DP Tier Discussion Thread - BL and UU

[?The Unknown?]

mamoswine is BL since it gets STAB on a very good combo and high atk and hp

 

[obi]

So something can become too strong for UU (OU pokes aren't allowed in UU) based on usage alone, right? Just wanted to clear this up beyond a shadow of a doubt since in the first post it very clearly says the difference between BL and UU is based on power alone and not at all based on usage. Of course, what we're talking about is OU, but if something is OU it can't be used in UU regardless of how strong it is, unless I'm missing something.

The difference between BL and UU is 100% power. Both BL and UU Pokemon are not used that much, so usage doesn't come into play here. What I'm saying is that if they become more used, then they are OU. This is not a UU vs. BL question, but an OU vs. UU/BL question.

 

[Chou Toshio]

The difference between BL and UU is 100% power. Both BL and UU Pokemon are not used that much, so usage doesn't come into play here. What I'm saying is that if they become more used, then they are OU. This is not a UU vs. BL question, but an OU vs. UU/BL question.

In other words, even if (theoretically) Tentacruel entered the top 10 most used pokemon in OU games, beating out the majority of OU pokes in usage, if its power were still considered lower than BL power, it would still be a UU poke, right?

Since the "tier" a poke "belongs to" isn't the tier it's scene in, but rather the lowest tier it can compete in. IE, Blissey is an OU poke no matter how much it's used in Uber. The same way, if based on power it's classified as UU, tentacruel would be UU no matter how often it's seen in OU-- that's irrelevant to its classification as UU since the wall between BL and UU is 100% about power.

 

[obi]

No. If it were used a lot, it's OU, regardless of its power. The point of UU is to have Pokemon you don't see much, so putting Pokemon you see a lot in there defeats the purpose.

 

[Chou Toshio]

In other words tentacruel's level of usage is a concern as to whether it can be allowed into UU? -_-;

Let's say (theoretically about tentacruel):
Usage: Became more frequent than a majority of the OUs
Power: The majority of UU players continue to believe its power to be lower than BL level, and it didn't over-centralize the UU metagame.

If those two events happened simultaneously, than tentacruel would still become OU (and therefore banned from UU) because of its usage? Based on your last post Obi, it seems like you're saying usage overrides power in this case?

 

[obi]

That's exactly what I'm saying.

 

[Chou Toshio]

Awesome. Thanks for the clarification Obi. You'd think this tier thing would be easy to understand since we've had the ground rules for a while and it's in the premise of this very thread, but lots of folks (including me of course!) still have a hard time understanding. ^^;

I guess we should decide a "max use level before it turns OU" for those UUs who have a niche in the standard game.

 

[Deucalion2]

I'd say anyone in the top 96 Pokemon, usage wise, as that is the top 20% of Pokemon after removing Ubers.

 

[X-Act]

I'd say stuff in OU should not be determined by its position in its usage classification. I say stuff in OU should be determined by its usage percentage. That means that if only 10 Pokemon are used by more than, say, 25% of all teams (which percentage cut-off should be decided), then only those 10 would be OU. And if there are 200 Pokemon that are used by more than 25% of all teams (which is impossible, but just for the example), then all those 200 would be OU.

 

[Dragontamer]

Sounds good to me. I'd say we should choose them on a basis that there are enough OU pokemon that it is difficult to make a team that "hard counters" all of them, but small enough that you can design your team around them.

For example, the set of pokemon that you'd see in 99% of your games (cutoff at 1%) would be very useful if you wanted to make a pure counter team, but this offers very little flexibility.

However, if the cutoff was at 30%, then only the top 70% of pokemon would be seen. Meaning in 30% of your battles, you won't have a counter planned or a gameplan if you worked with only that OU list.

So it is give and take, we just gotta find the balance.

 

[Pneuma]

Glad I'm not alone in thinking that if you see something all the time, it's defaulted to OU.

 

[Fishin]

Awesome. Thanks for the clarification Obi. You'd think this tier thing would be easy to understand since we've had the ground rules for a while and it's in the premise of this very thread, but lots of folks (including me of course!) still have a hard time understanding. ^^;

Yeah, thanks for clearing that up, I was a bit confused (and I'm sure some other people probably were too).

Anyways, back to the current discussion...I'm not really sure if there's a "right" cutoff point for OU, but the first 42 pokemon on the list (there are 42 pokemon in OU right now IIRC) seems to be a pretty good number. Doing it by % might be screwed up by instances of pokemon that have no place in competitive play (Bidoof) being used, though the effect would probably be pretty small anyways.

