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DP Tier Discussion Thread - BL and UU

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This topic kind of confuzzles me, as I thought tiers were determined by usage...whatever. Anyway, I think Toxicroak should be moved up to BL... it's very unpredictable and has great offense. I used this Toxicroak which wrecked quite a bit of havoc:

Toxicroak @ Leftovers
Dry Skin
Modest/Rash
4 HP
252 SA
252 Spd

Nasty Plot
Focus Blast
Hidden Power Flying
Sucker Punch

Dry Skin is great for absorbing water moves and compliments Rain Dance fairly well. Sucker Punch is great for stopping sweepers and taking out Gengars/Starmies (though I don't think it's a OHKO), and a Focus Blast after a Nasty Plot does around 78% to Blissey. It's nice to be able to switch on Machamp or Heracross and HP Fly them to death.

Of course, there's many other variations, such as Sub/FPunch/SPunch, Swords Dance versions, Choice Band versions...

I must agree there. Toxicroak has such viable sets, and has got an above average attack stat + SD to help it along. Coupled with the fact that it can learn Cross Chop and has the Dry Skin ability, it makes for a really worthwhile Pokémon in whichever tier you play it in.

Also, another few I think are viable enough for BL play are the Hitmons.

I have never worked out why they aren't included in the BL tier.

Lets take a look at Hitmontop first.

I'll be using the Technician set for my example -

Hitmontop@Life Orb (Life Orb gives a 30% increase, as i'm sure you know.)
Adamant (+Attack, -SpAtk) - 252 HP/252 Atk/4 Spd
Fake Out - I can't remember the power, does it get an increase by Technician?
Mach Punch - 40 Power, first turn move, 80% increase. 72 Power in the end. Thats great. Along with first turn move....
Close Combat - meh. Power.
Bullet Punch - Another first turn move, and will have the same power as Mach Punch in the end.

So, IMO, its really quite viable.

I'll post the others a bit later.
 
I dunno. There is more than enough counters for Toxicroak and Hitmontop IMO. That aldaron Hitmontop isn't getting past Xatu or Claydol anytime soon. Psychic 2HKOs.

As for Toxicroak, take advantage of it's low speed. Also, all it has for hitting ghosts that aren't directly attacking is Stone Edge or EQ; Banette or Rotom can status it, or trick scarf/specs onto him, crippling it forever. Quagsire and Sandslash are 100% counters.

The special set looks harder to wall, mostly because the special walls in UU tend to suck somewhat. However, again, Claydol looks to be a very good counter to it, only fearing a 0 atk - nature Sucker Punch.
 
eh, toxicroak has base 85 speed, that's not too low... but I think it is fair in UU.

Hypno walls any special variety to no end...
 
Can someone please explain why Scyther is UU? It's Pinsir+ in my eyes. Swords Dance variations are just about impossible to wall and just about impossible to revenge-kill. Swords Dance/Quick Attack/Aerial Ace/Brick Break is what I run, the only possible counters to it really are Claydol, Solrock, and Rotom, from what I've seen, and most potential counters are ran over if you run X-Scissor over Aerial Ace. It's also hard to revenge-kill because Technician Quick Attacks OHKO most frail sweepers like Swellow that come in after a KO.

I don't have any logs, but Scyther sets up very easily on Meganium, seeing as how it usually runs Energy Ball/Leech Seed/support/support. It also scares off vulnerable Pokemon when you sacrifice something to bring it in, and Swords Dance on the switch. I've made several 5-2 comebacks with one Swords Dance and from there OHKOing everything.

A lot of this looks like pointless "I use it to defeat my opponents it's too strong!" but I really think that Scyther is worth banning.
 
Can someone please explain why Scyther is UU? It's Pinsir+ in my eyes. Swords Dance variations are just about impossible to wall and just about impossible to revenge-kill. Swords Dance/Quick Attack/Aerial Ace/Brick Break is what I run, the only possible counters to it really are Claydol, Solrock, and Rotom, from what I've seen, and most potential counters are ran over if you run X-Scissor over Aerial Ace. It's also hard to revenge-kill because Technician Quick Attacks OHKO most frail sweepers like Swellow that come in after a KO.

I don't have any logs, but Scyther sets up very easily on Meganium, seeing as how it usually runs Energy Ball/Leech Seed/support/support. It also scares off vulnerable Pokemon when you sacrifice something to bring it in, and Swords Dance on the switch. I've made several 5-2 comebacks with one Swords Dance and from there OHKOing everything.

