Metagame DPP Doubles OU

[ryo yamada2001]

Congratulations to... me for winning Livetour 8!

And congratulations to zee for winning Livetour 9!

As such, the unique winners streak was broken twice in a row. My apologies for not getting this post up earlier; I wanted to do a longer retrospective on my Livetour 8 win (even though I really just got lucky...) but real life got in the way! Alas, maybe next time :)
Thank you everyone for joining in these tournaments and shoutouts to Penter, Nido-Rus, Lolk, and bage1 for winning the scheduled oldgen roomtours in the meanwhile! Also everybody welcome our newest addition to the DPP DOU council: Farfromani!

Congratulations to all Livetour winners this month (Farfromani, zee, Mizuhime, and me). I've compiled all the usage stats on this spreadsheet. With another month of live tournaments and several rounds of DPP Kickoff behind us, I think it's time to make some VRs changes. Here are the current VRs and their usage stats in Livetours and Kickoffs respectively:

Current VRs w/ usage stats and performance

>>TIER 1<<
Latios 126-126 / 50.0%
Metagross 104-109 / 48.8%
Mew 115-100 / 53.5%
Rotom-Heat 99-87 / 53.2%
Tyranitar 66-72 / 47.8%

>>TIER 2<<
Gyarados 87-74 / 54.0%
Heatran 38-62 / 38.0%
Hitmontop 82-89 / 48.0%
Jirachi 33-28 / 54.1%
Raikou 82-70 / 53.9%

>>TIER 3<<
Azelf 16-18
Bronzong 44-40
Cresselia 39-30
Empoleon 15-30
Infernape 17-27
Latias 23-33
Machamp 19-13
Mamoswine 22-34
Rotom-Wash 8-8
Swampert 44-34
Togekiss 17-17
Zapdos 15-30

>>TIER 4<<
Abomasnow 11-15
Heracross 33-28
Kingdra 18-33
Marowak 13-14
Rhyperior 14-5
Scizor 15-16
Shaymin 4-6
Suicune 6-12

>>TIER 5<<
Aerodactyl 3-6
Alakazam 3-7
Blastoise 5-5
Breloom 4-10
Clefable 0-1
Dragonite 6-15
Dusknoir 5-5
Flygon 9-12
Hariyama 8-2
Ludicolo 12-13
Weavile 5-10
Wobbuffet 1-4

>>UR<<
Camerupt 9-0
Toxicroak 8-7
Gengar 6-20
Dusclops 13-8
Lucario 3-10
Clamperl 11-9
Starmie 3-9
Slowking 3-2
Lapras 3-3
Magnezone 2-5
Blissey 5-5
Roserade 2-2
Gliscor 5-9
Absol 1-4
Snorlax 1-6
Crobat 3-4
Salamence 3-9

VR NOMS:
Heatran down to 3
perennial losing Pokemon that struggles to weasel itself into its winning positions. all of the tier's primary threats either carry super effective coverage or trade favorably against it anyway (e.g. Latios, Tyranitar, Raikou). a middling speed tier and unfavorable typing means it requires speed control support but Trick Room favors different heavy hitters (Camerupt, Clamperl, Rhyperior); and Heatran doesn't fit as glue on generic teams w/ Thunder Wave support because it's a Fire-type that doesn't comfortably beat Steel-types and a Steel-type that doesn't comfortably switch in to Dragon-types. can be game winning behind a Substitute hence still tier 3, but the results speak for themselves

Heracross up to 3
fairly flexible to build w/ despite having one set. it wreaks havoc in the midgame with its excellent power and its coverage and speed-tier seals victories if preserved for endgames. many of the tier's most prominent threats e.g. Latios, (SD) Mew, Tyranitar, etc. die while there are very few checks that don't get 2hko'd in neutral. nevertheless limited to tier 3 because of its unfavorable matchups vs Rotom-Heat and Gyarados (Night Slash and Stone Edge are underwhelming), it's not always reliable due to Megahorn accuracy, and its limited to the Scarf set which makes it deadweight in a few matchups

Zapdos down to 4
its stats are bad because people keep bringing my outdated week 2 sample team and losing with it, but also nobody uses Zapdos on new teams anymore. it pales in comparison to the more prominent, better Electric-types in the tier: Raikou hits faster and has better supporting capabilities w/ Screens in addition to Thunder Wave, while Rotom(-Heat) outperforms Zapdos as a generic SpD check w/ Electric and Fire-type coverage. out of those three it is also the only one with a Stealth Rock weakness. there's some merit to Zapdos e.g. recovery and higher SpA but it just doesn't fit on team compositions as glue the way the others do

Clamperl, Dusclops, and Toxicroak up to 5
Clamperl is new flavor of the month because it bullies naïve teams lacking Rain checks with huge Water spam. nothing comes in safely on massive neutral Muddy Water hits while HP Electric and Ice Beam cover prevalent checks: nothing comes in safely once Clamperl gets going. but it needs a lot of dedicated support to get going: Clamperl is so frail that it cannot exist outside of Trick Room, is not nearly as overwhelming without Rain, and in general is a linear playstyle that predicates on a positive matchup. good enough as a matchup fish, but insufficient as anything more. Dusclops has been the main enabler for Clamperl.

Toxicroak is an interesting response to Clamperl and Rain in general. faster Fake Out stops Ludicolo, Low Kick 2HKO's enabling steel-types w/ rain dance like Bronzong, and Sucker Punch collects fast kills all the while deterring Kingdra etc from actually clicking Water moves in Rain.
see how Lolk maneuvers around the Ludicolo sample w/ Toxicroak + CM Latios here

 

[Teals]

Alright guys. Because I'm a big choker and keep throwing my matches in the dpp tournament and have no chance of winning now, I will be posting all of my good teams because I think they represent a different take on the meta all while being successful. (yes they are successful teams, have seen success in room tours and in tests) I'd also like to share my approach to the meta as I think offering a different perspective on teambuilding could be useful and could prove useful to some people. The big thing you will note is that there will be a lack of mew and raikou on these teams. Two very common pokemon that I almost always exclude from building. Reason being is I generally think teams of a "fatter" nature are the most consistent in this format. Not many pokemon have the ability to outright nuke things. That being said, I think the best way to approach building is to build defensively, and include 1 or two key things to check the powerhouses of the tier, i.e. latios, dd mons, and rain. I've found this approach to building to be generally consistent through watching replays of certain individuals in other formats, and figured I'd try my hand at it here. At the moment most people are running these hyper offensive sorts of teams that only make up for the lack of bulk with screens, that is if they choose to run screens at all. While these types of teams are fine and have seen success in their own right, it isn't uncommon to see trends like this struggle over time. A good example would be the bw dou metagame. That's the general philosophy behind my builds, and I hope you guys find success with these teams or can draw inspiration from my builds. Have a good one guys.

Subgross Semiroom

Importable

https://pokepast.es/5c87d9c3bfabbb1a

Specs Gyarados

Importable

https://pokepast.es/10ec4bdc2bba4191

Life Orb Zapdos

Importable

https://pokepast.es/09e954918c5aac89

Banded Aerodactyl

Importable

https://pokepast.es/035092ab627341e1

Machamp Semiroom

Importable

https://pokepast.es/39e154016d875831

 

[NinjaSnapple]

VR Nominations:

5 --> UR

Clefable has seen practically no usage since livetour 2 where it was only used 3 times with a fairly underwhelming 1-2 winrate. It is also completely outclassed in it's only niche as a follow me user by togekiss who has the same useful support moves with overall better stats and typing.

