I actually agree with this as well, since in OU, Deoxys-S pretty much did the same thing. It made stall teams more viable but people still used that offensive mindset while making teams, although well built stall teams were still viable! Aerodactyl may not be Deoxys-S, Aerodactyl does the same thing. But since there aren't a ton of powerhouses in UU, as in OU (Lucario, Garchomp, and Deoxys-S being on top!), Stall is becoming much more of a menace!
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DP Tier Discussion - BL and UU (mark 2)
- Thread starter Phuquoph
- Start date
I actually agree with this as well, since in OU, Deoxys-S pretty much did the same thing. It made stall teams more viable but people still used that offensive mindset while making teams, although well built stall teams were still viable! Aerodactyl may not be Deoxys-S, Aerodactyl does the same thing. But since there aren't a ton of powerhouses in UU, as in OU (Lucario, Garchomp, and Deoxys-S being on top!), Stall is becoming much more of a menace!
That is the point Choice Scarf, to be equipped to something and then that Pokemon be used as a revenge killer in general against most Pokemon. You're just proving Aerodactyl is UU material, due to it's frail defenses and the fact that it doesn't kill Choice Scarfs / Revenge Killers in general as Deoxys-S does in OU.
You're contradicting yourself.
On the one hand, you say that stall teams are running far too rampant.
On the other hand, you are saying that Aerodactyl is a positive influence because it keeps offensive teams in check, which strengthens stall.
It is not a contradiction. Aerodactyl by itself strengthens stall because it is the only thing that is of a similar quality offensively to the overall defensive quality of the current metagame. It is easy for a defensive team to keep that one threat in check, and with that pretty much everything else is covered as nothing comes close to that kind of offensive potential. By introducing better offensive Pokemon stall becomes harder. With Rampardos for example you have something that pure stall struggles with but is comfortably kept in check by faster offensive threats, which is something different to Aerodactyl but equally threatening in its own way.
Come again lemmi? We have awesome offensive pokemon in UU. Jynx, Manectric, Swellow, Scyther, Kabutops, Hitmonlee, Primape, Toxicroak, Venomoth . . . we have terrific sweepers in UU. Of course none are without their appropriate counters, but then most OU sweepers have counters as well (sort of, I guess). They just all get out-sped and wiped out by Aerodactyle. Even the defensive pokemon we have now could be dealth with. I'm not saying this was all Aero's fault, but until we brought down Steelix and friends, the problem was definitely too much offensive.
On another note though, defensive pokemon don't have to be as comparitively strong in UU as in OU, mostly because of lack of sand stream. Leftovers on almost everything is big, and really punishes offensive teams for making too many switches.
On another note though, defensive pokemon don't have to be as comparitively strong in UU as in OU, mostly because of lack of sand stream. Leftovers on almost everything is big, and really punishes offensive teams for making too many switches.
Also the fact that several OU walls have access to auto-heal to last longer (and the ones that don't are either offensive threats or must be taken out quickly before they set up their team support), while the vast majority of UU's walls, besides Gastrodon, Clefable (?), Hypno, and Altaria, have to rely on Rest-talking or an ability or something to that effect.
When you take into consideration the type of Pokemon you're mentioning (frail sweepers) what exactly is Aerodactly doing that Swellow already doesn't?
Swellow has counters that will be taking no more than ~20% from any of its attacks at all, and there are many UU Pokemon that fit that description (almost anything Rock or Steel) Aerodactyl's counters, on the other hand, are 3HKOed. This means that if they've taken a bit of damage, Aerodactyl will be knocking them out in two shots.
What does this have to do with my post? I asked in the context of the type of Pokemon he listed how Aerodactly even differs from Swellow, who more or less accomplishes the same job.
As for your comment about how Aerodactyl 3HKOes it's counters you should realise that this comment holds true for just about every sweeper, regardless of tier. Do you think you're going to get a counter to every Pokemon that is 4-5HKOed by any move said Pokemon it is trying to counter uses while having a 50% recovery move......
The difference between Aero and Swellow is that if you have 2 pokes on your team that can stall out Swellow, you're in the clear because of Poison/Burn. Aero's base attack is higher so he can use a different item, he takes less damage per turn than Swellow, has better defenses and his coverage is way better.
Standard Swellow options: Facade, U-Turn, Brave Bird, Pursuit, Quick Attack.
Aero's options: EQ, SE, all the fangs, Crunch, Double-Edge (no recoil), Fire Blast for Steelix and the ability to use Life Orb.
In other words, you need one or more very specialised Aero counter, whereas your standard physical wall with self-healing stops Swellow everytime.
Standard Swellow options: Facade, U-Turn, Brave Bird, Pursuit, Quick Attack.
