DP Tier Discussion Thread - BL and UU

[Pneuma]

How are we supposed to not underestimate him when the only way you can see for him to live is through Confuse Ray?

He can't Sub-protect forever and should he do so, he's down to two attacking moves which can be walled. Or toxic. Or haze.

He's UU through and through, and I doubt he'll even be able to do much there. 5 turns in pokemon is damn near a quarter of a match most of the time.

 

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

He can't Sub-protect forever and should he do so, he's down to two attacking moves which can be walled.

If only it could do that even. Regigigas can't learn Protect lol.

Although I think its unlikely to be too 'powerful' for UU, I see no reason why it cannot function well there as a utility tank. Just imagine the same Pokemon with 70 base Attack and 40 base speed and you'll see that it is still a reasonable defensive Pokemon with plenty of support options and a decent selection of attacks to come off either 178 Attack or 196 Sp. Atk, which is not bad for a UU tank.

One or two attacks combined with two or three support moves, possibly some Wish support too (Hypno?) can make Regigigas a more than capable contributor to a team IMO. I think it deserves a try, as putting it in BL might unjustly banish it from any use whatsoever.

 

[Pneuma]

If only it could do that even. Regigigas can't learn Protect lol.

Everytime I think about him, he just gets worse.
I'll leave him back in January/February before I knew about Slow Start.

 

[Thunderpup]

How are we supposed to not underestimate him when the only way you can see for him to live is through Confuse Ray?

He can't Sub-protect forever and should he do so, he's down to two attacking moves which can be walled. Or toxic. Or haze.

He's UU through and through, and I doubt he'll even be able to do much there. 5 turns in pokemon is damn near a quarter of a match most of the time.

Toxic hurts, haze is USELESS, what are you hazing? Phaze, yes. Walled? Not quite. What UU walls can stop Return and Ice Punch? Exactly. He doesn't need to Sub forever, just 5 turns. And it's very do-able.

Have you even SEEN him? I don't think so. I think you're just acting biased. He's not that hard to work into the battle.

 

[Bologo]

Regigas, my brother uses in UU, because that's where it's grouped right now. BUT staring down a 110 base hp substitute protected by 110 base hp subs is pretty fucking scary in the UU environment, as he puts up a confuse ray, and subs again.

Yeah, but when he has to switch into something, and then take a hit right after since he's unbelievably slow during Slow Start, he may not even have enough HP to sub after that. A lot of Stealth Rock users still exist in UU, and even things like Omastar can still spike the field. With residual damage, what can it do without a recovery move?

Most things that are in BL don't need to rely on Confuse Ray for surviving, like was mentioned earlier, but Regigigas does unfortunately...

Jolly Politoed, with 252 Attack EV's (base 75 attack stat) AFTER belly drum
using STAB waterfall against the standard Regigigas: 52.36% - 61.56%

What's the standard Regigigas going to do back to Politoed though? Politoed can Hypnosis it and, even without it, Regigigas with the support set has pretty much no offenses...even Thunderbolt won't do much to Politoed with no EVs.

After leftovers, that's a possible 3HKO. Now think about how he walls other pokemon?

But seriously, unless the UU team runs a PHazer, he can stall a team, then sweep them.

Sorry, but I really don't think he can stall without a recovery move, or even protect. Status can destroy him without Rest, and Normal is a type with no resistances, remember. Plus once he subs, he's not getting that HP back without Wish support, and Confusion only has a 50% chance of the opponent actually hurting itself, which is why most BL or over pokemon don't have that.

I love this guy, but as much as I do, he can't even utilize the 110 all defenses very well with no resistances. He can Knock Off, and maybe use a special attacking set, but remember, a special attacking set would only have unSTAB moves, which don't work well with only 80 base special attack.

Don't underestimate him, I guess is what I'm trying to say.

Well, IMO, he's not a BL, but a good UU, so that's something. :]

Toxic hurts, haze is USELESS, what are you hazing? Phaze, yes. Walled? Not quite. What UU walls can stop Return and Ice Punch? Exactly. He doesn't need to Sub forever, just 5 turns. And it's very do-able.

Have you even SEEN him? I don't think so. I think you're just acting biased. He's not that hard to work into the battle.

The Rock/Steels which are used a lot in UU resist both Return and Ice Punch with Return being a double resist. All 3 of them are good walls...Omastar can as well.

You do also realize that subbing 5 times means he'll be at 1 HP which means that it'll die to any priority move, right? Also, subbing 5 times is not possible when this guy's gonna be taking hits alongside subbing because of his awful speed.

 

[Lee]

What UU walls can stop Return and Ice Punch? Exactly.