UR --> 4

Camerupt has proven itself to be a very effective choice on Trick Room teams. While lacking the same raw power as Heatran, it makes up for this by having a lower speed stat than almost every other Pokemon used in the tier so is able to fire off full power eruptions with very little risk. Camerupt has also had very impressive showing in the DPP Kickoff tour, so far having been used 10 times with a 100% winrate

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen4doublesou-689387
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen4doublesou-1848240090-goijcvymsh03or2zuekffj15as43wjppw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen4doublesou-1843780813-paomzjbqd7gaawq8yetxrm607h1azwppw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen4doublesou-1852347791-xzy3onw00jcafk3v7zrh44gek4t8kk5pw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen4doublesou-1852354897-mv287neey18p1x82hl4gzx8a2y16fyrpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen4doublesou-1843776007-b4pjeqg72vsgp3k6w82cpbyfz5lzhinpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen4doublesou-1859116492-7cgesc8tq3ha74juqtwp7zlz8myypznpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen4doublesou-1838423121-0eb2ycrveslqcuuzhbk1c7cz4x2rhytpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen4doublesou-1839060411-6jq5smijfcz7gb6i4yy3gwpgr4kk8p7pw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen4doublesou-1844605814-2xv1vww5cmh1i63ic6w12h3s697m9i7pw

 

[Farfromani]

Hi DPPers! I hope everyone is having fun with the game. Lately within the council there was a bit of a discussion over Snow Cloak, the signature ability of Glaceon and Froslass and the secondary ability of the more consistent Mamoswine, that effectively raises a Pokémon’s evasion stage by one under Hail.

(Art By Raemez depicting the three Snow Cloak users)
On a mere theoretical level, we’re facing the same uncompetitiveness-oriented issue as Garchomp’s Sand Veil. On more practical terms, however, the situation couldn’t be more different since the actual tournament usage and win-rate of hail-based teams is limited to say the least. Nevertheless, the Showdown ladder is plagued with Abomasnow + Froslass leads spamming Blizzard and some crafty trainers were able to optimize Mamoswine’s capacity of avoiding attacks thanks to a Substitute + Leftovers set (take a look at this replay to better understand its full potential).

Should then Snow Cloak be deemed ban-worthy? Here are some common arguments pro and against it.
Pro Ban:

• Banning the Sand Veil ability over simply banning Garchomp and leaving Snow Cloak legal is nothing but unnecessary double standards as Pokémon like Cacturne and Sandslash have no proven space in the metagame, just like Glaceon doesn’t.
• Substitute Mamoswine, aided with a strategic miss, can completely nullify the advantages provided by good positioning while being able to still effectively retaliate against possible checks thanks to its diverse movepool.
• While facing the Abomasnow + Froslass lead, even just a single miss during turn one might result in particularly hideous situations due to Blizzard’s power level and freeze chance. There are effectively a good 20-10% of opening turns when it is guaranteed that an incredibly unthoughtful and overall weak lead might be able to guide the team towards a decent advantage thanks to mere luck alone.
• The tools to nullify the chances of miss by removing the hailstorm during turn one are quite limited: Raikou is the only proven viable weather setter faster than Froslass, and the only other automatic setter aside to Abomasnow in the tier is Tyranitar. The other possible faster setters, which are almost 100% rain team material, are yet to be proven particularly viable.
• Mamoswine has proven solid and successful even outside the realm of hail teams, having won a live tournament in a goodstuff team while never aided by an opposing Abomasnow’s snow storm. By banning its most uncompetitive ability it will lose some of its potential but would still remain a more than respectable choice for a competitive team even with an almost useless ability like Oblivious.

Against Ban:

• With the exception of Mamoswine, no other Snow Cloak Pokémon has found consistent success on ladder play, during the live tournaments or during the Kickoff. It’s perfectly reasonable to think that during “serious play” the chances of having to deal with repeated Snow Cloak-based hax would be quite limited as the overall majority of players won’t use inconsistent picks like Frosslass or Glaceon.
• Mamoswine is actually quite frailer compared to Garchomp: while Chomp would have been able to survive some quite a lot of plausible supereffective hits in its day, Mamo’s definitely limited special defense makes it less threatening.

What’s your opinion on the uncompetitiveness of Snow Cloak? Do you have other arguments in favor or against the ban of this ability from the tier? Feel free to write a reply on the thread with your thoughts. I’ve also decided to create a pool to better understand how the community feels about the topic. Be sure to check it out!

 

[Teals]

Do not ban. To take advantage of Snow Cloak, one must either manually set up hail (lol) or use the combination of Abomasnow + Snow Cloak mon, all of which are bad. I also don't think using cheesy ladder strats as the driving force behind a ban is wise. If this saw actual use in tournament I'd be more inclined to agree.

 

[zee]

Thank you all for the nominations! We voted over the weekend, and these are the results!

Changes:
from 3 to 2
from 2 to 3
from 2 to 3
from 4 to 3
from 3 to 4
from 3 to 4
from 3 to 4
from 3 to 4
from 5 to 4
from 5 to 4
from UR to 4
from 3 to 5
from 4 to 5
from UR to 5
from UR to 5
from UR to 5
from 5 to UR
from 5 to UR

Votes

I'm really pleased with how this tier has been developing. Surely it won't be too long before more meta shifts occur and we'll vote again, so until next time... o7

 

[DaAwesomeDude1]

Yo I just played my last game in DPP tour and I ended up doing pretty well so I thought I'd dump the two teams I spammed. They're kinda outdated and I'm sure there are lots of adjustments that can be made to the spreads, so please let me know!

CM Cress

importable

Metagross @ Shuca Berry
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 120 HP / 248 Atk / 140 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Meteor Mash
- Earthquake
- Zen Headbutt
- Stealth Rock

Raikou @ Light Clay
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Light Screen
- Reflect
- Thunderbolt
- Thunder Wave

Cresselia (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 132 Def / 124 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 3 Atk / 30 SpA / 30 SpD
- Psychic
- Hidden Power [Ground]
- Calm Mind
- Rest

Heatran @ Leftovers
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Heat Wave
- Earth Power
- Substitute
- Protect

Hitmontop (M) @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 248 HP / 180 Atk / 80 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Fake Out
- Close Combat
- Sucker Punch
- Toxic

Gyarados @ Choice Band
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Waterfall
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- Payback

I originally built this team when DPP was first approved so a lot of things are super outdated but it still ended up transitioning pretty well. The idea was that CM Cress is hard to get off the field especially in a limited meta with not as many options. I paired it with broken screens Raikou to make it even harder to remove. I then added Hitmontop for Intimidate and Fake Out support to facilitate CMs. Gyarados and Metagross were added as generic strong attackers that covered things that can make it hard for Cress to set up, such as Tyranitar and Latios. I rounded it out with Heatran to cover Steel-types and because synergy and you can get free subs when the opponent is prioritizing taking out Cress. Unfortunately with how offensive DPP has evolved to, it's hard to get up more than 1 CM and snowball. I found that in a lot of games though, I can set up 1 CM pretty easily (against -2 Latios/Latias, Hitmontop, non-SD Mew, Raikou, etc) and that's usually enough for Cress to be annoying. From there, Cress just sits on the field and chips stuff while your strong attackers clean.

Lead SD Gliscor

importable

Gliscor @ Lum Berry
Ability: Hyper Cutter
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Ice Fang
- Swords Dance
- Protect

Raikou @ Light Clay
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Light Screen
- Reflect
- Thunderbolt
- Thunder Wave

Latios (M) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 3 Atk / 30 SpA / 30 SpD
- Draco Meteor
- Dragon Pulse
- Psychic
- Hidden Power [Ground]

Mew @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 72 HP / 184 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Fake Out
- Psychic
- Stealth Rock
- Shadow Ball

Gyarados @ Wacan Berry
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Waterfall
- Earthquake
- Dragon Dance
- Protect

Tyranitar @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Rock Slide
- Stone Edge
- Superpower
- Crunch

This team was built in the middle of DPP kickoff cause I wanted to use Gliscor. I think Gliscor is super underrated cause it does really well in to Raikou leads. Immunity to Intimidate alongside the lack of reliable ground resists allows Gliscor to do some big damage before it's taken out. From there, you can clean with Specs Latios or DD Gyarados. Scarf TTar and Shadow Ball Mew lets me snipe Rotoms and Latios for Gliscor and Gyarados.

