DP Tier Discussion - BL and UU (mark 2)

[Jaxi]

Sometimes I feel like I should post something and this is one of those times...

I think we should just allow all NFEs in UU (other than Chansey, Snover and Hippopotas). Then if something feels too strong, move it to BL.

Let's look at this Monferno you guys are using as an example. It's offensive stats are bad and defensive stats pathetic. Sure it has access to Nasty plot but so does Ninetales and I'd say the only reason to use Monferno is Nasty plot (because its stats are so bad and you shouldn't bother with a mixed set as there's really no point).

So in conclusion, Monferno would never be used. The same can be said about almost every other NFE too and so UU would not become anything like OU.

 

[Ancien Régime]

(a lot of interesting stuff but not really addressing my main point)

But why is having NFE pokemon with similar stat spreads to OU pokemon a bad thing in and of itself?

 

[umbarsc]

It doesn't make it flawed at all. I was just pointing out that some Pokemon are nearly identical to Pokemon in a higher tier, but that doesn't mean they should be banned from the tier they're in. I didn't feel like wasting time finding the "best" examples because I figured any intelligent person could understand my point regardless.

It's irrelevant what people associate with what. If there were a fully evolved Pokemon that had the same stats as Machoke, the same movepool and the same ability why should only one of them be banned from UU simply because people will associate it with an OU Pokemon?

No, the fact that you used BL Pokemon makes them inherently flawed. Even if it is just likea BL Pokemon, BL Pokemon are also not standard. BL is not an actual metagame, so why would we ban Pokemon from that environment?

I did see your point, I was just pointing out that your examples were flawed.

The answer to your last question would be because, while UU is a competitive tier, people also have non-competitive motives for playing UU.

 

[Ancien Régime]

The answer to your last question would be because, while UU is a competitive tier, people also have non-competitive motives for playing UU.

And since UU is a competitive tier, said non-competitive motives are wholly irrelevant.

 

[umbarsc]

But why is having NFE pokemon with similar stat spreads to OU pokemon a bad thing in and of itself?

Because UU exists to be different than OU, or why wouldn't you just play OU? The way the tiers are set up aren't arbitrary, they have reason. What's the point of disallowing Pokemon that are used frequently in OU? To create a metagame of Pokemon not used frequently in standard. What's the point of creating a metagame of Pokemon not used frequently in standard? To create a tier where you do not see standard Pokemon, a tier that, by its very nature, differentiates itself from OU. Allowing NFEs remarkably similar their fully-evolved, OU counterpart is a direct contradiction to that.

And since UU is a competitive tier, said non-competitive motives are wholly irrelevant.

How so? You're seeing things in terms of black and white. You can have a competitive tier that also pleases the people actually playing said tier.

 

[Ancien Régime]

Because UU exists to be different than OU, or why wouldn't you just play OU?

Wrong. UU exists to allow pokemon who do not compete well in OU to thrive. It has nothing to do with being qualitatively different from OU. Like others have said, Monferno and Gabite do not compete well in OU, so the only thing to determine is whether they would be too powerful for UU.

What's the point of disallowing Pokemon that are used frequently in OU? To create a metagame of Pokemon not used frequently in standard.

Wrong. The point of UU is to make a metagame where less used and less powerful pokemon are viable.

a tier that, by its very nature, differentiates itself from OU. Allowing NFEs remarkably similar their fully-evolved, OU counterpart is a direct contradiction to that.

The only way that UU differentiates itself from OU is the fact that OU (and BL) serve as a banlist for UU. That's it. It has nothing to do with whatever your defintiion of "being different from OU" is. UU was not created to be somehow fundamentally different from OU, it is just a metagame where OU is banned, the same way that OU is a metagame where Ubers are banned, etc.

If there was an overriding philosophical definition to UU that states "that it is supposed to be qualitatively different from OU", then your argument is valid. But none exists, so it is not.

You can have a competitive tier that also pleases the people actually playing said tier.

oh btw, pleasing the people playing said tier has in the past entailed the banning of Skarmory and Blissey.

The tiering system does NOT exist to please people, it exists to create the most balanced metagame possible. So unless you can prove that NFEs inherently unbalance the metagame, there is no argument against allowing them in.

 

[lancelot]

I've lurked around for a bit and I'm pretty tired of this. I feel that umbarsc has absolutely skewed the definition of the tiers.

