DP Tier Discussion Thread - BL and UU

[Deck Knight]

Finally, I get to join the legendary Smogon tier-talk!
I think Vaporeon is BL. It's a bit much for Underused, with a fair amount of support moves, good stats, and Wish. (Fake Tears is also a cool phaze move)

Abomasnow is UU. It's got many weaknesses (4x Fire is most crippling, but Fighting, Steel, Bug, Flying, hell even Poison!), meh stats, and all it does is set up Hail. Hail teams don't even work as well as Sandstreamers do in my opinion, since Ice is taken down by... lots.

Magmortar is poopy. Meh movepool, one good enough stat (Sp.Atk) with no Trait help isn't doing it for the red firebreather. It only really works on a Sunny Day team with Solarbeam and even then it's pretty meh. It straddles a fine line between BL and UU I believe.

I'm moderately disappointed that the most powerful attacker in not-Ubers, Medicham, is BL, but that's a discussion for another day.

First, Vaporeon is already listed as OU.

Auto-Hail is too powerful for UU, and is seriously, seriously unbalancing. Abomasnow's inclusion means nearly everyone will need to have a weather changer. It really burns a lot of strategies.

Use Magmortar before you spout about it. I've got an OU team that leads Magmortar that has a W-L record of about 52-10. Magmortar has a crap movepool? Yeah, Overheat, Thunderbolt, Thunderpunch, Mach Punch, Earthquake, Solarbeam, Psychic, Focus Punch, Focus Blast, Cross Chop, Flare Blitz, Lava Plume, Will-O-Wisp, and Rock Slide is a "meh" movepool. What do you want, Ice Beam and Grass Knot?

Magmortar has 95 Atk, 125 SA, and 83 Speed. That means it outspeeds nearly all of UU and can lay waste to a lot of them. Trust me, you let Magmortar into UU, and I'll twalk all over your teams with my Life Orb set, just to prove the point. Gastrodon and Quagsire are the only things that can switch into Magmortar. Everything else can be 1-2HKOd by one of its options.

Magmortar's defenses are 75/67/95. Awesome? not really. Decent? Yes.

Trust me, Magmortar may never be seen, but underestimate it at your peril.

 

[Forsety]

Is Subseeding really powerful enough to make up for Vileplume's weakened physical STAB power?

Yes. Yes and Yes.

Just look at Jumpluff. Leech Seed, Sub and Sleep Powder is already enough to wipe out an entire team if your not prepared and thats with something which can't even take a hit and multiple weakness.

Now take Venusaur who actually has defenses and a good typing...

can someone explain to me how Shedinja and Moltres made it to BL but Azumarill and Mamoswine didn't?

-Mamoswine will probably end up there.
-Shedninja has no Hail/Sandstorm to fear in UU and now has Focus Sash.
-Your joking about Moltres aren't you?
-If you want Azumarill up there than make a case. I certainly have no problems with it in UU, I've used it and fought it and I know it has major downfalls.

@Chris
I'll put this as politely as I can. I've seen opinions with more foresight and quality in the bottom of my toilet for reasons pointed out by the above poster.

 

[marrilpet]

^ You also have Memento-pluff, which works in any environment, be it Ubers or NU.

 

[Deck Knight]

Yes. Yes and Yes.

Just look at Jumpluff. Leech Seed, Sub and Sleep Powder is already enough to wipe out an entire team if your not prepared and thats with something which can't even take a hit and multiple weakness.

Now take Venusaur who actually has defenses and a good typing...

-Mamoswine will probably end up there.
-Shedninja has no Hail/Sandstorm to fear in UU and now has Focus Sash.
-Your joking about Moltres aren't you?
-If you want Azumarill up there than make a case. I certainly have no problems with it in UU, I've used it and fought it and I know it has major downfalls.

@Chris
I'll put this as politely as I can. I've seen opinions with more foresight and quality in the bottom of my toilet for reasons pointed out by the above poster.

Actually, Jumpluff can't attack worth anything (55 each), Its defenses are 75/70/85 (mediocre). It also has the benefit of being able to switch in on Earthquake any time it pleases. It also has Encore to further its annoyance.

How do you feel Subseeding is in light of the new, improved Taunt? It disables the strategy for at least 2 turns, although the caveat is you have to use it while the foe isn't subbed. I just don't think its powerful enough in DP now that so many pokemon.

Although I must admit, the fact it can function as a Jumpfluff with credible attacking power does give me some new insight. Still, with the upgraded offensive power and tricks of new pokemon, I think it'd be worth testing it.