I had a lot of fun playing this tier and I'm excited to (maybe) play it during Derby. Shoutouts to DPP council for creating and advancing this tier!

 

[Teals]

Big s/o to my friend Bless for doing this with me. I once watched an 8 hour video made by Wob that went over everything in the bw dou vr. It gave me a lot of insight into the tier and is what helped me get a start into bw dou. With this tier being fairly new, and no dex entries for mons, it can be hard for newer players to feel like they can get into the tier. So hopefully this can help out anyone wanting to learn, or is entertaining to anyone just wanting to hear our direct opinions on things. This was filmed 2 days before the most recent vr shift but we knew voting was happening so meta takes are still relevant. Probably the last serious post I make in regards to this tier. Have a good one guys.

 

[Actuarily]

Alright, now that I’ve lost in finals of the dpp Swiss kickoff I wanted to give a quick 2 teams that I built for the tour.

First, congrats to Farfromani, they’re clearly the best dpp dou player.

When I started the tier, everyone was talking about how there were so few water resists, so stuff like Empoleon and Swampert were really good. I took that and said let’s make it rain. So I think that rain is a REALLY strong archetype that every team has to be prepared for, and every player should have in their arsenal. So here’s two rain teams everyone can use:

https://pokepast.es/5c147dc0d8144f85

First is my Clamperl TR team. It’s inspired by Eragon who wrecked me with Clamperl in a roomtour, and I realized it would be super OP to build around. Basically Mew helps set up TR and then gets out of the way, bringing in the Perl with a lot of TR turns left. Dusclops is the preferred setter because it underspeeds Clamperl and can set Rain before Clamperl attacks. The combo of Helping hand + Rain + Clamperl destroys everything, and if your opponent is able to stall out TR, kingdra and Raikou come in the back and clean up. Marowak is there as a secondary TR attacker, that can also stop T waves from slowing down Kingdra & Raikou, and can brick break screens.

That all being said, this team was unstoppable for about two weeks, but now everyone has techs for it. But you can still play around those, most of them are just trying to stop you from getting TR up, usually with taunt/Trick a choice item. Mew gives you a lot of flexibility to beat these and get up TR.

https://pokepast.es/bfda890e1272b4b7

Here’s the second rain team, a bit more conventional of one. Gengar is an excellent lead, able to set rain, stop TR, and put damage on common leads like Mew/Latis/Metagross/Ttar/Rotom-H that can give rain trouble. Ludi is excellent at removing their first rain check, allowing Kingdra to clean up later. Jirachi is arguably the most reliable rain setter, able to live just about everything and then pivot out or start forcing flinches. T wave is really nice for the rain mirror. Scarf Heracross is also incredible at removing so many rain checks like Latis/Screens/Ttar/Aboma/Empoleon/sunny day Cress/etc. Lastly Raikou has roar to help against any other TR setters, or just set up sweepers. Having multiple rain setters is really good because many teams rely on pivoting Ttar in and out to stop rain, and you can just keep on setting it.

 

[zee]

I finished 5-1 in the DPP tour, my loss being a pretty brutal beating from qsns in round 3 or 4(?)

I only have one team I'd proud enough to share, which is my SD Mew team.



The team aims to overwhelm the opponent with offense and force favorable trades. None of the choices here are that surprising I don't think, it's just stacking a chain of offensive threats which really play off of each other's favorable and negative matchups well enough. I believe this to be the best team in my arsenal and I'd trust it in any matchup. Use Gyarados's Intimidate liberally and remember there's no game that DD Tyranitar can't come back from. If Twave spam picks up I think you can reasonably start swapping out the non-choice items for Lum Berry, but I was able to clutch up in the times I came across Twave spam in the tour. Don't really have any larger thoughts to share at the time, think I'll take a bit of a break from DPP until Derby. Thanks May for hosting and congrats Fede on the win!

 

[AIRedzone]

DPP Teamdump-ish

With the DPP Swiss tour ending, I wanted to share a couple of teams I had fun with (click on the team sprites for pastes).

(Weavile Swampert Semiroom)

This was basically the only serious team I built during the entire tour, having stolen Bless's teams for nearly every other round. The team was built to deal with GasaiYunoSan's fullroom team; it failed to do so solely because I made several poor plays right from the start. Nevertheless, in testing and later games, I realized I had actually put together a decently solid structure. The general idea is to pressure opponents by denying them speed control and hitting them hard with every slot.
Weavile is a great lead that matches up well into all the more common leads outside of The Boys. It provides blazingly fast Fake Out and Taunt, which shuts down any opposing speed control lead, and deals solid damage with its STABs (Night Slash crits bypassing intimidate is an added bonus).
Band Gliscor is an awkward partner to lead alongside Weavile, and is the one aspect of this team I'd like to workshop more. I'm not entirely sure why I picked that set beyond seeing Sunrose use it as a lead, but it does play an important role: it checks The Boys, Metagross, and most other mons that immediately threaten Weavile.
Swampert is what I built this whole team around - it shuts down all of Trick Room's heavy hitters with a highly spammable spread STAB, boosted to impressive levels by Choice Specs.
Cresselia offers bulk and enables the slow mode of the team. I gave it max Spa to keep the pressure on constantly, but it might be worth exploring a bulkier set with Thunder Wave. Shoutout to Teals for the idea of the Swampert-Cress core.
Mowtom pairs well with Swampert in destroying Trick Room breakers/sweepers. This was originally a Rotom-Heat, but Sunrose saw value in being able to shut down opposing Swampert/rain cores and I'm glad I went with his suggestion. Scarf Mowtom punishes Psychics and has a favorable matchup into other scarfers such as Heracross.
There's no reason not to put this guy on any team. Band provides ludicrous breaking power, Bullet Punch can finish off an unsuspecting opponent, and Explosion is Explosion.

Edit: Adding in a replay from a roomtour final that showcases some of these mons well


(Yellow Magic)

This one's an invention of Sunrose. The idea is to spam twave which tilts your opponent off the face of the earth gives your attackers space to blow holes into the opposing team. I had used this team a lot during the tour and got absurdly lucky with full paralysis to the extent that banking on Twave luck became part of my game plan. I am completely unable to play "honest" tiers such as XY, so I'm glad that we got a fresh haxgen in DPP.

Gyarados matched well many of the earlier weeks' leads, with Intimidate allowing it to survive most things outside of Raikou turn 1 and fire off a Twave. Roar provides useful counterplay to Trick Room/setup and Waterfall is a consistent source of damage that contributes to tilt through paraflinch.
As mentioned above, Gliscor has a good matchup into many common leads, allowing it to reliably set Stealth Rock and generate momentum with U-turn.
Blissey is an incredibly underrated mon that completely blanks every special attacker in the tier. Using the support from Gyarados and Gliscor to remove threats such as Metagross and Tyranitar, it gains the space to spread Twaves and spam Seismic Toss. It's been vital to my success in using this team.
These three together can kill everything in the tier, especially after Twave cripples scarfers or fastmons that can speed tie them.


Looking back, I wish I had taken this tour more seriously. The first few weeks coincided with the end of DPL, which led me to treat those first few matchups as just more games to play instead of something to prep for. I ended with a 4-2 record which was solid, but I felt I definitely could have reached higher with more effort. Once again I'd like to thank Bless, for I would not have won a single game without his teams and advice. My sincere apologies to all those I've haxed in the tour.

DPP DLC when?