UU was created for a metagame where the OU did not take up a majority of the teams, therefore creating a game where the pool has been once again extended back to the "other" pokemon. All it is, is a game that was created for the sole reason of banning the OU pokemon. Therefore anything non-OU and above are allowed. Thus the BL tier was created. To balance out this tier. By eliminating pokemon that can rival the powers of the OU pokemon, but are not necessarily OU, we have a set of pokemon that are more similar in power playing against each other. Thus the reason why we discuss to ban.

By believing that it was a tiwer made for the sole reason to be "different" is a misconception. Sure, it IS different because we eliminate the "best" of the pokemon, and thus must create various ways to fill that gap, but that only comes AFTER we removed the OU pokemon. By following your reasoning, we should ban pokemon that play similar roles to the pokemon of OU, and that is completely wrong. We get an UU tier once all the OU's and pokemon that unbalance the metagame are gone. From there we work to weed out those unbalances and thus creating a psuedo-balanced metagame of pokemon.

So on to the main discussion of NFE, I find that banning for the sole reason of OU-lite is a little ridiculous. Sure, many NFE will have similar sets as their evolved counterparts, but the main thing that this comes down to are their stats. Many lack a few points to even come close to their dominating evolutions. The most obvious pokemon that break the previous statement are probably Kadabra and Haunter, but we have the power to ban if it comes down to it.

I would like to see NFE to be played in the UU metagame. Once we find them to be too difficult to handle or overcentralizing is when we can ban them, but until then, anything non-OU/BL should be allowed.

 

[umbarsc]

Wrong. UU exists to allow pokemon who do not compete well in OU to thrive. It has nothing to do with being qualitatively different from OU. Like others have said, Monferno and Gabite do not compete well in OU, so the only thing to determine is whether they would be too powerful for UU.

How can I be wrong if you haven't provided any evidence to back up your statement?

Let's take a fundamental look at how the tiers function.

- Ubers: The banlist from standard
- OU: Standard
- BL: The banlist from UU
- UU: Pokemon that are not seen frequently in OU.
- NU: Pokemon that are not see frequently in UU.

There is a reason that the tiers are set up this way. If we were aiming to create a tier where Pokemon that do not compete well in OU thrive, we would base them solely on power. Obi himself said that usage was not being used as a direct means of measuring power.

Therefore, the only conclusion that can be drawn is that we have ulterior reasons for using usage in the tier system. I believe that that is so we can create a system where Pokemon not seen commonly in standard can thrive, not Pokemon incapable of competing in standard thrive.

Then why is that method of tiering used? Clearly, objectivity and competitiveness are not the only motives behind the tier system.

Wrong. The point of UU is to make a metagame where less used and less powerful pokemon are viable.

And what is the point of creating a tier where less used and less powerful Pokemon are viable?

The only way that UU differentiates itself from OU is the fact that OU (and BL) serve as a banlist for UU. That's it. It has nothing to do with whatever your defintiion of "being different from OU" is. UU was not created to be somehow fundamentally different from OU, it is just a metagame where OU is banned, the same way that OU is a metagame where Ubers are banned, etc.

If there was an overriding philosophical definition to UU that states "that it is supposed to be qualitatively different from OU", then your argument is valid. But none exists, so it is not.

May you please provide evidence to back up these statements? I've already shown and explained why I feel the way I do, but the same can't be said for you.

oh btw, pleasing the people playing said tier has in the past entailed the banning of Skarmory and Blissey.

The tiering system does NOT exist to please people, it exists to create the most balanced metagame possible. So unless you can prove that NFEs inherently unbalance the metagame, there is no argument against allowing them in.

Was the attempt to ban SkarmBliss rational? Besides, that is the standard metagame. The standard metagame is entirely competitive. If the only purpose of UU was to create a second balanced metagame, we wouldn't use usage at all in tiering, and we would find a more accurate way to measure power. But that's obviously not the case.

 

[lancelot]

Do you just WANT to argue? Or does logic fail to retain its uses in you? Because the way I see it, you are plainly rejecting anything that is not your own and telling them to prove what is directly in front of you.

Ubers: Pokemon obviously too powerful to be used in conjunction with the rest.
OU: Standard. Or the most used, due to their abilities being the most potent/useful at this stage.
BL: Pokemon that are too powerful to play with the pokemon in UU.
UU: Pokemon NOT OU/BL/Ubers.