 

[ODDish]

...What? If you're going to say that, which goes against all of the talk about Mamoswine in this thread so far, at least back it up. Same goes for the others, but Mamoswine was most discussed out of those as of late.

As for Clefable, I would say that it could be UU where the lesser fighting types roam. Clefable doesn't pose too much of a problem for anything with a pretty powerful BB.

Apologies I meant BL ... the result of too much typing and not enough sleep. I will edit my earlier post.

 

[mHMM]

-Mamoswine will probably end up there.

that's good. he is a beast and would destroy UU. i can even see him becoming OU in a while. he is DEFINATELY gaining popularity and rightfully so.

-Shedninja has no Hail/Sandstorm to fear in UU and now has Focus Sash.

exactly. as long as Abomasnow is still in BL (which it definately should be), Shedinja doesn't stand a chance. Even with out hail/sandstorm and the addition of focus sash, spikes and stealth rock will always be present no matter what tier you are talking about. it seems like teams have to be centered around Shedinja just to send him out, and for what? 40 base speed and limiting attack options? no thanks.

-Your joking about Moltres aren't you?

you are right, here. i just checked him out again and he is much better than i remember. he needs to stay in BL. sorry about that.

-If you want Azumarill up there than make a case. I certainly have no problems with it in UU, I've used it and fought it and I know it has major downfalls.

the fifth highest attack stat in the game (topped only by Medicham, Attack Deoxys, Regigigas, Slaking, and Rampardos) coupled with a STAB'ed priority move. Not to mention, 100/80/80 base defenses, some handy resistances, and a very decent movepool. obviously it has some big downfalls, but you can't expect perfection out of a pokemon that is being debated as possibly UU.

 

[Thunderpup]

I already assume this works this way, but since smogon has no clearly defined list, I'll put this up there.

There should be NO LEGENDARIES in UU. Whether or not there are any, I just think they are too powerful and should be left out of discussion.

I don't think anyone mentioned Kingdra should be placed in BL. With Swift Swim support and no huge weaknesses, not to mention awesome total stats and potential to be physical, special, or mixed as a sweeper, or even bulky, deserves to be placed in BL.

Vaporeon... How many vaporeon's have you seen in OU? I don't think it's that prevalent anymore, at least as far as I see. I don't care much either way, but I think vaporeon should get some discussion in terms of use.

 

[marrilpet]

Agreeing on Kingdra in BL. Once you get Swift Swim set up, Kingdra can be a beast to take down. I've even used her on a OU team to some degree of success.

 

[Bologo]

I already assume this works this way, but since smogon has no clearly defined list, I'll put this up there.

There should be NO LEGENDARIES in UU. Whether or not there are any, I just think they are too powerful and should be left out of discussion.

I don't think anyone mentioned Kingdra should be placed in BL. With Swift Swim support and no huge weaknesses, not to mention awesome total stats and potential to be physical, special, or mixed as a sweeper, or even bulky, deserves to be placed in BL.

Vaporeon... How many vaporeon's have you seen in OU? I don't think it's that prevalent anymore, at least as far as I see. I don't care much either way, but I think vaporeon should get some discussion in terms of use.

Regigigas may be a legendary, but it's by far the WORST legendary. They gave it an ability to balance so it could play with the other pokemon, but the ability is a million times worse than even truant. Honestly, at least Truant lets Slaking still have the ability to do something, but Regigigas can't get a kill, because Regigigas sucks! If any legendary belongs in UU, it's him, because it shouldn't even be counted as a legendary. Heh, well I suppose it can support things, but that's definitely not strong enough as a lot of things can counter him.

Kingdra's already in BL...so there's no point in arguing about its place.

We're not even supposed to be talking about OUs, so why are you talking about Vaporeon? Plus, just for the record, I see a lot of Vaporeons.

 

[Fishin]

There should be NO LEGENDARIES in UU. Whether or not there are any, I just think they are too powerful and should be left out of discussion.

No, just...no.

Legendary is just a label, there's nothing that makes a legendary "good" besides the fact that they all have high BST's. But BST's are NOT a good representation of power in any way. I don't think I even need to provide an example for this, it's incredibly obvious that just because a pokemon has X amount of stats doesn't mean it's good.

That being said...I think most of the legendaries are BL material (besides Phione, obviously). The main one I think is up for debate is Articuno (and Regigigas, but I think several people already mentioned him). Despite being a defensive pokemon, it's got a ton of weaknesses, few useful resistances, and is 4x weak to SR (bad enough on a sweeper, even worse on something that's supposed to take hits). It also has a pretty mediocore supporting movepool (Roar, Heal Bell, Tailwind) and junk for an offensive movepool (Ice Beam, Water Pulse, and U-turn). It's stats are very good for UU and it does have roost, but I don't think they're enough to make up for it's many shortcomings.