 

[Teals]

I thought I wasn't going to make any more posts regarding this format but I remembered something I brought up to sunrose in our vr video. I want to bring up the topic of Rotom's tiering and propose a change in how it is tiered. In modern generations, each rotom form is ranked individually. This is how it is currently being done here. However I think all rotom forms should be categorized under one title being "Rotom-A." In this generation Rotom has the typing of Electric-Ghost, no matter which form it takes on. This means that despite what form you are running, rotom will do rotom things despite its form and the form you use could merely be used to bluff a certain move. I have exstensively used Rotom-Heat, Rotom-Wash, and Rotom-Mow to great success, and when thinking of where to rank them I get stumped as I don't view them as individual pokemon. The main difference is a coverage move that I may or may not even use. I typically add rotom to a team to check the standard things rotom checks, and pick form depending on the rest of the team. In standard DPP OU, Rotom is tiered collectively under "Rotom-A" and I think it's appropriate to do so here as well.

 

[Sunrose]

Hey what's up everyone! DPP swiss tour is over now so I'm going to post all the teams I used! Some of these teams were also used in the Sunday Live Tours so I hope you all enjoy reading through this!



I wanted to build a team around scarf Tyranitar and to also make sure I have answers to rain. I've come to realize that scarf ttar is one of the best mons in dpp; it outspeeds everything that's prominent in the meta(just fast enough to outspeed base 115 speed mons), gets rid of rain, traps psychics and ghost types with pursuit, tanks any hits from lati twins and knocks them out, breaks sash with sandstorm, etc. This isn't the optimal build but I love using unused mons(Moltres) because I can't help myself from trying out new stuff lol. I added Moltres to the team because I wanted another answer to steel types incase I lost rotom and I lowkey wanted to experiment with tailwind. It only last 2 turns but I think twind can be really good in the late game, especially with bulky mons with just enough speed to outspeed relevant threats.



Alakazam is a mon that I used before but mainly to support Metagross with Lum Berry by using swagger to increase its attack. Inner focus is a really good ability since I won't have to worry about getting faked out so I started thinking about using it as a lead mon to set up screens and it also has Ol' reliable taunt to shut down opposing teams screens/hazards/twave/trickroom since it's naturally faster than everything else with a base speed of 120. Screens really helps out dragon dance dnite and cm suicune and you don't really have to worry about status because Umbreon with heal bell helps out with that. Arcanine beats metagross and swampert with the combo of flamethrower+hp grass and also hinders physical attackers with intimidate and wisp. Dnite, Suicune, and Umbreon can deal with rain as well.



This is a team I built for AIRedzone to use vs GasaiYunoSan but he told me that they always use weather teams(Tyranitar+Abomasnow) so rip shedinja lmao. I decided to bring it anyways in the dpp swiss and it's kinda good haha. You basically just take out everything that could threaten shed so you can win the late game with it but if you want an optimized version of this team, I would recommend having mons with access to rapid spin, rain dance/sunny day, and anything to deal against mons that shed is weak too. Btw, Shed is also another good answer to rain teams :p



This team is me trying out new stuff(bulky Shaymin/Arcanine/stunktank) and its a pretty fun team to use. Sunny Day Nine, Synthesis Shaymin, Sub+Tpunch meta, Sucker Punch+Explosion Stunky. Swampert and Rotom are just good mons in general so yeah haha.



I think this is the start of when I started showcasing that dark type mons can be good. This is also when I started realizing that follow me is broken in DPP. So I present to you Follow Me Smeargle + Nastyplot Doom! The Boys(Ttar & Top) lead has died down and metagross/mew/rotom/ghost types/raikou/weavile/latis have taken over so I thought this lead could have a lot of potential. Smeargle is pretty cool because If I don't want to use follow me, I also have access to fake out and spore; 3 of the best moves in 1 mon. Smeargle is still weak though :( so you have to be careful in deciding what move to use. This team used to have Latias and Rotom-Heat but it was too weak to Tyranitar so I swapped them out for Tyranitar and Metagross!



I took an ADV team and made alterations so it can be playable in DPP. That pretty much sums up this team haha



I built this team in the first month of DPP and I still like it to this day. I wanted to make a sand team after Garchomp got banned and this is also around the time that Metagross and Heatran started rising up. This the best I could come up with and I haven't made any changes to it since then. I like this team a lot tbh so you should try it out!



Another early DPP team I built that I bring in the Sunday live tours and test games! Skill swap cress paired with heatran is pretty cool haha. Snowman used to have grass whistle but I changed it to focus blast to have a way of hitting steel types. I would change hydro pump on cune for hp water since having 1 attacking move with 8pp can really hurt you in the long run.



This is the first time I brought a dark type mon that wasn't Tyranitar and it was kinda crazy... Absol! It's fragile but It has the super luck ability + paired with the item Scope Lens so it's bound to get some crits! I want to write more about the team but I'm getting tired so Ill add on 1 last thing and that is swagger+ Lum berry gross. It can still catch players off guard in the lead but it might be better in the back if you can take out the mons that threaten metagross.

I ended up going 4-2 in the DPP Swiss Tour and I'm glad I had another opportunity to try out new teams other than the Sunday Live Tours. Thank you bunnyy for hosting! Congratulations Farfromani for winning Swiss! And thank you to everyone else that takes time out of their day to play DPP games with me :) I'll see you guys at Derby!

 

[Teals]

Alright guys I keep saying I won't be posting in regards to dpp anymore but truth be told, I am very busy these days and only really care about this format right now. I recorded a video to go alongside this post, but I am moving across the country in hopes to better my life and to be frank, I just don't have the time I'd like to wait on my computer to render and upload an entire video. While I'd like to say I will be back in time for Derby, I know that I probably won't get drafted for one reason or another. Despite that, I made this to spark dpp discussion leading up to derby. This is a tier maker for your own dpp dou vr. I realized there wasn't one made, so I went ahead and made it hoping it makes it easier for you all to share your own vr. I included everything in the current vr, along with some fringe ur mons I either view as usable, or that I saw used in the dpp kickoff tour. If I missed your fringe mon of choice, I apologize. I will share my own vr too of course, but I'd like to preface by saying that there are some placements that some of you will find absurd. I want to make it clear that me doing that isn't a dig at anyone that view those mons differently. Without my video you won't be able to hear my reasoning for every mon but I assure you none of it is personal haha. But yeah, I'd encourage anyone that participated in dpp or has any interest in dpp to make their own and share it here. Have a good one guys.

Everything is ordered

cringe edit: rotom > latios haha

Tiermaker Link

https://tiermaker.com/create/personal-dpp-dou-vr-15352973

​

 

[ryo yamada2001]

DPP DOU Kickoff Usage Stats / Moves & Teammates / Combos
better late than never haha

