Gen 4 DPP Latias Test

M Dragon

The north wind
is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Tutor Alumnusis a Tournament Director Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnusis the Smogon Tour Season 17 Championis a Past SPL Champion
#1
Hello everyone,

for years and years, Latias has been discussed as potential for re-entry into DPP OU, with arguments for it including its initial ban being skewed by Salamence in addition to being voted OU 4 times, the metagame expanding in a way that naturally does not struggle with it whatsoever, even to the point of it potentially being a liability, and while it is quite a solid Pokemon, it would almost certainly not be overwhelming or overpowered. Of course, there are arguments against - some believe it's got too many good attributes, shuts down too many Pokemon too easily, and has little reason not to be used. Whatever your stance on Latias as a Pokemon and its effect on the metagame, the fact remains that it is not so simple to uproot a metagame that has had very few surface-level changes for well over eight years. However, those of us who have lived and breathed DPP for as long as we can remember have come to the conclusion that, with a recent Latias tournament concluding, there is unlikely to be a better time to take the plunge and see for once and for all if this is an improvement to our beloved tier. I want to stress that part of the beauty behind the addition of Latias is that it is a known variable AND it is not going to shake the metagame you know and love to its core as to cause a complete revamp.

So, we would like you, reader, to be involved. We are opening this thread for discussion on the metagame; we will monitor what you, the public, say, and be involved in the discussion ourselves, as well as playing on the ladder. Today, November 1st, we are freeing Latias on the regular DPP ladder. We encourage you to get your feet wet on it. After two weeks, we would like to begin the official suspect, using the same ladder. The requirements will be announced then. The test will run for an additional two weeks, and the vote will be held in early December. If Latias is unbanned, we will re-visit it in a few months' time.

Happy laddering! We strongly advise posting here - discussion, replays and so forth. We will provide sample teams soon.

Marty The Immortal please implement this asap, ty
 
#3
Less tournament representation is the answer yes. The nature of drops is such that tournament info is a lot more difficult to obtain.

For now this thread should be kept for discussing the DPP Latias metagame, keeping track of its development as it progresses within these two weeks.
Myself I'm currently building Latias teams in anticipation of the ladder release.
 
Last edited:

Merritt

literally the textbook definition of a tsundere
is a Community Contributor
#4
Might as well dump the 81 replays from the recent (ended just over a month ago) DPP Latias tournament to give a preliminary idea of what the metagame might look like. Sorted by round and who played.

byronthewellwell vs Astamatitos
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen4ubers-795128793
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen4ubers-795130785
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen4ubers-795133004

Wenderz vs SOMALIA
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen4ubers-392475
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen4ubers-392476
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen4ubers-392478

alive vs Brancus
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen4ubers-392935
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen4ubers-392936

nightcore vs Rewer
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen4ubers-796130568
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen4ubers-796128917
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen4ubers-796132209

Mirbro vs Pkel SweeTforU
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen4ubers-796157644
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen4ubers-796153511

BKC vs Raspberry
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen4ubers-392964
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen4ubers-392966
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen4ubers-392968

iKiQ vs Finchinator
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen4ubers-392972
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen4ubers-392973

hoblaph vs H.M.N.I.P
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen4ubers-796714084
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen4ubers-796718545

Mazz vs spatulakun
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen4ubers-797290654
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen4ubers-797294265
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen4ubers-797296787

Excal vs ck49
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen4ubers-393639
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen4ubers-393640

SanJl vs reachzero
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen4ubers-797824978
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen4ubers-797829471
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen4ubers-797833870

Marshall.Law vs miltankmilk
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen4ubers-798409866
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen4ubers-798412583

Rayzark vs Groudon
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen4ubers-799126794
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen4ubers-799129406








 
Last edited:
#5
Merritt I think it might be a good idea to compile some usage stats for the Latias tournament. I think that would give an even better indication of what the metagame might look like, being able to see what is used more and what has dropped dramatically in usage (the latter being what I am more interested in as this test moves forward)

I guess it's a better time than never to voice my opinion against bringing Latias back into the meta. I won't write a fleshed out post on this yet (saving it for the actual suspect test), but I just want to encourage people to not just use Latias teams during this suspect, but some of your old builds without Latias as well, because I think it's worth paying attention to what kinds of builds the Latias metagame invalidates, in a sense.

Anyway, best of luck everyone with the tests. This is a really interesting time for DPP and I hope we as a community can make this test as smooth and as thorough as we possibly can given our constraints.
 
Last edited:

Merritt

literally the textbook definition of a tsundere
is a Community Contributor
#6
Merritt I think it might be a good idea to compile some usage stats for the Latias tournament. I think that would give an even better indication of what the metagame might look like, being able to see what is used more and what has dropped dramatically in usage (the latter being what I am more interested in as this test moves forward)
sure thing

Round 1

Code:
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon            | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1    | Latias             |   39 |  60.94% |  48.72% |
| 2    | Tyranitar          |   38 |  59.38% |  52.63% |
| 3    | Heatran            |   21 |  32.81% |  52.38% |
| 4    | Jirachi            |   19 |  29.69% |  68.42% |
| 5    | Skarmory           |   18 |  28.12% |  33.33% |
| -    | Rotom-Appliance    |   15 |  23.44% |  53.33% |
| 6    | Flygon             |   14 |  21.88% |  57.14% |
| 7    | Starmie            |   13 |  20.31% |  61.54% |
| 7    | Scizor             |   13 |  20.31% |  53.85% |
| 9    | Metagross          |   12 |  18.75% |  33.33% |
| 10   | Dragonite          |   11 |  17.19% |  54.55% |
| 11   | Lucario            |   10 |  15.62% |  60.00% |
| 11   | Bronzong           |   10 |  15.62% |  50.00% |
| 13   | Gliscor            |    8 |  12.50% |  25.00% |
| 13   | Suicune            |    8 |  12.50% |  12.50% |
| 15   | Magnezone          |    7 |  10.94% |  71.43% |
| 15   | Rotom-Wash         |    7 |  10.94% |  71.43% |
| 15   | Zapdos             |    7 |  10.94% |  57.14% |
| 15   | Gyarados           |    7 |  10.94% |  28.57% |
| 19   | Dugtrio            |    6 |   9.38% |  50.00% |
| 19   | Rotom-Heat         |    6 |   9.38% |  50.00% |
| 19   | Celebi             |    6 |   9.38% |  33.33% |
| 19   | Infernape          |    6 |   9.38% |  16.67% |
| 23   | Swampert           |    5 |   7.81% |  80.00% |
| 23   | Clefable           |    5 |   7.81% |  40.00% |
| 23   | Weavile            |    5 |   7.81% |  20.00% |
| 26   | Azelf              |    4 |   6.25% | 100.00% |
| 26   | Nidoqueen          |    4 |   6.25% |  75.00% |
| 26   | Gengar             |    4 |   6.25% |  25.00% |
| 26   | Hippowdon          |    4 |   6.25% |  25.00% |
| 26   | Breloom            |    4 |   6.25% |  25.00% |
| 26   | Tentacruel         |    4 |   6.25% |   0.00% |
| 26   | Roserade           |    4 |   6.25% |   0.00% |
| 26   | Blissey            |    4 |   6.25% |   0.00% |
| 34   | Cresselia          |    3 |   4.69% | 100.00% |
| 34   | Empoleon           |    3 |   4.69% |  66.67% |
| 34   | Kingdra            |    3 |   4.69% |  66.67% |
| 34   | Forretress         |    3 |   4.69% |  33.33% |
| 38   | Mamoswine          |    2 |   3.12% | 100.00% |
| 38   | Abomasnow          |    2 |   3.12% |  50.00% |
| 38   | Crobat             |    2 |   3.12% |  50.00% |
| 38   | Machamp            |    2 |   3.12% |  50.00% |
| 38   | Raikou             |    2 |   3.12% |   0.00% |
| 38   | Shaymin            |    2 |   3.12% |   0.00% |
| 38   | Rotom-Mow          |    2 |   3.12% |   0.00% |
| 45   | Heracross          |    1 |   1.56% | 100.00% |
| 45   | Vaporeon           |    1 |   1.56% | 100.00% |
| 45   | Uxie               |    1 |   1.56% | 100.00% |
| 45   | Aerodactyl         |    1 |   1.56% |   0.00% |
  • Missing 3 Pokemon from BYRONTHEWELLWELL.
  • Missing 2 Pokemon from WENDERZ.
  • Missing 2 Pokemon from SOMALIA.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from ALIVE.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from REWER.
  • Missing 2 Pokemon from NIGHTCORE.
  • Missing 2 Pokemon from BKC.
  • Missing 3 Pokemon from FINCHINATOR.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from HOBLAPH.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from PIETROXVII.
  • Missing 2 Pokemon from EXCAL.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from ABCDEA.