That's it. That is all there is to the tiers. Nothing else. It was set up for the pure purpose of banning the standards. Not "create a tier that is fundamentally different from the other levels of play." In the end, the objective is the same, but the means become different. We just narrow the pool down each tier so that people are "forced" to use the next available pokemon.

 

[jrrrrrrr]

Let's take a fundamental look at how the tiers function.

- Ubers: The banlist from standard
- OU: Standard
- BL: The banlist from UU
- UU: Pokemon that are not seen frequently in OU.
- NU: Pokemon that are not see frequently in UU.

There is a reason that the tiers are set up this way. If we were aiming to create a tier where Pokemon that do not compete well in OU thrive, we would base them solely on power. Obi himself said that usage was not being used as a direct means of measuring power.

Therefore, the only conclusion that can be drawn is that we have ulterior reasons for using usage in the tier system. I believe that that is so we can create a system where Pokemon not seen commonly in standard can thrive, not Pokemon incapable of competing in standard thrive.

You obviously have no comprehension of how the tier system works if you really believe that any other conclusions can be reached from this. Instead of looking for ulterior motives, look at what is actually in front of you. It is getting extremely frustrating trying to explain to you what the tier system is, only to have you reply with more incorrect assumptions that are irrelevant to literally everything in this thread.

You say it yourself. UU is for the pokemon that are not seen frequently in OU. How often do you see Gabite in OU? I have never seen one. Usage statistics show clearly that Gabite is "not seen frequently in OU", which would make it UU by your own definition.

I believe that that is so we can create a system where Pokemon not seen commonly in standard can thrive, not Pokemon incapable of competing in standard thrive.

Ok, now that you finally understand that, try to prove that Gabite or any other NFE is seen frequently in standard and you will have me convinced that NFEs do not belong in UU. Gabite is a "Pokemon not seen commonly in standard", which makes it a perfect candidate for UU by YOUR OWN DEFINITION. So basically, you are now not only arguing against the community's definition of the UU tier, but you are arguing against your own.


Also, what is this "NFEs feel too much like standard" argument? I am reiterating Obi's challenge to give me an example of any NFE pokemon that isn't drastically different than its evolved form. Monferno is slower and weaker than Infernape. Machoke is MUCH slower than Machamp and is also weaker statistically. Pupitar has different typing, Shed Skin and the strongest DD + EQ in the game. Most of these arguments ignore the fact that I could count the number of NFEs that would even have any impact on UU on my hands. Chansey, Kadabra, Haunter, Rhydon, Dusknoir, Gabite, Snover, Hippopotas, and MAYBE Monferno are the only NFEs that I feel even have a chance of ever being broken in UU. 9 "broken" NFEs out of 223 total NFEs is not a big deal. It also ignores the fact that there is already a specific NFE banned in UU because of power reasons and not because of NFE status: Porygon2.

NFEs are different pokemon that are not seen in standard. By the definition of UU, they should be allowed. Umbarsc, you are arguing against the definition of the UU tier. If you agree that your own definition that you just gave in the post of yours I quoted is correct (which it is), you have literally no logical reason to believe that NFEs should be banned. I am completely baffled as to how you could post the correct definition of the tiers and then come to a conclusion that is not only irrelevant to your own definition but completely wrong.

 

[umbarsc]

Everything in this discussion has been opinion, which there's no point debating.

This whole thing is going around in circles, and this whole discussion is pointless. I'm just going to leave this now.


To bring something else up, can someone justify Ambipom being BL? Sure it's powerful with a Choice Band, but I'd argue that Scyther and the Fighting-types are more powerful, and harder to counter. Of course, as those are considered for BL I don't know how much weight that holds.

Steelix is pretty much a 100% stop to it barring Focus Punch, which requires great prediction.

Shuckle with a healthy EV investment can even take Focus Punches fairly well, and can stall it out.

Defensive Drifblim only has to fear Payback and the rare ThunderPunch/Ice Punch.

100 Atk is decent, but not overpowering in my eyes. Without a Choice Band, Return will not be doing respectable damage to neutral, defensive targets like Sandslash and Claydol.

I'd like to hear what others think about this, and if this has been brought up before.

 

[Kagster123]

Ambipom used to be UU right?

I'm not sure why it was BL, but it helps him that he has a good movepool. He can BP Nasty Plot, Agility, and Substitutes.

Not to mention the Fake Out + U-turn combo is very annoying, and he gets STAB on Fake Out.

 

[jrrrrrrr]

Everything in this discussion has been opinion, which there's no point debating.