Aero's options: EQ, SE, all the fangs, Crunch, Double-Edge (no recoil), Fire Blast for Steelix and the ability to use Life Orb.
In other words, you need one or more very specialised Aero counter, whereas your standard physical wall with self-healing stops Swellow everytime.
I'm just going to say nevermind my question since you clearly don't understand i'm not asking for Swellow or Aerodactyl counters.
Also the fact that Aerodactyl has higher base attack doesn't mean much as a Jolly Swellow's Facade does more than an Adamant Choice Banded Aerodactyl's Stone Edge to any Pokemon they both hit neutral. And Aerodactyl needs specialized counters more so than Swellow does? I hope you realise that Swellow limits teams more so than Aerodactyl does as it is basically a requirement for every team to carry a Rock or Steel type i.e specialized counters.... (that have invested in some Defense EVs) to stop Swellow.
To add onto what Maniclyrasist says, what major offensive threat doesn't require specialized counters? Isn't this true in any tier? You either have to have specialized counters or you have to have a way to revenge kill a major threat with something faster that can take it out. Isn't this the way this game is played? I mean, very few things can switch into Glaceon's Ice Beam right? You either have to have a very bulky water (water/grounds like Gastrodon/Quagsire don't do as well either unless you invest a shit load in special defense) to take the Ice Beam or you have to have something faster to take it out. Yet, I don't hear complaints about Glaceon. I'm all for having this debate but all of us, including myself, have to be consistent when talking about it.
Just as a side note, I was originally undecided about Aero but after adjusting to it over the coming weeks I don't really have a problem with it (although that Curse-White Herb set is annoying) anymore. Metagames take time to adjust to a new Pokemon being introduced and I thought a lot of us had adapted, but I guess not.
Just as a side note, I was originally undecided about Aero but after adjusting to it over the coming weeks I don't really have a problem with it (although that Curse-White Herb set is annoying) anymore. Metagames take time to adjust to a new Pokemon being introduced and I thought a lot of us had adapted, but I guess not.
If we are comparing Aerodactyl and Glaceon, Aerodactyl has a better movepool, much higher speed, and better typing. A Pokemon's strength is not solely determined by how easily it can be countered, there are other factors that come into play.
Also Aerodactyl is better than Swellow due to movepool. Throwing just about any Rock or Steel type on your team shuts down Swellow completely, there is no Pokemon that stops Aerodactyl as efficiently. It will 2HKO just about anyhting in UU at 80% or less.
Also Aerodactyl is better than Swellow due to movepool. Throwing just about any Rock or Steel type on your team shuts down Swellow completely, there is no Pokemon that stops Aerodactyl as efficiently. It will 2HKO just about anyhting in UU at 80% or less.
Whilst this is all true, I think he was asking how Aero is any bigger a menace to all-out offensive teams (i.e. teams of fast, frail sweepers) than Swellow is? In that respect I guess the wider coverage helps to some extent, although there isn't really anything from that particular criteria that can stand up to either one besides Electrode who isn't much of a sweeper.
There are some alternative offensive threats such as Kabutops and Relicanth that can take on Swellow somewhat, but then again they fare pretty well against Aero too with priority and bulk respectively. One thing that can undoubtedly be said about Aero is that it has taken Swellow's place as the number one fast sweeper in UU.
I can't say I agree with you there, as fitting a Rock or Steel type on your team isn't exactly overspecializing given that most teams would like to have some kind of Normal resist and Swellow isn't the only Pokemon that is a threat with such moves. There are also a few Ghosts such as Rotom and Drifblim that can deal with it reasonably well. As for Aero, Gastrodon is pretty much the only specialized counter there is, and not everybody uses Gastrodon, so it is clear that there are more ways to deal with such Pokemon than utilizing specialized counters.
This is more or less being overspecialized in my eyes as only a Rock or Steel type is really going to stop Swellow, which in turn means they are a requirement on UU teams if you wish to avoid being raped by Swellow. At least with Aerodactyl I can say I want to use Gastrodon or Meganium or Claydol to help stop it. You're allowed way more options in trying to deal with Aerodactyl than you are with trying to deal with Swellow.
What you said about most teams would like to have a Normal resist hold true for just about every type for whatever reason. I wish my teams could have a resist for every type lol. Wanting a Normal resist isn't really anything special.
And there are what, 15 to 20 viable Rock or Steel types in UU? Put any one of them on your team and Swellow is automatically much less of an issue for your team. Try the same logic with Aerodactyl (put a Ground type on my team to resist Stone Edge) and the situation is not as clear cut. Any less orthodox way of dealing with Aero such as revenge-killing can be applied to Swellow too. Swellow's only advantage is access to a priority attack of its own to deal (somewhat) with other priority users. Therefore I fail to see how Swellow is more limiting than Aerodactyl.
