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DP Tier Discussion - BL and UU (mark 2)
- Thread starter Phuquoph
- Start date
But can they switch in safely into his Specs attack? No. Either way, he is capable of damaging his counters in a way, whether it's status or severe damage. Not to mention that ridiculous ability that comes handy at least once in the average UU battle with Intimidaters, Flash Fire and Water Absorb pokemon.
WHAT HAVE I DONE!?!??!?!
I totally ruined the entire last page. Sorry guys, I thought with stuff like Leafeon and Steelix added, you'd consider porygon2. However, before I give up on this, I have a few beefs.
-Who is going to run a Choice Specs Porygon2 set. it's a complete waste of his abilities. 339 special attack isn't really that high, and his strongest move is the 120 power Tri Attack. This is nothing compared to Omastar and Glaceon. It's completely outclassed as a sweeper, especially with that lousy 240 max speed.
-Porygon2 isn't going to have several status moves per set. It will either have Toxic or Thunderwave, so once you find out what it is (if you're worried, switch in the Steelix that's on every team) it's pretty easy to avoid. It will likely have one support move, recover, and two attacks.
- Porygon2 has 85/90/95 defenses. This is roughly 17% tougher on the physical side, and 6% weaker on the special side when compared to Clefable. (95/73/90) Unlike Clefable, he cannot stat-up, and is not immune to status attacks. Both have Recovery moves.
Anyways, yeah, ignore my Porygon2 proposition. Even though there's tons of things in UU that could take it on, we don't really need more stalling promoted right now.
I totally ruined the entire last page. Sorry guys, I thought with stuff like Leafeon and Steelix added, you'd consider porygon2. However, before I give up on this, I have a few beefs.
-Who is going to run a Choice Specs Porygon2 set. it's a complete waste of his abilities. 339 special attack isn't really that high, and his strongest move is the 120 power Tri Attack. This is nothing compared to Omastar and Glaceon. It's completely outclassed as a sweeper, especially with that lousy 240 max speed.
-Porygon2 isn't going to have several status moves per set. It will either have Toxic or Thunderwave, so once you find out what it is (if you're worried, switch in the Steelix that's on every team) it's pretty easy to avoid. It will likely have one support move, recover, and two attacks.
- Porygon2 has 85/90/95 defenses. This is roughly 17% tougher on the physical side, and 6% weaker on the special side when compared to Clefable. (95/73/90) Unlike Clefable, he cannot stat-up, and is not immune to status attacks. Both have Recovery moves.
Anyways, yeah, ignore my Porygon2 proposition. Even though there's tons of things in UU that could take it on, we don't really need more stalling promoted right now.
Aggron can come in on his resistances and wreck Specs versions. Banette is immune to Tri Attack and can CM up in front of it. Cradily has more than enough Sp. Def. to handle it. Lanturn heals itself with Volt Absorb and is bulky enough to take a Tri Attack. Muk survives a hit, nd either SubPunches or Poison Jabs it. Walrein, Vileplume, CMLunatone, I'm going down the tier list and finding plenty of pokes with the bulk to slow this thing down. I don't see why we can't give it a try.
EDIT: Beat by last post... Good point against stalling, but I still believe it's abilities are well suited for the UU environment... Ah well, it's a community decision...
EDIT: Beat by last post... Good point against stalling, but I still believe it's abilities are well suited for the UU environment... Ah well, it's a community decision...
If the arguments are down to "Well, I guess he could Toxic you", it's time for testing. Specs are the worst variation, no harder to wall than any other UU special attacker. The most dangerous set would be Toxic/Recover/Ice Beam/Tri Attack with a bulky EV spread in my opinion, but that still has trouble with Fighting-types, Steel-types, etc. It's also not difficult to wall, "go special wall" just like any other special attacking Pokemon in UU.
Remember, as astrohawke stated, it's not about being able to outright counter it, but how easily it switches in on Pokemon.
I'd rather face it than Clefable any day. Clefable is by far more unpredictable, has a larger movepool, and is immune to Toxic (which is rather common). The only things Porygon2 has over it are Trick Room, Tri Attack, and Trace, which aren't worth it in my eyes.
Remember, as astrohawke stated, it's not about being able to outright counter it, but how easily it switches in on Pokemon.
I'd rather face it than Clefable any day. Clefable is by far more unpredictable, has a larger movepool, and is immune to Toxic (which is rather common). The only things Porygon2 has over it are Trick Room, Tri Attack, and Trace, which aren't worth it in my eyes.
Yeah, it's just not that hard for P2 to run Psychic if Fighters become too much of a problem. Psychic on the Specs set would probably end up OHKOing most of them, since most of them don't invest in defensive EVs (besides Hitmontop). Really, the obscene movepool and 105 base special attack can destroy UU. Download was already mentioned as well, but it's just not that hard for P2 to come in on a physical wall and get a special attack boost with the ability to switch moves. That, or he could just have the equivalent to an auto Nasty Plot if he uses the Specs set with Download. What's going to be stopping him then from spamming Tri Attack everywhere, especially since he doesn't invest in speed much, so 252 HP EVs make him really bulky. Rotom and Banette can try and stop him, but they'll get eaten alive by something like Shadow Ball if they start to become a problem. I realize that P2 has 4-moveslot syndrome, but that just makes him all that much harder to predict.
