would be a better choice, as 10% and 20% are easier to see than 30% and 40%...will post results later

it would be really nice if others could test flinches so we get this faster, I recommend an aerodactyl (fast, learns iron head, fangs rock and wing attack as a no flinch move with many PPs) for some nice numbers...let it attack a higher level partner which is slower and can take at least 10 of those hits so you don´t have to heal often

My flinch theory was: first the game checks the move flinch rate (30%), then the item flinch rate (???%). I believe that this was once proven wrong by TRE though, who tested with Air Slash Skarmory + King's Rock and got around 30% flinch, but seeing your results gives me another glimmer of hope that I was right after all.

My theory would work if King's Rock has about 12% flinch rate. In GSC, King's Rock's flinch rate was 30/256 = 11.72%, so this seems to be quite close.

30/100 + (70/100 * 12/100) = 0.384 = 38.4% and you got 38.55%.

 

[Blizzard1]

Then Air Slash Togekiss should get 67.2%? Or am I interpreting your math incorrectly? I would think someone had to have tried King's Rock Serene Grace Air Slash at one point.

 

[Peterko]

king´s rock + ice/fire fang
3/24
5/21
5/30

total: 13/75 = 17.33% (or 15/97 = 15.46% if I add another 2/22 where I accidentally ice fanged the foe)


serene grace jirachi king´s rock zen headbutt vs latios (I don´t have a togekiss, if anyone wonders how zen headbutt hit, I defogged latios once before I started)

13/24
13/24
9/24
11/24
6/10 before foe struggle recoiled itself to KO

total: 52/106 = 49.0566% (was 47/100)

-> (20% + 10-12%) * 2 = 60-64%
-> (20% * 2) + 10-12% = 50-52%
-> (20% * 2) + (0.1 * 0.6) = 46%
-> (20% * 2) + (0.1171875 * 0.6) = 47.03125%
-> 20% * 2 = 40%

so it seems to work like X-Act said (I know you love the results), but we still need the exact king´s rock %

I repeat myself, it would be nice if I wasn´t the only one to test this

 

[TheMantyke]

IIRC, Kingsrock only increases the flinch rate for moves without anyother affect, I don't think it would be boosted on togekisses airslash...

 

[obi]

King's Rock flinch + moves with flinch really wouldn't be as broken as some people think. Assuming King's Rock has a 12.5% flinch rate (why not? might as well overestimate it for this demonstration to show how not broken it would be), using a move with 30% flinch gives you .7 * .875 = 61.25% chance not to flinch, or 38.75% chance to flinch, meaning you actually gained 8.75% flinch rate. If you used it on a Serene Grace Pokemon to have a 60% flinch rate move, you'd have an actual chance of 65% chance to flinch, meaning King's Rock adds a mere 5% to that. Is that really better than Leftovers or even Scope Lens?

 

[Team Rocket Elite]

Assist's behavior in PBR needs to be tested. In Advance and DP, Assist can call upon the moves of fainted teammates. In Colosseum\XD, however, Assist cannot. Since Colosseum and PBR are both Genius Sonority products, it is worth a test.

I had a Glameow, a Smeargle and a fainted Magikarp. Glameow uses Assist and used the fainted Magikarp's Tackle. It pulls up the moves of fainted allies.

 

[Peterko]

I don´t think the game would run a 30/100 RNG and then a 32/256 one...I mean we know the move info from the game code is 30...I give my money on a 10% king´s rock rate (there are 10%, 20% and 30% flinch rate moves)

anyway, I´m not an expert on RNGs...it would be cool if someone like loadingNOW could help us by looking at the game code (haven ´t heard of him lately)

 

[X-Act]

king´s rock + ice/fire fang
3/24
5/21
5/30

total: 13/75 = 17.33% (or 15/97 = 15.46% if I add another 2/22 where I accidentally ice fanged the foe)


serene grace jirachi king´s rock zen headbutt vs latios (I don´t have a togekiss, if anyone wonders how zen headbutt hit, I defogged latios once before I started)

13/24
13/24
9/24
11/24
6/10 before foe struggle recoiled itself to KO

total: 52/106 = 49.0566% (was 47/100)

-> (20% + 10-12%) * 2 = 60-64%
-> (20% * 2) + 10-12% = 50-52%
-> (20% * 2) + (0.1 * 0.6) = 46%
-> (20% * 2) + (0.1171875 * 0.6) = 47.03125%
-> 20% * 2 = 40%

so it seems to work like X-Act said (I know you love the results), but we still need the exact king´s rock %

I repeat myself, it would be nice if I wasn´t the only one to test this

Awesome test. Lemme try to give an approximation to King's Rock percentage.

From Iron Head (30% flinch) + King's Rock, you got 32/83. King's Rock flinch rate approximation: 12.22%.
From Fire Fang (10% flinch) + King's Rock, you got 13/75. King's Rock flinch rate approximation: 8.15%.
From Serene Grace Zen Headbutt (40% flinch) + King's Rock, you got 52/106. King's Rock flinch rate approximation: 15.09%.

Average rate approximation is around 11.82%.

Was there any King's Rock testing alone?

 

[X-Act]

Then Air Slash Togekiss should get 67.2%? Or am I interpreting your math incorrectly? I would think someone had to have tried King's Rock Serene Grace Air Slash at one point.

Air Slash + King's Rock Togekiss was tried by TRE once here.

[ABILITY]
Hustle
[SHORT DESC]
Grants 50% more damage with physical moves at the cost of 20% accuracy.
[LONG DESC]
Pokemon with this ability do 50% more damage with physical attacks, but all attacks (or just physical?) have 20% less accuracy (is this a straight drop, so a 50% move would have 30% accuracy, or a multiplicative drop, so it really drops it to 80% of the original accuracy, so a 50% accurate move would have 40% accuracy?).

(1) It seems certain that only physical moves are boosted; was it confirmed that only physical moves receive the accuracy drop?

(2) Does anyone know (or care >_>) about the multiplicative drop vs. straight drop thing, since the ability description has this question in it?

(1) Yes, it is confirmed that only physical moves get the accuracy drop. Peterko told me to specify explicitly this fact even in the damage formula thread. Speaking of which, you can check what is actually boosted by 1.5 there. (EDIT: It actually boosts the Attack stat itself.)

(2) It is a multiplicative drop.

My suspicions were correct. If you BP a Sub to a Pokemon, and the Sub's remaining HP is greater than that of that Pokemon's max HP, OHKO moves will not destroy the Sub. It will only do as much damage as the Pokemon's max HP.

What happens if an OHKO move is used against a Pokemon having 1 remaining HP and has a Substitute up? Does the OHKO move deal 1 damage, or damage equal to the max HP of the foe, to the Substitute?

 

[Peterko]

HUSTLE:
-> the in-game description explicitly mentions "Boosts the Attack stat, but lowers accuracy"

hustle togepi
flamethrower hit 15/15
facade hit 15/20


OHKO move and SUBSTITUTE
-> the OHKO move breaks the substitute as long as max HP >= substitute HP

test: 1/81 HP minun, 20 HP substitute, fissure broke sub (it´s kinda funny that it still uses the "It´s a one-hit KO!" message after it does that)

 

[Team Rocket Elite]

Bibarel uses Quick Attack on Umbreon. Bibarel has a King's Rock

O = Flinch
X = No flinch

XXOXXXXXXX
OXXXXXXOXX
XXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXX
XOOXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXOXXX
XXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXX

6/100

That's a fair bit less than I expected. Anybody else want to try?

 

[Peterko]

yep, I will try tomorrow, time to sleep now