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OU DPP OU Teambuilding Competition
- Thread starter Oatmon
- Start date
Sevenor3 
fidget cubic
My vote goes to ImZer0 because I think his team is really well done, with excellent synergies and no forced elements, perfectly reflecting my playstyle.
I also appreciate Krystyl's idea for the Gravity team - it's something I consideredand and started testing (https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen4ou-2129657210) before switching to a more standard strategy. Great job, everyone!
I also appreciate Krystyl's idea for the Gravity team - it's something I consideredand and started testing (https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen4ou-2129657210) before switching to a more standard strategy. Great job, everyone!
Congratulation to Kristyl for winning this week!
Her team : https://pokepast.es/47aef75481781e1d
Now, you'll build around around Moltres !
Moltres has good attributes in my opinion and building around it is definitely challenging, hence why this is the mon of the week. We've often seen moltres on hard stall with 2 spinners and I think this style is cool and underexplored (I just built a very unique fat moltres a few days ago). However, I think it's also viable in some offenses so i'll let you try to cook something with it. Hf
Edit: Thread is on break for like one week or two
Her team : https://pokepast.es/47aef75481781e1d
Now, you'll build around around Moltres !
Moltres has good attributes in my opinion and building around it is definitely challenging, hence why this is the mon of the week. We've often seen moltres on hard stall with 2 spinners and I think this style is cool and underexplored (I just built a very unique fat moltres a few days ago). However, I think it's also viable in some offenses so i'll let you try to cook something with it. Hf
Edit: Thread is on break for like one week or two
Attachments
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I opted for an offensive set of Moltres, Modest with Sub + 3 attacks to abuse paralysis:
As is well known in DPP, the status that turns out to be the most effective is paralysis, the new tendency towards offensiveness and the passing of the figure of the cleric into oblivion can only help to make paralysis more and more fearsome. And this is why I decided to opt for a fairly resistant parashuffling, based as regards the defensive part on a sort of mix between standard countering and defense.
Theoretically the team should weaken the opposing Pokemon with indirect damage and then hit heavily in the lategame.
Supporters
The Supporters are the Pokemon who will have the task of helping the team in setting the very useful entry hazards. For these roles the choice fell on Swampert and Forretress.
I chose a totally physical set for Swampert to have a better chance against Tyranitar, Zapdos
Paraspammers
Here are the key Pokemon for the team to function, without the ability to spam paralysis around the team wouldn't have been able to go anywhere. The choice to fulfill this task could only involve my favorite DPP paraspammers: Celebi and Rotom-W. Why my favorites? Because they are two paraspammers capable of hitting most Grounds immune to paralysis for an easy OHKO. These two Pokemon, in addition to covering the team's weaknesses in an excellent way, are capable of stemming Pokemon that could prove to be quite annoying for the team.
This guy manages to counter some of the most fearsome Pokemon in the metagame (Scizor, Metagross, Gyarados, Mamoswine, Togekiss anyone?), given the lack of WoW given the use of Thunder Wave, it seemed appropriate to play the Reflect to have a greater coverage against physical threats. DPP is a metagame tending towards physicality, so Reflect, in conjunction with Pokemon with excellent defensive power and excellent Typing, allows me to stop any attack attempt by physical sweepers. As if that wasn't enough, Reflect is great for letting Machamp and Moltres set up the sub.
In most cases, the opponent, not expecting a similar team, tends to switch to Celebi scoundrels like Heatran, Lucario, Infernape, Tyranitar, Metagross, Scizor or Forretress and this naughty guy will punish them all.
Earth Power OHKOes the first three and 2HkOs Metagross, Scizor and Forrettress, Leaf Storm devastates Tyranitar and is an excellent Stab main to take down some pokemon in the middle of the game.
Rest instead of Recover because this Celebi tends to never stay on the field for more than 2 consecutive turns, which is why I preferred a 100% recovery accompanied by Natural Cure. Speed EVs allow it to outspeed and revenge kill Lucario.
Celebi is another Pokemon with an immense typing, capable of covering the most absurd weaknesses and working very well in tandem with Moltres and Rotom-W.
Abusers
Moltres and Machamp are the Pokemon at the base of the team's offensive maneuver. They divinely abuse the paralysis and screen previously set to be able to violently hit the opposing team.
As always, I gave priority to my strategy and by testing the team manages to contain big threats, in particular some sets of Latias or Cresselia.
As is well known in DPP, the status that turns out to be the most effective is paralysis, the new tendency towards offensiveness and the passing of the figure of the cleric into oblivion can only help to make paralysis more and more fearsome. And this is why I decided to opt for a fairly resistant parashuffling, based as regards the defensive part on a sort of mix between standard countering and defense.
Theoretically the team should weaken the opposing Pokemon with indirect damage and then hit heavily in the lategame.
Supporters
The Supporters are the Pokemon who will have the task of helping the team in setting the very useful entry hazards. For these roles the choice fell on Swampert and Forretress.
I chose a totally physical set for Swampert to have a better chance against Tyranitar, Zapdos
Paraspammers
Here are the key Pokemon for the team to function, without the ability to spam paralysis around the team wouldn't have been able to go anywhere. The choice to fulfill this task could only involve my favorite DPP paraspammers: Celebi and Rotom-W. Why my favorites? Because they are two paraspammers capable of hitting most Grounds immune to paralysis for an easy OHKO. These two Pokemon, in addition to covering the team's weaknesses in an excellent way, are capable of stemming Pokemon that could prove to be quite annoying for the team.
This guy manages to counter some of the most fearsome Pokemon in the metagame (Scizor, Metagross, Gyarados, Mamoswine, Togekiss anyone?), given the lack of WoW given the use of Thunder Wave, it seemed appropriate to play the Reflect to have a greater coverage against physical threats. DPP is a metagame tending towards physicality, so Reflect, in conjunction with Pokemon with excellent defensive power and excellent Typing, allows me to stop any attack attempt by physical sweepers. As if that wasn't enough, Reflect is great for letting Machamp and Moltres set up the sub.
In most cases, the opponent, not expecting a similar team, tends to switch to Celebi scoundrels like Heatran, Lucario, Infernape, Tyranitar, Metagross, Scizor or Forretress and this naughty guy will punish them all.
Earth Power OHKOes the first three and 2HkOs Metagross, Scizor and Forrettress, Leaf Storm devastates Tyranitar and is an excellent Stab main to take down some pokemon in the middle of the game.
Rest instead of Recover because this Celebi tends to never stay on the field for more than 2 consecutive turns, which is why I preferred a 100% recovery accompanied by Natural Cure. Speed EVs allow it to outspeed and revenge kill Lucario.
Celebi is another Pokemon with an immense typing, capable of covering the most absurd weaknesses and working very well in tandem with Moltres and Rotom-W.
Abusers
Moltres and Machamp are the Pokemon at the base of the team's offensive maneuver. They divinely abuse the paralysis and screen previously set to be able to violently hit the opposing team.
As always, I gave priority to my strategy and by testing the team manages to contain big threats, in particular some sets of Latias or Cresselia.
insane shit... (pokepast.es)
:starmie: :moltres: :donphan: :celebi: :jirachi: :weavile:
originally i wasnt really interested in building around another shitmon (though moltres is admittedly probably the best mon in the E rank on the current viability rankings), but i chose to anyway and had a blast. gonna go through picks in chronological order of how i chose them rather than any kind of role order
:moltres: is obv the pokeman of the hour. i made the decision that this would be a toxic spam team as opposed to the normal status spam of paralysis, as moltres is one of the better mons in this nitch and is also is just a decent, underrated teamstyle. bounced between sub and hp ground for a while before deciding on hp ground due to my item choice not being able to justify sub like you usually would. speaking of which, lum looks funny but i *promise*, it feels so much better than lefties. it allows for a free switchin to breloom, machamp, bronzong and jirachi. the idea of moltres is to piss off the steel types that usually stop you from using toxic (and also breloom).
