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DP Tier Discussion - BL and UU (mark 2)

Aerodactyl is the only one that I have any problems with. Very few of the physical walls in UU like taking STAB CB Stone Edges off of 105 attack, and that 130 Base Speed makes it the fastest thing in UU bar none. EQ handles Steelix and Aggron, and it gets 2 filler moves just to piss people off.
 
I agree that Stone Edge/Earthquake/Double-Edge could wreck nearly everything in UU, and most of what can avoid a 2HKO from that lacks recovery or can't OHKO Aerodactyl in the first place. The main problem about Aerodactyl is that it's so fast, and you'll need a fast Scarfer (or Electrode) or it will run you down once your counter has been lowered to about ~60%. (That's also why I wanted Deoxys-E banned)

It doesn't have to run Choice Band either, it can run a Life Orb set fine too which ruins the "beat it with prediction" argument. Of course that will bring up "residual damage" arguments...
 
Glaceon is the least of our worries. Weezing + Steelix is such a gay combo though, I agree that it's too much of a complete stop to physical attackers.

When I read that those Pokemon were being moved down, you know what I did? I opened up Team-builder, and immediately dedicated three slots to Weezing, Steelix, and Clefable. Story of UU I fear.
 
umbarsc said:
Glaceon is the least of our worries. Weezing + Steelix is such a gay combo though, I agree that it's too much of a complete stop to physical attackers.

When I read that those Pokemon were being moved down, you know what I did? I opened up Team-builder, and immediately dedicated three slots to Weezing, Steelix, and Clefable. Story of UU I fear.
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Yeah, I must agree but Golduck with Cross Chop and Hydro Pump is probably an okay counter. Boosted special STAB fire and water moves probably work too.
 
Physical sweepers in UU aren't done for, it's just harder to pull off now. Weezing's defenses aren't exactly top notch and he won't be able to switch in on a Band/Scarf Lee and similar Pokes. Close Combat is still a 180 Power move backed up by a lot of Attack, and will still 3KO Weezing. I'd advice you to stop the ''HEAR ME! HEAR ME! WE'RE ALL DOOMED!'' stuff and get to the design table already. Aerodactyl will be UU's Heracross though, at least I'd guess so. What would be gay would be Rotom + Ninetales + Steelix + Quagsire but that's already doable, and works mostly on paper.
 
I came back from my trip....

...and there's so many changes already.

Aero is UU (or at least unbanned)? Unexpected...I thought its popularity as a lead would bump it up to OU. Oh well. I'm happy for Venusaur, thank god.
 
Weezing's defenses aren't exactly top notch and he won't be able to switch in on a Band/Scarf Lee and similar Pokes. Close Combat is still a 180 Power move backed up by a lot of Attack, and will still 3KO Weezing. I'd advice you to stop the ''HEAR ME! HEAR ME! WE'RE ALL DOOMED!'' stuff and get to the design table already.
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Jolly max Attack CB Hitmonlee's Close Combat to max HP/Def Impish/Bold Weezing: 26.35 - 31.14%.

Not even a guaranteed 4HKO with SR factoring in Leftovers. In that time Weezing can Will-o-wisp then Pain Split at low health.

I agree with you on the second part though. People should just stop moaning based on theorymon and adapt. If UU is more centralized this time next month we will see that something is wrong and try to fix it.

On that note I was of the opinion that Zangoose would be a good addition as it would force more balance in team building, given that it is capable of putting fear into offensive and defensive teams, but not both at the same time. Will have to wait for next month though if anything. Just my 2 cents.

The NFEs of UU pokemon have also been unbanned.
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Does that include BL NFEs as well? I don't see why not, although some people still have reservations.

EDIT: Oh one more thing. I wonder what Weezing's standard set will be in UU? I reckon Will-o-wisp will be essential, and probably Thunderbolt also to break Poliwrath's Subs. The other two slots could be anything from Haze, Pain Split, Flamethrower, Sludge Bomb, Shadow Ball, Payback, Explosion etc. It will be interesting to see what the common movesets turn out to be.
 
Wow, I was gone for a couple hours and my suggestion was already implemented! Though I feel that it was already decided before hand... However, alot of people are complaining which is somewhat understandable. It has only been a day (not even) things should become stable sooner than later. If not we can once again add more or take away.

EDIT:

Mantis said:
If you are gonna bring down more pokes, bring down a fvcking Glaceon counter that isn't 3HKO'd.
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Defensive Glaceon counters Glaceon. How Ironic...
 
Exclamation Point said:
Wow, I was gone for a couple hours and my suggestion was already implemented! Though I feel that it was already decided before hand... However, alot of people are complaining which is somewhat understandable. It has only been a day (not even) things should become stable sooner than later. If not we can once again add more or take away.

EDIT:



Defensive Glaceon counters Glaceon. How Ironic...
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Lol, Glaceon is 3hko'd by specs ice beam. But I have to agree with umbarsc, Glaceon is the least of our worries now...
 
I think it's safe to say Aerodactyl is causing a stir right now... at least they brought down a decent counter, in Weezing?

Weezing will no doubt jump to top 10 if the changes stay, with it's ability to wall the fighters and new-found threat in Aerodactyl.

Rise in Claydol usage anyone? It's already #2 on the list, but now it also stands as a decent answer to non-Choice Banded Aeros, and has the ability to take down two of it's fellow defensive behemoths in Weezing and Steelix.

This is going to dramatically change the face of UU, no doubt about it.
 