Round 2

Code:
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon            | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1    | Latias             |   29 |  63.04% |  37.93% |
| 2    | Tyranitar          |   23 |  50.00% |  60.87% |
| 3    | Jirachi            |   19 |  41.30% |  47.37% |
| 4    | Starmie            |   17 |  36.96% |  58.82% |
| 5    | Heatran            |   15 |  32.61% |  60.00% |
| -    | Rotom-Appliance    |   11 |  23.91% |  36.36% |
| 6    | Scizor             |   10 |  21.74% |  60.00% |
| 6    | Zapdos             |   10 |  21.74% |  40.00% |
| 8    | Bronzong           |    8 |  17.39% |  37.50% |
| 8    | Metagross          |    8 |  17.39% |  25.00% |
| 10   | Breloom            |    7 |  15.22% |  57.14% |
| 10   | Lucario            |    7 |  15.22% |  42.86% |
| 10   | Gyarados           |    7 |  15.22% |  42.86% |
| 10   | Dragonite          |    7 |  15.22% |  28.57% |
| 14   | Flygon             |    6 |  13.04% |  66.67% |
| 14   | Skarmory           |    6 |  13.04% |  66.67% |
| 14   | Infernape          |    6 |  13.04% |  33.33% |
| 14   | Nidoqueen          |    6 |  13.04% |  33.33% |
| 14   | Rotom-Wash         |    6 |  13.04% |  16.67% |
| 19   | Rotom-Heat         |    5 |  10.87% |  60.00% |
| 19   | Magnezone          |    5 |  10.87% |  40.00% |
| 19   | Machamp            |    5 |  10.87% |  40.00% |
| 19   | Clefable           |    5 |  10.87% |  20.00% |
| 23   | Blissey            |    4 |   8.70% |  75.00% |
| 23   | Gliscor            |    4 |   8.70% |  50.00% |
| 23   | Suicune            |    4 |   8.70% |  50.00% |
| 23   | Swampert           |    4 |   8.70% |  25.00% |
| 27   | Azelf              |    3 |   6.52% | 100.00% |
| 27   | Weavile            |    3 |   6.52% | 100.00% |
| 27   | Uxie               |    3 |   6.52% |  66.67% |
| 27   | Dugtrio            |    3 |   6.52% |  66.67% |
| 27   | Roserade           |    3 |   6.52% |  66.67% |
| 27   | Gengar             |    3 |   6.52% |  66.67% |
| 27   | Celebi             |    3 |   6.52% |  33.33% |
| 34   | Mamoswine          |    2 |   4.35% | 100.00% |
| 34   | Empoleon           |    2 |   4.35% | 100.00% |
| 34   | Aerodactyl         |    2 |   4.35% |  50.00% |
| 34   | Abomasnow          |    2 |   4.35% |  50.00% |
| 34   | Vaporeon           |    2 |   4.35% |   0.00% |
| 34   | Milotic            |    2 |   4.35% |   0.00% |
| 40   | Kingdra            |    1 |   2.17% | 100.00% |
| 40   | Forretress         |    1 |   2.17% | 100.00% |
| 40   | Cresselia          |    1 |   2.17% | 100.00% |
| 40   | Hitmontop          |    1 |   2.17% |   0.00% |
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from ABCDEA.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from PIETROOOOOO.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from PIETROOOOOO.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from NEIL HILBORN.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from REACHZERO.

Round 3

Code:
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon            | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1    | Jirachi            |   20 |  66.67% |  55.00% |
| 2    | Latias             |   15 |  50.00% |  46.67% |
| 3    | Tyranitar          |   14 |  46.67% |  57.14% |
| 4    | Heatran            |   13 |  43.33% |  46.15% |
| -    | Rotom-Appliance    |   10 |  33.33% |  50.00% |
| 5    | Gyarados           |    9 |  30.00% |  44.44% |
| 6    | Flygon             |    6 |  20.00% |  83.33% |
| 6    | Dragonite          |    6 |  20.00% |  66.67% |
| 6    | Rotom-Wash         |    6 |  20.00% |  50.00% |
| 6    | Scizor             |    6 |  20.00% |  33.33% |
| 10   | Roserade           |    5 |  16.67% |  60.00% |
| 10   | Gliscor            |    5 |  16.67% |  20.00% |
| 12   | Rotom-Heat         |    4 |  13.33% |  50.00% |
| 12   | Machamp            |    4 |  13.33% |  50.00% |
| 12   | Gengar             |    4 |  13.33% |  50.00% |
| 12   | Vaporeon           |    4 |  13.33% |  50.00% |
| 12   | Starmie            |    4 |  13.33% |  25.00% |
| 12   | Metagross          |    4 |  13.33% |   0.00% |
| 18   | Swampert           |    3 |  10.00% | 100.00% |
| 18   | Clefable           |    3 |  10.00% |  66.67% |
| 18   | Kingdra            |    3 |  10.00% |  66.67% |
| 18   | Breloom            |    3 |  10.00% |  66.67% |
| 18   | Zapdos             |    3 |  10.00% |  33.33% |
| 23   | Nidoqueen          |    2 |   6.67% | 100.00% |
| 23   | Skarmory           |    2 |   6.67% | 100.00% |
| 23   | Weavile            |    2 |   6.67% | 100.00% |
| 23   | Celebi             |    2 |   6.67% |  50.00% |
| 23   | Lucario            |    2 |   6.67% |  50.00% |
| 23   | Bronzong           |    2 |   6.67% |   0.00% |
| 23   | Hippowdon          |    2 |   6.67% |   0.00% |
| 23   | Suicune            |    2 |   6.67% |   0.00% |
| 23   | Magnezone          |    2 |   6.67% |   0.00% |
| 32   | Azelf              |    1 |   3.33% | 100.00% |
| 32   | Shaymin            |    1 |   3.33% | 100.00% |
| 32   | Mamoswine          |    1 |   3.33% | 100.00% |
| 32   | Infernape          |    1 |   3.33% | 100.00% |
| 32   | Crobat             |    1 |   3.33% |   0.00% |
| 32   | Ludicolo           |    1 |   3.33% |   0.00% |
| 32   | Venusaur           |    1 |   3.33% |   0.00% |
| 32   | Empoleon           |    1 |   3.33% |   0.00% |
| 32   | Uxie               |    1 |   3.33% |   0.00% |
| 32   | Togekiss           |    1 |   3.33% |   0.00% |
| 32   | Aerodactyl         |    1 |   3.33% |   0.00% |
| 32   | Tentacruel         |    1 |   3.33% |   0.00% |
  • Missing 2 Pokemon from PKEL SWEETFORU.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from ALIVE.
  • Missing 2 Pokemon from QUINT.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from DREAM.