:donphan: was the third mon i considered, briefly contemplating restcycles claydol before deciding i havent explored that sets flaws enough to put it in here (and also that i dont want to get pigeonholed). there are four ways to use moltres; in the lead slot, on a HO team that prevents rocks, with a rapid spinner, and poorly. donphan was the rocker for a while before realising that donphan would porbably be too overloaded between trying to get rocks up, keeping rocks off, and still needing to preserve its hp to live a +2 luc cc, a +1 dnite outrage or general tar crunches if it came down to it. i decided instead to run protect, making donphan so much more comfy with his bulk and putting you on much less of a timer. if donphan goes down, moltres goes down, so it really helps to not have donphan bogged down and unable to do his job. or, that would be the case, if not for
:starmie:! this starmie set has an ok matchup into all the common leads, with few enough duds to warrant usage (never needing to come in to get rocks off is also nice since spinners take rocks damage). briefly blastoise before realising recover+speed>>>>>>>>>whatever utility you can get from fake out in the lead slot, especially since you kinda like the opp being at one health for a rapid spin KO. having two spinners is honestly a really good idea on a team with a mon like moltres since moltres is about as useful as a square wheel when rocks are up, so if the spinner dies, a second mon dies. it also becomes a lot harder to bottleneck and overwhelm the spinner thats otherwise trying to do too much (starmie and donphan are doing a lot more than just spinning here). also finishes off the fwg core this team had (i had breloom in at the time). this team opts for no ice beam on starmie since we have ice shard donphan and weavile alongside the fact that the other moves are just... more valuable for starmie to dominate water types and have stab while doing its main job. can be a gyara check but preferably not.
:jirachi: at this point i wanted a steel type and a secondary stealth rock user so that donphan wouldnt have too much pressure to get rocks up. i ended up not going with stealth rocks on jirachi, and instead going with them on celebi. toxic makes iron head spam insanely deadly for anything thats weak to toxic and slower than it. the combo beats rest rotom and suicune who otherwise dunk on rachi, and is otherwise just nifty. wish and lefties also help. wish uturn is my personal signature as far as jirachi sets go, you can feel not having protect, but it should be managable if the enemy team isnt too fast. uturn is also nice for getting tf out of magnezone which otherwise obliterates this rachi set. decent clef answer if pacing didnt go your way with weav shit. this is the specs latias answer (and latias answer in general)
:celebi: after not putting rocks on donphan and not putting rocks on jirachi, i decided to switch out breloom for celebi. im not complaining fwiw, celebi has great defensive synergy. that being said, it was a nightmare to decide what set to run on it, because ultimately it was always trying to do too much. there was a heal bell set that didnt run recover. there was a swords dance set. there was a 4 utility move set with no attacks that i genuinely considered. the problem here was that i wanted both stealth rock and leech seed; great moves, but after the mandatory recover it left you with one attacking move. speaking of that attacking move, zen headbutt is sure to raise a few eyebrows, but i promies its legit. flinching alongside leech seed or toxic or whatever you managed to put up is great, and while i wanted to run grass knot, you dont get walled by breloom who youre meant to check, you dont get walled by (long fucking list im not going over). opted over psychic for the flinch chance, though its purely personal preference as to which of the two you choose.
:weavile: its fuckin spooky how well this guy fit into the team. we have two spinners and half the team is designed to fuck over steel types, and on top of that, the pokemon that were the most problematic were clefable, rotom, latias, starmie, sub zapdos and gengar. weaviles biggest problem in dpp is just not doing enough damage, so a very unconventional lorb was opted for over expert belt. this plays into weaviles second biggest problem, its longevity, but we have leech celebi, two spinners and wishturn jirachi, its hopefully fine. id reccomend against clicking swords dance unless you know your opponent is going to switch out, or its a clef. swords dance is purely here for breaking clefable (and also being a general useful click). opted against ice shard because any mon thats faster than weavile is either a boost sweeper or can be dealt with by donphans ice shard (and also it was hard to slot off). i generally think weav is a shitmon (worse than moltres), but he did fit quite nicely here
moltres (pokepast.es) at one point the team looked like this by complete accident and the only difference was my choice of water type rapid spinner and choice of steel/psychic. its around this time i chose to not use breloom. to any onlookers who just want to run a moltres team, this was made by bkc and is prob your best bet
edit: after using this, im convinced wish jirachi that isnt fast af and doesnt have protect is unviable. switching uturn for protect
:starmie: :moltres: :donphan: :celebi: :jirachi: :weavile:
originally i wasnt really interested in building around another shitmon (though moltres is admittedly probably the best mon in the E rank on the current viability rankings), but i chose to anyway and had a blast. gonna go through picks in chronological order of how i chose them rather than any kind of role order
:moltres: is obv the pokeman of the hour. i made the decision that this would be a toxic spam team as opposed to the normal status spam of paralysis, as moltres is one of the better mons in this nitch and is also is just a decent, underrated teamstyle. bounced between sub and hp ground for a while before deciding on hp ground due to my item choice not being able to justify sub like you usually would. speaking of which, lum looks funny but i *promise*, it feels so much better than lefties. it allows for a free switchin to breloom, machamp, bronzong and jirachi. the idea of moltres is to piss off the steel types that usually stop you from using toxic (and also breloom).
:donphan: was the third mon i considered, briefly contemplating restcycles claydol before deciding i havent explored that sets flaws enough to put it in here (and also that i dont want to get pigeonholed). there are four ways to use moltres; in the lead slot, on a HO team that prevents rocks, with a rapid spinner, and poorly. donphan was the rocker for a while before realising that donphan would porbably be too overloaded between trying to get rocks up, keeping rocks off, and still needing to preserve its hp to live a +2 luc cc, a +1 dnite outrage or general tar crunches if it came down to it. i decided instead to run protect, making donphan so much more comfy with his bulk and putting you on much less of a timer. if donphan goes down, moltres goes down, so it really helps to not have donphan bogged down and unable to do his job. or, that would be the case, if not for
:starmie:! this starmie set has an ok matchup into all the common leads, with few enough duds to warrant usage (never needing to come in to get rocks off is also nice since spinners take rocks damage). briefly blastoise before realising recover+speed>>>>>>>>>whatever utility you can get from fake out in the lead slot, especially since you kinda like the opp being at one health for a rapid spin KO. having two spinners is honestly a really good idea on a team with a mon like moltres since moltres is about as useful as a square wheel when rocks are up, so if the spinner dies, a second mon dies. it also becomes a lot harder to bottleneck and overwhelm the spinner thats otherwise trying to do too much (starmie and donphan are doing a lot more than just spinning here). also finishes off the fwg core this team had (i had breloom in at the time). this team opts for no ice beam on starmie since we have ice shard donphan and weavile alongside the fact that the other moves are just... more valuable for starmie to dominate water types and have stab while doing its main job. can be a gyara check but preferably not.
