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DP Tier Discussion - BL and UU (mark 2)
- Thread starter Phuquoph
- Start date
Given how Steelix walls non-fighting and non-ground attacks so effortlessly, and those are some of the most common in both OU and UU (UU especially, with Hitmonlee and Hitmontop, as well as Nidoking/queen), Weezing wouldn't be too terribly overpowered. Also, Grumpig and Hypno can come in on the special attacks that it usually packs and dispose of it quickly with STAB Psychic, so the two bulky Psychics are pretty ironclad counters to Weezing. I just think that Fighting-types are so rampant in the UU metagame that they need a check, and no way is Weezing more dominant as a wall than the others in the metagame, namely Steelix, which boasts way more defense and resistances, and Aggron, which can actually hit stuff while it's walling.
There was recently a warstory that showed that it is completely viable to make a team entirely around users of Close Combat and other fighting moves and still win, and I think that Weezing might be a good way to eliminate that.
There was recently a warstory that showed that it is completely viable to make a team entirely around users of Close Combat and other fighting moves and still win, and I think that Weezing might be a good way to eliminate that.
yes so that makes clefable and steelix even harder to remove, wonderful, rotom, banette, froslass can all come in on fighting and wall it, even hypno, we dont need another bulky pokemon with ONE weakness in UU, especially as steelix clefable and possibly persian are top used pokes other then hitmontop, toxicroak, weezing is not needed, Rotom can WoW fighting types and not take damage, why do we need weezing?
Why do you people automatically assume all Fighting types are either Choice Banded or Choice Scarfed, or that these pokemon will always be switching into a fighting move? Rotom is the best switch in out of any of the pokemon you have listed but it is definitely no direct counter to any fighting type. If Rotom is focused on defense it will still be 2HKOed by most Life Orbed or Choice Banded Fighting types and will in turn be slower than them and not able to Will O Wisp them. If it is fast enough to Will O Wisp them then it runs the risk of being OHKOed if it switches into the wrong move.
Banette and Frosslass have less resistances than Rotom and can therefore only switch in on Close Combat. Any other move and they're in deep trouble as they cannot OHKO any of the Fighting types even if they do survive. Hypno requires Defense EVs to be able to switch into CB or Life Orb fighters and most of the time will still lose 1 vs 1. And as i've said many times before Weezing isn't being brought down simply to combat Fighting types, it was suggested because it does not look as though it can overpower the tier, thus I see no reason to at least test it. If it is found to be too powerful which i highly doubt it will be, then it will simply be moved back up to BL.
Usage statistics are out, and Claydol is #2, it's not only got utility for it but it's also the main go-to pokemon to counter fighting types. I think bringing Weezing down will be a good idea, the only drawback being an annoying combo with Steelix. (#1 UU pokemon)
The usage statistics for them month of July have been posted at the following link.
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1380020&postcount=1
Feel free to discuss....etc.
The BL Pokemon proposed to be tested should be moved from BL to UU on the site and ladder within the following few days.
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1380020&postcount=1
Feel free to discuss....etc.
The BL Pokemon proposed to be tested should be moved from BL to UU on the site and ladder within the following few days.
Except that #2 UU Pokemon deals with both of them easily. Plus the predominantly physical Fighting/Ground type moves aren't normally the best method of dealing with Steelix anyway. Special Water/Fire attacks are far more efficient, and Weezing doesn't like them either.
I think the only plausible argument for keeping Weezing out of UU would be that it would encourage even more stall than there currently is. However, Weezing would not likely be the main culprit for this, so it seems unfair to single it out just because it is currently not in UU.
I'm ok with the Weezing test too, if it is too powerful it will obviously be moved up again.
I thought Clefable would be higher, maybe now people will stop bitching about her usage a little, as I said on the other topic (I know #5 is high but, people talk about her like being even more abused than Steelix).
edit: what is the final decision about Kabutops/Omastar ?
I thought Clefable would be higher, maybe now people will stop bitching about her usage a little, as I said on the other topic (I know #5 is high but, people talk about her like being even more abused than Steelix).
edit: what is the final decision about Kabutops/Omastar ?