This whole thing is going around in circles, and this whole discussion is pointless. I'm just going to leave this now.

This is true except the part where you incorrectly labeled the tiers and then posted opinions based off of those falsehoods. An opinion is worthless without the actual facts to base it off of. There wouldn't be any point to opinions if we couldn't debate them since we can't debate facts. Don't just trivialize the entire argument by dismissing it as opinion, because the argument was about your misunderstanding the facts and something actually got done because of it. You posted things that were incorrect and we corrected you. One side was presenting facts and you weren't...the whole point of a community is to help each other out and that's what happened. Now that you know what's what, we can actually get moving again.


With that taken care of, I have another question to the opponents of NFEs in UU, can we at least agree that the NFE forms of UU pokemon should be allowed in UU? I don't see the logic of banning Vulpix when Ninetales is allowed.

 

[umbarsc]

So do Purugly and Persian. And they get Hypnosis to be even more annoying.

Even though I am done arguing, do not pretend I was completely wrong and you were correcting me. We never reached a consensus, so we don't know who's right, as we were just beating the dead horse. I still think that my argument was logical and you were just misinterpreting it, and you probably feel the same for me. Do not pretend it was one-sided.

And the NFE of UU are supposed to be allowed. It was just something they overlooked when banning NFEs on the ladder. At least, that's what I thought.

 

[jrrrrrrr]

Even though I am done arguing, do not pretend I was completely wrong and you were correcting me. We never reached a consensus, so we don't know who's right, as we were just beating the dead horse. I still think that my argument was logical and you were just misinterpreting it, and you probably feel the same for me. Do not pretend it was one-sided.

It was one-sided because one side was presenting facts and you were presenting falsehoods, which thankfully you adjusted later on. We do know who was right, and everybody did reach a consensus: you were wrong. It doesn't matter if your argument was logical- which it wasnt- because it was still completely wrong and inconsistent with the actual definition of the tiers. That is what matters. Nobody was misinterpreting you, you didn't understand the point of the tier system and you were using that incorrect assessment as a base for your opinions. That is why you were corrected. Even people that just lurk these forums came in to comment that every "point" you made was both irrelevant and incorrect. Thankfully you realized your mistake when you did and prevented another entire page of arguing against your baseless, meaningless claims. It's over now so youre right- no more beating a dead horse.

To bring something else up, can someone justify Ambipom being BL? Sure it's powerful with a Choice Band, but I'd argue that Scyther and the Fighting-types are more powerful, and harder to counter. Of course, as those are considered for BL I don't know how much weight that holds.

100 Atk is decent, but not overpowering in my eyes. Without a Choice Band, Return will not be doing respectable damage to neutral, defensive targets like Sandslash and Claydol.

I'd like to hear what others think about this, and if this has been brought up before.

Ambipom was OU for a while, IIRC. That probably had a lot to do with its BL placement. Technician, Fake Out, its monstrous movepool and the speed to back it up are really good. It was pretty much made for using Life Orb, and it does it really well.

To be honest, Ambipom would become the best Baton Passer in UU if it were allowed. 115 speed (faster than Scyther), Nasty Plot, Agility and Taunt mean that it would outclass a lot of UU pokemon. Sometimes power isn't based purely on what the pokemon itself can do, but on how it can help other pokemon do things. i.e. a lvl 1 Kyogre would still be pretty broken in UU thanks to auto-rain.

 

[umbarsc]

Do you think its Baton Passing abilities are broken? I could see, say, a +2 Manectric being very dangerous, or maybe SD Armaldo with an Agility passed to it, but it really depends on how easily Ambipom can BP away. Not to mention that its recipient can usually be revenge-killed by the right Pokemon.

I agree that Ambipom's unpredictability would probably make it very hard to face in UU, but until it's actually used in battle will we know for sure.

 

[evolutia]

With that taken care of, I have another question to the opponents of NFEs in UU, can we at least agree that the NFE forms of UU pokemon should be allowed in UU? I don't see the logic of banning Vulpix when Ninetales is allowed.

Well I don't think it would be a problem to also extend that to NFE's of those currently who are currently in BL. Unless someone has a BL-lite argument....

 

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

Well I don't think it would be a problem to also extend that to NFE's of those currently who are currently in BL. Unless someone has a BL-lite argument....

