DP Weezing

[Colonel M]

Analysis: www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/weezing

Redone - May 24th, 2008.

[SET]
name: Physical Wall
move 1: Flamethrower
move 2: Thunderbolt / Hidden Power Ice
move 3: Will-O-Wisp
move 4: Pain Split
item: Leftovers
ability: Levitate
nature: Bold
EVs: 196 HP / 252 Def / 60 SpA

[SET COMMENTS]
<p>Weezing, unfortunately, gained nothing new coming into Diamond / Pearl. However, he still remains as a solid physical wall thanks to his 120 Defense stat and a decent recovery move. With only one weakness and a handful of resists, Weezing is an excellent choice for walling. Flamethrower is the main choice in here as with the EV spread suggested Heracross is 2HKO'd by it and also helps destroy Swords Dance Lucario. Thunderbolt can 2HKO Gyarados easily while Hidden Power Ice 2HKOs Garchomp and Salamence. Just watch out for Yache Berry.</p>

<p>Speaking of Weezing, there is one advantage to using him over a lot of the physical walls: Will-O-Wisp. Swords Dance Lucario giving you the blues? Sick of AgiliGross tearing through your team left and right? Bet you're really mad about that Yache Chomp working so well, right? Will-O-Wisp adds a nice Attack cut, which in turn makes him more effective for walling. It sounds great and all until you hit his recovery move. Pain Split is not horrible, but definitely inferior to moves like Recover and Roost. The thing about Pain Split is that you have to rely on opponents with high HP. Otherwise, it's not quite effective.</p>

[SET]
name: Sleep Talker
move 1: Rest
move 2: Sleep Talk
move 3: Flamethrower
move 4: Thunder / Will-O-Wisp
item: Leftovers
ability: Levitate
nature: Bold
EVs: 196 HP / 252 Def / 60 SpA

[SET COMMENTS]
<p>In response to Weezing's crappy recovery, there's this move set as well. Not quite as effective as the first set since it steals another useful move slot for Sleep Talk, but definitely works. Thunder has a nice 30% chance of paralysis while Will-O-Wisp softens physical sweepers.</p>

[Other Options]
<p>Weezing has two suicidal moves that are useful: Explosion and Memento. The former will do massive damage to your opponent while Memento lowers Attack and Special Attack stats sharply. Sludge Bomb is the best STAB he has which can still hit Gyarados neutral and also hit some physical Dragons (excluding Garchomp and Flygon) for neutral damage. Taunt is a move that also can work with Weezing, but fights for a move slot. Fire Blast is another option but the accuracy can be a big turn off and Flamethrower can 2HKO Heracross anyways. Haze is a great move that prevents other Pokemon from raising their stats; however, it would normally be used to lower Attack and Will-O-Wisp easily does that with the extra effect of residual damage.</p>

<p>Other than Hidden Power Ice, Grass, Fighting, and Flying are also decent considerations. Hidden Power Grass handles Rhyperior and physical Swampert well, Fighting takes care of Tyranitar, and Flying OHKOs Breloom and does more damage to Heracross than any Fire Blast could accomplish.</p>

<p>Black Sludge can be used over Leftovers if Item Clause is a problem. However, you don't want a Trick user to re-Trick the Sludge onto your wall, so stick with Leftovers.</p>

[EVs]
<p>The EVs stated above is the best for Weezing. The HP EVs generate a nice Leftovers recovery while the Special Attack EVs help 2HKO Heracross with Flamethrower, provided that there is some residual damage helping you. You can swap the Defense and HP EVs if you want to maximize the effect of Pain Split.</p>

[Opinion]
<p>Smogon's mascot didn't see much improvement coming into the Diamond / Pearl era, and the physical / special split of attacks make Weezing's life more complicated. Having half of his physical movepool go special doesn't help either. Then there's the mass amount of Sandstream, Stealth Rock, and Heatran that make him hard to become useful. And then there's Salamence, Heracross, Gyarados, and Medicham who recived more powerful moves to abuse Weezing even more. And let's not forget the dreaded Heatran who instantly makes Weezing become useless. Despite all the negatives that Weezing has, he still can at least counter a lot of Pokemon effectively and is one of the safest counters to a huge threat: Swords Dance Lucario.</p>

[Counters]
<p>Heatran is the best Weezing counter ever. It's as if Gamefreak thought Weezing was doing a little too well and felt like adding something that completely makes it useless. This robotic, walking volcano gets boosted by Will-O-Wisp and other Fire moves, is immune to Sludge Bomb, resists Explosion and royally screws Weezing over with STAB Fire moves.</p>

<p>Any Fire type, especially with the Flash Fire ability, makes quick work of Weezing and abuse the free switch-in. At least Houndoom can't Pursuit Weezing much more, but still can Nasty Plot in its face and laugh at everything else thrown at him.</p>

<p>Just about any decent Special Attacker will take Weezing down with little effort. Synchronize is a nasty trait to come into because Will-O-Wisps bounce back at you. And finally, Blissey still can take anything Weezing tosses at her, aside from Explosion. Pain Split gets pretty annoying however.</p>

 

[cornflake]

(1) "Fire Blast is much preffered here"

It's prefered. Confusing, eh?