Entei is also debatable. I think it's a bit more likely to be BL, however.

 

[Emu]

Has anyone given any thought to adding a tier? I think there's a very strong case for it:

First, this generation got a heap of new Pokes, especially in the upper tiers, so the current BL resembles the advanced OU, especially with things like Milotic and Snorlax being demoted. That leaves a huge pile in BL, plus UU, which was always a really big tier. Something inserted between these two (LU, for less-used? Just a suggestion...) might make things more comfortable.

This little bridge-tier would be for the stuff that is hard to classify-- Typhlosion, Clefable, Drifblim, etc. Then that could balance the tiers at least a little bit.

I realize that BL already is a "bridge-tier," but people play the BL metagame all the time, so let it be official. Why not?

...Don't flame me... Aaaah...

 

[QibingZero]

Vaporeon... How many vaporeon's have you seen in OU? I don't think it's that prevalent anymore, at least as far as I see. I don't care much either way, but I think vaporeon should get some discussion in terms of use.

Even if Vaporeon is going down in usage (I would personally say it's right on the line of OU right now) I don't see why it matters. There's not a chance it would ever go to UU, so there's really no reason to discuss it.

By the way, neither stat total discussion nor 'legendary' discussion should have anything to do with this, as mentioned. It reminds me of my urge to pull out a Moltres - Articuno - Registeel - Entei - Regigigas - Uxie team every time someone on shoddy says 'no legendaries'.

Has anyone given any thought to adding a tier? I think there's a very strong case for it:

First, this generation got a heap of new Pokes, especially in the upper tiers, so the current BL resembles the advanced OU, especially with things like Milotic and Snorlax being demoted. That leaves a huge pile in BL, plus UU, which was always a really big tier. Something inserted between these two (LU, for less-used? Just a suggestion...) might make things more comfortable.

This little bridge-tier would be for the stuff that is hard to classify-- Typhlosion, Clefable, Drifblim, etc. Then that could balance the tiers at least a little bit.

I realize that BL already is a "bridge-tier," but people play the BL metagame all the time, so let it be official. Why not?

...Don't flame me... Aaaah...

I guess it needs to be noted again that any form of 'BL metagame' you've seen being played has absolutely nothing to do with the Smogon tiers whatsoever. Sadly, I don't think people are able to understand the tier system very well unless they actually know the distinct history of it. There are just so many people coming around from other sites that make their own tiers with the exact same names and completely different meanings. Misleading, to say the least.

 

[ODDish]

Hmm ... this one just came up in a UU RMT, Dusclops.

I know NFE's are not usually given special consideration, but I honestly believe that the fat ghost needs addressing.

Its role as premier Anti-spinner has been well and truly usurped by its evolution, but is Dusclops "weak" enough for UU? Personally I don't think it is and therefore needs adding to the BL list ...

 

[Lee]

No, not considering it was OU last gen and certainly hasn't got any weaker. Dusclops has got considerably better if anything.

I'm moderately disappointed that the most powerful attacker in not-Ubers, Medicham, is BL, but that's a discussion for another day.

Marowak has a lot more attack actually.

 

[gec]

But Medichams Attack reaches around 480 with Pure power.

 

[Lee]

But Medichams Attack reaches around 480 with Pure power.

And Marowaks reaches around 568 with Thick Club so unless 'Cham packs a Choice Band, Marowak outpowers him.

 

[gec]

Good point. but with Pure power being an Ability rather than an Item, its kinda different and offers more versitality.

 

[Deck Knight]

Has anyone given any thought to adding a tier? I think there's a very strong case for it:

First, this generation got a heap of new Pokes, especially in the upper tiers, so the current BL resembles the advanced OU, especially with things like Milotic and Snorlax being demoted. That leaves a huge pile in BL, plus UU, which was always a really big tier. Something inserted between these two (LU, for less-used? Just a suggestion...) might make things more comfortable.

This little bridge-tier would be for the stuff that is hard to classify-- Typhlosion, Clefable, Drifblim, etc. Then that could balance the tiers at least a little bit.

I realize that BL already is a "bridge-tier," but people play the BL metagame all the time, so let it be official. Why not?

...Don't flame me... Aaaah...

We're having enough trouble as it is determining what goes into 4 non-Uber tiers. It is not the job of smogon or anyone to break up pokemon into relatively playable tiers based on power and/or usage for you. If you want a tier list to use for competitive battling with LU, UEL(Used Even Less), and SBUM (Should Be Used More) be our guest and create your own.