DPP DOU

+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon            | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1    | Latios             |  203 |  50.25% |  52.71% |
| 2    | Metagross          |  172 |  42.57% |  50.58% |
| -    | Rotom-Appliance    |  171 |  42.33% |  52.05% |
| 3    | Mew                |  161 |  39.85% |  53.42% |
| 4    | Rotom-Heat         |  154 |  38.12% |  51.30% |
| 5    | Gyarados           |  140 |  34.65% |  55.00% |
| 6    | Hitmontop          |  127 |  31.44% |  47.24% |
| 7    | Raikou             |  124 |  30.69% |  54.03% |
| 8    | Tyranitar          |  107 |  26.49% |  40.19% |
| 9    | Heatran            |   89 |  22.03% |  44.94% |
| 10   | Swampert           |   70 |  17.33% |  58.57% |
| 11   | Bronzong           |   69 |  17.08% |  55.07% |
| 12   | Cresselia          |   58 |  14.36% |  58.62% |
| 13   | Latias             |   52 |  12.87% |  40.38% |
| 14   | Heracross          |   50 |  12.38% |  50.00% |
| 15   | Mamoswine          |   40 |   9.90% |  35.00% |
| 16   | Jirachi            |   38 |   9.41% |  47.37% |
| 17   | Kingdra            |   33 |   8.17% |  36.36% |
| 18   | Togekiss           |   30 |   7.43% |  50.00% |
| 18   | Infernape          |   30 |   7.43% |  36.67% |
| 20   | Empoleon           |   29 |   7.18% |  24.14% |
| 21   | Azelf              |   28 |   6.93% |  53.57% |
| 22   | Zapdos             |   27 |   6.68% |  22.22% |
| 23   | Machamp            |   24 |   5.94% |  62.50% |
| 24   | Gengar             |   22 |   5.45% |  13.64% |
| 25   | Rhyperior          |   18 |   4.46% |  66.67% |
| 25   | Ludicolo           |   18 |   4.46% |  50.00% |
| 27   | Gliscor            |   16 |   3.96% |  37.50% |
| 28   | Marowak            |   15 |   3.71% |  60.00% |
| 28   | Abomasnow          |   15 |   3.71% |  40.00% |
| 28   | Salamence          |   15 |   3.71% |  33.33% |
| 31   | Flygon             |   14 |   3.47% |  42.86% |
| 31   | Weavile            |   14 |   3.47% |  28.57% |
| 31   | Scizor             |   14 |   3.47% |  21.43% |
| 34   | Rotom-Wash         |   13 |   3.22% |  61.54% |
| 34   | Dragonite          |   13 |   3.22% |  30.77% |
| 36   | Hariyama           |   12 |   2.97% |  75.00% |
| 36   | Dusclops           |   12 |   2.97% |  66.67% |
| 36   | Clamperl           |   12 |   2.97% |  58.33% |
| 36   | Dusknoir           |   12 |   2.97% |  50.00% |
| 40   | Camerupt           |   11 |   2.72% |  90.91% |
| 40   | Shaymin            |   11 |   2.72% |  36.36% |
| 42   | Suicune            |    9 |   2.23% |  22.22% |
| 43   | Breloom            |    8 |   1.98% |  12.50% |
| 44   | Houndoom           |    7 |   1.73% |  42.86% |
| 44   | Aerodactyl         |    7 |   1.73% |  28.57% |
| 44   | Starmie            |    7 |   1.73% |  14.29% |
| 47   | Blissey            |    6 |   1.49% |  66.67% |
| 47   | Crobat             |    6 |   1.49% |  50.00% |
| 47   | Blastoise          |    6 |   1.49% |  50.00% |
| 47   | Snorlax            |    6 |   1.49% |  16.67% |
| 47   | Smeargle           |    6 |   1.49% |  16.67% |
| 52   | Chinchou           |    5 |   1.24% |  60.00% |
| 52   | Gligar             |    5 |   1.24% |  60.00% |
| 52   | Lucario            |    5 |   1.24% |   0.00% |
| 55   | Porygon2           |    4 |   0.99% |  50.00% |
| 55   | Honchkrow          |    4 |   0.99% |  50.00% |
| 55   | Rotom-Mow          |    4 |   0.99% |  50.00% |
| 55   | Magnezone          |    4 |   0.99% |  25.00% |
| 55   | Alakazam           |    4 |   0.99% |   0.00% |
| 55   | Forretress         |    4 |   0.99% |   0.00% |
| 61   | Toxicroak          |    3 |   0.74% |  66.67% |
| 61   | Makuhita           |    3 |   0.74% |  66.67% |
| 61   | Dugtrio            |    3 |   0.74% |  33.33% |
| 61   | Sneasel            |    3 |   0.74% |  33.33% |
| 61   | Togepi             |    3 |   0.74% |  33.33% |
| 61   | Wobbuffet          |    3 |   0.74% |   0.00% |
| 67   | Roserade           |    2 |   0.50% | 100.00% |
| 67   | Jynx               |    2 |   0.50% | 100.00% |
| 67   | Gastly             |    2 |   0.50% | 100.00% |
| 67   | Munchlax           |    2 |   0.50% | 100.00% |
| 67   | Porygon            |    2 |   0.50% | 100.00% |
| 67   | Clefable           |    2 |   0.50% |  50.00% |
| 67   | Kabutops           |    2 |   0.50% |  50.00% |
| 67   | Lapras             |    2 |   0.50% |  50.00% |
| 67   | Electrode          |    2 |   0.50% |  50.00% |
| 67   | Omastar            |    2 |   0.50% |  50.00% |
| 67   | Uxie               |    2 |   0.50% |   0.00% |
| 67   | Registeel          |    2 |   0.50% |   0.00% |
| 67   | Entei              |    2 |   0.50% |   0.00% |
| 67   | Absol              |    2 |   0.50% |   0.00% |
| 67   | Kangaskhan         |    2 |   0.50% |   0.00% |
| 67   | Parasect           |    2 |   0.50% |   0.00% |
| 67   | Abra               |    2 |   0.50% |   0.00% |
| 67   | Scyther            |    2 |   0.50% |   0.00% |
| 85   | Mismagius          |    1 |   0.25% | 100.00% |
| 85   | Porygon-Z          |    1 |   0.25% | 100.00% |
| 85   | Shiftry            |    1 |   0.25% | 100.00% |
| 85   | Manaphy            |    1 |   0.25% | 100.00% |
| 85   | Skuntank           |    1 |   0.25% | 100.00% |
| 85   | Misdreavus         |    1 |   0.25% | 100.00% |
| 85   | Slowking           |    1 |   0.25% | 100.00% |
| 85   | Moltres            |    1 |   0.25% | 100.00% |
| 85   | Miltank            |    1 |   0.25% |   0.00% |
| 85   | Regigigas          |    1 |   0.25% |   0.00% |
| 85   | Ambipom            |    1 |   0.25% |   0.00% |
| 85   | Mr. Mime           |    1 |   0.25% |   0.00% |
| 85   | Spiritomb          |    1 |   0.25% |   0.00% |
| 85   | Gastrodon          |    1 |   0.25% |   0.00% |
| 85   | Gorebyss           |    1 |   0.25% |   0.00% |
| 85   | Celebi             |    1 |   0.25% |   0.00% |
| 85   | Crawdaunt          |    1 |   0.25% |   0.00% |
| 85   | Drifloon           |    1 |   0.25% |   0.00% |
| 85   | Diglett            |    1 |   0.25% |   0.00% |
| 85   | Houndour           |    1 |   0.25% |   0.00% |
| 85   | Magnemite          |    1 |   0.25% |   0.00% |
| 85   | Bellsprout         |    1 |   0.25% |   0.00% |

Once again congratulations to Farfromani for their great performance in this tournament and thank you to everyone who participated!

 

[zee]

We've updated the Sample Teams and the Viability rankings!

VR Changelong:

Rises
Bronzong 4 -> 3
Gliscor UR -> 5

Drops
Heatran 2 -> 3
Latias 2 -> 3
Empoleon 3 -> 4
Jirachi 3 -> 4
Machamp 3 -> 4
Azelf 4 -> 5
Breloom 4 -> UR
Mamoswine 4 -> 5
Marowak 4 -> 5
Scizor 4 -> 5
Shaymin 4 -> 5
Toxicroak 4 -> 5
Weavile 4 -> 5
Abomasnow 5 -> UR
Blastoise 5 -> UR
Dusknoir 5 -> UR
Flygon 5 -> UR

 

[zee]

posting my pre derby/dpp cup vr with some hot takes that may anger the masses. at this time i dont feel it is responsible to add additional commentary

Tier 1:

Cresselia
Latios
Tyranitar

Tier 2:

Gyarados
Metagross
Mew
Raikou
Rotom-A

Tier 3:

Heatran
Hitmontop
Infernape
Rhyperior
Swampert
Scizor
Zapdos

Tier 4:

Bronzong
Clamperl
Empoleon
Heracross
Kingdra
Latias
Ludicolo
Machamp

Tier 5:

Camerupt
Dusclops
Dusknoir
Gastrodon
Gliscor
Hariyama
Jirachi
Roserade
Snorlax
Steelix
Suicune
Togekiss

EDIT: Edit of shame, t4 empo t5 rose after laptops almost gave me the business

 

[zee]

well seems like my previous post sparked some discussion, so now we've got a formal VR update pre derby & dpp cup!