:jirachi: at this point i wanted a steel type and a secondary stealth rock user so that donphan wouldnt have too much pressure to get rocks up. i ended up not going with stealth rocks on jirachi, and instead going with them on celebi. toxic makes iron head spam insanely deadly for anything thats weak to toxic and slower than it. the combo beats rest rotom and suicune who otherwise dunk on rachi, and is otherwise just nifty. wish and lefties also help. wish uturn is my personal signature as far as jirachi sets go, you can feel not having protect, but it should be managable if the enemy team isnt too fast. uturn is also nice for getting tf out of magnezone which otherwise obliterates this rachi set. decent clef answer if pacing didnt go your way with weav shit. this is the specs latias answer (and latias answer in general)
:celebi: after not putting rocks on donphan and not putting rocks on jirachi, i decided to switch out breloom for celebi. im not complaining fwiw, celebi has great defensive synergy. that being said, it was a nightmare to decide what set to run on it, because ultimately it was always trying to do too much. there was a heal bell set that didnt run recover. there was a swords dance set. there was a 4 utility move set with no attacks that i genuinely considered. the problem here was that i wanted both stealth rock and leech seed; great moves, but after the mandatory recover it left you with one attacking move. speaking of that attacking move, zen headbutt is sure to raise a few eyebrows, but i promies its legit. flinching alongside leech seed or toxic or whatever you managed to put up is great, and while i wanted to run grass knot, you dont get walled by breloom who youre meant to check, you dont get walled by (long fucking list im not going over). opted over psychic for the flinch chance, though its purely personal preference as to which of the two you choose.
:weavile: its fuckin spooky how well this guy fit into the team. we have two spinners and half the team is designed to fuck over steel types, and on top of that, the pokemon that were the most problematic were clefable, rotom, latias, starmie, sub zapdos and gengar. weaviles biggest problem in dpp is just not doing enough damage, so a very unconventional lorb was opted for over expert belt. this plays into weaviles second biggest problem, its longevity, but we have leech celebi, two spinners and wishturn jirachi, its hopefully fine. id reccomend against clicking swords dance unless you know your opponent is going to switch out, or its a clef. swords dance is purely here for breaking clefable (and also being a general useful click). opted against ice shard because any mon thats faster than weavile is either a boost sweeper or can be dealt with by donphans ice shard (and also it was hard to slot off). i generally think weav is a shitmon (worse than moltres), but he did fit quite nicely here
moltres (pokepast.es) at one point the team looked like this by complete accident and the only difference was my choice of water type rapid spinner and choice of steel/psychic. its around this time i chose to not use breloom. to any onlookers who just want to run a moltres team, this was made by bkc and is prob your best bet
edit: after using this, im convinced wish jirachi that isnt fast af and doesnt have protect is unviable. switching uturn for protect
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:moltres: :metagross: :azelf: :breloom: :tyranitar: :latias:
I decided to go for lead Moltres because I didn't want to build around the aforementioned 2x Spin Stall structures and I felt like playing non-lead Moltres with only Starmie would not be sustainable in the long run. In that case Zapdos does the same job but better anyway imo.
Lead Moltres has an incredibly high variance in its matchups, so for me the best way to use it would be to further abuse winning matchups, while covering the worst ones like Aerodactyl through different means. I decided for Life Orb instead of Specs/Charcoal because it hits some important numbers ("safe": 2HKO on Clef, OHKO non sash Azelf, OHKO with HP Ground on non Shuca Utility Heatran) while still being able to abuse a t1 switch, due to hitting a very favourable lead matchup like Metagross or Jirachi. The most common things to come in on Fire Blast tend to either get lured by HP Ground (=Heatran) or really dislike getting chipped and burned (=Swampert, Tyranitar, Gyarados). I scrapped U-Turn because with Life Orb and no spinner preserving Moltres and getting small chip often was worse than spreading a burn or getting the information that Gyara/TTar can't carry Wacan/Shuca/Chople as well so I can safely revenge them even after lum activation and setup. Protect is to catch boom from sash Azelf and to scout potential choice users coming in.
Sadly Moltres high variance doesn't stop with the matchup itself which means in roughly 1/6 of the games it will either miss Fire Blast or Will O and not offer much in the process.
I really wanted to use Protect 3 attacks Metagross with Moltres because it appreciates Heatran being lured, can revenge kill both DDnite and DDtar at +1 with some investment and offers an out for some of Moltres worst Matchups like Aerodactyl/Tyranitar. This set can really go a long way with Protect and Healing Wish support, while offering information gain and having boom as a last resort option. The spread hits an Atk breakpoint while giving it slight to decent odds at avoiding a 2HKO from stuff like 252+ Metagross EQ or LO Gengar Shadow Ball after another Leftovers activation due to Protect. I'm gonna be honest there is probably a lot of room for improvement or specialisation if you want to make sure to survive either of those at the expense of some Atk.
Latias is pretty self explanatory here as it both functions as a revenge killer for stuff that can set up on Moltres and as a second life for either Moltres (should it for whatever reason survive the first 3 Turns), Metagross or DD Tyranitar. It provides a useful ground immunity for Metagross and a much needed water resist as well.
I decided to go for DDtar as my win con because the existing members and Breloom invite various forms of Rotom or Latias in, which it can get traction on, and give it enough room to even set up for a second try with the help of Latias Healing Wish.
Breloom was kind of needed because the team didn't have any form of reliably dealing with various forms of Swampert and had a really bad stall MU so far. Originally I wanted to go for SD Loom but I realized I really needed Spore to put Skarm asleep so DDtar can avoid Whirlwind. Depending on how worried you are about "fringe" threats like SD Lucario dropping Mach Punch might be the correct Choice to free up a slot for SD/Facade. Personally I encountered more Lucarios than anticipated while testing so I chose this spread to survive +2 Espeed and then be able to safely remove it with Mach Punch after either some previous chip or a CC drop. Surviving +1 Gyara Ice fang is a nice byproduct as well. Mach Punch can be quite nice to finish off a chipped shuca Heatran (Thank you Moltres!) as well, so keep that in mind when deciding for the fourth slot. Various forms of heatran can be quite scary otherwise.
So for the last slot I had to find a unicorn. Because I was still lacking:
Stealth Rocks, a way to deal with fast bulky waters like Milo and Cune, something to break holes for either Breloom or Tyranitar to capitalize on and a second ground immunity that is alive after turn 3.
Originally I had SR, Twave, Psychic, Knock Uxie in this slot, which offered at least some annoyance with Knock Off but ultimately I decided against it because I really wanted a second Explosion to preserve Metagross for the endgame where it really can shine after a Healing Wish.
Azelf somehow does most of this. After testing it a bit I was able to create multiple situations where the threat of boom was enough to let me get out rocks and then still threaten the switch-in. Which most of the time would be either a steel type or Gengar/Rotom, which then get heavily chunked by Fire Blast/Psychic or in the case of scarf Rotom turn into a setup opportunity for DDtar. Lum Berry was the item choice so it gets a one time switch into Breloom / can avoid getting Body Slam para'd by Jirachi to get a clean 2HKO with Fire Blast even on defensive variants (not 252+ SpD obviously).
The HP investment allows it to survive +1 Modest Suicune Surf and gives it a 60% Chance to survive +1 Timid Hydro Pump without rocks should Suicune come in on Moltres and proceed to CM. Most of the time the sole threat of Explosion should be enough to force Suicune out and allows for rocks to go up so the 40% Chance for Hydro can be avoided.
Overall while building around Moltres in theory was quite fun, playing this was a mental test due to the huge amount of variance both in the lead matchups and the problem that both Moltres and Metagross rely heavily on 85% / 75% hit chance moves which resulted in some threats avoiding a certain fate.
I'm not quite satisfied with what I ended up with because the team feels inconsistent against some common structures but I'm happy with some of the ideas I was able to explore, which on its own could very well be a good fit on a more consistent team without Moltres.
I decided to go for lead Moltres because I didn't want to build around the aforementioned 2x Spin Stall structures and I felt like playing non-lead Moltres with only Starmie would not be sustainable in the long run. In that case Zapdos does the same job but better anyway imo.