As it stands, the purpose of BL/UU discussion has already been stated a thousand times: BL/UU discussion is for pokemon that would unbalance UU but aren't seen much in OU. The only things we should be saying about BL pokemon is what they do in relation to UU pokemon. It doesn't matter if Mamoswine does crap to Bronzong and Skarmory and destroys Salamence, Tyranitar, and Garchomp, the only thing you care about for this discussion is what it threatens and what stops it if it were only contending with UU pokemon. In Mamoswine's case, there's literally nothing that can wall all of its attacks and it can threaten everything in the UU metagame immediately.

BL is not supposed to be a balanced tier in and of itself. Its sole purpose is to kick out the pokemon that would unbalance UU.

 

[Sir Spanky]

I know this isn't specific Pokemon discussion, but building on the addition/renaming of tiers that a few mentioned, I think there should be some sort of low-OU tier. This way Pokemon like Linoone/Azumarill etc, who only just make it out of UU (presuming) wouldn't be in the same tiers as awesome stuff like Snorlax, Milotic and Raikou.

Just a suggestion.

 

[Ness]

Are people seriously saying that Magmortar belongs in UU? Hell Magmortar is a near-clone with Electrivire in stats(but its movepool and ability are worse).

But do you honestly want to see

Magmortar
-Lava Plume/Flamethrower
-Thunderbolt
-Hidden Power Whatever/Confuse Ray
-Cross Chop/Focus Punch

In UU?

 

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

Hmm ... this one just came up in a UU RMT, Dusclops.

I know NFE's are not usually given special consideration, but I honestly believe that the fat ghost needs addressing.

Its role as premier Anti-spinner has been well and truly usurped by its evolution, but is Dusclops "weak" enough for UU? Personally I don't think it is and therefore needs adding to the BL list ...

I think some of the more powerful NFEs need to be taken into account. I wouldn't say they should be given special consideration but they should be taken as seriously as everything else at least.

Another NFE Pokemon I feel strongly about with regards to this discussion is Rhydon. I seriously believe that this guy deserves consideration for BL for a number of reasons. One is that I don't think the lack of Solid Rock is enough to compensate for the large gap in power between OU and UU given that the difference in SE damage is only 1/4. It is still more than capable of taking various unSTAB'd Earthquakes, Ice Punches and the like with ease IMO. Secondly, Rhydon has gained much in the Advance to D/P transition such as Stone Edge, Rock Polish and various power boosting items. I believe these improvements will make it too powerful as not only does it have a more powerful CB set with Stone Edge over Rock Slide/Blast, it can also perform a fast sweep with Rock Polish. Even with Adamant, just a single Rock Polish can allow it to outspeed almost all of UU (and most things that still outrun it such as Swellow, if it remains UU, cannot do anything in return), then proceed to sweep with Stone Edge/Megahorn/Earthquake supported by Expert Belt/Life Orb for power or Wide Lens for reliability.

Rock/Ground, despite so many weaknesses, can switch into quite a few things in UU, especially all the Normal/Flying types, so it can get in quite often then threaten immediately. I don't see many Pokemon that switch in carefree, so I fear it could dominate the vast majority of UU teams if allowed in. What do you guys think about Rhydon, or any other NFE that could overpower UU?

 

[lincarnate]

Crobat should definitely be in BL. Base 130 speed means it outspeeds all but a handful of UU Pokemon without a +Speed nature. With one, it is outsped only by scarfers and Electrode. It has above average defenses (85/80/80) and good typing (three 4x resists and one immunity) to go along with Hypnosis, Roost and U-Turn. Offensively, it can either use a Choice Band set with a STABbed Brave Bird or a Nasty Plot set with Air Slash/HP Fighting/Dark Pulse and hit everything in UU at least neutral and hit many, many things super effective. I just can't see a sure-fire counter against it in UU.

 

[squirtleboy12]

Good point. but with Pure power being an Ability rather than an Item, its kinda different and offers more versitality.

yeah but medicham needs ninjask support to work well and wheres ninjask bl..it has bad defenses and it also lost shadow ball,its true it gain elemntal punches but its speed its average and will get ohko by almost all stab attacks from any pokemon.

 

[Forsety]

If any legendary belongs in UU, it's him, because it shouldn't even be counted as a legendary. Heh, well I suppose it can support things, but that's definitely not strong enough as a lot of things can counter him.

At the same time you've completely ignored its straight 110/110/110 for all defenses and 80 base special attack which it can still use and multiple other options like parafusion and Knock Off to play support as well.