Round 4

Code:
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon            | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1    | Tyranitar          |    9 |  75.00% |  55.56% |
| 2    | Jirachi            |    8 |  66.67% |  62.50% |
| 2    | Latias             |    8 |  66.67% |  37.50% |
| 4    | Heatran            |    4 |  33.33% |  50.00% |
| 4    | Starmie            |    4 |  33.33% |  50.00% |
| 4    | Dragonite          |    4 |  33.33% |  50.00% |
| 7    | Gliscor            |    3 |  25.00% |  66.67% |
| -    | Rotom-Appliance    |    3 |  25.00% |  33.33% |
| 8    | Skarmory           |    2 |  16.67% |  50.00% |
| 8    | Rotom-Heat         |    2 |  16.67% |  50.00% |
| 8    | Celebi             |    2 |  16.67% |  50.00% |
| 8    | Scizor             |    2 |  16.67% |  50.00% |
| 8    | Bronzong           |    2 |  16.67% |  50.00% |
| 8    | Lucario            |    2 |  16.67% |   0.00% |
| 14   | Clefable           |    1 |   8.33% | 100.00% |
| 14   | Nidoqueen          |    1 |   8.33% | 100.00% |
| 14   | Uxie               |    1 |   8.33% | 100.00% |
| 14   | Ludicolo           |    1 |   8.33% | 100.00% |
| 14   | Kingdra            |    1 |   8.33% | 100.00% |
| 14   | Qwilfish           |    1 |   8.33% | 100.00% |
| 14   | Magnezone          |    1 |   8.33% | 100.00% |
| 14   | Hippowdon          |    1 |   8.33% |   0.00% |
| 14   | Forretress         |    1 |   8.33% |   0.00% |
| 14   | Blissey            |    1 |   8.33% |   0.00% |
| 14   | Gyarados           |    1 |   8.33% |   0.00% |
| 14   | Rotom-Wash         |    1 |   8.33% |   0.00% |
| 14   | Gengar             |    1 |   8.33% |   0.00% |
| 14   | Empoleon           |    1 |   8.33% |   0.00% |
| 14   | Azelf              |    1 |   8.33% |   0.00% |
| 14   | Dugtrio            |    1 |   8.33% |   0.00% |
| 14   | Weavile            |    1 |   8.33% |   0.00% |
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from PKEL SWEETFORU.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from JUBILIFE JAZZ.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from JUBILIFE JAZZ.

Semifinals

Code:
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon            | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1    | Tyranitar          |    8 |  80.00% |  62.50% |
| 2    | Latias             |    5 |  50.00% |  60.00% |
| 2    | Starmie            |    5 |  50.00% |  40.00% |
| 2    | Dragonite          |    5 |  50.00% |  40.00% |
| 5    | Bronzong           |    4 |  40.00% |  50.00% |
| 6    | Magnezone          |    3 |  30.00% | 100.00% |
| 6    | Jirachi            |    3 |  30.00% |  66.67% |
| 6    | Breloom            |    3 |  30.00% |  33.33% |
| 6    | Heatran            |    3 |  30.00% |  33.33% |
| 10   | Flygon             |    2 |  20.00% |  50.00% |
| 10   | Empoleon           |    2 |  20.00% |  50.00% |
| 10   | Rotom-Wash         |    2 |  20.00% |   0.00% |
| -    | Rotom-Appliance    |    2 |  20.00% |   0.00% |
| 10   | Kingdra            |    2 |  20.00% |   0.00% |
| 14   | Scizor             |    1 |  10.00% | 100.00% |
| 14   | Mamoswine          |    1 |  10.00% | 100.00% |
| 14   | Swampert           |    1 |  10.00% | 100.00% |
| 14   | Metagross          |    1 |  10.00% | 100.00% |
| 14   | Gyarados           |    1 |  10.00% | 100.00% |
| 14   | Nidoqueen          |    1 |  10.00% |   0.00% |
| 14   | Blissey            |    1 |  10.00% |   0.00% |
| 14   | Skarmory           |    1 |  10.00% |   0.00% |
| 14   | Weavile            |    1 |  10.00% |   0.00% |
| 14   | Zapdos             |    1 |  10.00% |   0.00% |
| 14   | Lucario            |    1 |  10.00% |   0.00% |
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from BKC.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from JUBILIFE JAZZ.

Finals

Code:
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon            | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1    | Latias             |    3 |  75.00% |  66.67% |
| 1    | Tyranitar          |    3 |  75.00% |  66.67% |
| 1    | Heatran            |    3 |  75.00% |  33.33% |
| 4    | Rotom-Wash         |    2 |  50.00% | 100.00% |
| -    | Rotom-Appliance    |    2 |  50.00% | 100.00% |
| 4    | Swampert           |    2 |  50.00% |  50.00% |
| 4    | Dragonite          |    2 |  50.00% |   0.00% |
| 7    | Skarmory           |    1 |  25.00% | 100.00% |
| 7    | Gliscor            |    1 |  25.00% | 100.00% |
| 7    | Roserade           |    1 |  25.00% | 100.00% |
| 7    | Metagross          |    1 |  25.00% |   0.00% |
| 7    | Empoleon           |    1 |  25.00% |   0.00% |
| 7    | Machamp            |    1 |  25.00% |   0.00% |
| 7    | Gyarados           |    1 |  25.00% |   0.00% |
| 7    | Jirachi            |    1 |  25.00% |   0.00% |


Cumulative

Code:
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon            | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1    | Latias             |   96 |  59.26% |  45.83% |
| 2    | Tyranitar          |   94 |  58.02% |  56.38% |
| 3    | Jirachi            |   70 |  43.21% |  57.14% |
| 4    | Heatran            |   58 |  35.80% |  51.72% |
| 5    | Starmie            |   43 |  26.54% |  53.49% |
| -    | Rotom-Appliance    |   43 |  26.54% |  46.51% |
| 6    | Dragonite          |   34 |  20.99% |  47.06% |
| 7    | Scizor             |   31 |  19.14% |  54.84% |
| 8    | Skarmory           |   29 |  17.90% |  44.83% |
| 9    | Flygon             |   27 |  16.67% |  62.96% |
| 10   | Bronzong           |   26 |  16.05% |  42.31% |
| 10   | Gyarados           |   26 |  16.05% |  38.46% |
| 12   | Rotom-Wash         |   24 |  14.81% |  45.83% |
| 12   | Metagross          |   24 |  14.81% |  29.17% |
| 14   | Lucario            |   21 |  12.96% |  42.86% |
| 15   | Zapdos             |   20 |  12.35% |  45.00% |
| 15   | Gliscor            |   20 |  12.35% |  40.00% |
| 17   | Magnezone          |   18 |  11.11% |  61.11% |
| 18   | Rotom-Heat         |   17 |  10.49% |  52.94% |
| 19   | Breloom            |   16 |   9.88% |  50.00% |
| 20   | Swampert           |   14 |   8.64% |  64.29% |
| 20   | Nidoqueen          |   14 |   8.64% |  57.14% |
| 20   | Clefable           |   14 |   8.64% |  42.86% |
| 23   | Roserade           |   13 |   8.02% |  46.15% |
| 23   | Celebi             |   13 |   8.02% |  38.46% |
| 23   | Infernape          |   13 |   8.02% |  30.77% |
| 23   | Suicune            |   13 |   8.02% |  23.08% |
| 27   | Machamp            |   12 |   7.41% |  41.67% |
| 27   | Gengar             |   12 |   7.41% |  41.67% |
| 29   | Weavile            |   11 |   6.79% |  45.45% |
| 30   | Empoleon           |   10 |   6.17% |  50.00% |
| 30   | Blissey            |   10 |   6.17% |  30.00% |
| 32   | Dugtrio            |    9 |   5.56% |  55.56% |
| 32   | Kingdra            |    9 |   5.56% |  55.56% |
| 34   | Azelf              |    8 |   4.94% |  87.50% |
| 35   | Vaporeon           |    7 |   4.32% |  42.86% |
| 35   | Hippowdon          |    7 |   4.32% |  14.29% |
| 37   | Uxie               |    6 |   3.70% |  66.67% |
| 38   | Mamoswine          |    5 |   3.09% | 100.00% |
| 38   | Tentacruel         |    5 |   3.09% |   0.00% |
| 40   | Cresselia          |    4 |   2.47% | 100.00% |
| 40   | Abomasnow          |    4 |   2.47% |  50.00% |
| 40   | Aerodactyl         |    4 |   2.47% |  25.00% |
| 40   | Forretress         |    4 |   2.47% |  25.00% |
| 44   | Crobat             |    3 |   1.85% |  33.33% |
| 44   | Shaymin            |    3 |   1.85% |  33.33% |
| 46   | Ludicolo           |    2 |   1.23% |  50.00% |
| 46   | Raikou             |    2 |   1.23% |   0.00% |
| 46   | Rotom-Mow          |    2 |   1.23% |   0.00% |
| 46   | Milotic            |    2 |   1.23% |   0.00% |
| 50   | Heracross          |    1 |   0.62% | 100.00% |
| 50   | Qwilfish           |    1 |   0.62% | 100.00% |
| 50   | Hitmontop          |    1 |   0.62% |   0.00% |
| 50   | Venusaur           |    1 |   0.62% |   0.00% |
| 50   | Togekiss           |    1 |   0.62% |   0.00% |
  • Missing 3 Pokemon from BYRONTHEWELLWELL.
  • Missing 2 Pokemon from WENDERZ.
  • Missing 2 Pokemon from SOMALIA.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from ALIVE.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from REWER.
  • Missing 2 Pokemon from NIGHTCORE.
  • Missing 2 Pokemon from BKC.
  • Missing 3 Pokemon from FINCHINATOR.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from HOBLAPH.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from PIETROXVII.
  • Missing 2 Pokemon from EXCAL.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from ABCDEA.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from PIETROOOOOO.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from PIETROOOOOO.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from NEIL HILBORN.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from REACHZERO.
  • Missing 2 Pokemon from PKEL SWEETFORU.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from ALIVE.
  • Missing 2 Pokemon from QUINT.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from DREAM.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from PKEL SWEETFORU.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from JUBILIFE JAZZ.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from JUBILIFE JAZZ.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from BKC.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from JUBILIFE JAZZ.
 
