DP Tier Discussion - BL and UU (mark 2)

[ODDish]

In my post above yours, I stated I was only using Steelix as an example, all Steel types work, as do sturdy walls not weak to MM/Facade(Not hard, Facade hits nothing SE, and Steel is a poor attacking type). I use Leafeon for physical sets and it does just fine.

And if the Clefable users deviate from the Facade/MM formula?
You could switch your Probopass into a Brick Break, or Leafeon into a Fire Blast, or ... well given the size of Clefables movepool we could be here a while so I'll stop there.

You said you find RestTalking a little too niche and unreliable, and to be honest, I actually don't find them that effective either, but plenty of other people use them, just because you aren't a fan of a set doesn't mean others don't use it. It can definitely be effective too, just look at the popularity of Heatran in OU.

And your point here would be ...? You're suggesting that I argued that others don't use Sleep Talkers? You feel that I shouldn't have expressed my opinion regarding Rest Talking because I find it a poor option?

As for its effectiveness in OU ... well to be perfectly honest I don't see what relavance it has regarding this discussion of UU. The environments are completely different.

 

[Luphrous]

If the Clefable users deviate from the Facade/MM formula they get a worse Clefable....Think about it. Clefable is going to keep Facade for STAB and its power. So with Ghosts already immune to Facade, who is going to run BB....Clefable's Physical move pool is actually quite shallow. The only other options it can use over MM are the Elemental Punches, which when SE are still weaker than STAB Facade.
Now, running F-Blast does allow it to get strong hits on quite a few Physical walls, but in exchange it gets no recovery at all. So now you just have to attack really. It's not that fast, sets w/o recovery won't last that long.

As far as the RestTalkers, I was merely pointing out that they do work as counters to Clefable that attempt to stall with Toxic.

On a related note, Aromatherapy/Heal Bell can also work. These moves obviously aren't on every team, but I'm just pointing out that they're there.

 

[Kira]

Ok my Clefable set

Clefable@Leftovers (though TOrd could work)
Calm Nature
252 HP/252 Sp.def/4 Spd
-Ice Beam
-Softboiled
-Thunderwave
-Encore

T-wave and Encore stalling has won me matches. It can provide numerous safe switch ins, along with allowing me to set-up.

This set really makes Clefable almost impossible to kill.

This is simply Bliseey w/ weight loss but with T-wave > Reflect/Lscreen

 

[gengod]

Kira, for what it's worth numerous things in UU can switch into that set as well as beat it such as Hitmonlee, Steelix, Hitmontop, Poliwrath, other Clefable, any faster Rest Talker....etc. It's hardly something i would consider impossible to kill.

The general argument I see developing for Clefable to move it to BL is that it's large movepool means that it has absolutely no 100% counter in UU. I ask again why is a 100% counter a necessity anyway?

Every one of Clefables sets have suffcient counters, unlike certain pokemon in UU who can one run one set and still rip through most teams (Primeape, Ninetales, Glaceon, Sharpedo....etc.). In my opnion Clefable simply a top tier UU, but not worth of BL status.

Also i've been wanting to bring this up. What is the general consensus on Miltank and Tauros in UU? Both were brought up and recieved recommendations for UU while some people did oppose them and said they should remain BL. Anymore input on that?

 

[stvn]

Kira, I think that's the set that EVERYONE uses, even myself (except I use Facade w/ Toxic Orb over Ice Beam)

I encounter that Clefable a lot and, like Blissey, it won't be hurting much.

 

[Buckles]

What is the general concensus on Miltank and Tauros in UU?

I think Tauros is way too strong for UU. High Speed, Great Attack, solid defenses and Intimidate, he's like Kangaskhan on steroids. As for Miltank, the large number of fighters in UU could make her return to the tier a possibility, especially if Cleffy is moved up. Though we are quite far from a consensus on that subject... (For what it's worth, my vote is to keep it (Cleffy) in UU for a while.)

 

[Luphrous]

Hm, Tauros and Miltank?
Well, personally I think both are a little too strong,
Tauros, while not exactly being versatile, still has great Speed, is quite bulky, and has a good Attack stat.
As for Miltank, very good defenses, a recovery move, Curse, and even Heal Bell, the Curse set looks pretty dangerous...Also, I'm pretty sure Miltank was tested before and proved to be too strong.

 

[evolutia]

I have a strong apprehension about allowing Tauros.

Life Orb makes Tauros quite the terror (Along with his regular CB set). His speed makes it very hard for opposing pokemon to counter him without taking extreme damage.