A lot of this looks like pointless "I use it to defeat my opponents it's too strong!" but I really think that Scyther is worth banning.

Well, Scyther is pretty much totally walled by Quagsire and Sandslash, seeing as how LO SD Aerial Ace does 60% or so and they OHKO back with Stone Edge. However, I do see where you're going with this. Do note that Scyther takes 50% switching on SR, so it can't come in repeatedly.
 
Well, Scyther is pretty much totally walled by Quagsire and Sandslash, seeing as how LO SD Aerial Ace does 60% or so and they OHKO back with Stone Edge.

Torkoal also makes an excellent counter.

I don't have any logs, but Scyther sets up very easily on Meganium, seeing as how it usually runs Energy Ball/Leech Seed/support/support.

I'm afraid I'm of the opinion that if your opponent is running this Meganium set, they deserve to be set up on, although to be perfectly honest Scyther is not the only threat able to explot this set. I've said repeatedly that without HP Meganium is generally more of a liability, but no one listens ...
 
It doesn't matter ... BL is a faux tier intended as a dumping ground for things too powerful for UU , but not used enought to qualify as OU.

It's not supposed to be a balanced environment.
 
I really don't like how we have 76 pages of discussion, but no action... I see a ton of people want Pinsir and Scyther BL; why don't we start with that?
 
I believe Flygon was OU before Garchomp came around and really dethroned him... needless to say if a pokemon was OU the previous gen. and was knocked down to BL status thanks to another pokemon outshining it, it is still far too powerful for the UU tier.
 
I really don't like how we have 76 pages of discussion, but no action... I see a ton of people want Pinsir and Scyther BL; why don't we start with that?

See post #1784 (pg 72), and the following few responses ...

Well, since my knowledge is rather limited on this subject, would something like Flygon be too overpowered for UU?

Flygon was discussed back at post #1534 (pg 62.) although it was felt at that time that it was too strong ... however perhaps the situation needs readressing as Claydol is prevalent throughout the UU environment, and there are a number of bulky waters that look like they might be able to handle it.
 
I believe Flygon was OU before Garchomp came around and really dethroned him... needless to say if a pokemon was OU the previous gen. and was knocked down to BL status thanks to another pokemon outshining it, it is still far too powerful for the UU tier.
That says absolute nothing, Tentacruel was UU last gen and went straight to OU this gen. Nuff said.
 
I would like to make a few cases, if you don't mind. Since I've been doing a fair share of UU lately, I thought of the following things.

- Entei. Looking at his useage, one can only weep for the poor beast. But in UU, I think he would fit. Look at what he can do there. He can stop Ninetales (Quite reliably, although Entei is hard pressed to mount a serious offense on the fox) and can be a general bulky attacker. However, stuff like Quagsire/Blastoise/Mantine/Gastrodon/Sandslash/Kabutops/You name it can all bring Entei to a screeching halt, depending on which HP he uses. And with Entei's not too great offenses, even then they might stop him if he has the appropriate HP. As long as Entei has no access to Flare Blitz, I say he can be UU.
- Armaldo. When comparing him to RSE, he gained Rock Polish, X-Scizzor, Stone Edge. That's 3/4th of the movepool I have him using, and he is a menace. How did he get downgraded from BL to UU despite all these new toys?
- Scyther and Pinsir, as many people already explained.
- To add to the Flygon thing. I think that due to the lack of GOOD steels in UU (Yeah, there is Aggron and Probopass but...), his Draco Meteor coming from 10 more SP ATK as Altaria's might prove to be too powerful, especially since he can combine it with Earth Power. On the physical side, he can go Earthquake-Dragon Claw, with 100 ATK and 100 Speed. With no need for a Fire move due to lack of Skarmory/Bronzong, I would say that Flygon is too powerful for UU, particulary considering his access to U-Turn, meaning that stuff like Hypno can't come in and lol at him either. Flygon is still good in OU, despite Garchomp stealing his thunder.
- Zangoose. As cool as Zangoose is, I think he is a bit out of place in BL. Yes, he has a nice attack stat and decent speed, but with stuff like Primeape and the Hitmons running around, and the defensive Steels raining on his parade, I don't really see Zangoose overpowering UU anytime soon. There's also competition as Normal Attacker from the likes of Persian, Kangaskhan, Swellow and several others. Zangoose would be used in UU, maybe in the top ranks of it too, but I'd say he's a bit too frail to stay above UU.
- Clefable. I might be missing something here, but Clefable's unpredictability combined with its refusal to die to anything not named Close Combat seems to make Clefable a candidate to be promoted to BL status. I know that in the end, Clefable's stats seem subpar, but its so easy to EV her into a defensive MONSTER that also packs a certain punch, it just seems a bit off to me to leave it in UU. This is however prolly the poke in this list of mine that I'm least certain on.