#7
To encourage discussion on this change, there is an official Smogon DPP discord, all discussion is welcomed :)
https://discord.gg/NK47sBn


Any new players who have never dabbled with Latias before and want some insight into some changes, here’s some very brief changes you may see in the metagame:
(This is entirely opinionated and those who play the Metagame more consistently might disagree on some ends, or attribute some factors to playstyle, so for that sake I will try to keep it very cookie cutter with changes and opinions, catered completely towards those who haven't dealt with this change before)

  • Increase in Steels (emphasis on pokemon who can take special attacks well and heal back up)
    • Toxic Bronzong with Payback, Toxic, Protect
    • Sub/Protect Toxic Magnezone
    • SpDef Rachi with Bodyslam and Wish (although this is already an already popular pokemon
  • If Dugtrio wasn't annoying enough, expect an increase when Latias is in use as well as 1-2 U-Turn pokemon to lure Ttar in.
    • This means a possible decrease in SR TTar's and Passho TTars and an emphasis on Scarf Ttars/CB Tars, SR Ttar gives too much opportunity for being trapped. (I am sure there will be a debate for why SR Tar is still going to be widely used, this is just a speculation)
  • Expect a small jump in Pokemon that do extremely well versus Latias and Dugtrio
    • My favorite? Weavile
    • Mamoswine who is already a severely underrated pokemon in DPP and will be able to do very well versus those slow spdef rachi's\
    • Scarf Heatran. While still used, not as common as it used to be. It outspeeds Dugtrio and still provides opportunity for sweeps. I don't expect his usage to dip.
  • More Kingdra? RD Kingdra? Passho Tran? Sub Tran? Suicune?
  • Pocket Pick of the Week: Abomasnow will disrupt a lot of the stall teams used, negate leftiez on most sand resistant pokemon with Hail, serves as a huge special tank and has the utility to disrupt a lot of the teams coming in to the metagame.
    • Lady Bugs famous Hail Stall was made during the Lati metagame and was able to handle most Lati centric teams quite well.
  • Expect a potential decrease in:
    • Infernape. While I personally think CB Turn Ape will increase in usage as far as Ape sets go, the overall production of Ape decreases as outside of U-Turning, Lati completely blocks any effort ape has. Before in the meta, Ape counters included Cune, Starmie, Gengar to an extent, etc. With Lati coming in, Ape has to constantly pivot out and provide your team advantages before being given an opportunity to do considerable amount of damage to your opponents team. Combined with Ape's fragileness, it's easily worn down by a combination of SR, Sand, and any other potential hazards. Heatran IS going to continue to be the premier fire pokemon.
 

Deluks917

Ride on Shooting Star
#8
Everyone who plays competitive BW knows that latios is a dominant pokemon. The following is a representative set:

Latios @ Choice Specs
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor
- Dragon Pulse
- Surf
- Trick

Let us compare this set to choice specs Latias.

Latias (F) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor
- Dragon Pulse
- Surf
- Trick

Both pokemon have the same moveset, HP and Speed. Their attack stat is meaningless. So the relevant differences are SpA, Def, SpD.

Latios:
SpA: 359
Def: 196
SpD: 256

Latias
SpA: 319
Def: 216
SpD: 296

Change from Latios to Latias:
SpA: 9.1% less
Def: 10.2% more
SpD: 15.6% more

Obviously better defenses is not worth substantially lower special attack. In particular the lower special attack makes it easier to reliably trap. However Latias has advantages and the two pokemon are relatively comparable statwise. Latios is almost universally considered problematic in BW. Its certainly true that many lati@s counters from BW are legal in DPP (tyranitar, bulky rachi) but important checks are missing (in particular ferrothorn). I have focused on the specs set but LO Latias has frequently seen play instead of running LO Latios. Adding a pokemon comparable to BW Latios to a much less powerful metagame seems like a mistake.

(I don't want to get too deep into fine details but I am aware there are some other factors. For example DPP specs Latias cannot use sleep talk as effectively because choice locked ST is much weaker in DPP)
 
#9
Been waiting for something to come up on Smogon to make me want to play Pokemon again and this is it. I can't wait to ladder some DPP OU again with Latias, who I think will be a really interesting addition to the tier.

I'm particularly looking forward to how this change impacts 4 main focuses:
1) Dark types. Tyranitar. Already a pretty dominant 'mon in DPP OU, and the SpDef set checks Latias nicely. However, the rise of Steel types may balance this out as stuff like CB Scizor can revenge it easily. Weavile is also going to enjoy Latias, a mon it forces out, and can SD in the face of. SD Weavile is pretty good already.
2) Speaking of Scizor, other steels are also likely to rise. Interesting stuff I'm looking forward to are Trick Room teams, DragMag, variations on Scizor (tired of CB/Scarf being rampant).
3) Following on from DragMag, dragons are gonna be fun too. Are we gonna see the re-emergence of old LatiMence teams using Dnite > Mence? How is it going to affect Flygon? Likewise Kingdra?
4) Finally, Ice mons. Mamoswine beats everything I've just listed and it's a massively underappreciated mon. Hope it gets the respect it deserves.

Looking forward to washing off some dust and playing this tier again. I love it. So glad we've got the opportunity to test Latias in a meta without Salamence.
 
#10
Day 1 Synopsis:

The Ladder is buzzing with Latias teams. Predictably so as the 'new toy' effect is currently in play. The early hours of DPP Latias release saw a lot of balanced Latias builds. Both Spikes and Trapper based, revolving around removing Steels and TTar, capitalizing on Latias's self-sustained sweeper nature.

1541155589659.png

Builds observed on the 1st of Nov during ladder runs.

Gliscor is more prominent on defense, seemingly unaffected by Latias's introduction if anything.

As time progresses, players have also started making attempts at more offense based builds. Offense appreciates the Electric + Water + Fighting pivot that Latias poses.

1541155792024.png


Lucario is a poke I like to pair a lot with Latias offense based builds. Their typing synergy as well as Luke's ability to always make progress against defensive builds is great. This is amplified by Luke's near immunity to Stealth Rock damage which provides a lot of pivoting/double switching potential. I've switched my coverage move to Bullet Punch as of late as Scarf Tyranitar is everywhere at the moment.

Sets on the rise:

Scarf Tyranitar is being used in builds outside traditional NidoClef stall. However this is not the only TTar set on the rise. The comparatively reduced usage of Breloom and Infernape has created a window for Dragon Dance variants. That's the one I've been personally running:

Tyranitar @ Babiri Berry
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Stone Edge
- Earthquake
- Fire Punch

Something also featured in an RMT from 08 (smog #1 featured RMT). The enhanced frequency of Bronzong/Scizor and reduced Breloom/Infernape use makes Babiri a solid alternative to mainstream items.

Easter Eggs:

Its good to also capture some outliers benefiting from this metagame injection. Stone's prediction about aboma teams showing their head was spot on:

1541156474793.png


Weavile is another poke starting to see usage again. Nothing too overwhelming however.

Overall:

Day one was a fun day to ladder, both old players and new seemed to enjoy the metagame.

There were a lot of users who opted to not run Latias, despite the day one craze effect, I'd say about one third of the games I played were against non-Latias teams. I would be interested to see how this develops once the 'new toy' effect dies down, as well as random ladderers become informed of the test.