Whatever though, as much as I feel it should stay up, it doesn't mean it doesn't at least deserve a test.
Whatever though, as much as I feel it should stay up, it doesn't mean it doesn't at least deserve a test.
105 base is weak? oh sure! are you forgetting this is UU? Manectric is one of the best sweepers and he has the same base as P2. Running status moves on P2 isn't exactly needed if you use it for Trick Room, and there's that 20% chance from Tri Attack. P2 has it a lot easier coming in than Omastar or Glaceon like you mentioned.
If you're willing to just ignore all that (which is pretty much what is happening now) you shouldn't ignore Trace - extremely useful in UU. I've already explained why and how, from now on I really don't care what is gonna be decided. This just seems like a very bad idea to me.
If you're willing to just ignore all that (which is pretty much what is happening now) you shouldn't ignore Trace - extremely useful in UU. I've already explained why and how, from now on I really don't care what is gonna be decided. This just seems like a very bad idea to me.
You don't count Download as something it has over Clefable? With Download it's offenses aren't exactly just anything to laugh at, and if it can come in on something with better physical defense than special defense, its special attack is suddenly near unstoppable considering he can still switch moves, and it's an instant boost. Download is another talent, though it is forgotten, it still is, don't forget.
I agree with Oddish and Rkatzam with saying no to Porygon 2 in UU.
Porygon2 really does seem like a bit much for UU to handle, sure its not overpowering in terms of straight up offense and some things can beat it or at least keep it in check but Porgon2 is bulky in Physical and Special Defense and still has recover and that base 105 special attack to to do respective damage to an opponent.
Charge Beam has been mentioned as a way of boosting Special Attack and is indeed viable but Download really should not be forgotten since it can give Porygon2 an extra 1.5 boost to it's Special Attack just by switching in on the appropriate pokemon. That is 678 Special Attack that a Specs set can produce which is the equilvalent of a Life Orbed Ninetales after a Nasty Plot, and we all know how much damage that can cause. My suggestion is to just let it remain in BL.
Porygon2 really does seem like a bit much for UU to handle, sure its not overpowering in terms of straight up offense and some things can beat it or at least keep it in check but Porgon2 is bulky in Physical and Special Defense and still has recover and that base 105 special attack to to do respective damage to an opponent.
Charge Beam has been mentioned as a way of boosting Special Attack and is indeed viable but Download really should not be forgotten since it can give Porygon2 an extra 1.5 boost to it's Special Attack just by switching in on the appropriate pokemon. That is 678 Special Attack that a Specs set can produce which is the equilvalent of a Life Orbed Ninetales after a Nasty Plot, and we all know how much damage that can cause. My suggestion is to just let it remain in BL.
"Bulky" and "Recover" applies to Clefable as well. Clefable's special attack isn't quite that high, but the massive movepool more than makes up for it, and plus it's not like base 105 is that threatening to the main special walls if you're using a defensive set.
But unlike Ninetales, Porygon2 can't switch attacks, so you're stuck using Tri Attack/Ice Beam against Probopass, Thunderbolt against Gastrodon, etc. Ninetales's power comes from the ability to switch attacks with the appropriate moves to hit its counters (Dark Pulsing Grumpig, using Energy Ball against Gastrodon), and Hypnosis, neither of which Porygon2 can boast about. Not to mention that Ninetales has Fire Blast, while Porygon2 has Tri Attack, which is like holding a Choice Specs as well as Life Orb at +2 SpA.
Clearly the precedent is to ban Clefable or test Porygon2.
Porygon2 is not really a threat to Special Walls if you are running a defensive set but that is only if your using a defensive set. Clefable's massive movepool doesn't make up for anything in my opnion as Porygon2 isn't exactly Beldum in the movepool department and has more than enough moves to do what it needs to do extremely well.
Porygon2 does not have to adhere to a Specs set to be an offensive threat. Porygon can run Download as well as Charge Beam which is a 63% chance that it is going to have the same 678 Special attack as on the Choice Specs set with the ability to switch moves as well as recover off damage.
There is always the option of running a Life Orb on the set if you wish which allows for a total of 881 Special Attack after one Charge Beam. Nothing in UU can take that kind of power. Porygon2 should remain in BL, it's not even worth testing in my opnion.
That is an extremely dangerous number I agree. However, Ninetails can Nasty Plot allowing it freely switch up moves.
Ninetails SpA after a Nasty Plot: 574 Special Attack
So you add on the fact that Ninetails has a STAB base 120 attack that can be powered up be her ability and you have an extremely huge attack. And can Porygon 2 simply sleep his counters away like Ninetails? All of this just wants me to either test Porygon 2 in UU or just move up Ninetails and/or Clefable to BL.