Even with out hail/sandstorm and the addition of focus sash, spikes and stealth rock will always be present no matter what tier you are talking about.

Spikes no. Theres literally two pokemon only who you'd ever use Spikes with in UU. Qwilfish and Froslass. Froslass has better things to do so that only really leaves Qwilfish.

Stealth Rock however is a viable argument...but. Focus Sash does absorb SR and Shedinja's specialty is not mass mayhem. It forces switches like no tomorrow, it can hit decently, it can status and absorbs two thirds of the game.

That fact alone makes Shedinja actually quite common in the 00ber metagame because it forces Kyogre to switch out. Basically the second you have no attacks that can hit it indirectly or directly than Shedinja is a default win which is why some people will try to build teams around it.

Actually, Jumpluff can't attack worth anything (55 each)

Thought you might bring this up. One thing STAB Aerial Ace, another is HP Flying and the other being U-Turn. The two flying attacks get STAB and hit everything Leech Seed fails against and can double as residual damage while Leech Seed is screwing them over or as a finisher. U-Turn although weaker is again super effective and also gets Jumpluff out of there.

However why is this point minor? Because quite simply its only a option on top of what it can already do.

How do you feel Subseeding is in light of the new, improved Taunt?

Still works fine. First you actually need to pull off that taunt. Second being you better pray to god that Sleep Powder doesn't hit when you try a Taunt.

Another being Taunt is actually quite seldom used within UU. Let me point out that most of the good Taunt users are already in BL or higher. Out of the viable Taunt users remaining they're either slower than Venusaur or have paper for defenses. Look up a list yourself.

I'll sum up what can make Subseeding such a effective strategy.
-Low effort, high payoff. Can be setup in literally 1 and a half turns to run till a switch. Sleep Powder is not actually required and is overkill for the setup. (See Sceptile for the proof)
-Variety. It hits everything and narrows it down to only one type which needs covering.
-Controls game flow. You'll always have a 1 turn advantage and all you have to do is not let them outplay you and land a finishing blow.
-Balance. If you think about it Subseeding lets you defend and attack at the same time.
-The only real definite counters are Tentacruel and Swalot...

yeah but medicham needs ninjask support to work well

It can work well with a Choice Scarf too.

What do you guys think about Rhydon, or any other NFE that could overpower UU?

Well Rhydon in particular I'm on the wall about, mainly because of a certain other Rock/Ground aka Golem. They're pretty similar in usuage, water and grass are popular in UU too...

 

[Thunderpup]

Are people seriously saying that Magmortar belongs in UU? Hell Magmortar is a near-clone with Electrivire in stats(but its movepool and ability are worse).

But do you honestly want to see

Magmortar
-Lava Plume/Flamethrower
-Thunderbolt
-Hidden Power Whatever/Confuse Ray
-Cross Chop/Focus Punch

In UU?

No, magmortar in my eyes qualifies for BL in more ways than one.

On Legendaries, I overlooked articuno, I think it does belong in the UU environment. I wanted to make a post last night but it was deleted early.

Sorry about the legendary comment. I just grouped every legendary together and thought due to stats, movepools, etc. (with a real lack of thought into some cases, such as articuno, which as I previously mentioned works well in UU, and is not overpowering) that they belonged in the BL environment. I didn't put alot of thought into that post, but I believe as it stands right now, Regigas is worth discussing.

Regigas, my brother uses in UU, because that's where it's grouped right now. BUT staring down a 110 base hp substitute protected by 110 base hp subs is pretty fucking scary in the UU environment, as he puts up a confuse ray, and subs again.

On stats alone, he's scary. He lacks a decent recovery move. He can be PHazed. He has a x2 fighting weakness. All of these are valid, but if he lasts 5 turns through confuse ray, subs, any way you do it (which he also learns the elemental punches) he will mess up every UU team not prepared to deal with it.

Jolly Politoed, with 252 Attack EV's (base 75 attack stat) AFTER belly drum
using STAB waterfall against the standard Regigigas: 52.36% - 61.56%

After leftovers, that's a possible 3HKO. Now think about how he walls other pokemon?

Adamant Choice Banded 252 Attack Pinsir using a x2 Close Combat on the Standard Regi - 73.58% - 86.56%

That's alot of damage, but this is a ridiculous scenario because nobody runs both adamant AND choice band. And no one would switch Regi into a CC.

But seriously, unless the UU team runs a PHazer, he can stall a team, then sweep them.


Don't underestimate him, I guess is what I'm trying to say.