While everything is still up in the air, one thing is for certain. Latias has stirred new interest in the dpp community, with Stone's DPP discord channel buzzing with activity and discussion.
 
Last edited:
#11
It's been a very, very long time since I last played with Latias in DPP OU.
I welcome its addition, as I think it's a good poké to have around as a glue to cool teams that would otherwise fall apart, and while it is very powerful there's enough things around to keep it in check.

Most of its possible effects on the metagame have been listed. There's one point in particular I don't agree with, and that's people harping on Mamoswine - I don't think it will be affected a ton even after considering the meta trends.
It certainly looks amazing on paper - unresisted STAB backed by monstrous ATK and access to priority. Its problem however is its typing, which has it take neutral damage from any hit bar Electric-type attacks (and no, you don't get the Ice resist provided by Thick Fat, that is gen 5, come back when you're older). Thus, despite Mamo's solid defensive stats, it can't take many hits on the switch-in or from mons faster than it (and there's plenty of those); and this is a problem not adressed by the increased use of Steel-types and Dugtrio.
 
#12
It's definitely nice to shake things up after so many years. I haven't really had the chance to build any teams and test anything out due to a hectic school schedule.

However, though this is somewhat unrelated to Latias, can someone explain to me why Mew is banned? I know Mew is an incredibly diverse Pokemon, but its typing and stats are pretty mediocre even by OU standards.

If Latias is now testable in OU, can Mew be one day as well?

Just food for thought.
 
#13
Mew is interesting indeed, but I think it should stay banned in Gen 4.

If you face basically any opposing 'mon, you'll generally have a decent idea at what it does - physical, special, offensive, defensive, you name it.
Mew can be anything. Anything.
This "being able to be anything" loses a lot of value in Gen 5, where Team Preview ruins the surprise factor of not only you packing Mew, but also condensing the 15 or so sets it could possibly run to a mere 2 or 3 that make sense in the team's general context.
Gen 4 has no Team Preview. This has severe implications. If you know what Mew is running or that there is a Mew waiting for you, you can counter it fairly well. In Gen 4 you don't know about it; and if you don't know what Mew is runing you can't possibly know how to counteract it. Which support moves does it carry? Which of your mons should it weaken/take out completely? You have no idea until you've fallen for it.
 
#14
Mew is interesting indeed, but I think it should stay banned in Gen 4.

If you face basically any opposing 'mon, you'll generally have a decent idea at what it does - physical, special, offensive, defensive, you name it.
Mew can be anything. Anything.
This "being able to be anything" loses a lot of value in Gen 5, where Team Preview ruins the surprise factor of not only you packing Mew, but also condensing the 15 or so sets it could possibly run to a mere 2 or 3 that make sense in the team's general context.
Gen 4 has no Team Preview. This has severe implications. If you know what Mew is running or that there is a Mew waiting for you, you can counter it fairly well. In Gen 4 you don't know about it; and if you don't know what Mew is runing you can't possibly know how to counteract it. Which support moves does it carry? Which of your mons should it weaken/take out completely? You have no idea until you've fallen for it.
I don't want to go too off topic, but Mew has numerous counters and checks in OU. Tyranitar, Scizor, Blissey (though physical/mixed may be dangerous), faster mons come to mind. And in my opinion, Jirachi is a more broken "sprite pokemon." Jirachi has an amazing secondary typing in Steel which gives it key resistances to Dragon and leaves it impervious to Pursuiters like T-tar. Jirachi's Serene Grace is also broken and uncompetitive. How many games have you played where flinch hax has determined a win or loss for you? Mew has no such luck to abuse.

Our other sprite pokemon, Manaphy, is a proper example of an Uber sprite imo. Water is an incredible typing, and allows him to abuse his STAB water attacks to the fullest. Psychic is terrible offensively, and Mew would be regulated to more supportive-type roles. I almost see Mew as a Togekiss type of Pokemon: interesting to fit on a team, but not worth it in the long run.

Also with the ban on Baton-Pass, Mew's perk in that area is also nullified.

If anyone has any objections, please tell me how Mew is more dangerous than either Jirachi or Latias....
 
Last edited:

LL

Waves of Change
is a Pre-Contributor
#15
Introduction:
I've been playing the DPP Lati ladder basically constantly since Lati was freed between several different alts, and am currently #1 on ladder, so I just wanted to give some observations about some trends that I've noticed while playing. These are just my intial thoughts on meta and me rambling on about some mons that I think are good at the moment, so don't expect much. Keep in mind that I've only started playing competitive Pokemon since when BW OU was the main tier, so I can't vouch for what the metagame was like back before Latias was banned.


I've seen a ton of different latias teams, but the main sets at the moment seem to be Calm Mind and Choice Specs, fitting onto a variety of playstyles ranging from Dragmag to Fat Spikes shit. I think Specs has been the set that's been the most fun to use, but CM + Roar paired with Spikes support is absolutely savage against a myriad of teams because you just roar out ttar and put it into range of +1 dpulse. Latias hasn't really been a migraine inducing mon that's warped the tier around it like people have expected or been that hard to handle in general. Not to say Latias isn't top tier in the meta at the moment, it just seems like it isn't even close to broken from the ~75 games I've played so far.


Heatran has always been good in DPP OU, but with the addition of Latias into the tier, Specially Defensive sets have made a furious comeback. The set that I've seen the most commonly is SR + Toxic utility tran, but I've also seen some sets like Resttalk and Torment a bit. Overall, fat Heatran is really nice in this meta because it has tools like roar that thrive in a metagame where fat skarm spikes teams are good on top of being a great utility checks to a slew of rising/existing threats like Scizor, Magnezone, and the obvious Latias as well as serving as a shaky/situational check to dangerous Pokemon like Gengar and such.


Magnezone has seen a real uptick in usage as of late for its ability to trap Pokemon such as Scizor and Skarmory that are seeing high usage at the moment. My favorite set personally is the bulky Magnet Rise trapper set because not only does it trap Pokemon like Scizor and Skarmory, but it's also the only trapper capable of trapping Bronzong and irritate mons like Flygon and Latias itself with the usage of of Magnet Rise and Toxic respectively. Zone's ability to trap/weaken answers to Specs Latias makes it a great pick for the rising DragMag offenses and its usage at the moment makes me believe that all Skarmory should be running Shed Shell at the moment and one of U-turn/Superpower is mandatory on Scizor nowadays to ensure it doesn't get trapped.


Similarly to Magnezone, Dugtrio is seeing a surge in usage as a trapper that takes on some irritating mons for Latias and friends. CM Latias really appreciates Dugtrio as a partner, whether it's sub, roar, hp fire, or what have you because it traps the ever-annoying Tyranitar as well as the newly rising Specially Defensive Heatran. Dugtrio can be a real headache for teams and forces you to play on your toes around it, as losing your Tyranitar and/or Heatran in the first few turns of a battle is a recipe for disaster. Dugtrio's got a good bit of versatility, being able to trap fat stall mons like Knock Clef with Screech CB and revenging a slew of offensive threats like Infernape, Breloom, weakened Starmie, etc. The main issue with Dugtrio is that building with it is an absolute headache and you have to meticulously edit a team to near-perfection to make sure that using Dugtrio doesn't result in huge ass holes being opened up in your team.


I've mentioned this mon a few times above, but I think that Scizor is really good at the moment, with its ability to use U-turn as a slow pivoting method into the aforementioned trappers as well as acting like a momentum gaining option for offensive teams. I believe that U-turn or Superpower are mandatory on all Scizor sets at the moment because of Magnezone's insane usage, but either way Scizor is as good as it ever has been right now. Choice Sets are really seeing a comeback, with Pursuit trapping Latias being an obvious immediate appeal along with their general effectiveness. Choice Band can really punch holes in teams paired with Hazards + Sand chip racking up together and can really go to town on Skarmory Spikes fat teams when paired with Magnezone while Choice Scarf is a great utility check to things like Gengar and Starmie that irritate offensive teams while also being able to surprise things like offensive Heatran with Scarf Superpower.