Rises:
Cresselia 3 -> 2

Cresselia's wide movepool and high stats make it extremely effective at using a lot of important moves for teams to better position their offense. Trick Room works well with slow attackers like Tyranitar, Rhyperior, Metagross, and Heatran, but it also makes a great user of Icy Wind and Thunder Wave to facilitate faster offense. Helping Hand also is a huge boost to any offensive threat, but gets really scary on nukes like Specs Latios.

Infernape 4 -> 3

Infernape's Speed and offensive coverage have pushed it back into the metagame. While it's just a bit too weak to OHKO neutral hits and is walled by Gyarados unless running Electric coverage, Fire/Fighting is just too good into the metagame's current landscape. Also makes for a decent Choice Scarf user.

Rhyperior 4 -> 3

DPP DOU has been missing its reliable Ground-type that other generations have to rely on, and the rise of Thunder Wave in the metagame has necessitated more immunities. While Rhyperior can actually redirect Thunder Wave with Lightning Rod, Solid Rock is currently what's got people talking, allowing it to withstand hits from threats like Metagross and Hitmontop and fire back with big damage. Makes a great 2 'mon Trick Room core with Cresselia.

Clamperl 5 -> 4

This rise is a symptom of more players recognizing the legitimacy and deadliness Clamperl teams have if they're able to get their setup going. Do not underestimate Clamperl when building your teams!

Ludicolo 5 -> 4

Ludicolo rises to meet its partner in crime Kingdra in tier 4. Most players agree rain is a tier 4 archetype.

Scizor 5 -> 4

Scizor is seeing a rise from the dead, most notably as a fast pivot with Choice Scarf U-turn to prey on Latios, but Swords Dance and other sets are popping up too. Definitely a legit threat that went under the radar for too long.

Zapdos 5 -> 4

Zapdos boasts a strong Thunderbolt and gets to spam Thunder Wave just like Rotom-A, but comes with the benefit of a bit more speed, reliable recovery in Roost, and no weakness to Tyranitar's Pursuit.

Drops:
Metagross 1 -> 2

Metagross to tier 2 is something I've been on for a while, but I think more people are starting to get it as we see Fire-types come back into the metagame and the near disappearance of the Tyranitar + Hitmontop lead it rose to prominence off of countering.

Mew 1 -> 2
Rotom-A 1 -> 2

Both of these two definitely suffer from the rise of Pursuit Tyranitar as a notable threat, while bulky Mew sets have started to compete with Cresselia for a Psychic-type utility option.

Latias 3 -> 4

Latias is just supremely outclassed by its blue twin unfortunately, though there's real niche in running Double Lati or using Calm Mind Latias for its higher defenses.

Togekiss 3 -> 4

The tier doesn't have an abundance of setup sweepers reliant on Follow Me support, and even the ones that do are decently self sufficient or may prefer dual screens. Air Slash in a Thunder Wave metagame is terrifying and it can redirect Fake Outs though.
Suicune 4 -> 5

Sweeping with Calm Mind is hard in a tier with so many Electrics, immediate offensive presence is fairly middling.

Alakazam, Clefable, Dragonite, Marowak, Toxicroak, Weavile 5 -> UR

low tier sweep

 

[ryo yamada2001]

I love DPP DOU a lot. It's the best competitive experience in Doubles right now. It has most of the familiar modern Doubles mechanics which makes it easily accessible, but it's minor movepool and mechanics changes shapes a wholly unique metagame profile and identity that makes it its own thing. DPP is so satisfying to play: its high power level makes for a dynamic, fast metagame that makes getting reads correctly highly rewarding, but its delicately balanced enough to highly value long-term board positioning and proper planning. The metagame has a number of strong options that will always form a consistent top tier, but none of them put a significant strain on teambuilding, which allows for a lot of builder opportunities. Every few weeks a new revelation of trend emerges which briefly reforms the metagame's understanding, making it a highly rewarding tier for those with a keen eye and aptitude for building. The tier is fiercely competitive, rife with innovation from top players and opportunities for newer players: an easily approachable and understandable tier with a tremendous skill ceiling we're yet to uncover!! Every player could be the best and I'm really looking forward to the Derby representatives because I could name a dozen viable candidates :)

The only downside to this tier is that it's not always as easy to find games for it, which is why I'm proposing a daily ladder hour! Between 11pm and 12am +2 I will try to rally people to get on ladder, so everybody has equal opportunities to get introduced to and improve at DPP DOU! The last two days we've ran this successfully, rallying about a dozen talented players which makes for great practice. I've made a list of people who I'll ping for Ladder Hour in the Doubles Discord; let me know if you want to be on this list also :) I hope to see you all on the DPP ladder!!

Also for transparency's sake, here's the individual pre-Derby VR votes:

Hide

 

[qsns]

personal VR / thoughts. tiers are roughly ordered

>>Tier 1<<
Latios
Metagross
Tyranitar

>>Tier 2<<
Gyarados
BIG BOSS
Mew
Raikou
Swampert
Cresselia

>>Tier 3<<
Bronzong
Scizor
Zapdos
Rotom-Heat
Heracross
Heatran
Clefable

>>Tier 4<<
Empoleon
Jirachi
Hitmontop
Togekiss
Suicune
Machamp

- Latios needs to be looked at in a suspect test. There is very little reason not to use Specs Latios, as it OHKOs most neutral targets and offers an incredible amount of defensive utility against anything outside the Big 3. Personally, I think Latias would be a lot healthier for the tier, as Latios barely reaches OHKOs without ch*p and Latias makes you work more for it, while still being the same positive "progress making" force in the tier. Not sure exactly how we're going to organize a test, probably will happen post-derby, so please message on Discord/post here if you have thoughts

- I don't think Twave is nearly as powerful as it would be without Latios. Most of the Pokemon who run it don't have other ways to effectively punish Latios for taking a Draco kill (Gyarados, sometimes Raikou, Cress, Zapdos, Mew). I also think that people are probably underpreparing for TWave and effective teams have good ways to punish it.

- I severely overestimated Rotom-A in my last VR voting. There are a lot more Ground-types that have been seeing use independent of countering Rotom, Latios deletes offensive sets instantly, and Tar is pretty omnipresent and shuts it down.

- Clef is really cool!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Magic Guard in Gen 4 allows you to not get full para'd so it can be a TWave absorber/deterrent to defend your other pieces. Magic Guard also increases its effective bulk a ton in Sand and against Stealth Rock, giving it much higher longevity than other support Pokemon such as Mew and Cresselia despite lesser bulk.

Tier is super fun and heavily, heavily momentum based, and also relatively balanced (if a bit top heavy). have had a lot of fun building in derby and playing in cup so far.

 

[Farfromani]

Greetings DPPers! As some of you might already suspect due to the publication of this survey, within the council and the playerbase at large quite the animated discussion is taking place over the idea of removing Latios from the tier entirely.

(Illustration by the OG Ken Sugimori)

If you have played this tier even just a couple of times in the past few months, you most definitely faced a Latios before. The Eon Pokémon has found success since the early days of the tier and, while not facing painstaking scrutiny at the start due to the presence of the more cumbersome Garchomp, it became the most dominant force of the metagame since Livetour 6 and the latter part of the Kickoff where it accumulated an impressive 50.25% usage percentage and a 52.71% win-rate. Becoming an even more centralizing presence in recent days, as it was part of 6 out of 6 teams used during the DPP Cup Finals with an overall usage rate of 71.82% in the entire tournament, the ban of its signature Soul Dew clearly didn't stop its ascension to god-like greatness.