Okay, let us see how hard it is to resist every type with a single team:
Steelix, Venusaur, Aerodactyl, Miltank... wait, that's it! And the last one was only tacked on there for the Ice resist. If you're paranoid about Tinted Lens Venomoth's Bug Buzz then simply add Drifblim to that too, and you still have one slot to spare. Not that you should build teams with that mentality, but it is certainly far from impossible to construct a team that resists every type. No fewer than three Normal resists there btw.
How does Swellow make offense obselete when you can just run off to your surefire counter every time? If you have only one counter for Aerodactyl and nothing else that outspeeds it (if you're not packing a fast scarfer), as much as I would hate to generalize, you will lose.
Aerodactyl is the only Pokemon with blazing speed AND can 3HKO the metagame. This is extremely relevant, because it will usually beat all-out offensive teams, and you need a quite bulky team to beat it (it's hard to beat it down with extreme offenses, unlike, say, CB Aggron), which really just encourages the metagame to shift into a slower, more stallish one.
After doing a quick calculation on the August statistics, I have found that either 47 or 48 Pokemon form 75% of the UU usage statistics depending on whether it is rounded up or down:
Total Usages = 201804
Top 47 = 150456 (74.556% of total)
Top 48 = 151894 (75.268% of total)
It was only 39 Pokemon last month, so this seems to refute all the speculation that UU would become more centralized with the new additions. Take this with a pinch of salt though as it was only a rough calculation and I may have made some mistakes.
Total Usages = 201804
Top 47 = 150456 (74.556% of total)
Top 48 = 151894 (75.268% of total)
It was only 39 Pokemon last month, so this seems to refute all the speculation that UU would become more centralized with the new additions. Take this with a pinch of salt though as it was only a rough calculation and I may have made some mistakes.
Well I guess the Aerodactyl debate is rather obsolete now, since it is now OU at least on the Suspect test ladder and possibly Standard as well. Pokemon can't be OU and UU at the same time (see Tentacruel) so I guess it's out.
As for the rest of the new additons, Shedinja and Articuno have such relatively low usages that calling them overcentralizing would be rather silly. Miltank isn't really that high either, and from what I've heard most people do not have huge complaints against it. So that leaves Weezing and Venasaur, which are both debtatable.
As for the rest of the new additons, Shedinja and Articuno have such relatively low usages that calling them overcentralizing would be rather silly. Miltank isn't really that high either, and from what I've heard most people do not have huge complaints against it. So that leaves Weezing and Venasaur, which are both debtatable.
I disagree that is makes the Aerodactyl debate obsolete even if it becomes UU. I believe possible future UUs (ones we suspect may fall into that BL category later in the metagame) should be addressed before we have to deal with the mess later. That's why I believe that things like Spiritomb, Gallade, and Roserade should be tested in this future BL/UU testing bit since they were at one time BL and have fluxed between the two so it seems logical to address it now.
Anyway, this isn't my thread so I can't lead the discussion but it seems it has turned into an Aerodactyl discussion rather than a BL/UU discussion. However, with a month (I think right? close enough) of play and some stats out from Doug I thought some of us could discuss some of the other BLs that were introduced. The ones that were introduced were Aerodactyl, Articuno, Miltank, Shedinja, Venusaur, and Weezing. I think after this month some of these concerns have been settled (obviously they can be readdressed should some game breaking new set is discovered or strategy, as in the case of Duel-Screen Deoxys-S that brought it's status back to being questionable). However, I can only speak for myself so I thought it would be interesting to get feedback from the rest of you on these. I personally believe that Miltank, Shedinja, Articuno, and (especially) Weezing have proven that they are fine in this tier. Miltank is a great support Pokemon with Heal Bell, Stealth Rock, and can sweep with Curse etc. but it's not game breaking I'd say. Shedinja is, well, Shedinja. It's not a question of being able to beat it, it's question of can your opponent eliminate the threats to it before showing off Shedinja. This is true of any tier so I see it as a non-issue. Articuno, crippling SR weak makes it hard for this to switch in especially since Rotom is on a lot of teams and can block Rapid Spin from such common spinners as Claydol and Blastoise relatively safely. I think Weezing was over hyped by all of us. Many of us proclaimed it would end fighting type domination but it appears it hasn't. Weezing is a good wall, and quite popular this month, but I don't think it's upset the metagame too badly.
Does anyone else agree that after this "testing" stage that Weezing, Shedinja, Articuno, and Miltank aren't really issues anymore? Some thoughts on Shedinja would be particularly interesting.