Closing Thoughts:
Overall, I'm really enjoying this meta quite a bit at the moment, even if there's a lot of annoying ass Heatran Gliscor shit being used because there's a lot of people actively playing and there's not really anything distinctly "unfun" that wasn't played before. My favorite playstyles to use for the last few days have been dragmag, standard sand offense, and ttar spikes. I encourage you guys to go out there and play some games on the ladder because it's pretty active at the moment, and am really excited that people are actively playing and discussing DPP at the moment. In addition to the ladder being active, smogon's DPP Discord has had a ton of discussion on the topic and I encourage you to join if you wanna chip in your two cents.

P.S: Stop discussing Mew ffs
 
Last edited:
#16
Well, I guess if no one else is going to say it...latias sucks. After playing a dozen games or so on the ladder, it is evident that the omnipresence of jirachi/tyranitar/clef/sp def tran/etc completely nullifies its usefulness. I suspect the high latias usage in the latias dpp tournament has more to do with its novelty and intent of the tour rather than its effectiveness. While an argument can be made to pair latias with trappers like dugtrio/magnezone to make it more effective, I think we can all agree there is nothing enjoyable about exacerbating no-skill trapping strategies over strategic playing. What is worse is that the presence of latias in the meta centralizes pokes such as clef and jirachi even more, both of which already undermines a number of special attackers like offensive suicune, shaymin, other cmers etc. Anyway, I am not against unbanning latias but I don’t see it as having a positive contribution to the meta. If the intent is to diversify dpp, a better approach would be to take a look at pokes such as sp.def jirachi/clefable (twave spam etc), which invalidates a lot of existing offense teams... and possibly dugtrio, which is pretty self explanatory.
 
#17
nobody's saying it because half of what you just said simply isn't true lol. latias obviously doesn't suck. it just had to be unbanned, most teams are running 2 steels + ttar rn, and mons like weavile and mamo are coming out of the woodwork, and your take is latias sucks? I know you're experienced and shit but that first sentence is just click bait bruh and you know it. obviously latias checks are running rampant right now, it was literally just released a day ago (2 now?). and while the meta may completely skewed towards lati right now, that just goes to show how monster of a threat it is vs mons not named ttar / jirachi / bronzong. I agree on the jirachi part, if it was at all possible jirachi just got even better, and twave spam is just as annoying as ever, but i really don't see why that has all too much to do with latias. spd rachi has been a trend for a while and already shut down those special attackers you mentioned. furthermore, let's not act like blissey hasn't always existed, relegating teams that want to use special attackers to using extreme measures to break through anyways. continually, idk why you made it such a point to mention clefable in all of this, as I don't really know what set clef actually 1v1s lati with other than the bad life orb set right now. with any chip damage specs latias 2hkos clef with draco and cm just outright beats clef if it doesn't have toxic, which I don't think is a set.
 
#18
It seems as though the day one honeymoon craze over Latias has actually died down to a considerable degree already, with the ladder not exhibiting nearly as much activity as it did the day before. The few months before Latias was actually enabled on the ladder, I was active in discussion and expressing my strong opposition to Latias. But through open-minded discussion with some very capable players, my attitude toward Latias has lightened. However, through both the open-minded discussion and a decent amount of playtesting both on and off the ladder, I have to say that I am really not enjoying DPP with Latias freed right now. I have pretty much solidified my opinion that Latias should stay banned, and unfortunately this is for more reasons than just its conventional position in the metagame itself.

I don't want to get too into specifics yet about Latias' effect on the meta, but all I will say is that it is certainly not broken and the meta can probably adapt around it. I feel, however, that it is extremely centralizing on the meta and narrows diversity in teambuilding and innovation around teams that do not utilize Latias. And I also feel that right now, team diversity and innovation are some of the most standout and important qualities of DPP. Additionally, if you do not feel that DPP is diverse right now, I don't think the addition of Latias will increase diversity whatsoever regardless. I also want to echo some of osgoode's thoughts, as I think he points to something very important: the centralization Latias causes which, to quote him directly, "undermines a number of special attackers like offensive suicune, shaymin, other cmers etc." Also, to add on to his comments about "the omnipresence of jirachi/tyranitar/clef/sp def tran/etc", I do think people are overpreparing for Latias due to the "honeymoon effect" so to speak, and I don't think that this is reflective of how much Latias sucks. With time and stabilization of the new meta, Latias would perform significantly better.

That said, I wish to challenge the established "necessity" for bringing back Latias after the metagame has stabilized for what I think is 8 years now. The argument against this is that "Latias should not have been banned back in the day, and Salamence skewed the tests", which perhaps is true here, but why, if the fact that mence skewed the tests, didn't this get addressed years ago if this is such an important and devastating factor to the metagame? I also think that this argument does not address the questioned "necessity" for bringing Latias back after the metagame has stabilized for 8 years. Unquestionably the profound effects of Latias' reentry into the meta are multiplied because of the amount of time that has gone by without it in the meta. Perhaps I could be missing some key information regarding the administration, but for now I am genuinely not convinced.

I also want to take a moment to address some of the toxicity within the DPP discord's discussion. Without mentioning names, there are certain high status/importance members of the community who have openly degraded and invalidated other DPP players' opinions on Latias due to the fact that they didn't play the metagame when Latias was not banned. I think this notion is absolutely ridiculous, because one of the most compelling and supporting arguments of freeing Latias is that nobody has played the meta with just Latias and no Salamence. There is a significant amount of time devoted to playtesting Latias on the ladder even before the suspect test takes place. And even though I was playing DPP during a time when Latias was still in the meta, there are many very capable players I know who did not, so I really want to emphasize that condescending and toxic behavior from high importance people should not be acceptable by any standard.

Overall, my main reason for not wanting Latias back in the meta is because the metagame without it has stabilized to what I strongly feel is an extremely healthy meta that does not have the "necessity" for Latias. It's as simple as that for me. As somebody who is uncontested one of the most active DPPers nowadays, I personally have lost interest in DPP with Latias in the mix. I'm expressing my opinions right now in a fleshed out post because these opinions will likely not change at this point (except for those surrounding administration post mence ban that I referenced two paragraphs above). Despite it only being "day 2", there has been a lot of discussion, deliberation, and testing that has led to these opinions being solidified. So it really does not feel like "day 2" at all. Obviously I don't think I will change anybody's already-formulated opinions on Latias, but I just wanted to express mine and the reasons behind them. I both understand and respect why people would like Latias to return, but at the end of the day I will vote to keep it banned.
 
Last edited:
#19
nobody's saying it because half of what you just said simply isn't true lol. latias obviously doesn't suck. it just had to be unbanned, most teams are running 2 steels + ttar rn, and mons like weavile and mamo are coming out of the woodwork, and your take is latias sucks? I know you're experienced and shit but that first sentence is just click bait bruh and you know it. obviously latias checks are running rampant right now, it was literally just released a day ago (2 now?). and while the meta may completely skewed towards lati right now, that just goes to show how monster of a threat it is vs mons not named ttar / jirachi / bronzong. I agree on the jirachi part, if it was at all possible jirachi just got even better, and twave spam is just as annoying as ever, but i really don't see why that has all too much to do with latias. spd rachi has been a trend for a while and already shut down those special attackers you mentioned. furthermore, let's not act like blissey hasn't always existed, relegating teams that want to use special attackers to using extreme measures to break through anyways. continually, idk why you made it such a point to mention clefable in all of this, as I don't really know what set clef actually 1v1s lati with other than the bad life orb set right now. with any chip damage specs latias 2hkos clef with draco and cm just outright beats clef if it doesn't have toxic, which I don't think is a set.
i'm not baiting, i don't think latias is good at the moment (maybe suck was a bit over exaggerated) when the most popular dpp team atm is kevin's ttar/clef/skarm/rachi/nido/rotom squad. I mentioned clef more so in reference to the CM set, but even the specs set does not 2hko clef (unless u run modest). Also, cm latias certainly does not beat clef lol. I have no idea where you got that from, but twave/knock clef (and encore clef which has gotten a lot more popular lately) will beat it 1v1, similar to how wish cm rachi also loses to clef. I dont think latias is considered a top mon in DPP unless u heavily rely on trappers when the most popular dpp teams fall back on cores like bronzong/jirachi/ttar/clef. it is still early in the test stages but that is my observation so far, if i am wrong then i will gladly revoke my post

edit: this is gonna sound counter-intuitive for me to say but i noticed some cm refresh latias being used on the ladder, the set below is much better at preventing jirachi from para flinching you down, as long as u dont switch in on the para move

Latias (F) @ Leftovers
IVs: 0 Atk
- Safeguard
- Calm Mind
- Recover
- Dragon Pulse
 
Last edited:

Fakes

Tournament Banned
is a Past SPL Champion
#20
i like the meta better. ofc every1 is either using lati or overpreparing for it. Eventually the meta will calm down. I dont think shes broken at all. Also the meta isnt really that much changing to me since 2 steels+ttar ttar or 2 steels or steel+ttar was used before aswell. sorry for short and shitty post.
 