(2)"And of course Sleep Talking is the only other way you can efficiently recover without being screwed."

I don't really like the sound of this sentence. Try: "Sleep Talking is the Weezing's other option for healing, and may be preferable due to Pain Split's unreliablity."

(3)"The Special Attacker could loose some of the Attack if"

It's lose. Loose is an adjective.

(4)"but the thing is you don't always want a Trick-user to re-Trick on something like, say Blissey."

Very informal language. Try: "however, you won't want a Tricker to re-Trick the Sludge on another of your walls."

(5) "and in order from Exploding from a Rock, Steel, or Ghost type"

Try: "and in order to keep from Exploding on a Rock, Steel, or Ghost type"

(6) Good idea removing Sludge Bomb as a standard option, it really has no advantages over Fire Blast except maybe STAB, but an SE Fire Blast is still more powerful (and you should only be using it when it's SE).

 

[Colonel M]

Sorry, there are some things I just can't spell that can be simple. Thanks for finding these, I'm fixing them right away.

 

[the Lexx]

HP Ice is useful for Physical Dragons.

Fire Blast is much preffered here over Flamethrower as Fire Blast can at least 2HKO Heracross, while Flamethrower only does roughly 35%

Are you sure that you got your calculations right? Fire Blast is only about a 25% increase from Flamethrower.

 

[Colonel M]

Usually you don't want your Weezing to switch into a Swords Dancing Garchomp, but if they feel foolish enough, they can take a hike of being a 2HKO. I guess I could write it could help combat physical dragons mostly.

Calc:

Flamethrower versus 0 / 0 Neutral Heracross: 42 - 49%
Fire Blast: 53 - 62%

So technically I was wrong on Flamethrower, sorry, rush calculation I guess. Fire Blast, however, is more prefered as I said, as you have a better chance of a 2HKO. If you want to argue against this, go ahead, but Weezing seriously needs the power now in D/P in my opinion.

 

[the Lexx]

Fire Blast is definitely optimal, I was just wondering about the Flamethrower calculation.

HP Ice is useful against Subbing variants who you otherwise can't touch; I didn't say it was the best option, but that it has its use and is worth consideration.

 

[Jediment]

Just a quick note, since I'm a crazy maniac for spelling: it's preferred.

 

[Sunday]

[SET]
name: Sleep Talker
move 1: Rest
move 2: Sleep Talk
move 3: Sludge Bomb
move 4: Thunder / Will-O-Wisp
item: Leftovers
ability: Levitate
nature: Bold
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
<p>Sleep Talking is another option for Weezing and may be preferable due to Pain Split's unreliability. Thunder and Will-O-Wisp will depend on whether you want a good chance at paralysis while also causing damage or just a nice burn rate. Sludge Bomb is an okay move, but if you want you can always use Fire Blast, but make sure you use it with Thunder.</p>

Spelling bolded, rewording underlined

 

[Colonel M]

Made changes with prefer (God, I hate this word now) and some of the nitpicks Lord Sunday had. Thanks seriously for the grammar nitpicks guys, really do appreciate it.

Do I dare mention that he could possibly be a weather changer? I mean, he has the possibility of being used as a decent Sunny Day user since he has Fire Blast... I'd only put it under Other Options however.

 

[Sunday]

[SET COMMENTS]
<p>Sleep Talking is another option for Weezing and may be preferrable due to Pain Split's unreliability.

One "r" in preferable.

Pain Split isn't the best recovery move, but does what it needs to be done as far as Weezing healing and can even have the benefit of puncturing some of Blissey's massive HP stat.</p>

that or "has the benefit"

 

[Colonel M]

Got them both. I hate that word now, prefer. >_>;

 

[Fishin]

Weezing's many resistances and good defensive stats deserve to be suggested as a physical wall.

This sentence sounds pretty awkward - Weezing is the special wall, not his defenses and resistances.

Pain Split isn't the best recovery move, but does what it needs to be done as far as Weezing healing

"Does what it needs to be done" sounds really awkward, and "Weezing healing" doesn't sound the greatest either. Possibly rephrase it to "Pain Split isn't the best recovery move, but it's Weezing's best option for healing" or something along those lines.

and even have a benefit of puncturing some of Blissey's massive HP stat.

