I recently returned from a hiatus, and I'm looking over the tier list....gameplay wise, was there any extreme, major changes since January? In the meantime, I'll just lurk.
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DP Tier Discussion - BL and UU (mark 2)
- Thread starter Phuquoph
- Start date
I see Weezing with very low opposition for being moved down. If UU is indeed too heavily biased towards physical sweepers he'd do well, 120def and WoW on the same pokemon make him a real pain in the ass to deal with if you don't have special sweepers to scare him off. I think that if Weezing moved down that some physical sweepers up in BL could have a chance at moving down as well, considering Weezing preforms fairly well in OU, and would probably be solidly OU if he had good recovery and a not so shitty HP stat on a defensive pokemon. His pure poison typing/levitate give him only one x2 weakness which is rarely seen on the physical spectrum. He'd also make Leafeon 100% undeniably UU because he walls anything Leafeon can even consider doing.
Maybe it's just because I like Weezing and can't really use him on OU teams with all of the Garchomps running around, but I think he deserves a chance in UU.
Maybe it's just because I like Weezing and can't really use him on OU teams with all of the Garchomps running around, but I think he deserves a chance in UU.
I really don't understand the point in saying if you move down pokemon X to UU then you can also move down pokemon Y because now it has a counter and the metagame isn't broken - you can go on like that forever and eventually the actual UU pokes won't see any use because it will turn into a BL fiesta.
I agree with rkatzam on this one. I think we should wait and see how things start working out with steelix and drapion a while more. Weezing seems like a really over-powered inclusion imo. I mean, those physical defenses are combined with a terrific special movepool that can really hurt-- at least steelix just sits on his fat ass. :/
Anyway, I'm not too sure how any of this is going to work out-- the fall of wish-hypno makes me think special sweepers are going to be coming out. I mean, imagine what would happen in OU if Blissey suddenly lost softboiled? O.o
That is essentially what has happened in UU with the premier special defensive pokemon losing its recovery move. Heh, maybe Muk will be the one whose use shoots up. :o
Anyway, I'm not too sure how any of this is going to work out-- the fall of wish-hypno makes me think special sweepers are going to be coming out. I mean, imagine what would happen in OU if Blissey suddenly lost softboiled? O.o
That is essentially what has happened in UU with the premier special defensive pokemon losing its recovery move. Heh, maybe Muk will be the one whose use shoots up. :o
Weezing actually has a pretty average Special movepool and is generally restricted to Flamethrower, Shadow Ball, Thunderbolt and Sludge Bomb in terms of usable special attacks. Weezing also has the same Special attack stat as Steelix has attack so it's not going do be doing much that can really "hurt".
I wouldn't be surprised if there is rise in usuage since the top threat to Muk is Grumpig who gets steamrolled by a STAB Gunk Shot or a Shadow Sneak. I wouldn't go as far to say it'd be the premier though, it still lacks a recovery.
On the other hand special attack seems to generally hurt more than physical does at similar bases. Probably due to larger ammount of physical threats to special threats out there in D/P in general causing defense bias. Not that I'm saying Weezing would be sweeper of the year since it'd probably invest in HP and defense anyway.
That may be true, but Weezing has better type coverage (if you want it), and access to a recovery move, unlike Steelix. Also no crippling weaknesses to common types that seem to keep the former in check.
I agree with whoever said the best course of action would be to remove those offensive threats that are overpowering, instead of just adding walls until you get a stallfest.
Yeah, only thunderbolt, flamethrower and shadowball, because those attacks suck so bad. >.> If steelix had Flare Blitz and Volt Tackle, I think we'd have a different view of its offenses. Besides hidden power rounding out weezing's coverage. Even a weak offensive stat can be used to good effect if it can hit the weaknesses of specific targets.
edit: Besides, using a pokemon we just added, and are still keeping an eye on as the comparison is not very comforting. It shows this mentality we have of just adding and adding.
Um, on the topic of Weezing's offensive prowess, what is it honestly going to do to Grumpig, Probopass, Hypno, Lanturn, Shuckle, Clefable, Lunatone, Altaria, Nidoqueen, or even Ampharos? And this is even including Will-o-Wisp as an offensive move. Noctowl, Lapras, Walrein, Drifblim, Politoed, and Walrein are only 3HKOed by Thunderbolt (if they use very defensive sets), so they are safe switch-ins as well.
That's why you have 5 additional slots. It can still WoW and then switch out, leaving his mark on them.