#21
First Impressions of the DPP OU + Latias metagame :
As a player who didn't have the chance to play the DPP OU + Latias metagame before, I have to say I'm pleasantly surprised so far. Latias is definitely not a broken pokemon and I'd dare to say it's a bit underwhelming at the moment, for the reasons osgoode described in his posts above. What does not seem underwhelming is its impact on the metagame. I know it's still quite early, but I like the direction the metagame is taking. There is currently a tendency for bulkier builds and therefore, the average game's pace is slower. In my opinion, this will result in a much more balanced and competitive metagame. Furthermore, since Latias' release, we've actually seen some team archetypes making a comeback from the shadow realm, without downgrading the already existing ones. A very nice example is the hail stall team asta posted earlier. This indicates that Latias' comeback may actually increase team diversity, despite the popular belief that Latias would narrow it.
Overall, the first signs seem encouraging to me, but we need to give the metagame more time to develop before jumping into conclusions. We have to keep in mind that this is a brand new metagame and that the playerbase has also evolved since 2010.

"Why is this suspect necessary ?" :
It is necessary simply because we want to play the best possible version of the metagame, while only banning the pokemon that make the metagame "unhealthy". This should be the only factor affecting your vote on the matter. The statement that "oldgens" should not be changed at all implies that they're games that do not deserve the community's attention and time anymore and it's especially disappointing coming from oldgens players. We're the ones keeping these games alive guys ; you need to understand that and everything that comes with it. I'm not saying we should be having suspects every other month, but I think this suspect is totally reasonable and the only reason it didn't happen earlier is the exact same hesitation to change the metagame that many of you show at this very moment. The truth is that even a few years after the ban of the dragons, one of the main reasons to dismiss this suspect was not to disrupt an oldgen metagame so that we could dedicate our time and efforts into improving the current gen metagame. However, smogon has a community big enough that allows it not to indulge in current gen favoritism and actually treat all pokemon games equally.

P.S: I completely agree with excal's comments regarding toxicity on the discord server. Grow the fuck up.
 
#22
Said this before but meta changes like this need a long amount of time to properly evaluate, especially considering the lower volume of games the meta won't actually settle for somewhere in the range of 2-3 months, as this thread indicates with the early discussion demonstrating the centralisation inherent with releasing a new powerhouse.

I strongly advise people to avoid settling their perspectives for a few weeks at the least, see what happens once the counter strategies to the clef/fat steel teams gain in popularity, and then wait until the meta shift to counter those teams to fully evaluate Latias. It will take that long to know if Latias is a stable threat or if Specs/Defensive sets are too much.
 

LL

Waves of Change
is a Pre-Contributor
#23
Said this before but meta changes like this need a long amount of time to properly evaluate, especially considering the lower volume of games the meta won't actually settle for somewhere in the range of 2-3 months, as this thread indicates with the early discussion demonstrating the centralisation inherent with releasing a new powerhouse.

I strongly advise people to avoid settling their perspectives for a few weeks at the least, see what happens once the counter strategies to the clef/fat steel teams gain in popularity, and then wait until the meta shift to counter those teams to fully evaluate Latias. It will take that long to know if Latias is a stable threat or if Specs/Defensive sets are too much.
That’s exactly why the council is saying that they will revisit latias again several months after the vote take place. If latias is freed for example, we can revisit the metagame again in several months to see if latias has centralized the meta or damaged it in a way and possibly ban it at that point if it has worsened the metagame. Ultimately, the goal of decisions like this is to make the metagame become what it’s should be and if we have to take a feel months to do that with latias, I don’t see a problem as long as we reach a desirable conclusion at the end of the process.
 

ABR

is a Tournament Directoris a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a defending SPL Championwon the 13th Official Smogon Tournamentis a defending World Cup of Pokemon Champion
OU Leader
#24
I played a bit on the ladder but I don't have any strong opinions on Latias' impact on the metagame so far. If I had to say right now, it's honestly probably not broken. That being said, I'd like to delve into tiering philosophy and how people should be looking at this test, because Latias' individual brokenness is not the only factor.

First and foremost, a Latias unban would be a change to the status quo. Assuming metagame states before and after a change are equally balanced, we should always opt to not change as to remove the burden of adapting to a different tier list, and requiring a longer amount of time to reach said balance or stabilization. This is especially important in old gens, because there's a smaller amount of games played so metagame development is naturally slower.

Remember, this is an unban and not a traditional ban. We cannot view this as "if Latias isn't fully broken it should be in OU." The reason for an unban is to address specific concerns within a metagame. For example, this can be something to the effect of "sand spikes teams are overly dominant in BW, so instead of limiting those options via bans we'd like to unban Excadrill." If anyone has such opinions regarding Latias, please share them.

When you combine the fact that this is 1) a potential unban and 2) an old gen, the justification for a change should be extremely definitive and thorough. This is an 8(?) year old decision we're talking about in a tier that isn't even in Smogon Tour anymore. We should be looking for concrete reasons to believe Latias would improve the state of the metagame, not the next new toy to play with.
 

Coconut

W
is a Tutoris a Smogon Social Media Contributoris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
Moderator
#25
PDC asked me to post this here.

earlier in the year when the first thread talking about latias’ return to the dpp metagame was brought up i thought about responding to it in attempt to deter its unbanning from actually being realized. i assumed, however, that like every other time latias’ unbanning was brought up it would simply dissipate into a pet project tournament or pipe dream thing that would be talked about in discord chats until the next iteration of it was brought about. this time, i guess people really fell for the dream of freeing latias after its 8 year banishment from the metagame, and this time it might actually require some serious input to prevent a seriously ridiculous crisis in tiering from occuring.

i’d like to thank tony / sam / rui for bringing this to my attention and demonstrating the massive public interest in a suspect for latias that i assumed would only be fleeting. i’ve read most of the posts in this thread (and the PR one) thoroughly and have come to the conclusion that most of you, if not all, are completely missing the point of tiering as a function of competitive pokemon. while i will concede that some of you (i.e. bkc) have valid arguments and are probably right about latias’ actual presence in the metagame (at least in the short-term), i believe that this suspect test is essentially an impasse in the entire tiering of old-gens. a tiering crisis that, if permitted, will let us manipulate and change old-gens ad nauseum -- or just whenever we get tired of it and wish to change it to something different.

before i actually get into the meat of this post and the serious arguments, i’d like to talk about how outright silly one of the noted arguments is. a completely separate thread in an actually privated forum should be made for real discussion, as the public one in RoA is absolutely ridiculous.

on everybody preferring the current (the whole week of it) metagame to the one prior

if you actually believe that “preference” holds any weight in tiering of ANY generation or should, then you’re completely missing the point and should be thrown out of any tiering discussion, period. attributing a metagame’s health or viability to its enjoyability is absolutely out of the question for any tiering regime that wishes to posit itself as genuine or competitive. i developed this opinion after my retirement as TL as i realized just how dangerous a capricious council is to the integrity of any competitive game. i have a very strong suspicion that many of you are confusing metagame health with the rush of fun you get when you include latias into your teambuilder and get to use it on some ladder. metagames should be completely predicated on strict criteria developed in order to manifest the ‘best’ metagame possible. by best, i mean the elimination of everything we deem ‘broken’ or ‘unhealthy,’ terms that i may define later to avoid further conflation with ‘fun.’

ii. on the current state of dpp ou and the public’s response to it
dpp has, for some, reached its logical maxim in its current state. clefable, dugtrio, breloom, ttar, jirachi, para-spam, whatever. dpp has for many grown stale and reflects a metagame which has been dried up of innovation and represents a finished state. whether this is true or not, it seems to have entered even the highest players’ discourse. as per my last post, i don’t care in the slightest if dpp has become a stale, dead, terrible, unplayable, whatever metagame if it is not because of some broken pokemon / mechanic promulgating it. the final form of a metagame is supposed to be its most boring, as the stages it goes through are exhausted and the ability to push the metagame forward is mostly left to a circular diagram of specific counter-teams to the reigning paradigm looping back into a slight modification / tech and then going back to the reigning paradigm. let us assume that for the moment, dpp has reached its conclusion.