These are my 5 pennies on the subject...
 
That says absolute nothing, Tentacruel was UU last gen and went straight to OU this gen. Nuff said.

Hmmm because Tentacruel gained enough usage to become OU...

However if it lost usage it is not too powerful for BL and would be moved down. OU is based on usage

BL is based on power/usage

Flygon was OU, but lost usage becoming BL.... it is still too powerful for UU.

Tentacruel was UU, but gained usage and became OVER USED.... it did not magically become more powerful and thus would still be allowed in UU if it lost a lot of usage.
 
- Entei. Looking at his useage, one can only weep for the poor beast. But in UU, I think he would fit. Look at what he can do there. He can stop Ninetales (Quite reliably, although Entei is hard pressed to mount a serious offense on the fox) and can be a general bulky attacker.

Entei gained Stone Edge in D/P, which I would consider a serious offensive threat to Ninetales.

However, stuff like Quagsire/Blastoise/Mantine/Gastrodon/Sandslash/Kabutops/You name it can all bring Entei to a screeching halt

All of those except Mantine are badly hurt by HP Grass, and Mantine is demolished by Stone Edge. Lol at Sandslash who is picked off by a Calm Mind Flamethrower/Fire Blast.

And with Entei's not too great offenses, even then they might stop him if he has the appropriate HP.

How can 115 base Attack and 90 base special attack that can be boosted by CM on top of 100 base speed be considered 'not too great offenses?'

- Armaldo. When comparing him to RSE, he gained Rock Polish, X-Scizzor, Stone Edge. That's 3/4th of the movepool I have him using, and he is a menace. How did he get downgraded from BL to UU despite all these new toys?

To be honest I never knew Armaldo was ever BL to begin with, however I've never had big problems facing it. Stealth Rock weakness hurts a lot, whilst the Rock Polish set requires sacrificing a lot of bulk in order to be effective, and is still comfortably walled and killed by bulky waters such as Quagsire and Gastrodon.

- Scyther and Pinsir, as many people already explained.
- To add to the Flygon thing. I think that due to the lack of GOOD steels in UU (Yeah, there is Aggron and Probopass but...), his Draco Meteor coming from 10 more SP ATK as Altaria's might prove to be too powerful, especially since he can combine it with Earth Power. On the physical side, he can go Earthquake-Dragon Claw, with 100 ATK and 100 Speed. With no need for a Fire move due to lack of Skarmory/Bronzong, I would say that Flygon is too powerful for UU, particulary considering his access to U-Turn, meaning that stuff like Hypno can't come in and lol at him either. Flygon is still good in OU, despite Garchomp stealing his thunder.

Agreeing with all of this. Although Scyther can be contained by some Pokemon, its Baton Passing ability allows the recipient to take advantage of the counter and have +2 attack, leaving the opponent in a potentially tight spot.

- Zangoose. As cool as Zangoose is, I think he is a bit out of place in BL. Yes, he has a nice attack stat and decent speed, but with stuff like Primeape and the Hitmons running around, and the defensive Steels raining on his parade, I don't really see Zangoose overpowering UU anytime soon. There's also competition as Normal Attacker from the likes of Persian, Kangaskhan, Swellow and several others. Zangoose would be used in UU, maybe in the top ranks of it too, but I'd say he's a bit too frail to stay above UU.

Personally I'm neutral on Zangoose, mainly because I've never had chance to try it out. However if Pinsir with its greater attack, bulk, move power and similar speed is considered UU worthy I fail to see how Zangoose isn't also. That doesn't say much though as I'm 100% against Pinsir in UU anyway.