Back to the BL/UU discussion, though...any more thoughts against Empoleon and/or Leafeon? I'm leaning towards BL on Empoleon since it's a very strong sweeping threat in UU (it can very easily 2HKO the standard special walls with STAB attacks) and unlike Scyther it's not just falling over dead from any random attack. I don't really have an opinion on Leafeon yet.

 

[ODDish]

I don't really have an opinion on Leafeon yet.

I'm still leaning more toward allowing it, at least initially.

Whilst base 130 Defence and 95 speed are good Leafeon is still pure grass type, and there are a number of faster threats ...

Both Ninetales and Rapidash force it out immediately whilst, Torkoal would force it to pass (he could then Wisp the switch in)

Even with base 130 defence a STAB flying attack from Fearow/Dodrio/Swellow would hurt, and force it to switch ...

Most Manectrics now pack Flamethrower, Tentacruel has STAB poison, Froslass STAB ice, Scyther SD'd Bug/Flying. Heck Glaceon would probably be able to take a hit forcing her cousin to switch/pass or eat STAB ice.

Then of course there is Haze/Roar which stops it doing its job ...

 

[Pneuma]

Grass-typing definitely hurt it defensively. The only common physical type-resistance it has is EQ and fliers can do that one better. Physical Water, Electric, and Grass are nearly unheard of. (Waterfall? T-punch? Wood Hammer/Leaf Blade?) Most things, when given the option to pick between Surf/Waterfall and Tpunch/Tbolt will pick the special option 99% of the time for better BP and for Skarms, Hippo, and other assorted physical walls. This makes Leafeon's life in OU very very hard.


There is some solace in the fact that it can SD/Curse and QA the switch-in for a good chunk of change (though Scizor with Technician and higher attack and Zangoose with STAB make it look paltry). If Leafeon got EQ it would ruin a number of it's counters but Gamefreak decided that would not be the case.

When pushed to UU, Leafeon can come in on many of the bulky UU waters (hello Quagsire) and outrun nearly everything with base 95 speed. Ninetales and Rapidash problems are nearly impossible to get around and are 100% counters being faster, OHKO possibility, and hypnosis/wisp the switch. If you're just passing Wishes on your team, this is not as big a problem though. Without the fast fire types, Leafeon has a field day with Leaf Blade. If he sees Torkoal, he can pass the SD to his own Rapidash and scare the pants off the opponent.

I see no problem with him in UU and if anyone ventures to play him in OU he'll have to compete with both walls that are better than him and team players that are more useful than him.

 

[Forsety]

Grass-typing definitely hurt it defensively. The only common physical type-resistance it has is EQ and fliers can do that one better.

Fliers also risk an easy prediction and Stone Edge to the face.

 

[Pneuma]

Please include Levitators in my definition of fliers.

Quakeslide resistance or simply a high defense and immunity to one or the other is nothing new and Cresselia, Bronzong, Uxie, Claydol, Gliscor, and others are better than Leafeon in this regard.

 

[Fishin]

Fliers also risk an easy prediction and Stone Edge to the face.

Leafeon doesn't learn Stone Edge. Best option against most fliers is return.

This makes Leafeon's life in OU very very hard.

As it's been stated many, many times - it's usability in OU has no effect on it's status in UU (unless it becomes so frequently used that it's OU, but I doubt that's ever going to happen).

 

[Pneuma]

Leafeon doesn't learn Stone Edge. Best option against most fliers is return.

He was talking about people that attack Leafeon, not who Leafeon attacks.

As it's been stated many, many times - it's usability in OU has no effect on it's status in UU

I was explaining why it fit perfectly in UU. I've heard this argument enough times to make me sick, don't be another mantra hummer in the crowd.

(unless it becomes so frequently used that it's OU, but I doubt that's ever going to happen).

Tentacruel says hi.

 

[Fishin]

He was talking about people that attack Leafeon, not who Leafeon attacks.

Whoops, my mistake.

I was explaining why it fit perfectly in UU. I've heard this argument enough times to make me sick, don't be another mantra hummer in the crowd.

Regardless of that, the fact that it's got limited usability in OU doesn't (or shouldn't) make it any stronger of a candidate for UU.

Tentacruel says hi.

Leafeon's current usage ranking is 136. Could it's usage increase drasticially in the next few months? Yeah, it's possible. At current, I don't see any reasons why it would, though.