Lead Moltres has an incredibly high variance in its matchups, so for me the best way to use it would be to further abuse winning matchups, while covering the worst ones like Aerodactyl through different means. I decided for Life Orb instead of Specs/Charcoal because it hits some important numbers ("safe": 2HKO on Clef, OHKO non sash Azelf, OHKO with HP Ground on non Shuca Utility Heatran) while still being able to abuse a t1 switch, due to hitting a very favourable lead matchup like Metagross or Jirachi. The most common things to come in on Fire Blast tend to either get lured by HP Ground (=Heatran) or really dislike getting chipped and burned (=Swampert, Tyranitar, Gyarados). I scrapped U-Turn because with Life Orb and no spinner preserving Moltres and getting small chip often was worse than spreading a burn or getting the information that Gyara/TTar can't carry Wacan/Shuca/Chople as well so I can safely revenge them even after lum activation and setup. Protect is to catch boom from sash Azelf and to scout potential choice users coming in.
Sadly Moltres high variance doesn't stop with the matchup itself which means in roughly 1/6 of the games it will either miss Fire Blast or Will O and not offer much in the process.
I really wanted to use Protect 3 attacks Metagross with Moltres because it appreciates Heatran being lured, can revenge kill both DDnite and DDtar at +1 with some investment and offers an out for some of Moltres worst Matchups like Aerodactyl/Tyranitar. This set can really go a long way with Protect and Healing Wish support, while offering information gain and having boom as a last resort option. The spread hits an Atk breakpoint while giving it slight to decent odds at avoiding a 2HKO from stuff like 252+ Metagross EQ or LO Gengar Shadow Ball after another Leftovers activation due to Protect. I'm gonna be honest there is probably a lot of room for improvement or specialisation if you want to make sure to survive either of those at the expense of some Atk.
Latias is pretty self explanatory here as it both functions as a revenge killer for stuff that can set up on Moltres and as a second life for either Moltres (should it for whatever reason survive the first 3 Turns), Metagross or DD Tyranitar. It provides a useful ground immunity for Metagross and a much needed water resist as well.
I decided to go for DDtar as my win con because the existing members and Breloom invite various forms of Rotom or Latias in, which it can get traction on, and give it enough room to even set up for a second try with the help of Latias Healing Wish.
Breloom was kind of needed because the team didn't have any form of reliably dealing with various forms of Swampert and had a really bad stall MU so far. Originally I wanted to go for SD Loom but I realized I really needed Spore to put Skarm asleep so DDtar can avoid Whirlwind. Depending on how worried you are about "fringe" threats like SD Lucario dropping Mach Punch might be the correct Choice to free up a slot for SD/Facade. Personally I encountered more Lucarios than anticipated while testing so I chose this spread to survive +2 Espeed and then be able to safely remove it with Mach Punch after either some previous chip or a CC drop. Surviving +1 Gyara Ice fang is a nice byproduct as well. Mach Punch can be quite nice to finish off a chipped shuca Heatran (Thank you Moltres!) as well, so keep that in mind when deciding for the fourth slot. Various forms of heatran can be quite scary otherwise.
So for the last slot I had to find a unicorn. Because I was still lacking:
Stealth Rocks, a way to deal with fast bulky waters like Milo and Cune, something to break holes for either Breloom or Tyranitar to capitalize on and a second ground immunity that is alive after turn 3.
Originally I had SR, Twave, Psychic, Knock Uxie in this slot, which offered at least some annoyance with Knock Off but ultimately I decided against it because I really wanted a second Explosion to preserve Metagross for the endgame where it really can shine after a Healing Wish.
Azelf somehow does most of this. After testing it a bit I was able to create multiple situations where the threat of boom was enough to let me get out rocks and then still threaten the switch-in. Which most of the time would be either a steel type or Gengar/Rotom, which then get heavily chunked by Fire Blast/Psychic or in the case of scarf Rotom turn into a setup opportunity for DDtar. Lum Berry was the item choice so it gets a one time switch into Breloom / can avoid getting Body Slam para'd by Jirachi to get a clean 2HKO with Fire Blast even on defensive variants (not 252+ SpD obviously).
The HP investment allows it to survive +1 Modest Suicune Surf and gives it a 60% Chance to survive +1 Timid Hydro Pump without rocks should Suicune come in on Moltres and proceed to CM. Most of the time the sole threat of Explosion should be enough to force Suicune out and allows for rocks to go up so the 40% Chance for Hydro can be avoided.
Overall while building around Moltres in theory was quite fun, playing this was a mental test due to the huge amount of variance both in the lead matchups and the problem that both Moltres and Metagross rely heavily on 85% / 75% hit chance moves which resulted in some threats avoiding a certain fate.
I'm not quite satisfied with what I ended up with because the team feels inconsistent against some common structures but I'm happy with some of the ideas I was able to explore, which on its own could very well be a good fit on a more consistent team without Moltres.
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well since SoS is threatening to wrap this up on discord, i should probably get this done. Moltres... is weird, its not without interesting traits...but the Achilles Heel is impossible to miss. So as interesting as its ability to dominate the steels with its typing is, that I went for a different route to limit its pebble problem, lead specs.
https://pokepast.es/90992e8be2ba2aeb
Modest specs makes moltres so incredibly powerful if the opposing lead isn't sash, able to immediately kill or bulky and fire resistant it will drop. I had HP Grass, but ultimately settled on HP Ground after Dridri457 beat the shit out of me on ladder with specs eruption heatran, it was just too clear molt was giving a mon i did not want to play a long game against, way too many opportunities. I opted for Donphan as the spinner since it checks or threatens a lot of things that want to use rock moves into moltres, knock could, and probably should be assurance, but i wanted to give knock phan another run. Gyara is always a good payoff and loom just makes offense better. Latias can hwish molt, Gyara or even rachi back up, even providing avenues to get molt in healthy even with rocks up. This team needed the defensive utility and durability from rachi, as much as i'd like to have meta, or even zong here, rocks protect ihead bs/fp has just been feeling really good lately so i brought this set back from Cubic and my Shaymin sub. Team has been a blast, even if it has its flaws, watching molt just delete things has been particularly entertaining.
https://pokepast.es/90992e8be2ba2aeb
Modest specs makes moltres so incredibly powerful if the opposing lead isn't sash, able to immediately kill or bulky and fire resistant it will drop. I had HP Grass, but ultimately settled on HP Ground after Dridri457 beat the shit out of me on ladder with specs eruption heatran, it was just too clear molt was giving a mon i did not want to play a long game against, way too many opportunities. I opted for Donphan as the spinner since it checks or threatens a lot of things that want to use rock moves into moltres, knock could, and probably should be assurance, but i wanted to give knock phan another run. Gyara is always a good payoff and loom just makes offense better. Latias can hwish molt, Gyara or even rachi back up, even providing avenues to get molt in healthy even with rocks up. This team needed the defensive utility and durability from rachi, as much as i'd like to have meta, or even zong here, rocks protect ihead bs/fp has just been feeling really good lately so i brought this set back from Cubic and my Shaymin sub. Team has been a blast, even if it has its flaws, watching molt just delete things has been particularly entertaining.
From Ilsolitostronzo
From Sevenor3
From Bygone Days
From fidgety
Votes start from now on. Deadline: Next Tuesday, in the evening (+1)
Voting for Bygone Days, he struck the best balance of conventional vs. totally unhinged building
i don't really think the teams from ilso or sevenor beats stall, outside of machamp and iron head shenanigans, i think fidgety's one is ok as it can gets some wins but moltres as a specs mon is too prediction reliant, tyranitar latias heatran are common switches and it's pretty hard to guess which one will come, such a choice specs mon wanna come often on the field and SR weakness makes it bad in this role here donphan helps a bit though i would indeed prefer assurance over knock off.