Decided to post the extra information about Clefable and what sets it actually commonly runs, instead of the "tons" of sets some people in this thread claim to see it using.
Code:
| Clefable | Ability | Magic Guard | 96.3 |
| Clefable | Ability | Cute Charm | 3.7 |
| Clefable | Item | Leftovers | 45.2 |
| Clefable | Item | Toxic Orb | 33.1 |
| Clefable | Item | Life Orb | 13.8 |
| Clefable | Item | Other (20) | 0.4 |
| Clefable | Nature | Calm | 33.9 |
| Clefable | Nature | Bold | 26.0 |
| Clefable | Nature | Adamant | 13.1 |
| Clefable | Nature | Other (16) | 1.7 |
| Clefable | HP EV | Max | 80.5 |
| Clefable | HP EV | Very High (200+) | 7.9 |
| Clefable | HP EV | Other (5) | 2.3 |
| Clefable | Attack EV | None | 75.8 |
| Clefable | Attack EV | Max | 14.1 |
| Clefable | Attack EV | Other (5) | 2.0 |
| Clefable | Defense EV | None | 46.9 |
| Clefable | Defense EV | High (150-200) | 24.9 |
| Clefable | Defense EV | Max | 10.8 |
| Clefable | Defense EV | Other (4) | 4.4 |
| Clefable | SpAttack EV | None | 81.7 |
| Clefable | SpAttack EV | Medium (100-150) | 6.8 |
| Clefable | SpAttack EV | Other (5) | 2.3 |
| Clefable | SpDefense EV | None | 41.2 |
| Clefable | SpDefense EV | Max | 22.3 |
| Clefable | SpDefense EV | Medium (100-150) | 17.5 |
| Clefable | SpDefense EV | Other (4) | 4.8 |
| Clefable | Speed EV | None | 89.4 |
| Clefable | Speed EV | Other (6) | 1.8 |
| Clefable | Move | Softboiled | 64.2 |
| Clefable | Move | Ice Beam | 30.0 |
| Clefable | Move | Thunder Wave | 29.3 |
| Clefable | Move | Wish | 28.2 |
| Clefable | Move | Seismic Toss | 27.4 |
| Clefable | Move | Encore | 26.0 |
| Clefable | Move | Protect | 24.2 |
| Clefable | Move | Facade | 23.5 |
| Clefable | Move | Thunderbolt | 22.9 |
| Clefable | Move | Calm Mind | 20.0 |
| Clefable | Move | Other (62) | 1.7 |
| Clefairy | Ability | Magic Guard | 71.4 |
| Clefairy | Ability | Cute Charm | 28.6 |
| Clefairy | Item | Leftovers | 53.1 |
| Clefairy | Item | No Item | 22.4 |
| Clefairy | Item | Other (8) | 2.0 |
| Clefairy | Nature | Bold | 57.1 |
| Clefairy | Nature | Lonely | 26.5 |
| Clefairy | Nature | Other (4) | 4.1 |
| Clefairy | HP EV | Max | 65.3 |
| Clefairy | HP EV | None | 26.5 |
| Clefairy | HP EV | Other (2) | 4.1 |
| Clefairy | Attack EV | None | 91.8 |
| Clefairy | Attack EV | Very Low (<50) | 6.1 |
| Clefairy | Attack EV | Low (50-100) | 2.0 |
| Clefairy | Defense EV | High (150-200) | 53.1 |
| Clefairy | Defense EV | None | 34.7 |
| Clefairy | Defense EV | Other (2) | 6.1 |
| Clefairy | SpAttack EV | None | 83.7 |
| Clefairy | SpAttack EV | Max | 8.2 |
| Clefairy | SpAttack EV | Other (2) | 4.1 |
| Clefairy | SpDefense EV | Medium (100-150) | 55.1 |
| Clefairy | SpDefense EV | None | 38.8 |
| Clefairy | SpDefense EV | Low (50-100) | 6.1 |
| Clefairy | Speed EV | None | 91.8 |
| Clefairy | Speed EV | Very Low (<50) | 6.1 |
| Clefairy | Speed EV | Low (50-100) | 2.0 |
| Clefairy | Move | Softboiled | 57.1 |
| Clefairy | Move | Encore | 57.1 |
| Clefairy | Move | Thunder Wave | 57.1 |
| Clefairy | Move | Seismic Toss | 55.1 |
| Clefairy | Move | Metronome | 24.5 |
| Clefairy | Move | Sweet Kiss | 24.5 |
| Clefairy | Move | Moonlight | 20.4 |
| Clefairy | Move | Magical Leaf | 20.4 |
| Clefairy | Move | Other (21) | 2.0 |10 possible moves is still 10% between them, still not an easy guess when you do face it. 3 possible items, we get a good picture of EV spread from this, still, it seems weighted towards defence builds, where is cosmic power though, for walling i thought that would be prime choice.