- Clefable. I might be missing something here, but Clefable's unpredictability combined with its refusal to die to anything not named Close Combat seems to make Clefable a candidate to be promoted to BL status. I know that in the end, Clefable's stats seem subpar, but its so easy to EV her into a defensive MONSTER that also packs a certain punch, it just seems a bit off to me to leave it in UU. This is however prolly the poke in this list of mine that I'm least certain on.

I personally would love to see it removed from UU for reasons you have already stated, although the grounds for banishment in this particular case are a bit more complicated than in others due to Clefable's uniqueness.
 
- Entei. Looking at his useage, one can only weep for the poor beast. But in UU, I think he would fit. Look at what he can do there. He can stop Ninetales (Quite reliably, although Entei is hard pressed to mount a serious offense on the fox)
I would consider Stone Edge being a "serious" threat to Ninetales.

However, stuff like Quagsire/Blastoise/Mantine/Gastrodon/Sandslash/Kabutops/You name it can all bring Entei to a screeching halt, depending on which HP he uses. And with Entei's not too great offenses, even then they might stop him if he has the appropriate HP. As long as Entei has no access to Flare Blitz, I say he can be UU.
Quagsire/Gastrodon/Kabutops are defeated with Hidden Power Grass. Sandslash can be killed off with flamethrower. Mantine is slaughtered by Stone Edge. Blastoise is the only pokemon you mentioned that may stand a chance against Entei.

- Armaldo. When comparing him to RSE, he gained Rock Polish, X-Scizzor, Stone Edge. That's 3/4th of the movepool I have him using, and he is a menace. How did he get downgraded from BL to UU despite all these new toys?
Gastrodon/Quagsire can come in rather easily and attack with a STAB Surf. It's weak to Stealth Rock.

- Zangoose. As cool as Zangoose is, I think he is a bit out of place in BL. Yes, he has a nice attack stat and decent speed, but with stuff like Primeape and the Hitmons running around, and the defensive Steels raining on his parade, I don't really see Zangoose overpowering UU anytime soon. There's also competition as Normal Attacker from the likes of Persian, Kangaskhan, Swellow and several others. Zangoose would be used in UU, maybe in the top ranks of it too, but I'd say he's a bit too frail to stay above UU.
Fighting type pokemon really can't switch in on it due the the majority of them being weak defensively. The so called "defensive Steels" are defeated by close combat. Any ghost that tries to come in on it has to be weary of being slashed in the face by Shadow Claw.

It outclasses many Normal type pokemon in the sweeping department due to it having access to Swords Dance.

Though if Pinsir is still going to be allowed in UU; Zangoose would fit right in.

- Clefable. I might be missing something here, but Clefable's unpredictability combined with its refusal to die to anything not named Close Combat seems to make Clefable a candidate to be promoted to BL status. I know that in the end, Clefable's stats seem subpar, but its so easy to EV her into a defensive MONSTER that also packs a certain punch, it just seems a bit off to me to leave it in UU. This is however prolly the poke in this list of mine that I'm least certain on.
I have a few questions to those who play D/P UU. When preparing a UU team do you have to go out of your way to make sure Clefable is countered? Are it's defensives so great that "Close Combat" is the only thing that can take it down? Is is so unpredictable that you are at risk of losing one or more pokemon by just sending it in to try and counter it>

If the answer is yes to all 3 of those then I would support it's banishment. Clefable poses a problem to my teams when my offensive pokemon dies fbut many pokemon in UU pose a problem once that happens. I'd like to hear your opinion/and see examples on this issue.
 
Zangoose would be used in UU, maybe in the top ranks of it too, but I'd say he's a bit too frail to stay above UU.
STAB Quick Attack + Swords Dance + 115 attack + Shadow Claw + Close Combat. You'd be hard pressed to find anything which is fast enough or can even slow that down long enough to not be swept. Only thing which would work is Missmagius who went off to BL after its evolution or a defensive Sableye. Theres always Flail too when you're not worrying about priority moves.

Armaldo. When comparing him to RSE, he gained Rock Polish, X-Scizzor, Stone Edge. That's 3/4th of the movepool I have him using, and he is a menace. How did he get downgraded from BL to UU despite all these new toys?
Stealth Rock weakness, general lack of resistances to switch into, Rock Polish on 45 base speed and it lacks the necessary punch without Swords Dance. Its changes mean relatively little when it had Rock Blast and HP Bug last gen. RB was and still is a perfectly decent move and X-Scissor is only a 10 base powerup, its practically gone unchanged. Armaldo is a bulky tank, not a fast sweeper and using Rock Polish takes away from one of its strengths.