I believe this should be "And even has the benefit".

This set is more for the suprise value than a standard use for Weezing.

Surprise, not suprise.

Too bad his physical movepool took a dump back in Advanced.

Somewhat of a confusing line - I'd try to make it more clear, like "His physical movepool has gotton a lot worse since Advance". And...isn't it usually referred to as Advance, RS, or ADV? I don't think I've heard it referred to as Advanced before.

Anyways, your main attack is Sludge Bomb and Explosion, and in order from Exploding accidentaly

Your main attacks, not your main attack. Accidentaly is supposed to be spelled accidentally.

onto a Rock, Steel, or Ghost type, there's some additional coverage here.

I would really say that they're just there for additional type coverage, the fact that they're there to hit things that your main attacks aren't particularly effective on should be pretty obvious.

 

[Colonel M]

I'm not 100% sure on how we use Advanced as either ADV or RS or anything of the sort. I'll put ADV because I've seen it like that a couple of times in the analysis. I guess there's more editing to be done.

I'm not sure about if it was for coverage or just for eliminating those that resist Explosion and Sludge Bomb. I guess I will put a note into it myself that it is for both coverage AND to allow yourself to hit opponents with Sludge Bomb / Explosion.

 

[Lee]

I'm not 100% sure on how we use Advanced as either ADV or RS or anything of the sort.

ADV generally refers to the entire RSEFRLG period, but RS is more confined to the Ruby/Sapphire period. EG, no Fire Red/Leaf Green/Emerald Pokemon/moves etc. ADV would be the correct term.

Sludge Bomb should be an option on the first set as it is a reliable STAB move and is Weezings best hope of damaging neutral targets. It can be listed as a / move next to Thunderbolt.

In my opinion, Life Orb needs to be completely removed as an option from the Special Attacker set. Weezing needs the Leftovers, but perhaps more importantly, Life Orb completely ruins the surprise factor of the set - which is really all that set has going for it to be fair. The EV's seem to be configured to OHKO Blissey without the aid of a Life Orb anyway.

 

[Colonel M]

Alright then, I'll put Life Orb down in Other Options. I thought it was useful to boost Explosion and could at least ditch the Attack EVs for some more HP. Actually I wanted to try Pain Split somewhere on the set too, but I don't think that's quite possible.

In defense of Sludge Bomb in the first set: I thought hard about this at first and then ditched it. First off, when will Sludge Bomb be useful? It's decent neutral STAB, yes, but it also poses a threat of more "free switch-ins". Heatran would then just more than LOVE to come in on a Weezing, since he would, in some cases, resist 3 of his moves (2 if the user uses Haze over WoW). Thunderbolt has too many merits over Sludge Bomb nowadays, and unless I could at least have a little bit of a reason of why it should be listed, I'm listening. It's fine in the second and third set at least.

 

[Lee]

Wow, I just looked at the analysis and I gotta agree that it needs reworked. Sludge Bomb, Haze and Will-o-Wisp on the same set seems to restrict him too much.

Fair point re: Sludge Bomb. It does 3HKO Heracross, but the chance of activating his Guts is just too high. But there are so many more physical attackers out there who Weezing can counter.

He's a fair shot against standard DDMence - Sludge Bomb deals up to 41%, making it a nice follow up to Will-o-Wisp. It's also his best option against Machamp, Breloom, Infernape and Arcanine. Those three cannot be hit by Will-o-Wisp (assuming Guts Champ), so will need to be beaten down the old fashioned way. Other random physical attackers like Ambipom and Electivire are also hit hardest by Sludge Bomb.

It isn't a completely worthless option, but I understand that it struggles for a place. I wouldn't pick it tbh.

 

[Colonel M]

I do have an idea. I thought instead I could split Haze and WoW into different sets. This way, Haze can go with Sludge Bomb, and WoW can go with whatever. For a quick peek:

Physical Wall: Haze
- Sludge Bomb
- Thunderbolt
- Haze
- Pain Split

Physical Wall: Will-O-Wisp
- Fire Blast
- Thunderbolt
- Will-O-Wisp
- Pain Split

? I could even throw Hidden Power Ice in the first set or Hidden Power Ground in the second set.

 

[Anti]

I'd defenietely drop some defensive EVs for Sp. Attack to ensure a 2HKO on Heracross with Flamethrower, prob'ly by dropping Weezings HP to 320. Considering Heracross can 3HKO you with Stone Edge if you activate its Guts, hitting it is crucial. If it got its Guts activated from WoW Flamethrower is still the superior option because the Burn damage will make Flamethrower a 2HKO, even without Sp. Attack EVs.

HP Ice definetely deserves a mention as Weezings only way to take on SubChomp.