just a shame magic guard and (insert indirect damage orb here) makes it ever so harder to distrupt, i had a glance at steelix, not as close with the moves.
just a shame magic guard and (insert indirect damage orb here) makes it ever so harder to distrupt, i had a glance at steelix, not as close with the moves.
To be fair, nearly every Clefable set is some kind of support set. The 10 different moves don't require vastly different counters or something.
However, I'm still on the fence about it. It is so versatile it is impossible to predict. An offensive switch could mean your sweeper eats a Thunder Wave or attack (Double Edge/Fire Blast/Ice Beam/Softboiled holding a Life Orb with offensive EVs is what I use, it packs a lot of power against frail sweepers). A defensive switch could become set-up fodder for something like Calm Mind or Belly Drum, or it could just annoy it with moves like Toxic and Wish.
As of now I'm still not entirely convinced it should be BL, though LonelyNess made a pretty good effort when he used it against me. Basically, I didn't have a fighting-type, so it completely stalled me out, which seems to happen a lot.
However, I'm still on the fence about it. It is so versatile it is impossible to predict. An offensive switch could mean your sweeper eats a Thunder Wave or attack (Double Edge/Fire Blast/Ice Beam/Softboiled holding a Life Orb with offensive EVs is what I use, it packs a lot of power against frail sweepers). A defensive switch could become set-up fodder for something like Calm Mind or Belly Drum, or it could just annoy it with moves like Toxic and Wish.
As of now I'm still not entirely convinced it should be BL, though LonelyNess made a pretty good effort when he used it against me. Basically, I didn't have a fighting-type, so it completely stalled me out, which seems to happen a lot.
Just throwing in my arbitrary opinion that I do not believe Clefable needs to be moved up at this juncture, simply for one reason: there are Pokemon more pressing than Clefable to be considered for moving up.
I think the usage statistics pretty much show us that Steelix needs to priority #1 in that area, and for you people who don't like using usage statistics as a basis...well consider that a lot of people have subjectively felt that it should be moved up anyway.
Can we shift this conversation for moving up to the ones with the highest priority?
I guess we need to establish the highest priority first, and for me that Steelix.
Other thoughts welcome and appreciated.
I think the usage statistics pretty much show us that Steelix needs to priority #1 in that area, and for you people who don't like using usage statistics as a basis...well consider that a lot of people have subjectively felt that it should be moved up anyway.
Can we shift this conversation for moving up to the ones with the highest priority?
I guess we need to establish the highest priority first, and for me that Steelix.
Other thoughts welcome and appreciated.
I thought it was already established that usage held no bearing on whether or not a Pokemon got banned when trying to balance "balanced" tiers. It can be a factor, but Steelix is hardly overpowering.
Does anyone seriously think that Steelix should be banned? The usage is the only "basis" for that argument. It has proved to be an annoying wall, but that's not justification to ban a Pokemon. It has exploitable weaknesses and SpD, and its offensive power is rather low.
Does anyone seriously think that Steelix should be banned? The usage is the only "basis" for that argument. It has proved to be an annoying wall, but that's not justification to ban a Pokemon. It has exploitable weaknesses and SpD, and its offensive power is rather low.