dpp’s staleness is not an excuse for modifications of tiering. a metagame can be completely unenjoyable and be the absolute paragon of what should be sought after in a competitive game. the angelicizement of dpp has probably contributed to this backlash at least in part. outsourcing to a theory posited by bkc, the obsession with 2007-2010 as smogon’s golden age and dpp’s hailing as the greatest metagame possessing the highest tier of skill has inevitably contributed to its own destruction. oversaturated with appraise for the past 5 years, dpp has finally reached a point where its late-game metagame sickness is unignorable for the majority -- or maybe the authority’s opinion on the game has just shifted. whatever it is, the desperate grasping for a change in what was previously a publicly celebrated metagame contributes, if not only slightly, to the rush for a change. bw suffered the reverse; instead of being the loved metagame of the masses, it was the one ‘ruined’ by an early tiering decision that essentially doomed the tier to weather wars in its future.

so, dpp is inevitably centralized as nearly every metagame is after a certain point of existing. combine the outright massive playerbase of dpp as opposed to gsc / adv / rby in the past few years, it only makes sense that this would occur to this generation first. the freeing of latias, definitely for some, is a wish to free the metagame from centralization by introducing another aspect to it which supposedly...loosens the current controlling core over its direction? here’s a tip: latias will only increase centralization and make the metagame even more oriented towards trapping, paralysis, and multiple steels + ttar per team. latias is a god damn good pokemon, and its inclusion in the metagame only exaggerates these already existing principles. latias is no solution for centralization -- even if some of you really really want it to be.

iii. is latias broken?

so...is latias broken? well, at the moment, latias probably is not actually broken -- which may just be due to the absolute force the metagame has shifted towards in responding to pokemon reminiscent of latias’ qualities. steels, ttar, u-turners, etc. all limit latias’ viability in the current metagame. osgoode is correct - latias probably does suck because of the sheer unfriendliness manifested against it in the meta’s current state. people are overpreparing for it like hell, and i am going to extend my own thoughts that this entire ladder phase is unnatural and absolutely useless as a picture into the metagame, as is the latias-centric tournament hosted a few months ago.

yep, both of these isolated experiments are absolutely garbage and worthless. the sample size of players involved in this suspect / tournament are either a) not even using latias-meta based teams in a suspect supposed to test its viability, or b) overestimating / specifically catering to latias’ inclusion in the metagame. unless suspect tests hosted in current gens, in which we get an organic picture of a pokemon’s performance in the metagame, we are instead intentionally gaining a biased picture of how this pokemon will perform in the metagame.

unlike excadrill which ran through multiple spl seasons, multiple smogon tours, multiple official circuits, and multiple side tours which contributed to a holistic picture of its unbanning, the latias ladder is hopelessly biased and proves absolutely nothing about its entrance into the metagame. latias’ is it / isn’t it broken status contributes to this ambiguity -- nobody is really quite sure how to approach it. people are intentionally manipulating latias’ presence in the metagame, and there is absolutely nothing anybody can do about it unless this little test is extended to an incredibly grand scale. you want to prove latias isn’t broken and actually organically test its viability? test it en masse over the course of thousands of tournament games over a circuit of about a year (because it isn’t the main metagame anymore) and then get back to me on whether latias actually is / isn’t broken. this isolated ladder test is garbage. all it tells me is that people want latias to be unbanned because of the obvious bias towards its existence in the metagame. people can’t really help this, of course, as the metagame is so small and isolated in building and testing that its a natural occurrence for a pokemon being retested or dropped down.

if the dpp council actually wants to be credible, unban it based upon your own lengthy hypotheticals and personal experience than letting this sham of a test actually play out.

so...is latias broken? if the metagame evens out and takes a turn away from its current stance - which i don’t see it doing anytime soon - then latias may still possess some incredibly powerful qualities. the main argument for latias’ innocence is that its banning was unjustly conflated with the impact of a stronger threat in salamence, which possesses qualities that allow for the absolute destruction of teams that otherwise would wall latias heavily. this also brings up the question of is latias only not broken because the entire metagame is catered towards it specific faults? eh, who cares.

iv. latias being broken doesn’t matter

this is the real part of the argument: latias’ brokenness doesn’t matter at all and the judgment of latias now is inevitably opposed to what we considered broken in the past; our judgments don’t matter, dpp is a finished metagame except for anomalous circumstances such as baton pass which threaten the competitive integrity of the game itself.

tiering has always been consistently re-fashioned one generation to the next. we like to imagine our terms of ‘broken’ and ‘unhealthy’ have maintained the same over the stretch of nearly a decade, but the small but evident shift in tiering perspective has rendered these terms completely subjective and floating up in the air. tiering has fundamentally changed in the past decade, and even if it isn’t perceived as so, the type of things we consider broken have shifted. consider the old definitions we used to use which now lie completely defunct; the last attempt to revive them in modern tier usage was probably during the late bw era, if even that late. slowly but surely, through every generation we have altered what we consider broken and now we seek to apply the current definition to a Pokémon banned under criteria vastly different than what we used back when it was originally banned.

tiering and our approach to it has fundamentally changed whether you all like it or not -- and i believe that the retroactive application of these newly developed concepts onto latias is a nearsighted attempt to set a dangerous precedent. for the past 4 years we have toiled with bw to no end -- and for what? the original banning of chlorophyll was done on the same whim as we approach latias now. a few users (usually powerful, influential) get tired of a metagame and wish to change it for their own selfish enjoyability. you can easily imagine and propagate a tiering idea when the rest of the forum adores you and turns you into a cult personality. or, maybe they're just too afraid to oppose you because of internet points.

i’d extend this specifically to ojama (as i was even asked to post this on behalf of certain users not wanting to do it themselves) as i give bkc the benefit of the doubt in the purity of his drive to ‘fix’ dpp. but in the unbanning of latias, we finally reach the absolute peak of favorable tiering and will reach a bw-esque cycle of favoritism towards trends and patterns. we get bored with a metagame, we seek to alter it in the only way we can: ban or drop mons over and over until we move so far away from the original intent of the metagames crafters.

we unbanned excadrill to ‘fix’ the reuniclus based metagame of 2 ish years ago, then after a period of delusion in which we all deemed excadrill to ‘suck anyway,’ we realized it was more problematic than ever thought, and had to ban sand rush outright to preserve its legality. while not ostensibly a complex ban, we recovered excadrill through alterations to definitions and arguments that posit sand rush as the intrinsic problem. poor windsong, i guess.

so here we are again. we're ready to completely alter a metagame again because our preferences have shifted so greatly and we've become bored with it. just as we became bored with bw and decided to put it through a revolving door of alterations and rhetorical gymnastics. old metagames should be left alone purely for the reason that our eyes will never be able to adjust to how we handled them in their time -- forget a gap period of 8 years in tiering. if we keep allowing repeated changes to metagames because we “know better” then soon we'll reach a point of constant changes and cycling through banlists which invalidates the years of posted material done both on the site and the forum. we either consider metagames dead and finished, or we liken them completely to the current generation. the latter precedent allows us to alter metagames at will and continue the perpetual cyclical approach we now take towards tiering to new heights. bw’s constant fluctuations should serve as the best counterpoint to arbitrary flavor of the month tiering -- yet we still seek to make the same mistake. the ‘slippery slope’ argument is very real when tiering of old gens can essentially be attributed to the whims of a few top players (which happen to be the same every single time).

old generation councils should not be mechanisms to reform tiers in the absence of public consent. they should be purely reactionary after a metagame’s official death in the presence of a new generation. despite my own personal grievances with tiering over the years, i recognize that once a metagame is settled and finished unless an exceptional circumstance arises no new bans / drops should take place. as much as i wish i could turn back time and prevent mega sableye from being banned (it really isn’t broken) i will never support a current campaign to drop it back down to overused for the sake of metagame preservation.
 

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 3, Guests: 0)

Top