Latios' elite status is fortified by the presence of not one but multiple optimal sets able to significantly improve almost every archetype of team in the metagame: Choice Specs Latios is able to obliterate almost all neutral targets while 2HKO-ing even even perceived checks like Metagross and Cresselia with astonishing strong Draco Meteors and Choice Scarf is able to outspeed the entirety of the metagame including other CS users, guaranteeing the advantage of a strategic position to revenge-kill even the most bulky weakened Pokémon or to remove a particular insidious target in a 1v1 with very little opportunity to effectively respond against it. While suboptimal in a lot of teams even Life Orb and Lum Berry Latios found success both on ladder and during Derby, powerful testaments of the base stats and movepool of this Pokémon. At this point, deep down his own era of the DPPDOU metagame, it's possible to even argue that Latios isn't a threat a trainer should hard-counter with teambulding alone but an inevitable headache that has to be played around carefully on every match-up to avert as much damage as possible from his devastating attacks..

Here's some common talking points from the community curated by yours truly.

Pro Ban Arguments

1) Latios is just too centralizing. It finds a perfect spot in pretty much every team, including the more archetype-oriented ones such as Rain, Sand, SurfSpam and I would argue it might even have a place in semi Trick Room Teams as a resource to KO offensive Pokémon threatening the Trick Room Setter in the mid/late game or to simply pick the the strategic knock-out later on. There is literally no good reason to avoid using it and in most cases going for more niche picks is only detrimental, as seen with more recent teams that don't drop Latios for Latias but find use for both of them together.

2) Latios has effectively only two very solid hard counters: The immensely powerful Choice Scarf Tyranitar, who is able to outspeed and brutally destroy Choice Specs Latios with Crunch or Pursuit while taking "only" around 44.8 - 52.7% from Choice Scarf's Draco Meteor and Bronzong, able to resist its dual STAB perfectly thanks to its typing and special bulk retaliating with some heavy Gyro Balls. While it's awesome that our heroic Yayoi-era bell and rocky Godzilla can stand up in protection of all trainers tired of the Eon Pokémon, a lot of its perceived checks fail to do the same: Choice Scarf Rotom-H is unable to OHKO it while sometimes unable to survive a Draco Meteor even from the Choice Scarf variant, even Cresselia and Metagross take immense damage from Choice Specs while Pokémon like Heatran and Jirachi can be removed using Hidden Power. What’s left to do is just hope Latios won’t OHKO your designed support Pokémon of choice before you can cripple it with Thunder Wave or other forms of speed control, effectively the best transversal measure to deal with it. An argument can be made for more fringe builds like Choice Scarf Scizor, who is effectively able to easily resist a draco meteor from the Scarf variant while guaranteeing a solid OHKO with Bug Bite and a 50% range to kill with U-turn. The benefits of a Choice Band or a Sword Dance set are however too yummy to drop in favor of an item that won't benefit its iconic Bullet Punch.

3) The forceful removal of Latios from the tier will benefit healthier playstyles more oriented towards careful positioning rather than the more toxic "damage absorption and dagger" tactic in which once Latios enters the battlefield, its opponent is either forced to sacrifice a Pokémon in play in the hope to revenge kill or cripple it immediately after or has to resort into absorbing a Draco Meteor with a Steel type or with Cresselia or Gyarados to then face a less powerful version of the Eon Pokémon. This is however not always doable as, especially in the early stages of play, Latios can switch out and let a more defensive teammate tank the damage without too many risks.

More Neutral and Against Ban Arguments

1) It's very realistic to assume that, with Latios gone, his sister Latias will end up having a prominent role in the metagame similar to her brother's current one. While less prone to go fully offensive thanks to its excellent special bulk she still possesses a notable Special Attack stat of 110 and can effectively exploit even a higher number of different sets compared to the other member of the Eon duo including more support-oriented ones. In a similar fashion with how we're lamenting how centralizing and overpowered Latios is right now, we might just end up doing the same for Latias once the azure dragon will be gone.

2) Without the offensive presence of Choice Specs Latios, some defensive Pokémon will become definitely more powerful and difficult to eliminate consistently. Cresselia could stop investing heavily in Special Defense to better resist super effective damage from physical counters like Tyranitar and Scizor, as Ghost special STAB is almost limited to Rotom only, to stay on the field even longer. Swampert would be able to positively trade damage with almost every offensive presence in the tier and Hitmontop would be able to play a bigger role into a dual intimidate tactic alongside Gyarados with little punishment.

3) Without a fast, offensive presence able to easily KO most bulky support Pokémon, the metagame will drift towards a more Thunder Wave-oriented format with all the subsequent hax as rapidly knocking-out Pokémon like Cresselia, bulky variants of Rotom and Zapdos is clearly not easy. On this note, it's also worth saying that while Togekiss, the most common Follow Me user, doesn't like ending up paralyzed instead of tanking a particularly pivotal attack from the opponent, there are two Thunder Wave-immune follow me user in the tier that might help out with that: Clefable thanks to its Magic Guard ability cannot be paralyzed and Electivire gains 1 stage in speed every time it gets hit by an electric type move thanks to Motor Drive. Other than all the other more standard measures (Lum Berry, Safeguard, Heal Bell) are still available.

What do you think about Latios' role in the tier? Do you think it's a Pokémon worth a possible ban? Make sure to answer us here in the thread and/or in the survey!

 

[ryo yamada2001]

While Latios can be played around, as we see at the top level and now we're getting better at the tier, it is simply too oppressive both in-game and in the builder to justify it still being legal. The entire of fabric of building and playing DPP revolves around mitigating the loss opposing Latios incurs on your team, as counterplay is so limited due to its innate bulk and favorable typing; there's so few good Ice-, Ghost-, or Dark-types that can trade favorably against Latios, and few Steel-types can actually switch in and force Latios out. As most things can't meaningfully damage it, other common responses are to control it with Thunder Wave, such as with Gyarados and Cresselia, which perpetuates a feeling of instability and hax. But Latios is still a fearsome field threat even after it trades and gets paralyzed; I've seen plenty of -2 Latios deal ridiculous damage to punch holes through teams. In a metagame where stats and movepools are everything, Latios simply has more than the rest of them. Nothing comes close to its power level. I don't know if I'll be voting but if I did I would ban it.

In response to the neutral/anti-ban arguments:
1) Latias is so significantly less threatening than Latios and should not pose a problem. Croven vs fespy is a practical example of Latias's steep Special Attack loss; the things that are supposed to check Latios, such as Metagross, Tyranitar, and specially defensive Pokemon, are able to actually function as both switch ins and offensive threats. Latias is still a heavy hitter and no doubt viable, but there's a huge difference between Latios's sheer overkilling vs. Latias's more modest benchmarks. I see it sort of as Basculegion-F; still strong, but not as overwhelming, as Latias has to commit to Draco Meteor to resemble Latios damage (whereas Latios can often opt into Dragon Pulse instead) and its coverage no longer picks up what it wants so effortlessly.

2 & 3) I disagree with the suggestion that banning Latios could increase Thunder Wave usage. My hypothesis is that, while there would be more viable setup Pokemon and bulky support, Latios's absence would mean a less pressing need to check it with Thunder Wave, thus making Toxic a more viable option against the likes of Cresselia and Swampert. Furthermore, the likes of Tyranitar and Scizor lean towards Choice Scarf to check Latios, when they'd have more freedom to run Band/setup in a post-Latios metagame.

4) This wasn't mentioned but i've seen some talk of it: please do not free Darkrai, that is a terrible idea. Like Latios, it would come to re-define the entire metagame around building and beating Darkrai, except it is capable of running a greater variety of bullshit ass sets than Latios, which is something DPP's smaller viability list is simply not equipped to handle. Deoxys-S similarly I believe would be too powerful in other ways, and demand too much attention to justify unbanning it.

 

[laptops]

So my derby team is officially out, and while I'm sad I don't get to play more dpp, I had a super fun run and thoroughly enjoyed my time, even if my record didn't turn out as well as I'd hoped.