Obviously Aerodactyl is still in the gray zone and I'd even consider Venusaur to be in the same boat, although less so. We've heard these issues against both of them so I won't recap (although I'm still largely undecided but leaning towards UU on Aerodactyl I don't have too much of a problem with Venusaur myself).
So, does my assessment seem (generally speaking) in agreement with everyone else here? I feel like there are other Pokes besides Aerodactyl that deserve some discussion at this time.
Anyway, this isn't my thread so I can't lead the discussion but it seems it has turned into an Aerodactyl discussion rather than a BL/UU discussion. However, with a month (I think right? close enough) of play and some stats out from Doug I thought some of us could discuss some of the other BLs that were introduced. The ones that were introduced were Aerodactyl, Articuno, Miltank, Shedinja, Venusaur, and Weezing. I think after this month some of these concerns have been settled (obviously they can be readdressed should some game breaking new set is discovered or strategy, as in the case of Duel-Screen Deoxys-S that brought it's status back to being questionable). However, I can only speak for myself so I thought it would be interesting to get feedback from the rest of you on these. I personally believe that Miltank, Shedinja, Articuno, and (especially) Weezing have proven that they are fine in this tier. Miltank is a great support Pokemon with Heal Bell, Stealth Rock, and can sweep with Curse etc. but it's not game breaking I'd say. Shedinja is, well, Shedinja. It's not a question of being able to beat it, it's question of can your opponent eliminate the threats to it before showing off Shedinja. This is true of any tier so I see it as a non-issue. Articuno, crippling SR weak makes it hard for this to switch in especially since Rotom is on a lot of teams and can block Rapid Spin from such common spinners as Claydol and Blastoise relatively safely. I think Weezing was over hyped by all of us. Many of us proclaimed it would end fighting type domination but it appears it hasn't. Weezing is a good wall, and quite popular this month, but I don't think it's upset the metagame too badly.
Does anyone else agree that after this "testing" stage that Weezing, Shedinja, Articuno, and Miltank aren't really issues anymore? Some thoughts on Shedinja would be particularly interesting.
Obviously Aerodactyl is still in the gray zone and I'd even consider Venusaur to be in the same boat, although less so. We've heard these issues against both of them so I won't recap (although I'm still largely undecided but leaning towards UU on Aerodactyl I don't have too much of a problem with Venusaur myself).
So, does my assessment seem (generally speaking) in agreement with everyone else here? I feel like there are other Pokes besides Aerodactyl that deserve some discussion at this time.
I also agree with Caelum in that we should be testing other pokemon as this is the BL and UU tier discussion thread. I've fought some Articunos and I agree that they can be a formidable opponent with Light Screen set up. As for Weezing, Shedinja, and Miltank I haven't fought too many of them as of late but I don't think I'd have a problem with fighting Shedinja, but Miltank and Weezing maybe a little trouble as they have decent support moves that they can use on themselves such as stated before Heal Bell for Miltank and for Weezing, Pain Split. As for Aerodactyl and Venusaur, I believe that they should stay in UU as they have specific counters to them such as an Electrode with Focus Sash for Aerodactyl leads as the Aerodactyl hits Electrode with whatever move it's carrying and Electrode survives hits with either Thunderbolt or Explosion to knock out Aerodactyl. But then there's the Focus Sash version that can be annoying to take down but Electrode again should have no trouble in taking it down as its' Thunderbolt fails to OHKO but that negates Aerodactyls' Focus Sash and Electrode is able to KO it next turn. Venusaur is pretty formidable in UU but look at Cacturne with Focus Sash and Counter, it has both above 100 stats in both attack stats and manages to still KO opponents with its' move Counter while surviving with FS and destroying the opponent with Counter and it still manages to get some more free damage with Sucker Punch before going down. So in the end I do agree with Caelum that we need to look at the other UU and BL pokes that are possibly more formidable than Venusaur and Aerodactyl.
Its depends ...
If there is a chance of an "NU" (or equivalent) tier being established in the next few weeks then in all honesty you can do what you like with "UU" (although personally I think it needs a name change).
If however this is to remain the lowest tier of play then I'm afraid I would have to disagree, as despite observations that the new additions have not really proved over balancing, I would suggest that those have come from players who have generally only considered the top level UU pokemon and not the tier as a whole.
I have no idea whether or not NU is going to ever be developed in the future but I'd imagine that getting a well built UU base would be the start of developing that tier anyway.
But unfortunately the current method of developing this well built "UU" leaves a significant number of pokemon essentially useless (or at least severely outclassed), which is my biggest problem with the current system of testing and adding more BL pokemon will do little to help with this.