 

[Pneuma]

Regardless of that, the fact that it's got limited usability in OU doesn't (or shouldn't) make it any stronger of a candidate for UU.

Fuck it, I'll just quote the Swampert -> Quagsire/Gastrodon argument. Pokemon that share a niche (which is a rare-enough occurance) are unique in the fact that the one with higher stats will always be used over the one with lesser stats if they have the exact same use. If the one with higher stats didn't exist, the one of lesser stats would naturally rise to fill it's (still useful) place.

Keep in mind I'm not only arguing Leafeon's place in UU but his NOT OU, NOT place. To fully state an argument, I must also address it's contrapositive.

Leafeon's current usage ranking is 136. Could it's usage increase drasticially in the next few months? Yeah, it's possible. At current, I don't see any reasons why it would, though.

There's also no reason to not have a dynamic tier system.

As of right now and with our current metagame and barring any new move tutors or NYPC releases and lastly barring any old vets coming up with ingenious movesets (BOAH BOAH BOAH), Leafeon will probably not move. That does not remove it's ability to move.

 

[beefdreams]

electabuzz and dusklops are two pokemon that are now in a strange situation. with their new evolved forms, they have vanished from teams, but they are still usable in uu or bl teams. Where do you think they should go on the tier list? They are too good to be left out, and their use could cause some confusion.

 

[Pneuma]

They have been thoroughly covered in the NFE thread.

Electabuzz retains it's speed advantage and lacks Motor Drive and is generally used differently than Electivire. It stays around in UU.

Dusknoir is better than Dusclops in every way, to say nothing of the fact that Dusclops was OU last gen. Dusclops has been replaced.

 

[Fishin]

Fuck it, I'll just quote the Swampert -> Quagsire/Gastrodon argument. Pokemon that share a niche (which is a rare-enough occurance) are unique in the fact that the one with higher stats will always be used over the one with lesser stats if they have the exact same use. If the one with higher stats didn't exist, the one of lesser stats would naturally rise to fill it's (still useful) place.

Keep in mind I'm not only arguing Leafeon's place in UU but his NOT OU, NOT place. To fully state an argument, I must also address it's contrapositive.

Leafeon is unique in what it does (speedy Grass-type SD passer that's defensive on the physical side). Are you saying it's not good in OU, and thus should be considered more for UU, or are you saying that since it's one-of-a-kind (unlike Quag vs Swamp, where you'll never see the former in OU) it's likely to be used in either environment? I'm guessing the latter, in which case I agree that it should be considered for UU, but so should any pokemon that are similar to other OU pokemon. IMO, UU is already different enough from OU in enough ways that there's no way it's becoming "OU lite" like some people seem to be worried about. Either way, it's not an argument as to why Leafeon is or isn't overpowered in UU, which is the point of this thread, but eh.

That does not remove it's ability to move.

True, and I never said it wouldn't. I just expressed doubt that it would.

 

[obi]

They have been thoroughly covered in the NFE thread.

Electabuzz retains it's speed advantage and lacks Motor Drive and is generally used differently than Electivire. It stays around in UU.

Lacking Motor Drive is not an argument in favor of Electabuzz. When we say Pokemon are "distinct", we mean it can do something better, so lacking something is irrelevant.

 

[Lee]

Very true Obi, I pointed that out a few pages ago when Yanma was suggested because he could use Compoundeyes. I do believe Electabuzz is good to go in UU though, as I said a few pages back:

Electabuzz is fine by me, not just because he has superior speed, but because he is a very different Pokemon to Electivire. Whereas Electivire tends to be a physical attacker, Electabuzz is very much a special attacker. Both can run mixed sets, but they can still be independnt of each other. In fact...Electabuzz is much closer to a UU Raichu than a UU Electivire.

Dusclops on the other hand, is most likely too good for UU and has no worthy distinguishing features from his evolution.

Also, on the Leafeon subject...I've done some testing myself and have watched over a few of Shiny Oddish's battles and I'm of the opinion that it needs more testing. Sometimes it has appeared to be game-breaking in UU, but on other occasions it has been Ice Beam fodder and constantly switching out. I'm sorry, I can't give a solid opinion on this one, but sometimes playing Pokemon gives a better answer than playing Theorymon.

Then of course there is Haze/Roar which stops it doing its job ...

Well, Haze does. Roar doesn't, as Leafeon will often pack Roar himself. Also, a lot of Hazers are Water type, and will be met with a swift, Swords Danced Leaf Blade.