Rise in Claydol usage anyone? It's already #2 on the list, but now it also stands as a decent answer to non-Choice Banded Aeros, and has the ability to take down two of it's fellow defensive behemoths in Weezing and Steelix.
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Gastrodon is a better counter IMO as it has access to reliable recovery, and can also deal with Weezing and Steelix using Surf, although Pain Split is likely to be an annoyance I admit.
 
Lemmiwinks MkII said:
Gastrodon is a better counter IMO as it has access to reliable recovery, and can also deal with Weezing and Steelix using Surf, although Pain Split is likely to be an annoyance I admit.
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Agreed..

It still stands though, taking into consideration Claydol is at #2 already, without Aero and Weezing... Only way I can see it not rising is if enough people dump it to replace it as a fighting counter for Weezing itself.


Either way though, that is not the issue at hand, only a small observation...
 
Weezing will eventually surpass Claydol as the best fighting/Aero/Steelix counter due to better typing, WoW and a way to recover (Pain Split). I truly believe the best way now is stall, although I'm a bit concerned about Miltank and the Curse set - even fighters will cry after a Curse or two (and possibly Chopple Berry), while it hits practically anything with Body Slam and EQ.
 
rkatzam said:
Weezing will eventually surpass Claydol as the best fighting/Aero/Steelix counter due to better typing, WoW and a way to recover (Pain Split). I truly believe the best way now is stall, although I'm a bit concerned about Miltank and the Curse set - even fighters will cry after a Curse or two (and possibly Chopple Berry), while it hits practically anything with Body Slam and EQ.
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there's Aero, Intimidate Top, WoW Weezing, and hell even Shedinja now for Cursing Miltank. Curse sets dont like status either.

Other than that, unorthodox tactics might be needed in order to take one down. Curse does lower it's decent speed, which leaves it open to things like Encore, Disable, and faster sleepers. But yeah, this can be very potent otherwise. :P
 
So do the changes of new pokes in the UU metagame mean that the analysises are going to be need to be changed, or are these just test for right now? If its the first choice, the Counters section and even the sets themselves are mainly focused on OU pokes which is going to be confusing...
 
Aerodactyl is going to become the Deoxys-E of UU. I'd build a set completely around whittiling down Aero's counters, and then sweeping like crazy with that awesome speed, attack, and movepool.
 
matty said:
So do the changes of new pokes in the UU metagame mean that the analysises are going to be need to be changed, or are these just test for right now?
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i would assume the latter. we'd only have a use for altering the analyses if, after the testing period, it is determined that one or more of the former BL pokemon will be okay in UU. for now, while testing is going on, we should probably be determining what the most effective UU movesets/counters/etc. for these nine pokemon would be so that there would ACTUALLY be something concrete to put in the analyses.
 
ryomou said:
i would assume the latter. we'd only have a use for altering the analyses if, after the testing period, it is determined that one or more of the former BL pokemon will be okay in UU. for now, while testing is going on, we should probably be determining what the most effective UU movesets/counters/etc. for these nine pokemon would be so that there would ACTUALLY be something concrete to put in the analyses.
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haha, no i think you misunderstood. What I was asking about was:
1) Are these new tier changes a test, or permanent?
Since that was your first post (sorry to hold that over your head), you wouldn't probably be the well informed person to tell me. (Maniac, could you tell me).

2) If the pokes ARE in fact permanent, then the analysis need to be changed for Counters and also commentary concerning OU pokes.
You however said that new UU set standards need to be made, which is silly seeing as if the sets functioned well in OU, then why wouldn't they function well in UU?

Seven Deadly Sins said:
Aerodactyl is going to become the Deoxys-E of UU. I'd build a set completely around whittiling down Aero's counters, and then sweeping like crazy with that awesome speed, attack, and movepool.
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see this is what I'm also worried about; Aero might become the Deo-S of UU, so fast and a good attack stat that it will rip through teams that are unprepared
 
matty said:
haha, no i think you misunderstood, etc.
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my apologies. i did understand the first part of your question, and i based my answer off information i got while lurking around shoddy. i was definitely told at some point, after my own inquiry, that the UU tier changes were currently for testing, but who knows. i could be wrong.

as for the UU "set standards" bit, that was definitely a gaffe.
 
The changes are "permanent". There is no such thing as "permanent" tier changes, so this is as permanent as it gets. Everything can be discussed and changed if deemed necessary.
 
I actually think ryomou answered your question pretty nicely.

Obviously whether or not these changes are permanent will depend on the next few days or weeks. Testing is ongoing right now and you can't say if anything is going to stay or not...

Yeah, I agree that the Counters and commentary will need to be adjusted if these pokemon are to stay, but, sets are always being made to suit different tiers as well. Yes, the OU standard can definitely be viable in UU, but different tiers call for different things sometimes. Just look at the Nidos, or even something like Shiftry that has sets just for Ubers as well...
 
Winto said:
Yeah, I agree that the Counters and commentary will need to be adjusted if these pokemon are to stay, but, sets are always being made to suit different tiers as well. Yes, the OU standard can definitely be viable in UU, but different tiers call for different things sometimes. Just look at the Nidos, or even something like Shiftry that has sets just for Ubers as well...
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ok, but do the new pokes suggested need new sets that will make them much better? I honestly think that the analyses already there are going to be quiet effective in UU as it stands right now.

K thanks for answering my question ryomou. Didn't want to call you out, just wanted a solid answer from someone more involved. :toast:
 
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