Kadabra, Aipom, Growlithe, Marill, Combusken, Charmeleon, Golbat, Phanpy, Prinplup, Exeggcute, Croconaw, Buizel, Vibrava, Kirlia, Makuhita, Murkrow, Houndour, Seadra, Lickitung, Lombre, Cubone, Meditite, Misdreavus, Nincada, Porygon, Cranidos, Rhydon, Grovyle, Slowpoke, Staravia, Tangela, Grotle, Quilava, Teddiursa, Ivysaur, Koffing.

That's the list of new additions I get under such an extension. Quite a varied mix of new Pokemon, and the only one I'd have reservations with is Rhydon. I'm sure there will be many who cite Kadabra and Misdreavus as controversial, but I'm still not convinced in that regard.

Most of the rest probably wouldn't see any use at all. Combusken, Charmeleon, Murkrow, Seadra, Meditite, Cranidos and Tangela are the only ones I can see a possible use for in UU, but perhaps I'm missing something. Would be interesting nonetheless.

 

[Trust]

Kadabra, Rhydon and Misdreavus could be a bit dangerous, but I think that we could give a try to Misdreavous and Rhydon at least, while Kadabra is too strong IMO.

 

[tennisace]

And the NFE of UU are supposed to be allowed. It was just something they overlooked when banning NFEs on the ladder. At least, that's what I thought.

When DougJustDoug asked me to manually rewrite the UU Banlist because Shiv's script missed them, I left those out. So they should be unbanned already.

 

[umbarsc]

I think testing Kadabra is worth a shot. Though Kadabra has slightly better stats than Mr. Mime (that extra speed is notable), Mr. Mime has a superior movepool (with moves like Hypnosis, Baton Pass, and Thunderbolt), and a superior ability. Glaceon's Ice Beams outpower Kadabra's Psychics, and Rotom is nearly as powerful but also gets dual STAB. The scariest thing about Kadabra, in my eyes, would be Trick, but it's not as if we lack those in UU.

It was one-sided because one side was presenting facts and you were presenting falsehoods, which thankfully you adjusted later on. We do know who was right, and everybody did reach a consensus: you were wrong. It doesn't matter if your argument was logical- which it wasnt- because it was still completely wrong and inconsistent with the actual definition of the tiers. That is what matters. Nobody was misinterpreting you, you didn't understand the point of the tier system and you were using that incorrect assessment as a base for your opinions. That is why you were corrected. Even people that just lurk these forums came in to comment that every "point" you made was both irrelevant and incorrect. Thankfully you realized your mistake when you did and prevented another entire page of arguing against your baseless, meaningless claims. It's over now so youre right- no more beating a dead horse.

Majority vote doesn't really count. No one reached a consensus at all and the only reason I stopped arguing was because I realized that if I couldn't convince you in two pages, I never would. I didn't just suddenly realize how wrong I was.

My viewpoint is completely logical and sound, if no one else realized that I blame myself for not stringing together a good enough argument. So you're right, it is my fault.

And don't claim I don't understand how the tier system works. I perfectly understand it, I just don't agree with what you are saying. Basically, everything came down to opinion. If you honestly think you were just presenting the facts, you really should re-read what you wrote.

I am well aware that I wasn't presenting facts. I was presenting logic.

 

[jrrrrrrr]

I think testing Kadabra is worth a shot. Though Kadabra has slightly better stats than Mr. Mime (that extra speed is notable), Mr. Mime has a superior movepool (with moves like Hypnosis, Baton Pass, and Thunderbolt), and a superior ability. Glaceon's Ice Beams outpower Kadabra's Psychics, and Rotom is nearly as powerful but also gets dual STAB. The scariest thing about Kadabra, in my eyes, would be Trick, but it's not as if we lack those in UU.

I'm not really sure where to go with Kadabra, since it does have that massive SpAtk and Speed stats combined with an excellent special movepool. Combine that with the high amount of Psychic-weak pokemon in UU and you have quite the monster. Priority moves can do well to revenge kill it, but finding an actual switch-in for Kadabra will be pretty difficult. It gets Shadow Ball for Hypno/Grumpig, Focus Blast for Bastiodon, Grass Knot/Energy Ball, STAB Psychic, it can always use HP Ice, it gets Thunder Wave, Trick, Snatch, Torment...its movepool is really really large. I'm not sure that it is really that beatable in UU except by maybe Sableye.

My viewpoint is completely logical and sound, if no one else realized that I blame myself for not stringing together a good enough argument. So you're right, it is my fault.