Hm. Even with Weezings HP dropped to 320, max Defense and the rest (60) in Sp. Attack, Flamethrower still does min. 45%, max 52%. That atleast gives you a shot. Ensures a 2hko with Stealth Rock.

You need a massive 160 Sp. Attack EVs to ensure a 2HKO on 4HP/Min Heracross with Flamethrower... lame. Something like 196 HP / 152 Defense / 160 Sp. Attack. but that's crap. I wouldn't mind a few Speed EVs to outrun Boah / no speed neutral T-Tar, either.

 

[Lee]

Hm. Even with Weezings HP dropped to 320, max Defense and the rest (60) in Sp. Attack, Flamethrower still does min. 45%, max 52%

What's why Weezing should always use Fire Blast. Given the power/accuracy relation between Fire Blast and Flamethrower, Fire Blast is always the better option.

 

[Anti]

I don't see why. If Heracross has Guts activated by Poison or Will-o-Wisp, the damage from that will put it in range for a Flamethrower 2HKO. Fire Blast can do that too, but it can miss and the extra damage won't make it a KO. If Heracross is Paralyzed, Weezing is faster and can kill it with Flamethrower anyway. If Heracross isn't statused, Weezing always wins.

This as well as Stealth Rock + 60 Sp. Attack Flamethrower ensures a 2HKO every time, which Fire Blast does not.

 

[Colonel M]

Back in my Magnezone edit, I was told ADV is supposed to be written out, so I'm going to do that as well today.

I'm sort of mixed as far as the EV investment ordeal. Fire Blast wouldn't need much EV investment while Flamethrower would need special attack EVs. However, in Anti's defense, he is right about that you can't afford to miss Heracross when he's burned. I think that if I do the seperate sets, with WoW, Flamethrower will be the superior option. I think I'll put those sets on right now.

 

[Anti]

Does anybody even use Haze on Weezing? What's it going to Haze? DD Mence can be burned and then Pain Splitted / Thunderbolted / HP Ice'd and be beaten. Gyarados can Taunt you (though it won't) but that's what you have Thunderbolt for. Garchomp can be burned too and pain splitted off its massive HP or hit with HP Ice (which you need for SubChomp if you're using Weezing as your Garchomp counter). Even if you can Haze SubChomp it'll beat you without HP Ice and you'll beat it with HP Ice even if you don't have Haze. DD Tar takes burn.

I really don't think there's a point in having a Haze set. If there is one I don't see how "Heracross will be coming in less on this one".

I really don't think Sludge Bomb would be a priority on a set though based on what Lee said it definetely deserves a mention in other options. Weezing is fighting for moveslots as is to take down the biggest threats of OU as is and Sludge Bomb doesn't hit any of them for more. Breloom can be taken down with Flamethrower, Salamence HP Ice, Infernape is usually mixed, etc.

TBH I'd drop the Special attacker set as it's pretty much a gimmick; Weezing has better things to do and lots of Pokemon do it better. Sleep Talk limits Weezings moveslots as well, I'd much rather mention Sleep Talk as "Sleep Talk can work on Weezing as a mroe reliable form of recovery though it will limit Weezings already valuble moveslots." in other options.

imo the entire weezing analysis should be

Physical wall
Flamethrower / Hidden Power Ice
Thunderbolt / Hidden Power Ice
Will-o-Wisp
Pain Split
Bold
196 Hp, 60 Sp. Attack, 252 Defense

Pick 2 of 3 for weezing to handle for your team: gyarados / offensive dragons / heracross.

other options

haze, sleep talk, attacking "x does it better".

 

[DeLorean]

[SET]
name: Physical Wall - Will-O-Wisp
move 1: Flamethrower
move 2: Thunderbolt / Hidden Power Ground
move 3: Will-O-Wisp
move 4: Pain Split
item: Leftovers
ability: Levitate
nature: Bold
EVs: 192 HP / 252 Def / 60 SpA

Here be noobyness. What's the point of hidden power ground over thunderbolt? Flamethrower seems to hit steels well enough.

I just want some justification / clarification. :)

 

[jrrrrrrr]

Hidden Power [Ground] makes Heatran (especially), Magnezone and Tyranitar think twice about coming in. Heatran is pretty much the perfect counter to Weezing, and nobody really likes switching into a Flash Fire boosted Heatran. (edit: I disagree with it being a main option as well, I was just answering Xiao's question. It eliminates any type coverage that Weezing could have.)

Rest should really be considered as an option on every set over PS, or at least mentioned in the Other Options section, due to Pain Split's unreliability.

 

[ryubahamut]

indeed, HP ground is an assured 2HKO against standard heatran. however, what i'm really finicky about is flamethrower against heracross, which is something that can be worked upon i suppose.