At first when i looked at bygone team i was thinking that scarf latias as ur water resist when u play moltres lead is hard to play since empoleon one hit ko but thinking again since u have no spin support u just attack and put him to sash, if it kills u then no SR for him and u're good to go and u beneficiate of some nice mu with will o, and u're pretty good into machamp since they rarely plays stone edge. if i were playing the team i might have more spdef and lum on meta but that's player dependant, might also have sr on it and have gyara over azelf since u like the tendancies of anti leads to prevent SR
so i vote Bygone Days Days as i find it interesting and the other teams have flaws from my POV (no hard feelings, i didn't even took the time to build for this one^^)
At first when i looked at bygone team i was thinking that scarf latias as ur water resist when u play moltres lead is hard to play since empoleon one hit ko but thinking again since u have no spin support u just attack and put him to sash, if it kills u then no SR for him and u're good to go and u beneficiate of some nice mu with will o, and u're pretty good into machamp since they rarely plays stone edge. if i were playing the team i might have more spdef and lum on meta but that's player dependant, might also have sr on it and have gyara over azelf since u like the tendancies of anti leads to prevent SR
so i vote Bygone Days Days as i find it interesting and the other teams have flaws from my POV (no hard feelings, i didn't even took the time to build for this one^^)
Dridri457 said:no yeah i completely agree to be honest. toxic+wish sounds amazing with jirachi but in practice it doesnt work because toxic needs fire punch, wish needs protect and then you dont have iron head. dropping any either removes the point of the set or makes it significantly worse (this might be the worst jirachi set into magnezone that i have in my builder). lum moltres is heat tho, im proud of thati don't really think the teams from ilso or sevenor beats stall, outside of machamp and iron head shenanigans, i think fidgety's one is ok as it can gets some wins but moltres as a specs mon is too prediction reliant, tyranitar latias heatran are common switches and it's pretty hard to guess which one will come, such a choice specs mon wanna come often on the field and SR weakness makes it bad in this role here donphan helps a bit though i would indeed prefer assurance over knock off.
At first when i looked at bygone team i was thinking that scarf latias as ur water resist when u play moltres lead is hard to play since empoleon one hit ko but thinking again since u have no spin support u just attack and put him to sash, if it kills u then no SR for him and u're good to go and u beneficiate of some nice mu with will o, and u're pretty good into machamp since they rarely plays stone edge. if i were playing the team i might have more spdef and lum on meta but that's player dependant, might also have sr on it and have gyara over azelf since u like the tendancies of anti leads to prevent SR
so i vote Bygone Days Days as i find it interesting and the other teams have flaws from my POV (no hard feelings, i didn't even took the time to build for this one^^)
voting fidgety because my team sucks ass from testing on the basis my jirachi set sucks ass and is kind of unfixable while being the lynchpin of the team, i strongly dislike bygone ways method of getting rocks on the field, and ilso has other flaws
Dridri457 said:Definitely not the best team I've ever built, it struggles against some threats and it's definitely not my favorite matchup vs stall but I'll share two replays saved this morning in which it still wins:i don't really think the teams from ilso or sevenor beats stall
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen4ou-2150275170?p2
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen4ou-2150263935?p2
I have also other replays on different accounts where I win vs latias/cresselia.
I prefer a strategy rather than putting stuff together trying to cover all the weaknesses... we're talking about a gen without team preview and I also see other teams losing badly from Life Orb Scizor SD + 3 attacks, which is a problem much less "containable" imo
Anyway, I agree with you and well done everyone!
Ilsolitostronzo said:I think ur team can do well vs offense, for the stall mu or semi stall, it's just that most of ur team is weak to chip damage, vs a well played stall, ur only option to pressure clef is machamp, explosion and air slash flinch, since u have no pursuit champ will have trouble to get progress vs def rotom or def zap and'll get chipped, I think some possible solutions would be to have breloom over champ and possibly a sd breloom with façade superpower seed bomb who will enjoy para from rotom and celebi, and will not get chipped. the rotom set is interesting, never saw it I'd play it either more offensively with colbur berry if u're goal is to survive one pursuit to block spin later, or I'd go rest talk, which gives u a nice sleep absorber since u play lead pert, though u can continue this if it gives u nice results . now I can imagine ur team surviving better to stall, opponent skarm or zap getting para u threaten with moltres u do decent damage to clef who has to heal u have ur breloom on clef u can threaten sd or superpower and do progress, while still having nice weapons vs offense.Definitely not the best team I've ever built, it struggles against some threats and it's definitely not my favorite matchup vs stall but I'll share two replays saved this morning in which it still wins:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen4ou-2150275170?p2
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen4ou-2150263935?p2
I have also other replays on different accounts where I win vs latias/cresselia.
I prefer a strategy rather than putting stuff together trying to cover all the weaknesses... we're talking about a gen without team preview and I also see other teams losing badly from Life Orb Scizor SD + 3 attacks, which is a problem much less "containable" imo
Anyway, I agree with you and well done everyone!
hmm to be honest I'm not really a fan of any of the teams (including mine).
I think Fidgetys team is the most well rounded and not that much of a matchup fish but I strongly disagree with specs moltres being a good set. imo it relies heavily on prediction and is very abusable in bad matchups while not offering any flexibility should you get a good one. And being forced to switch out Specs Moltres T2 is disaster class even with a spinner in the back.
Sevenors team is quite creative, which I really appreciate, but it has almost zero chances of winning against stall and struggles hard against any form of spinblock because it is missing both pursuit and a way for donphan to touch ghost types. That coupled with moltres/celebi/weavile and their distaste for hazards makes it not very appealing in my eyes.
The one I personally like the most is ilsolitostronzos, which arguably struggles a bit against stall as well but I feel like it has a lot of creative and unexpected tools to still make progress. I would swap Air Slash for Will O Wisp/Toxic/Roost on Moltres as I don't really see a relevant threat that isn't more annoyed by toxic or will o but I have to admit that I didn't test it that much so maybe I'm missing something here.
I really like the celebi set tho, feels fantastic to be able to LO Leaf Storm something while not being bothered by sand/recoil/hazards etc. that much because of rest. Really nice tech to pp stall clef as well should it come to that.
So my vote goes to Ilsolitostronzo.
I think Fidgetys team is the most well rounded and not that much of a matchup fish but I strongly disagree with specs moltres being a good set. imo it relies heavily on prediction and is very abusable in bad matchups while not offering any flexibility should you get a good one. And being forced to switch out Specs Moltres T2 is disaster class even with a spinner in the back.
Sevenors team is quite creative, which I really appreciate, but it has almost zero chances of winning against stall and struggles hard against any form of spinblock because it is missing both pursuit and a way for donphan to touch ghost types. That coupled with moltres/celebi/weavile and their distaste for hazards makes it not very appealing in my eyes.
The one I personally like the most is ilsolitostronzos, which arguably struggles a bit against stall as well but I feel like it has a lot of creative and unexpected tools to still make progress. I would swap Air Slash for Will O Wisp/Toxic/Roost on Moltres as I don't really see a relevant threat that isn't more annoyed by toxic or will o but I have to admit that I didn't test it that much so maybe I'm missing something here.
I really like the celebi set tho, feels fantastic to be able to LO Leaf Storm something while not being bothered by sand/recoil/hazards etc. that much because of rest. Really nice tech to pp stall clef as well should it come to that.
So my vote goes to Ilsolitostronzo.
Congratulation to Bygone Days for winning this week!
The team : https://pokepast.es/efc1d5716032f98d
Now, you'ill build around Porygon-2!