Here's a quick teamdump, not gonna get crazy detailed, so if you have any questions about sets or spreads feel free to ask.


https://pokepast.es/911a3d9f42c904ad
The infamous 60 hp metagross 2hko'd by latioss,,,, I really liked this team in testing. If they don't lead lati, your metagross will likely be able to get an agility off and threaten it with boosted speed. You kinda autolose if they lead lati cuz it claims a kill every turn, and unfortunately my plan of simply not facing lead lati did not workout. Team is kinda bad, but I expect it to be much more usable if/when we ban lati.


https://pokepast.es/ed7a4bfeed18c4fd
i liked the idea i was going for of cress semiroom and sd rhyperior but the execution wasn't the best. rhyp prolly shoulda been more offensive. the only point of hp ground on cress was to not lose to sub meta which nido brought vs me in testing. in retrospective hp fire>ground for the sciz matchup makes this team a lot better and does the original intended purpose of breaking metas sub.

https://pokepast.es/cdda0f5d2be7f155
pretty standard rain. i really wish i coulda revealed absol to help justify a nom but alas. did the job i wanted of scare out lati, general priority, kill empo which sucks to play as rain. raikou should always be shiny to bluff weather ball, which thankfully i was talked out of. psychic gar is so we dont autolose to lead toxicroak.

https://pokepast.es/4412081c709d11fc
got on the zap train this weak and also wanted to try out scizor after dad1 gave me the work w/ it w2. unfortunately i used the bad set here (scarf)

https://pokepast.es/35c7e5473bb5bdb4
I echo the sv sentiment of: if you use screens setup you should be doing damage as fast as possible, so I decided to use guys that could threaten immediate damage. there's like 2 phsyical attackers in the tier so you can get away with just light screen. (even outside of setup screen zap is just sogood, thanks for showing me the light char) dual fake out also gives you a lot of chances to click setup buttons


thanks nido, mishi and jello for the all test games, was fun

 

[DaAwesomeDude1]

Derby just ended so I'll drop the teams I used there and the teams I used to make top 4 of DPP open. I found out like halfway through DPP open that I'm really comfortable with bulky offense teams with an electric + water/steel-type lead so all of these teams follow that same structure. There's nothing super creative but they're all teams that I think are pretty solid. Like always, I had a ton of fun playing DPP and I think it'll be even more fun once latios is gone since that'll open up options for team building.

week 1 and most of DPP open

https://pokepast.es/39b51c0855ab1ae7
This team was inspired by zee's lead zapdos + swampert team that I also spammed a lot in DPP open. The team started with me wanting to use lead empoleon cause I kept getting cooked by laptops with it. I also thought it was a good lead into what the lead meta was at the time since a lot of people were experimenting with more offensive leads like specs lati + scarf ttar instead of the traditional bulkier leads. Followed it up with semiroom + rhyperior since that was the hot thing at the time and then finished the team off with broken latios + tyranitar. Latios was scarf to revenge other latios while tyranitar was cb cause it fits better in semiroom. I was really busy leading up to week 1 so I just reused this team into Derby since it's my favorite team.

week 2

https://pokepast.es/4c07abfcfd907f4a
Going into week 2, I wanted to use SD scizor cause I saw how weak a lot of the popular team structures are to it. At this point, heatran is nowhere to be seen, tyranitar and latios is on pretty much every team, and cresselia + rhyperior is still very popular. I went with the go-to zapdos + water-type lead, this time opting for swampert cause it's better than empoleon at surviving and spreading chip damage, which benefits scizor more. Gyarados was added for intimidate and also checks heatran in case I ran into one. Then finished the team off with broken latios + tyranitar. This time I went with specs latios + scarf ttar since specs lati wallbreaking potential works better with scizor.

week 3

https://pokepast.es/50c51d1b5c89d843
For week 3, I've been using boring stuff so I wanted to use some heat aka replacing one pokemon on my normal bulky offense team structure with a niche mon. This week, I decided to use torterra because I thought it was a good meta call being a ground type that can also threaten the bulky waters that are everywhere. I also felt like I was gonna get clamperl'd. I also started to experiment with offensive zapdos since electric is a solid offensive typing that can hit a lot of the meta for neutral damage. It being ground-immune sets it apart from raikou as an offensive electric type since it allows me to not stack as many ground-weaknesses. I went with metagross as the lead pair to threaten tyranitar + latios leads. Then I added broken latios + ttar with gyarados, the best glue mon in the tier, as my last.

Don't ask what the torterra spread does, it's just sliders. I think it lives like two specs Dracos tho lmao. If you want to use this team, I recommend fast lead metagross so you can outspeed lead non-scarf tyranitars.

week 4

https://pokepast.es/5a1bc5b0a159e17a
My niche mon for week 4 was gonna be snorlax. The idea of the team was screens with a bunch of bulky stuff so they never die and can spread damage. Obviously had to use the standard water + electric lead. I then filled the team with a bunch of generic good-stuffs like metagross, specs lati, and cb gyarados.

I recommend not using curse snorlax though. You're better off with a third attack instead. EVs are sliders again.

week 5

https://pokepast.es/bfc8e2fa72acec91
For week 5, we pretty much had playoffs locked so I wanted to experiment with something super different. AIRedzone and I had talked about weavile and I thought it would be good into croven since I know he likes scarf ttar + specs lati leads and in general leans into more offensive oriented teams. I stole the metagross set from zee's week 4 team and thought it was a just a solid lead in general. Offensive zapdos was added to threaten bulky water-types and in case I ran into rhyperior while sub heatran is there for metagross / cresselia. Not sure why there's a dragonite. I think the idea is I chip stuff with a bunch of fast strong mons and then clean with e speed. CB e speed was also kinda cooking during testing so I kept it.

semis

https://pokepast.es/7c64a76478c7fa3d
Croven cooked me with registeel so I wanted to use that in our semis game. I also decided to go back to my roots of boring teams since my cooking in the past 3 weeks led to L's. Originally, the team was going to be screens double set-up with raikou instead of zapdos but in testing, the team was way too ground weak. Screens with registeel was also counterproductive since registeel likes to stay on the field for as long as possible spreading damage with stoss while with screens, you want to get your set up sweepers in asap so it was scrapped for bulky zapdos. Bulky zapdos also improves the rain and clamperl matchup. I kept the dual setup sweepers of tyranitar and scizor from the first draft of the team. In hindsight, dd ttar should just be a standard set like chople 3 attacks since there's less setup opportunities without screens. I opted for scarf latios over specs cause I wanted the option to clean with something fast once scizor/registeel/tyranitar has done its damage. Scarf latios also gives me a way to revenge dd gyarados, as this team is pretty weak to it. Rounded it out with best glue mon gyarados.

finals

https://pokepast.es/bbc7f97f16c3ad1e
Going into finals, we expected scizor after looking at fespy's scout so I went with the go-to offensive zapdos. Unfortunately I still built a scizor-weak team since the only thing that can reliably revenge it is zapdos. This team is very similar to all my other teams so I don't really have anything additional to add to the team building process. Originally it was sub metagross cause Jello cooked me with it but after talking with Fede, we decided to go with explosion since that's generally the safer option. Hitmontop was added cause I wanted double intimidate and a hard tyranitar answer.

I'll make a separate post about my thoughts on latios later. While my record wasn't as well as I had hoped, overall I'm still happy with how I played in Derby. Shoutouts to everyone in kingdras for making this such a great experience. Special shoutouts to the goat managers eragon11145 and Hugo, AIRedzone, sir jelloton, and Farfromani for the help, and kaori and ryo yamada2001 for hosting!

 

[mimi]

-> T2

I'm here to talk about the lord and saviour of DPP DOU, Swampert, as well as to nominate him for tier 2. Swampert currently is one of the best Pokemon in the meta thanks to its combination of typing, natural bulk with surprising offensive capabilities, as well as access to the best move in the game, Stealth Rock. Swampert has the ability to switch into nearly every Pokemon within the tier and can pretty much reliably 1v1 every ranked 1 or 2 Pokemon in most peoples VR while also being immune to the most common status move in the tier in TWave. Swampert is also very easy to fit into teams and gives very little down side in using it currently because most teams don't carry a reliable way to deal with it currently outside of stray grass knots / hp grass on a random Pokemon.