I definitely agree the discussion should be about Steelix now, exactly because it's #1 right now, by quite a gap over #2.
It is the best physical wall in UU currently... and quite frankly, it doesn't need any ATK EVs at all to be successful. 252 Sp.Def/HP EVs make it even harder to take down, as it will usually survive a STAB'd attack and might kill in return with Explosion or EQ. Even Ninetales will need a Life Orb to guarantee a kill.
But that's not even the issue. Roar is even harder to deal with when you don't have at least 3 pokemon with a super effective special attack against it in your team (and maybe 1 fighter).. and as for the fighters, even Adamant Choice Band Hitmonlee will have the slightest shot to OHKO Steelix with Close Combat, while Steelix gets to revenge it with EQ and -1 DEF.
Personally, I'm all for moving it up again.
It is the best physical wall in UU currently... and quite frankly, it doesn't need any ATK EVs at all to be successful. 252 Sp.Def/HP EVs make it even harder to take down, as it will usually survive a STAB'd attack and might kill in return with Explosion or EQ. Even Ninetales will need a Life Orb to guarantee a kill.
But that's not even the issue. Roar is even harder to deal with when you don't have at least 3 pokemon with a super effective special attack against it in your team (and maybe 1 fighter).. and as for the fighters, even Adamant Choice Band Hitmonlee will have the slightest shot to OHKO Steelix with Close Combat, while Steelix gets to revenge it with EQ and -1 DEF.
Personally, I'm all for moving it up again.
I think Weezing should come down and Steelix should go up. In the end, Weezing/Aggron might be a pretty gay defensive combo, but I don't see it being as overpowering as Steelix.
If Steelix is going to be moved up, stuff like Absol and Scyther should go with him really, which I personally don't mind because their presence is only justified by the fact that Steelix walls them.
My 2 cents..
You don't need Steelix to beat stuff like Scyther and (lol) Absol. SR is more than enough to keep Scyther at bay, and with Rotom blocking Rapid Spin and being quite a decent counter to it, I don't think there's much to worry about. Bulky water/ground pokes like Gastrodon and Quagsire can also stop him. If he isn't carrying Brick Break, rock/steel pokes walk all over him.
I couldn't agree more.
However, I dont think we should move them up. We should move down Bl's in debate. I know the process has always been discuss X named poke debate then see where everything lays. However, I propose that we move about this in a different way...
Right now we have ~9 Bl's in question to move down to UU. Why not move them ALL in one movement. They would be...
- Shedinja (Very Low)
- Venusaur (Very Low)
- Weezing (Low/Average)
- Articuno (Low/Average)
- Miltank (Average)
- Aerodactyl (Average)
- Marowak (High/Average)
- Tauros (High/Average)
- Regigigas (High/Average)
I'm sry but I'll have to finish this later... Unless there is no need for further discussion (if there is any....)
There has to be a reason as to why "walls" are so high in usage. Perhaps some investigation into the pokemon they're walling needs to happen? I'm curious to see what effects Weezing will bring into play. If it will bring forth a "special attacking" bias into the metagame.
EDIT:
Exclamation Point, only those with Low to Average usage are being considered to be moved down as right now if I recall correctly.
EDIT:
Exclamation Point, only those with Low to Average usage are being considered to be moved down as right now if I recall correctly.
I have to disagree with this...
Fighting is used a lot, to put in bluntly, because it's good sweeping material. If you need a good sweeper, there's a good 4-5 viable fighting types in UU, which is why you see one on so many teams.
Clefable, yes, I can't argue against that, but not Steelix. If your best answer to Steelix is a fighting type, you better have something else to weaken it first... because as rkatzam has outlined, one on one you're going to take some heavy damage if you can't OHKO.
Saying that, Steelix is hardly overpowering with a tier so full of bulky grass and water types... I have to agree with umbarsc on this. This is not a Garchomp we are talking about by any stretch, it's not going to take down 2 or 3 pokes a game.
EDIT:
Wow.. this is going to be interesting :)
Fighting dominance just to a big blow (Weezing), as did the common Clefable maybe? (Shedinja)