And don't claim I don't understand how the tier system works. I perfectly understand it, I just don't agree with what you are saying. Basically, everything came down to opinion. If you honestly think you were just presenting the facts, you really should re-read what you wrote.

I am well aware that I wasn't presenting facts. I was presenting logic.

Your viewpoint wasn't logical or sound. That's why everybody was arguing against it. Your claim of some inherent purpose of the UU tier as the reason why NFEs aren't allowed is simply false and there is no arguing against that. You're right, you weren't presenting facts, you were presenting a logical sequence based off of an incorrect assumption of the point of UU. Even though your logical steps made sense, the original foundation from where that logic started was wrong. THAT is what we're saying. Nobody is being insulting, we are trying to encourage good debate on our opinions- but that means the facts need to be in line first. Making incorrect assumptions about something generally means that you don't understand something fully. I'm really not trying to be a jerk here but you are still insisting that you're right and it bothers me because someone might take you seriously. Nothing was opinion in our argument except for your understanding of what the tiers should be, don't trivialize your misunderstanding of the UU tier by saying that this thread has lots of opinions in it. I realize that this thread is completely opinion based- which is exactly why we need to keep incorrect assumptions about the tiers like the one you made out of it. False facts skew opinions. I suggest you re-read this:

The problem isn't that nobody understands what it means, it's that what umbarsc is arguing, "these Pokemon make UU feel like standard," means absolutely nothing. All arguments based on simple opinion have no bearing in the current tiering structure, and to say otherwise demonstrates either that you don't know what the current tiering structure is, or that you don't think that the current tiering structure is the right way to go, and that you think there's something fundamentally wrong with it. Of course, neither of these matter. The current tier structure is in place because it works, and it creates a playing environment where it is easy to figure out where the trends are going, as well as what the more powerful and influential Pokemon are.

 

[gengod]

Focus Blast for Bastiodon:

Kadabra doesn't actually learn Focus Blast.

I think testing Kadabra is worth a shot. Though Kadabra has slightly better stats than Mr. Mime (that extra speed is notable), Mr. Mime has a superior movepool (with moves like Hypnosis, Baton Pass, and Thunderbolt), and a superior ability. Glaceon's Ice Beams outpower Kadabra's Psychics, and Rotom is nearly as powerful but also gets dual STAB. The scariest thing about Kadabra, in my eyes, would be Trick, but it's not as if we lack those in UU

Kadabra has only slightly better stats than Mr. Mime? Rotoms nearly as powerful? Are you kidding? I'm going to assume you were comparing these pokemon to Abra and not Kadabra. Kadabra has a max Special Attack of 372 and a max Speed of 339. Mr. Mime has 328/306 as its max in Special Attack and Speed respectively and Rotom only has 317/309. How do these even come close to Kadabra in terms of offense?

Mr. Mime may have a superior movepool but Kadabra has more than enough in its repetoir to definitley be considered more of an offensive threat than Mr. Mime. I also don't see the point in the comparison to Glaceon who has some of the strongest STAB attacks in the game let alone UU. They are completely different pokemon and are not going to be used in the same way. It's like saying Infernape has less Special Attack than Ampharos therefore it won't be as much of a threat.

Aside from this little rant on NFEs i'm still asking what the general consensus on Kabutops is? Is it actually worth banning or should it be allowed to stay in UU?

 

[jrrrrrrr]

Kabutops is really only great with Rain support. Even with its Rock typing, it can't really switch into anything without taking huge chunks of damage, and the presence of many Water Aborbers really shut it down. Poliwrath and Quagire really wall it, as does Meganium. If you use Aerial Ace for Poliwrath/Grass types, then you lose either your priority move or STAB Stone Edge, and that would really neuter Kabutops in terms of sweeping potential. Kabutops is good, top-tier UU, but it is situational and tough to get in.

 

[stvn]

I still think Kabutops is too much of a threat (as is Omastar). Sure "rain support" (and to tell you the truth it doesnt even need it) but its not like rain isnt easy to setup. With rain you dont even need Aqua Jet, having an free slot to abuse Aerial Ace or even Return. It has some common weaks, shure, but normal/ice/flying/fire is everything he needs (besides some walls not liking to risk being hit by an Choice Banded attack just to try to cripple him) to scare something off and setup.

I have found me using Poliwrath on my teams just for countering him (not that Poli is a bad Poke, but I cant seem to find another replacement).