I also have apprehension about Miltank.

She's another defensive normal type;would adding such be a good idea with this Clefable controversy going on? She's a great cleric but has potential to be an even better offensive force. She is the only curser (That I know offhand) That has a 50% recovery move which is great. She has a trait that lets her hit ghosts. Steels and Rocks get pulverized by Hammer Arm.

It would take a substantial effort to take her down in my opinion. More than a team needs to exert just to take down one pokemon.

 

[gengod]

Also, I'm pretty sure Miltank was tested before and proved to be too strong.

Miltank has never been tested in D/P UU.

I have a strong apprehension about allowing Tauros.

Life Orb makes Tauros quite the terror (Along with his regular CB set). His speed makes it very hard for opposing pokemon to counter him without taking extreme damage.

I also have apprehension about Miltank.

She's another defensive normal type;would adding such be a good idea with this Clefable controversy going on? She's a great cleric but has potential to be an even better offensive force. She is the only curser (That I know offhand) That has a 50% recovery move which is great. She has a trait that lets her hit ghosts. Steels and Rocks get pulverized by Hammer Arm.

I personally agree with you about Tauros and i think it's offense although not that good at base 100 is still pretty decent when its combined with it's relatively good physical defense along with intimidate and it's above average physical movepool.

As for Miltank I do think it could have a place in UU. The most common Curse set has Body Slam, Milk Drink, Curse and either Heal Bell, Hammer Arm or Earthquake. Both sets are going to have issues in UU, the first one can take status but lacks any type of move coverage so it will have alot of trouble with the UU Steels and Rock types.

The second set has coverage but is susceptible to status like WoW and Toxic which both severly hamper it's sweeping ability. Aside from Curse sets Miltank doesn't have much going for it offensively and the abundance of fighting types and its average Special Defence really do help to balance it out in UU.

 

[Luphrous]

Maniaclyrasist: Yea, you do bring up a point about Miltank that I didn't see. I'm not convinced he has a place in UU yet, but he does have a chance at it.

 

[rkatzam]

What about Kangaskhan? Doesn't anyone feel she might a be too powerful for UU? Scrappy really makes her almost unstoppable.. also she's quite bulky and can use the sub set with little to no trouble at all. The only 'real' counters I've encountered are Lunatone and Solrock, for their typing, yet she can still do notable damage with Sucker Punch.

 

[Trust]

Kanghaskan isn't that good. It worked really well in my team with Return, Focus Punch, Substitute and Yawn, but the last one can't be used now because it's an event move... Anyway, it has an average attack, and can be scared by Hitmonlee or Hitmontop.

 

[rkatzam]

Behind a substitute he isn't scared of them. They can't really switch on STAB Return or Double Edge..

 

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

Behind a substitute he isn't scared of them. They can't really switch on STAB Return or Double Edge..

Hitmonlee can't but Hitmontop can quite comfortably with Intimidate. I use it as a Kanga counter quite a lot, other times I find bulky Leafeon to wall it quite easily. I've never found it to be much of a problem.

Anyway I thought it would be suitable to provide an update to the summary to reflect the current discussion so that newcomers don't get too confused:

In Discussion:
Miltank, Tauros, Clefable

Banished to BL:
- Feraligatr, Typhlosion, Crobat, Azumarill, Ursaring, Slowking, Mamoswine, Ambipom, Pinsir


Borderline UU's: (Ones under careful observation)
- Clefable, Scyther, Jynx, Leafeon, Ninetales (reinstated by Astrohawke)


BL's moved down to UU:
Claydol, Cloyster, Steelix, Drapion, Leafeon, Jynx


BL's with recommendations for movedown to UU or to be Tested.
(presented in terms of levels of opposition)

- Weezing (Very Low)
- Venusaur (Very Low/Low)
- Shedinja (Low)
- Articuno (Low/Average)
- Marowak (Average)
- Miltank (Average)
- Aerodactyl (Average)
- Tauros (High/Average)
- Regigigas (High/Average)
- Exeggutor (High)
- Porygon2 (High)
- Espeon (High)

BL's suggested for testing/movedown before but were blocked.
-Empoleon, Houndoom (rejected twice), Miltank, Flygon, Entei (rejected twice), Arcanine (rejected twice), Honchkrow, Torterra

Widely Acceptable NFE's:
-Magmar, Electabuzz, Trapinch, Poliwhirl, Clamperl, Vigoroth, Pikachu, Scyther

Non-obvious Banned NFEs (AKA, BL):
Snover, Hippopatas

One question, are people still having any doubts about Jynx or can we now remove it from the list? Also let me know if I've missed anything out.