Aggron, Bastiodon and Probopass have much more defence than Skarmory, a 4x resist to Return and 2x resist to Ice Punch. Omastar resists both attacks and has 125 base defence. Shedinja does a pretty good job of phazing him too. Relicanth resists both attacks and has 100HP and 130 defence.

That'll do for now, I think. There are others though.

 

[Yoshi King]

I'd like to make a case for Empoleon being in BL, and I highly encourage someone to challenge me since my opinion is most likely wrong, not to mention I don't have a great grasp of the UU metagame.

That said:

Empoleon has a really large movepool to draw on that utilize both its physical and special attack. Obviously a Choice Specs set would be the most used tactic (Grass Knot, Surf/Hydro Pump, Flash Cannon/Brine, Ice Beam), but it can also utilize Swords Dance to get off some Rock Slides, Drill Pecks, Aqua Jet(very useful), and maybe even Metal Claw.

Its speed is nothing special (as is its physical defense, leaving it open to Thunderbolt/HP ground or fighting), but bring it in on the right opponent and more often than not its defensive typings are going to come through for you. What does everybody think?

 

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

I'd like to make a case for Empoleon being in BL, and I highly encourage someone to challenge me since my opinion is most likely wrong, not to mention I don't have a great grasp of the UU metagame.

That said:

Empoleon has a really large movepool to draw on that utilize both its physical and special attack. Obviously a Choice Specs set would be the most used tactic (Grass Knot, Surf/Hydro Pump, Flash Cannon/Brine, Ice Beam), but it can also utilize Swords Dance to get off some Rock Slides, Drill Pecks, Aqua Jet(very useful), and maybe even Metal Claw.

Its speed is nothing special (as is its physical defense, leaving it open to Thunderbolt/HP ground or fighting), but bring it in on the right opponent and more often than not its defensive typings are going to come through for you. What does everybody think?

Empoleon is BL already, so nobody is disagreeing with you. It's only worth pointing out Empoleon if you think it should be UU.

I personally love Empoleon and use it almost all the time in OU, which has nothing to do with this discussion btw. If it were allowed in UU it'd probably be the first Pokemon I put on my team every time.

 

[Dragontamer]

Hmm, Articuno is currently listed as BL. What do yall think about that?

I've never really seen Articuno used well. 4x weak to stealth rocks, few support options and perhaps the worst typing possible in the game (does it actually resist anything? Oh yeah, grass and bug) Tailwind is probably better for double-battles (3 turns? wtf)

Also, Cloyster has never done anything useful for me... it's Sp. Def is so horrible that you can probably kill it with ice beam, it is weak to rock / fighting, and the rock/steels overall seem a hell of a lot more useful than it with higher Sp. Def and similar levels of defense. And then when we compare it with the UU spiker/spinner of choice, Torkoal, it still seems inferior. With Cloyster's pathetic HP, its defenses aren't much better than Torkoal and has clearly a worse typing (weak to rock/fighting/electric/grass, resists only ice/water) and Torkoal sports a significantly better Sp. Def stat. Maybe he can take a hit.

On the other hand, Glaceon seems like a candidate for BL, as well as Mamoswine (but the pig was already discussed). STAB on ice is pretty nice, and when coupled with 130 base attacking stats makes it seem too strong for UU.

Mamoswine in UU seems silly in all honesty. Glaceon is a corner case I admit, but STAB Earthquake, rock/ground attack combo, 80 base speed and 130 base attack (higher than Heracross), 100+ base HP and decent defense stats and a stab priority move... I don't really know what would actually take a choice-banded hit from this guy.

 

[Fishin]

Hmm, Articuno is currently listed as BL. What do yall think about that?

I've never really seen Articuno used well. 4x weak to stealth rocks, few support options and perhaps the worst typing possible in the game (does it actually resist anything? Oh yeah, grass and bug) Tailwind is probably better for double-battles (3 turns? wtf)

On the other hand, Glaceon seems like a candidate for BL, as well as Mamoswine (but the pig was already discussed). STAB on ice is pretty nice, and when coupled with 130 base attacking stats makes it seem too strong for UU.

Articuno I think is a possible candidate for UU (I posted why last page), but I think Glaceon is most definitely an UU. While it does have a nice, very powerful Ice Beam to smack things with, it doesn't have much to back it up with, just Shadow ball and HP. Ice/Water pokemon are common enough (well...tiers aren't finalized yet, but both Walrein and Lapras have a chance of ending up UU, and Dewgong will almost certainly be UU) and can 4x resist Glaceon's main attack, while dealing a solid amount of damage back with Surf. While Mamoswine could hit these with STAB EQ or Stone Edge, Glaceon's best option is HP. Most other water types would do an effective job of countering Glaceon as well.