If Weezing is let in, it WILL be the best UU physical wall, hands down. The only thing Steelix has over it is walling things like Swellow and Facade Clefable. Other than that, it plans to not only wall but severely cripple any physical attacker (barring Rapidash), it can Haze away stat ups, and it can explode on special switch ins. It's got one crappy weakness, unlike all the other physical walls.
I would just hold off on it for a bit.
If Weezing is let in, it WILL be the best UU physical wall, hands down. The only thing Steelix has over it is walling things like Swellow and Facade Clefable. Other than that, it plans to not only wall but severely cripple any physical attacker (barring Rapidash), it can Haze away stat ups, and it can explode on special switch ins. It's got one crappy weakness, unlike all the other physical walls.
I would just hold off on it for a bit.
What can WoW do that Toxic can't, aside from neutering physical attackers who arent switching into Weezing anyway? Being able to status poison and steel types isn't something i'd consider a reason to use it over Toxic since most steels and poison types in UU cant do that much to weezing aside from Special variants of Toxicroak.
Yes Weezing is good but I wouldn't call it the best wall in UU as Steelix does some things it cannot and they are still physical atatckers who can get past both of them. Introducing Weezing does not mean it's the end of physical offense in UU, as i've said before in a previous post i believe actually bringing viable walls into UU is changing it from the hyper offensive game it was to a more balanced one.
What are you defining as an "actual" UU poke? There is nothing inherently UU about any given set of pokemon ...
I honestly don't see it making that much difference ... I hardly ever used Wish Hypno and don't remember ever being particularly overwhelmed by special threats. There have always been alternatives.
Of course there are other alternatives but that doesn't mean special sweepers won't have an easier time now. I'm sure there are plenty of people who don't use blissey in OU and can handle special threats fine but if blissey lost softboiled, a lot of special sweepers become more dangerous.
A lot of Special Attackers were finding ways to get around Hypno regardless... Rotom/Venomath/Drifblim/Froslass had super-effective STAB, Luxray/Manectric got Crunch, etc. And there always was switching in a strong physical attacker while he Wished, if he used Protect you got free set-up, if he switched out he doesn't recover the damage taken.
That's not to say that he wasn't a great special wall, but there always have been plenty of viable alternatives. Everything that got walled by Hypno will inevitably get walled by something else. Probopass walls and cripples Ninetales just as well, Clefable is a good stop to things like Froslass, etc.
That's not to say that he wasn't a great special wall, but there always have been plenty of viable alternatives. Everything that got walled by Hypno will inevitably get walled by something else. Probopass walls and cripples Ninetales just as well, Clefable is a good stop to things like Froslass, etc.
probopass does not wall nor cripple ninetales. It gets slept and the fire attack is neutral.
Sleep Clause isn't a very difficult thing to demand. Just predict Hypnosis and go to a Sleep Talker. Obviously this requires prediction, but then again, what doesn't?
Fire Blast will not do enough damage to break Probopass's tough SpD, and in the meantime Probopass can utilize support options, and heal itself up with Wish support (I've been trying to emphasize the Xatu + Probopass walling duo but no one seems to listen).
Fire Blast will not do enough damage to break Probopass's tough SpD, and in the meantime Probopass can utilize support options, and heal itself up with Wish support (I've been trying to emphasize the Xatu + Probopass walling duo but no one seems to listen).
You can't demand prediction as a countering method. I know when I use ninetales I don't just randomly activate sleep clause by sleeping something. I usually nasty plot first. If probopass is your counter, you're gonna have to send it in or whatever else you send in trying to absorb sleep is gonna get blasted by a boosted FB.
The sleep move is to sleep its counters. Not some random sleep absorber they send in.
The sleep move is to sleep its counters. Not some random sleep absorber they send in.
Because it's prediction...you can't guarantee anything.
If we can call that a counter, all I'd need is a team that resisted every single type of attack and just switch around while toxic spikes/sandstorm slowly kills them. There, I've countered every single pokemon in the game.
If we can call that a counter, all I'd need is a team that resisted every single type of attack and just switch around while toxic spikes/sandstorm slowly kills them. There, I've countered every single pokemon in the game.
Because prediction isn't reliable. It's like saying that scarf alakazam is a surefire heracross counter because it can switch in on close combat and kill it. Note that I didn't run anything to see if zam would actually survive a CC, but I hope you see the example. Plus your enemy is also predicting, if you're out predicted and relying on prediction for a counter, you lose.