Relicanth and Golem practically does what you're trying to do much better and they're still UU.
 
I remember going through this thread a few months and reading about a Tournament that would help solve a lot of problems on what was and wasn't BL. I don't know if this ever came into fruition, so I was thinking of hosting my own Tournament allowing both BLs and UUs. This Tourament would test:

a) The viability of a BL Metagame.
b) What Pokemon overpower UU.

Obviously, i'll be taking down usage statistics from each team, each round. Hopefully the major contributors to this topic will also get a chance and evidence to finally prove what is and isn't BL.

Sorry if this is off-topic, but i just wanted to know whether anyone would be interested in this? I'm planning for a 32-player single-elimination Tournament, 64-players if there's enough interest.
 
Lol Train Man. Just after I played another great battle with you on the Uber Ladder, I come over to Smogon and see a random post by you at the top of the page. Spooky!

Seriously though, I'm a little confused as to how you intend to achieve both objectives at the same time.

I was thinking of hosting my own Tournament allowing both BLs and UUs. This Tourament would test:

a) The viability of a BL Metagame.
b) What Pokemon overpower UU.

The problem I see here is that it is very difficult to test the second point by these means. How do you determine what overpowers UU if you are throwing all BLs in at once? As I and others have mentioned before in this thread, usefulness in one tier has no bearing on another. You could have perfectly fine UUs performing very well amongst the BL powerhouses due to filling a certain niche, whilst on the other hand you could find a current BL Pokemon completely out of its depth amongst all the other BLs, but that doesn't necessarily mean they don't unbalance UU.

Having said that, I'd love to sign up for some kind of tournament if it was on Shoddy and at a convenient time. I stopped playing UU months ago because of how difficult it was to get matches, so organizing tournaments seems like a sound idea, and may encourage more people to join in until Colin decides to introduce some sort of UU ladder.
 
Well, after PMing Groudon80 and rereading the Tournament Application thread, I can't host the BL/UU Tournament any time soon. The original idea for a Tournament such as this, spawned from Obi's Suggestion of UU.

We could more easily determine the relative strength of BLs to UUs from usage statistics, battle logs and opinions from players competing in the Tournament. Instead of playing Theorymen and having circular arguments, a competitive Tournament could hopefully allow players to gain and access legitimitate evidence as to why a certain pokemon overpowers UU and is fit for BL.

If a pokemon, such as Pinsir, commonly agreed upon as Heracross-Lite is indeed worthy of BL, usage statistics (how many people opt to use Pinsir) and battle logs (how Pinsir affects UU Teams and Pokemon).

I understand where you're coming from though, with all of BL unleashed upon UU, who's to say that anyone will use UU. Definitely a viable point that will be put under consideration. Perhaps a limit of 1 or 2 BLs a team? This will still allow for a fairly stabilised UU Metagame whilst testing BL Pokemon such as Pinsir, Shedinja and Zangoose.

If a player wishes to prove that a certain pokemon IS Borderline and unfit for UU play, they must simply add the pokemon to their team and win as many battles as they can. From a range of 64 participants and approximately 61 pokemon in the current BL Tier, we will probably see players gravitate to pokemon that most easily "break" UU.

Another idea, is to have a group of 6 or so BL pokemon to be unbanned prior to each round. From a randomised cluster of six, (Venusaur, Regigigas, Entei, Ambipom, Leafeon, Tauros) players will be able to choose 1 or 2 BL pokes to add to their team. We can see from this more concentrated group of pokemon which are the most used and which dominate the standard UU team. Another option is NOT to randomise this group and simply test a cluster of BLs (All sweepers, All Walls, 3 Sweepers + 3 Walls) where one could see the approximate power BL Sweepers have on UU Walls, UU Sweepers on BL Walls, or a combination of the two. I'm resisting the idea of unbanning only 1 BL pokemon at a time as this will cause players to "metagame" against it, packing their team with several counters to the lone poke.

However both of these ideas shatter the first objective, of seeing the viablitly of a BL Metagame and whether or not it is "balanced". Obviously more thought needs to go into this.

If neccessary, i'd seperate these two ideas into seperate Tournaments, hopefully with assisstance in hosting. The first objective simply executed through a Tournament where all BLs are unbanned at once, and the latter using one of the two ideas in this post.
 
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