 

[Steven718]

I think the biggest problem I'm seeing in this discussion is so many people wanting to use BL as a tier, and it's clouding their view on the bigger picture.

In sports you have minor leagues and major leagues, BL is supposed to be like the 2nd string or special teams in the major leagues.

 

[Ness]

Also, about Honchkrow, he belongs at BL minimum, because I took the time to breed one and train it, and I have made OU teams cry with him. He is the perfect Pokemon if you are a prediction whore like me. I would say he is the MVP of the team he is on of mine. If he had Murkrow Speed he could potentially be OU.

 

[Fire GK]

I think Azumarril must be at least BL. She does have great OU material, but Its walled easily by some common Physical Walls, but is a great late-game cleaner, and also a fantastic revenge killer with Aqua Jet.

 

[Mario With Lasers]

Also, about Honchkrow, he belongs at BL minimum, because I took the time to breed one and train it, and I have made OU teams cry with him. He is the perfect Pokemon if you are a prediction whore like me. I would say he is the MVP of the team he is on of mine. If he had Murkrow Speed he could potentially be OU.

Again, how well does the pokémon fare against other OUs do not matter; what is being discussed here is if the pokémon is too strong or not for UU.

 

[Kietharr]

If any legendary is deserving of the UU title it'd definately be Articuno. His only real use is mind reader/sheer cold which is claused 90% of the time anyways, his typing is horrible, his movepool isn't all that great either. His stats are his sole redeeming feature otherwise I'd say he's about as useful as Delibird. Gigas is BL IMO, even though slow start is a god awful ability, the fact that he's still got decent defenses and the ability to protect/sub stall until he gains uber class stats. It's like Manaphy in OU, harmless until it manages to set up, then it's absolutely gamebreaking.

Mamoswine is too powerful for UU, with solid stats and a respectable movepool he's a force to be reckoned with even in OU, he should be BL. Not much in UU will survive an Earthquake or Ice Fang from him.

Scyther is really edging the line between BL and UU. On one hand, he has technician STAB Aerial Ace coming off of high attack and speed stats which makes him a worthy threat even in some OU scenarios, on the other hand he's x4 rock weak and very fragile. UU is probably where he should end up though. With x4 flying resistant physical walls like Aggron around in UU he won't be too powerful, and stealth rock sees enough use in any tier to discourage his use. In UU I predict he'll become a popular starter, he can pass speed and attack boosts as well as do some choice band/SD Aerial Ace sweeping.

Most NFEs of stuff that has recently evolved belong in BL, Rhydon got a lot better even with an evo overshadowing him, Dusclops didn't change much, but he's almost as powerful as Dusknoir. Electabuzz and Magmar are hard though, neither of them got much better while everything around them did. I never used them much so I'm ignorant of how powerful they are. From what I remember though they were both somewhat mediocre monotype special attackers in R/S/E.

 

[Bologo]

If any legendary is deserving of the UU title it'd definately be Articuno. His only real use is mind reader/sheer cold which is claused 90% of the time anyways, his typing is horrible, his movepool isn't all that great either. His stats are his sole redeeming feature otherwise I'd say he's about as useful as Delibird. Gigas is BL IMO, even though slow start is a god awful ability, the fact that he's still got decent defenses and the ability to protect/sub stall until he gains uber class stats.

Ok, first off, we already mentioned that Regigigas does NOT learn protect! No sub/protect will be happening.

About Articuno, you guys seem to be forgetting that even with the 4x weakness to stealth rock, it did improve this generation thanks to Roost now being in its movepool. It's relatively fast and it can pull off Roost to heal the 50% back, and it also loses its 4x weak to rock for one turn if it is in fact faster than the opponent.

It can last a long time with its good recovery move, and it can shuffle spikes around very well. Now, I'll admit that it doesn't have the best movepool out there, but it can actually stall a HUGE amount of things in UU thanks to Roost. In addition, its stalling with take double the PP from the opponent, and it CAN take most unSTAB Rock attacks. Moves with only 8 PP will find themselves being drained extremely quickly. It can also set up tough subs and stall that way as well with Roost. Once it has drained a dangerous move to the rest of your team, U-Turn out to your counter and kill the opposing pokemon. Articuno is much more resilient that it's given credit for, stay BL in my opinion, but I don't care if it's UU.