 

[Mystica]

I've been using Jynx and I've seen some others use it as well. At first it seems overpowered but after using it I've seen it's pretty easily countered. Lovely Kiss's accuracy isn't that great and Ice Beam is walled by water pokemon. Havn't seen/used IB and Psychic on the same set though so I'm not sure how that'll turn out. I really think people should start using Jynx more for further testing.

I agree with Maniac Clefable is definitely an annoying top teir UU but that's no reason to banish it to BL. Even though I hate the bitch I don't think it should still be UU lol.

I'm against allowing Miltank in UU. That cow is ridicuously overpowered for the UU environment. On the top of my head I can't think of anything that counters it w/out getting slammed by a Cursed HammerArm/Bodyslam. Miltank can even cause lots of trouble in OU, its very hard to take down and will kill many UU pokemon in the process.

After reading evolutia's arguemnt I also recommend Espeon to be tested in UU. Not only because I adore the feline but I don't think it'll be that much of a threat. We already have Glaceon who's specsset is pretty similar to Espeons. We have Ninetails and Manetric, and other calm minders too so what's the big deal?

 

[Buckles]

The difference between Espeon and other UU special sweepers is that Espeon has a base 110 Speed stat which, when maxed out with Timid, outspeeds virtually every other poke in the UU environment, barring stuff like Persian and Electrode. Not to mention that 130 base Sp. Atk. stat which, even without EVs invested, will crush a lot of pokes with STAB Psychic, let alone after CM. Sure Glaceon has the same Sp. Atk., but at least we have stuff like Ninetales and Manectric who can outspeed it and kill with Flamethrower.

 

[ODDish]

One question, are people still having any doubts about Jynx or can we now remove it from the list?

I'm having considerable doubts about far more Jynx, but as they've already been implemented I'm resigned to letting them stand.

I am however strongly opposed to any of the current recommendations being moved down until we have some sort of ladder system in place, which will stand us in a better position for analysing their impact upon the "UU metagame" - whatever that actually is, given its increasingly fragmented status.

 

[gengod]

I'm against allowing Miltank in UU. That cow is ridicuously overpowered for the UU environment. On the top of my head I can't think of anything that counters it w/out getting slammed by a Cursed HammerArm/Bodyslam. Miltank can even cause lots of trouble in OU, its very hard to take down and will kill many UU pokemon in the process.

Actually, quite a few pokemon in UU are able to switch into Miltank and counter it or at least force it to switch out. Miltank's attack isn't exactly stellar. Unless Miltank gets 2-3 Curses under it's belt its not that much of a threat to UU. Miltanks that are built for using Curse are normally EV'd defensively and don't normally run attack Evs, therefore after one Curse Miltank only has about 294 Attack which is still considerably less than things like Scyther, Leafeon , Hitmonchan ....etc.

Even after 2 Curses you only get 392 attack which is only slightly higher than things like Armaldo and Hitmonlee and actually still lower than Absols or Kinglers. Each of these pokemon have counters despite their high attack and it should also be noted that all of these pokemon can actually boost their attack power at least as fast as Miltank through Bulk Up or even faster with Swords Dance.

After reading evolutia's arguemnt I also recommend Espeon to be tested in UU. Not only because I adore the feline but I don't think it'll be that much of a threat. We already have Glaceon who's specsset is pretty similar to Espeons. We have Ninetails and Manetric, and other calm minders too so what's the big deal?

Espeon is only similar to Glaceon in terms of a Specs Set however you have to remember that Espeon has base 110 Speed to actually back up that base 130 Special attack unlike Glaceon's mediocre base 65. It also gets better type coverage from it's moves in comparison to Glaceon who has to use Sleep Talk on every Choice set simply because it has nothing better to take advantage of it's 4th moveslot.

As for Ninetales and Manetric they are hardly worth comparing to Espeon. People complain so often about Ninetales and it's lack of counters in UU. Espeon would be significantly worse. After one Calm Mind Espeon actually has higer Special Attack than a Nasty Plotted Ninetales and has a better movepool to use along with 10 more base speed which makes quite a significant difference in UU.

Manetric is even worse as it is slower, has much lower Special Attack with no way to boost it, no means of recovery and even with all of this Manetric is a top tier UU. Espeon would simply make most Special Attackers obselete in comparison, nothing in UU barring Scarfers or Thunder Wave users would be capable of stopping it. Espeon really is way too much for UU to handle.