One of my favourite pokemon, the combot of trace + good bulk makes it pretty unique, in addition to its decent movepoll it can enable some cool strategies. Also, let's not forget that it has 105 special attacks. Gl!
Ilsolitostronzo :D
Edit: Thread is on break again for 1 or 2 weeks, sorry.
The team : https://pokepast.es/efc1d5716032f98d
Now, you'ill build around Porygon-2!
One of my favourite pokemon, the combot of trace + good bulk makes it pretty unique, in addition to its decent movepoll it can enable some cool strategies. Also, let's not forget that it has 105 special attacks. Gl!
Ilsolitostronzo :D
Edit: Thread is on break again for 1 or 2 weeks, sorry.
Last edited:
Building Phase
And now in detail:
Infernape (M) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 60 Atk/196 Spd/252 SAtk
Naive nature (+Spd, -SDef)
- Close Combat
- Fake Out
- Overheat
- Stealth Rock
He shreds almost all common leads and almost always places SRs.
Latias (F) @ Life Orb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 4 HP/252 Spd/252 SAtk
Timid nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Recover
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Draco Meteor
- Thunderbolt
I gave this set to the less durable, but also more unexpected and paradoxically more useful Latias. It counters many more Pokémon, although I was thinking about possibly a set with the Choice Scarf (which would provide a Trick, as well as give me an extra counter against DDDra and DDDos which are outspeeded even after the dance). HP Fire on Surf to have greater coverage against some threats that are dangerous for the team (see list at the bottom of the post).
Magnezone @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Magnet Pull
EVs: 4 HP/252 Spd/252 SAtk
Naive nature (+Spd, -SDef)
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Flash Cannon
- Explosion
Very useful: he traps and counters practically all steel, even himself. The Scarf is essential for Lucario, Scizor and possibly Jirachi (the Scarfchi locked in Trick is fantastic). Statistically inferior to Metagross, there is no doubt about it, but his ability makes him a better choice in this case. Thanks to its immense Special Attack and its 2 STAB attacks it is also an excellent revengekiller.
Swampert (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 252 HP/4 Atk/252 Def
Impish nature (+Def, -SAtk)
- Earthquake
- Avalanche
- Waterfall
- Roar
Swampert not only strengthens defensive coverage, but is also able to counter a myriad of opponents. I preferred the physical set for greater offensive power and also because, in my threat list, Ice Beam was just right for Skarmory (which however outspeeds MixPert which is Relaxed), while Avalance provides me with a counter for Latias (without Grass Knot), of which I would otherwise not have.
Porygon2 @ Leftovers
Ability: Trace
EVs: 252 HP/216 Def/40 SAtk
Bold nature (+Def, -Atk)
- Discharge
- Ice Beam
- Recover
- Toxic
It counters Gyarados, Heatran,Salamence, Jolteon, Electivire with ridiculous ease.
Discharge > Thunderbolt despite the status conflict, because it's more useful for stuff like Heatran.
Scizor (M) @ Choice Band
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 HP/252 Atk/4 Spd
Adamant nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Superpower
- Bullet Punch
- U-turn
- Pursuit
CBZor preferred over classic Bulky SDzor due to loss of Metagross. Basically I needed Pursuit and U-Turn, as well as an immediately more powerful Bullet Punch to revenge kill or counter some more fragile threats. However, sometimes the Choice Band limitation is frustrating, both due to the risk of being locked out and the reduction in offensive potential compared to the Swords Dance set. For this reason I sometimes replace it with Lucario, which can still count on Crunch and is placed (in terms of usefulness) in an intermediate step between SDzor and CBzor.
Lucario (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Inner Focus
EVs: 4 HP/252 Atk/252 Spd
Jolly nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
- Extremespeed
- Close Combat
- Swords Dance
- Crunch
Revengekiller and lategame sweeper. He replaces Scizor, who is generally preferred because he is much bulkier (and above all capable of "countering").
Threat list
ETT
https://pokepast.es/0c7e6a47b59044ba
I started from the Porygon2 + Scizor core.
Porygon2 is NU but single-handedly counters some of Scizor's biggest threats, such as Heatran and Gyarados, effortlessly. It can also trap Magnezone to try to paralyze it while supporting Scizor.
Scizor is a powerful and merciless machine of destruction and in turn helps Porygon2 against threats such as Clefable, Gengar, Metagross, Bronzong and Breloom.
Latias takes care of filling some weaknesses (mainly Infernape).
I initially thought of Metagross which was replaced by Magnezone. The usefulness of the magnet is indisputable: steel practically constitute half of the metagame. With Choice Scarf it not only traps and locks but gives me an excellent revengekiller (I gave up Magnet Rise, which is useless anyway if I'm faced with stuff like Scarfchi).
Swampert takes care of strengthening the coverage.
Finally, one of my favorite leads, capable of stopping common leads and setting SRs at the same time.
Scizor can be replaced by SD Lucario, which has greater offensive power although significantly lower resistance.
And now in detail:
Infernape (M) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 60 Atk/196 Spd/252 SAtk
Naive nature (+Spd, -SDef)
- Close Combat
- Fake Out
- Overheat
- Stealth Rock
He shreds almost all common leads and almost always places SRs.
Latias (F) @ Life Orb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 4 HP/252 Spd/252 SAtk
Timid nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Recover
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Draco Meteor
- Thunderbolt
I gave this set to the less durable, but also more unexpected and paradoxically more useful Latias. It counters many more Pokémon, although I was thinking about possibly a set with the Choice Scarf (which would provide a Trick, as well as give me an extra counter against DDDra and DDDos which are outspeeded even after the dance). HP Fire on Surf to have greater coverage against some threats that are dangerous for the team (see list at the bottom of the post).
Magnezone @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Magnet Pull
EVs: 4 HP/252 Spd/252 SAtk
Naive nature (+Spd, -SDef)
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Flash Cannon
- Explosion
Very useful: he traps and counters practically all steel, even himself. The Scarf is essential for Lucario, Scizor and possibly Jirachi (the Scarfchi locked in Trick is fantastic). Statistically inferior to Metagross, there is no doubt about it, but his ability makes him a better choice in this case. Thanks to its immense Special Attack and its 2 STAB attacks it is also an excellent revengekiller.
Swampert (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 252 HP/4 Atk/252 Def
Impish nature (+Def, -SAtk)
- Earthquake
- Avalanche
- Waterfall
- Roar
Swampert not only strengthens defensive coverage, but is also able to counter a myriad of opponents. I preferred the physical set for greater offensive power and also because, in my threat list, Ice Beam was just right for Skarmory (which however outspeeds MixPert which is Relaxed), while Avalance provides me with a counter for Latias (without Grass Knot), of which I would otherwise not have.
Porygon2 @ Leftovers
Ability: Trace
EVs: 252 HP/216 Def/40 SAtk
Bold nature (+Def, -Atk)
- Discharge
- Ice Beam
- Recover
- Toxic
It counters Gyarados, Heatran,
Discharge > Thunderbolt despite the status conflict, because it's more useful for stuff like Heatran.
Scizor (M) @ Choice Band
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 HP/252 Atk/4 Spd
Adamant nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Superpower
- Bullet Punch
- U-turn
- Pursuit
CBZor preferred over classic Bulky SDzor due to loss of Metagross. Basically I needed Pursuit and U-Turn, as well as an immediately more powerful Bullet Punch to revenge kill or counter some more fragile threats. However, sometimes the Choice Band limitation is frustrating, both due to the risk of being locked out and the reduction in offensive potential compared to the Swords Dance set. For this reason I sometimes replace it with Lucario, which can still count on Crunch and is placed (in terms of usefulness) in an intermediate step between SDzor and CBzor.