Nasty Plotting can be phazed.
That impressive STAB base 120 attack has low PP, is not a guaranteed hit, and is rendered completely useless by opposing Flash Fire pokemon.
Hypnosis is not Spore, there is still an element of risk involved in using so its not a sure fire solution to counters.
Yeah, but Ninetales actually has to waste a moveslot for Nasty Plot, and also a spot for Hypnosis. This only allows it two attacking moves, meaning that it gets walled easily with a moveset like that.
On the other hand, Porygon2 can just use Download as his ability, and start dealing heavy damage right away. That, and his boosting move doesn't require a completely free turn, because Charge Beam at least does a little chunk of damage, especially from the high special attack after Download. Ninetales isn't always going to be getting free turns to Nasty Plot up, however, Porygon2 doesn't even actually need these.
Alright. Porygon2 can be phazed though after Charge Beam. Also you never know exactly what stat download copies so that is up to luck. So you can't say ninetails has to take all this time to set up because porygon2 needs to find the right tiem to come in for download, and if he wants other boosts he has to use charge beam and hope for that special attack increase. And if he does get it he could eventually be phazed out.
Again though I guess that there is round a 80-90% chance for porygon2 to overpower uu although I am still one of those who want testing to see if he really performs as well on paper as you say he does.
Again though I guess that there is round a 80-90% chance for porygon2 to overpower uu although I am still one of those who want testing to see if he really performs as well on paper as you say he does.
Clefable can Calm Mind, which is arguably more dangerous than Download and Charge Beam because of its reliability. Download will only work if you send it out on the right Pokemon, and though in theory it sounds very easy to send it out on a physical wall, in practice every one of us knows that won't be happening 100%. Charge Beam only has a 63% chance of even working, and there are a lot of Pokemon with immunities to the move.
Also, it lacks Hypnosis to sleep its counters. Though you act as though it's a liability (Ninetales has Hypnosis it only has room for two attack moves), it's really not. It's the thing that makes Ninetales so difficult to counter in the first place, which essentially allows for two free Nasty Plots if you play your cards right, or you can sleep the actual counter and not just the sleep absorber they send in. And again, one reliable factor allows Ninetales to get to the same special attack as two unreliable factors allows Porygon2 to get to the same stat.
I'm not trying to argue "Porygon2 will not overpower the metagame", but "It's worth testing if Porygon2 actually overpowers the metagame". All of these theorymon arguments assume the right conditions every time, and no one knows if they are as reliable and powerful in the real game as they do in a Stark Mountain thread.
Also, it lacks Hypnosis to sleep its counters. Though you act as though it's a liability (Ninetales has Hypnosis it only has room for two attack moves), it's really not. It's the thing that makes Ninetales so difficult to counter in the first place, which essentially allows for two free Nasty Plots if you play your cards right, or you can sleep the actual counter and not just the sleep absorber they send in. And again, one reliable factor allows Ninetales to get to the same special attack as two unreliable factors allows Porygon2 to get to the same stat.
I'm not trying to argue "Porygon2 will not overpower the metagame", but "It's worth testing if Porygon2 actually overpowers the metagame". All of these theorymon arguments assume the right conditions every time, and no one knows if they are as reliable and powerful in the real game as they do in a Stark Mountain thread.
For me its personal preference ... I just don't particularly enjoy many of the strategies involved in stall based battles.
In which case we should surely proceed with Obi's original proposal and test all the BL pokemon ... ? It seems rather arbitrary to argue we should test P2, Weezing, Aerodactyl and not Honchkrow, Houndoom etc.
I'm feeling a bit uneasy about all that "MOVE MOAR WALLS TO UU SO WE CAN STOP THE MENACES" that seems to be going on.
Why not do the same for OU then? Lets move Lugia, Latias and Giratina down so we have a few walls that can stop the heavy hitters. Yeah. I said it.
Its whats going on in UU right now. Just add moar walls. Why don't we first evaluate which pokemon are the HUGE threats? So far I keep seeing the list of Ninetales-Scyther-Hitmonlee/top. Why not boot out those 4 first? Along with Steelix, please.
Seriously, why add more walls that render more pokes unusable (Vespiquen and Swellow still cry about Steelix) rather as kicking out the too big of a menaces and work from there?
Why not do the same for OU then? Lets move Lugia, Latias and Giratina down so we have a few walls that can stop the heavy hitters. Yeah. I said it.
Its whats going on in UU right now. Just add moar walls. Why don't we first evaluate which pokemon are the HUGE threats? So far I keep seeing the list of Ninetales-Scyther-Hitmonlee/top. Why not boot out those 4 first? Along with Steelix, please.
Seriously, why add more walls that render more pokes unusable (Vespiquen and Swellow still cry about Steelix) rather as kicking out the too big of a menaces and work from there?