 

[Phizzlax]

As a person who frequently uses Regigigas in OU, I definitely feel like he should be BL. He's highly underestimated and overlooked. When I decided to train one people laughed, and I even thought of it as a pointless gimmick. Mine is:
Adamant
Leftovers
252 HP
130 Defense
126 SD

Confuse ray
Thunder Wave
Ice Punch
Earthquake

It hasn't ONCE failed to at least cripple something, and more often than not can pull off a kill AND cripple something. With defenses nearing 300, only one weakness, parafusion, HP over 400 and leftovers he can easily last 5 turns (at which point with no EV investment his attack is around 400). He frequently causes switches, and is somewhat difficult to predict (people often think he's subbing and take the opportunity to setup).
I guarantee people using him correctly could dominate UU with him, and I strongly believe he should be BL.

 

[Fishin]

As a person who frequently uses Regigigas in OU, I definitely feel like he should be BL. He's highly underestimated and overlooked. When I decided to train one people laughed, and I even thought of it as a pointless gimmick.

Like people have said many times, how good something is in OU is not what we're using to judge whether or not something should be UU or BL - it's whether or not that pokemon would be overpowered in UU.

It hasn't ONCE failed to at least cripple something

Most defensive pokemon can cripple at least one thing if you don't use them extremely stupidly, this isn't anything special. Remember, to be BL, something has to be too powerful for UU, not just be a really good pokemon in UU. Regigigas is definitely more difficult to phaze than most pokemon, but given that it needs to survive for five turns to even think about being able to sweep and the fact that it's crippled by any sort of status effect as well really hurt it's chances (that said, I still don't have a solid opinion on whether gigas should be BL or UU, just voicing my thoughts on him).

 

[Pneuma]

what are you hazing? Phaze, yes.

Hazing is code for pseudo-hazing for future reference. The act of removing their buffs (or in this case, resetting debuffs).

and Probopass

No way is Probopass UU. His special sponge/sweeper set as well as his Magnet Pulling are extremely BL.

 

[Gmax]

Articuno is BL. He has very nice defenses, and Roost to make up for that shitty typing. I really like Sleep Talking Roar once Spikes and SR are set up, since if you set his speed to 222, you can outspeed most walls and Roar them away before they get a chance to move. Most notably, all Rapid Spinners in UU get Roared away, unless you run really high speeds for them, so whatever comes in will still take at least 19.25% damage. Not too shabby.

 

[InfernalGlitch]

Relicanth seems pretty worthy of BL. 100 HP and 130 Def makes it defensively stronger than Skarm. It also has a recoiless Head Smash which is capable of OHKOing Mence after Intimidate with around 220 EVs invested. Also does about 35-41% to Skarm with the same amount of EVs. Typhlosion is also worthy of BL. ScarfEruption is nothing to scoff at.

 

[Steven718]

Relicanth is slow, is weak to many common types and has a 4x grass weakness, really does not unbalance UU.

Thyphlosion on the other hand probably should indeed be BL.

 

[Lee]

I'm not so sure about Articuno. He has those godly defences, a powerful STAB Ice Beam and a great recovery move. He can also use Roar/Haze and even the ever valuable Heal Bell.

I do see the bad points though, so I think this may need more discussion. I consider him to be better than Entei anyway.

 

[sanjay120]

Articuno should imo be BL, for aforementioned reasons. Regigigas should stay UU I think, because by the time you manage to get it set up it's severely damaged.

 

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

I'm not so sure about Articuno. He has those godly defences, a powerful STAB Ice Beam and a great recovery move. He can also use Roar/Haze and even the ever valuable Heal Bell.

I do see the bad points though, so I think this may need more discussion. I consider him to be better than Entei anyway.

I'd honestly be very worried if Entei made it into UU. With the new options available to it it's far more threatening than Articuno, although I think both should remain BL. D/P gave it both Stone Edge, which is excellent physical filler for any opposing Fire types if adopting a Calm Mind/Flamethrower/Hidden Power set, and Will-o-wisp, which with 100 base speed can quickly cripple so many UU physical sweepers. On top of that it has no real weakness statwise, with his mediocre defenses backed up by an immense 115 base HP, and the ability to boost durability at both ends quite efficiently. Way too unbalancing for UU IMO.

Regigigas should stay UU I think, because by the time you manage to get it set up it's severely damaged.

Well Regigigas is BL atm so the main argument is whether it should stay there or be thrown in alongside UU. The problem I see with this discussion so far is that people look at Slow Start and think that it needs to stall out those five turns to be even remotely useable, which I believe to be rather ignorant to be honest. Everyone should start looking at the whole picture and considering its defensive/support options as well as potential sweeping in order to determine whether it unbalances UU or not. As far as this is concerned I am sitting on the fence with this one as I have not had sufficient battling experience with it, I am just trying to put the discussion into a more balanced perspective. All I will say is I think Regigigas is one of those special cases that will require some rigorous testing in UU in order to reach a satisfying conclusion.