The Replacement
Lucario (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Inner Focus
EVs: 4 HP/252 Atk/252 Spd
Jolly nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
- Extremespeed
- Close Combat
- Swords Dance
- Crunch
Revengekiller and lategame sweeper. He replaces Scizor, who is generally preferred because he is much bulkier (and above all capable of "countering").
Threat list
I only mention the counters, given the obviousness of revengekillers.
Aerodactyl: Swampert, Latias, Scizor
Alakazam: Scizor, Latias, Magnezone
Azelf: Scizor, Latias
Blissey: Lucario, Infernape, Scizor
Breloom: Latias after putting a Pokémon to sleep. However, he can't get into practically anyone, so I don't need to counter him.
Bronzong: Magnezone, Swampert, Infernape, Scizor, Latias
Celebi: Scizor, Latias, Infernape (if it doesn't have Psychic), Magnezone
Cresselia: Scizor, Swampert, Magnezone, Latias
Dragonite: Swampert
Dusknoir: Scizor (hard)
Electivire: Swampert, Porygon2 enters Thunderbolt/ThunderPunch and poisons
Empoleon: Latias, Lucario, Magnezone, Swampert, Porygon2
Flygon: Swampert, Porygon2, and Latias can switch into Earthquake
Forretress: Infernape, Magnezone, Lucario, Latias
Gengar: Scizor, Magnezone
Gliscor: Swampert, Latias
Gyarados: Porygon2, Latias
Heatran: Swampert, Latias, Porygon2
Heracross: Scizor
Hippowdon: Swampert
Infernape: Swampert (if he doesn't have Grass Knot), Latias
Jirachi: Magnezone, Swampert
Jolteon: Swampert (if it has no HP Grass), Porygon2 (which also stops the batonpass if it manages to place Toxic before the sub)
Kingdra: Swampert (arduous). It's not easy to counter Kingdra without Suicune or Empoleon on the team.
Latias: Scizor with Pursuit (if Latias has no HP Fire) or Bullet Punch (if weakened), Swampert
Lucario: Magnezone
Machamp: Latias
Magnezone: Magnezone, Latias (unlikely to have HP Ice), Swampert, Porygon2 (hard)
Mamoswine: Scizor, Swampert
Metagross: Swampert, Magnezone
Porygon-Z: Lucario, Scizor, Magnezone outspeeds the plotter and resists scarf, especially if it comes in on electric.
Rhyperior: Swampert, Scizor
Rotom-A: Magnezone, Swampert
Scizor: Magnezone, Scizor, Infernape
Skarmory: Magnezone, Lucario
Smeargle: Lucario, Scizor
Snorlax: Lucario or Scizor after Latias checks
Starmie: Scizor, Latias
Suicune: Latias, Porygon2
Swampert: Latias (mixed only), Scizor
Tentacruel: Swampert, Latias, Magnezone
Togekiss: Scizor, Lucario, Latias
Tyranitar: Scizor, Swampert, Magnezone
Umbreon: Lucario, Scizor
Vaporeon: Magnezone, Latias, Porygon2
Weavile: Scizor, Swampert, Magnezone
Zapdos: Swampert, Latias (both with difficulty depending on HP type)
ETT
https://pokepast.es/0c7e6a47b59044ba
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forregon 9 (pokepast.es)
:zapdos: :forretress: :porygon2: :tyranitar: :empoleon: :gliscor:
you may note that this is called forregon 9. forregon is a nice play on pory2+forre, and 9 is in reference to the fact that this is the 9th iteration of the team (technically 11th as i was experimenting with 'skarmadon", and made the switch from superpower to eq on tar to deal with suparachi better). i went through such banger ideas as shell bell 25 hp ivs infernape, resttalk guts machamp, spikes/rapid spin/counter/protect forre and scarf gliscor. this was the variant i was by far the most happy with, and i dont think im personally capable of taking the team any further, though others might be able to.
its basically tss dpp edition, team somewhat talks for itself once you know the mon choices, so ill get into those in order of when i picked them;
pory 2: beats heatran, gyarados, magnets, flygon and natcurers while being capable of just being a decent mon that has recover (eg, it can absolutely work as a swampert answer if the zapdos is down). switch this thing into gyara immedietely, every time. same philosophy for heatran (obv try to shake it up, team is fortunately robust enough that you can, but the default should def be pory for its ability to recover). because we have a fairly defensive empoleon and a forretress, the team appreciates being able to trap the magnets. wish i could slot twave for extra gar checking, but your odds between discharge paraing, focus blast missing when it needs to hit multiple times and just recover spamming if it comes down to it arent awful
forre: both of porys stabs hit ground immune pokemon. this makes spikes stacking pretty nifty. spin support also means that switching around and trying to break pory that way, by never giving it a free turn is a lot more annoying. thanks to counter, this forre set can 1v1 any physical pokemon that cant boost its attack without attacking (and even then, you have gyro ball for the cases of ttar and dnite). especially metagross, banders and pert (and also skarmory, who you counter for unrelated reasons). opting to not run assurance thanks to pursuit support from ttar. protect and boom would be lovely, but we cant fit it. biggest problem mons for forre are gyarados, scizor, and lucario setting up on it and not letting you click counter (and obviously special threats, but you shouldnt be taking those with forre) which i hope the rest of the team can beat. very much appreciates the magnezone, heatran and gyara countering from pory.
ttar: was band for the longest time while this team was struggling to find its 6th before being freed to not be the only physical attacker (gliscor was previously gengar/nape who had pacing diff issues). ttar is mandatory. sand is nice for 2/3rds of the team, rock slide hits flying types that hover over spikes, and most importantly, ttar has pursuit. this gives forre free spinning. it also allows you to deal with latias, who between emp and ttar and auxiliary help from pory this team should cover nicely. chosen to be the speed control of the team, try to get into endgames where this guy can win by spamming shit. try not to overload, ttar is marginally the best mon on the team but cant be the electric resist, the latias switchin and the heatran mixup all at once, especially if forre hasnt gotten opportunities. eq on scarf over superpower is for suparachi, gross and emergency nape checl, obviously can be dodgy in endgame cleanups when theres a flying but like... 2nd superpower isnt great into flyers either and half the team is a designated flying type check. the more pressing issue is clef, but gliscor is like... the second best mon into clef after breloom, so maybe were fine? crunch does 52% so it can still beat non twave variants that gliscor may struggle with
zapdos: i figured an electric and a ghost, and didnt want to doubledip with rotom so i went with zapdos and gar (i later cut gar, because realistically this team doesnt need spinblocking that much on account of forre is not a one time spiker). this teams main method of dealing with water types, fighting types, setup steel types, ground types and also breloom check #1. designated lead because it doesnt take spikes damage and is also solid into most common leads (or you can switch out to a mon thats great into them). appreciates forre spinning, can be the gyara check if the heatran boomed the pory
empoleon: teams rocker and designated steel type. i dislike overloading forre with the burden of being the only steel type to punish dnites outrages, to set up stealth rock, its not a good idea and wont do half of what you want it to do. in comes bulky emp. was originally metagross, but i wanted a water resist. grass knot is incredibly tempting, but roar is probably the better move on account of dealing with fuckass substitute users, dealing with suicune after numerous calm minds and grass knot does like 25, we can double switch to zapdos so we have an option against water types and we have spikes on this team. M.A.D relationship with ground types. this is your jirachi check (iron head does like 1.3% after leftovers), but *PLEASE* make sure their team comp doesnt call for suparachi, esp if you need the emp for other things
gliscor: the culmination of a lot of teambuilding desires (electric resist/immune, second breloom/fighting answer, physical offence for special walls, steel breaker, reliable tar answer (mixedtar/ddtar that could beat forre and emp was beating this teams ass for a bit), stallbreaker). this is a wincon, but dont be afraid to switch it out like 5 times after an SD if you need to. does it suck ass into levitaters not named flygon? yeah. but like, you have roost, you dont take spikes damage, youre sand immune you have lefties... honestly, dont even view this as an sd gliscor, but rather a gliscor that can click sd. dont hide it in the back the whole game waiting for the sweep opportunity, let it come out and be a part of your strong defensive core. also has perfect defensive synergy with empoleon, so thats nice
probably my fav team ive built for the comp so far. def the one i spent the longest on
edit: you can get 2 additional attack on the gliscor by using a jolly nature and going to 280 with a different spread of evs. do that
:zapdos: :forretress: :porygon2: :tyranitar: :empoleon: :gliscor:
you may note that this is called forregon 9. forregon is a nice play on pory2+forre, and 9 is in reference to the fact that this is the 9th iteration of the team (technically 11th as i was experimenting with 'skarmadon", and made the switch from superpower to eq on tar to deal with suparachi better). i went through such banger ideas as shell bell 25 hp ivs infernape, resttalk guts machamp, spikes/rapid spin/counter/protect forre and scarf gliscor. this was the variant i was by far the most happy with, and i dont think im personally capable of taking the team any further, though others might be able to.