BL's with recommendations for movedown to UU or to be Tested.
(presented in terms of levels of opposition)

- Marowak (Average)

Also it hasn't been mentioned for a while but i would like to add that I am strongly opposed to allowing Marowak in UU. Nothing can take it on as it 2HKOs everything in UU with the boost from Thick Club. Sure it may be slow but it really does put holes into a team everytime it comes in and it is defensive enough that it can take a hit or two before going down. Marowak should remain BL in my opnion.

 

[stvn]

I would like to suggest Kabutops to move up actually. I was running some calcs and discovered that the only true counter is Quagsire.

a SD Life Orb ohkos max/max positive Blastoise with Stealth Rock and has a high probability of doing that with a max/max positive Leafeon too with X-Scissors
Poliwrath, another supposed counter, is 2HKOed by the same SD+LO boosted Stone Edge (using 252 HP) and its Brick Break fails kill it.

If Kabutops has Rain Support, not even Scarf users can outspeed it, not to mention that its Waterfall will kill anything not immune...
I found me having to use Quagsire/Poliwrath a lot when building teams just to handle him, and I think that's not good...
So I would like to hear your opinions about that

 

[Luphrous]

Kabutops: Not sure to be honest, I've not come across many, and I'm pretty sure none have been of the SD Life Orb variant. Those calcs do look scary though...
Miltank: Torn on this one, I'm personally not so sure I'd like to see it UU, but at the same time there are some good arguments to bring it down.
Espeon: Unlike Miltank, this one is easy for me. Definitely should stay out of UU, its Speed and Sp. Attack stats are simply too high, and having Calm Mind to boost it even more is of no help.

I also agree with ODDish, a ladder will help us see their impact much easier. I think it'd be for the best if things just stayed the way they are until we have a ladder.

 

[Mystica]

Actually, quite a few pokemon in UU are able to switch into Miltank and counter it or at least force it to switch out. Miltank's attack isn't exactly stellar. Unless Miltank gets 2-3 Curses under it's belt its not that much of a threat to UU. Miltanks that are built for using Curse are normally EV'd defensively and don't normally run attack Evs, therefore after one Curse Miltank only has about 294 Attack which is still considerably less than things like Scyther, Leafeon , Hitmonchan ....etc.

Well yeah it might have less attacking power but it will have great defenses that'll be hard to counter. That's the only problem.

And I see what you mean about Espeon. Though the only reason why it's BL is because of it's speed...

edit: Kabutops? Never in a million years that'l be UU.

 

[gengod]

Well yeah it might have less attacking power but it will have great defenses that'll be hard to counter. That's the only problem.

It will have good "Physical" defense but it's Special defense is as i have said only mediocre and it will either have type coverage or status problems depending on which Curse set it runs.

edit: Kabutops? Never in a million years that'l be UU.

Kabutops has been UU from the start of D/P. ._.

 

[umbarsc]

One Pokemon that i'm wondering about, I don't think it's been discussed (correct me if I'm wrong), is Ludicolo. I don't really think that it would be overpowering at all in UU. It's special attack is a low 90, which is rather "eh", even in UU. The Rain Dance sweeper could be deadly, but then again Omastar does it arguably more dangerously (the only advantage it has is grass STAB, which only helps againt Lanturn).

I don't think it's had testing in UU, and I'm not seeing enough concrete evidence that it's BL without any testing at all.

 

[rkatzam]

eh? since when are Magmar and Electabuzz allowed in UU play?

Ludicolo already rips in OU. In UU it will be even more deadly without walls like Blissey to wall it.

 

[Luphrous]

I think Ludicolo is a little too strong for UU. That Grass STAB is actually what makes is so dangerous, quite a few Sp. Walls in UU are water types that have Water Absorb. Life Orb Energy Ball against: Politoed takes 55.73% - 65.63% Lapras takes 47.84% - 56.25%. Lanturn takes 55.95% - 65.64%. Mantine takes Endergy Ball just fine, but takes 59.88% - 70.36% from HP Elec. Lapras is the only one out of those four not 2hko'ed, but SR turns that into an easy 2hko..Note Ludicolo is Modest, and all four pokes are running max HP/Sp. Def with boosting natures.

Considering quite a few players probably use one of the above pokes to sponge special hits against RD teams, Ludicolo could easily turn the already powerful Rain Dance team into an even stronger team..