its basically tss dpp edition, team somewhat talks for itself once you know the mon choices, so ill get into those in order of when i picked them;
pory 2: beats heatran, gyarados, magnets, flygon and natcurers while being capable of just being a decent mon that has recover (eg, it can absolutely work as a swampert answer if the zapdos is down). switch this thing into gyara immedietely, every time. same philosophy for heatran (obv try to shake it up, team is fortunately robust enough that you can, but the default should def be pory for its ability to recover). because we have a fairly defensive empoleon and a forretress, the team appreciates being able to trap the magnets. wish i could slot twave for extra gar checking, but your odds between discharge paraing, focus blast missing when it needs to hit multiple times and just recover spamming if it comes down to it arent awful
forre: both of porys stabs hit ground immune pokemon. this makes spikes stacking pretty nifty. spin support also means that switching around and trying to break pory that way, by never giving it a free turn is a lot more annoying. thanks to counter, this forre set can 1v1 any physical pokemon that cant boost its attack without attacking (and even then, you have gyro ball for the cases of ttar and dnite). especially metagross, banders and pert (and also skarmory, who you counter for unrelated reasons). opting to not run assurance thanks to pursuit support from ttar. protect and boom would be lovely, but we cant fit it. biggest problem mons for forre are gyarados, scizor, and lucario setting up on it and not letting you click counter (and obviously special threats, but you shouldnt be taking those with forre) which i hope the rest of the team can beat. very much appreciates the magnezone, heatran and gyara countering from pory.
ttar: was band for the longest time while this team was struggling to find its 6th before being freed to not be the only physical attacker (gliscor was previously gengar/nape who had pacing diff issues). ttar is mandatory. sand is nice for 2/3rds of the team, rock slide hits flying types that hover over spikes, and most importantly, ttar has pursuit. this gives forre free spinning. it also allows you to deal with latias, who between emp and ttar and auxiliary help from pory this team should cover nicely. chosen to be the speed control of the team, try to get into endgames where this guy can win by spamming shit. try not to overload, ttar is marginally the best mon on the team but cant be the electric resist, the latias switchin and the heatran mixup all at once, especially if forre hasnt gotten opportunities. eq on scarf over superpower is for suparachi, gross and emergency nape checl, obviously can be dodgy in endgame cleanups when theres a flying but like... 2nd superpower isnt great into flyers either and half the team is a designated flying type check. the more pressing issue is clef, but gliscor is like... the second best mon into clef after breloom, so maybe were fine? crunch does 52% so it can still beat non twave variants that gliscor may struggle with
zapdos: i figured an electric and a ghost, and didnt want to doubledip with rotom so i went with zapdos and gar (i later cut gar, because realistically this team doesnt need spinblocking that much on account of forre is not a one time spiker). this teams main method of dealing with water types, fighting types, setup steel types, ground types and also breloom check #1. designated lead because it doesnt take spikes damage and is also solid into most common leads (or you can switch out to a mon thats great into them). appreciates forre spinning, can be the gyara check if the heatran boomed the pory
empoleon: teams rocker and designated steel type. i dislike overloading forre with the burden of being the only steel type to punish dnites outrages, to set up stealth rock, its not a good idea and wont do half of what you want it to do. in comes bulky emp. was originally metagross, but i wanted a water resist. grass knot is incredibly tempting, but roar is probably the better move on account of dealing with fuckass substitute users, dealing with suicune after numerous calm minds and grass knot does like 25, we can double switch to zapdos so we have an option against water types and we have spikes on this team. M.A.D relationship with ground types. this is your jirachi check (iron head does like 1.3% after leftovers), but *PLEASE* make sure their team comp doesnt call for suparachi, esp if you need the emp for other things
gliscor: the culmination of a lot of teambuilding desires (electric resist/immune, second breloom/fighting answer, physical offence for special walls, steel breaker, reliable tar answer (mixedtar/ddtar that could beat forre and emp was beating this teams ass for a bit), stallbreaker). this is a wincon, but dont be afraid to switch it out like 5 times after an SD if you need to. does it suck ass into levitaters not named flygon? yeah. but like, you have roost, you dont take spikes damage, youre sand immune you have lefties... honestly, dont even view this as an sd gliscor, but rather a gliscor that can click sd. dont hide it in the back the whole game waiting for the sweep opportunity, let it come out and be a part of your strong defensive core. also has perfect defensive synergy with empoleon, so thats nice
probably my fav team ive built for the comp so far. def the one i spent the longest on
edit: you can get 2 additional attack on the gliscor by using a jolly nature and going to 280 with a different spread of evs. do that
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This is my approach to a Porygon-2 (P2) team:
The idea is to play standard paraspam stuff, but with scizor as the bulky steel instead. I under appreciated para + strong u-turn until I started using this team, so that is part of the reason I am posting it.
P2 also helps spread para itself, and possesses a few nice traits that set it apart from clefable. It is the perfect partner to scizor, as it walls heatrans fire blasts, and can para it back and even take some of the weaker explosions. Scizor also has trouble with gyarados, which P2 also helps with. P2 should also look for other opportunities to use its ability trace, like switching into a defensive starmies twave to trace natural cure, scarf gons earthquake tracing levitate, or one of the magnets to trace magnetic pull. (Bonus)One of the teams flaws is that it has very little way of breaking through defensive rotom. You have to catch it at the right time with a stray hit, a boosted waterfall after it's weakened, or hax through it. I somehow did all of those at different times in testing, but I expect my luck will run out eventually.
The idea is to play standard paraspam stuff, but with scizor as the bulky steel instead. I under appreciated para + strong u-turn until I started using this team, so that is part of the reason I am posting it.
P2 also helps spread para itself, and possesses a few nice traits that set it apart from clefable. It is the perfect partner to scizor, as it walls heatrans fire blasts, and can para it back and even take some of the weaker explosions. Scizor also has trouble with gyarados, which P2 also helps with. P2 should also look for other opportunities to use its ability trace, like switching into a defensive starmies twave to trace natural cure, scarf gons earthquake tracing levitate, or one of the magnets to trace magnetic pull. (Bonus)One of the teams flaws is that it has very little way of breaking through defensive rotom. You have to catch it at the right time with a stray hit, a boosted waterfall after it's weakened, or hax through it. I somehow did all of those at different times in testing, but I expect my luck will run out eventually.
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