DPPt In-Game Tier List Thread v2

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I wrote this in the previous thread (too lazy to find and redirect), but why in the good name of Satoshi Tajiri you people insist on putting Yanma on anything higher than E? I legit question if you have ever used it. Saying from experience (and openning to the possibility that I used it wrongly), the incredibly pathetic dragonfly should not be anywhere above E (hell, even F if people really think Swinub is bad). I'll use the criteria established by the OP to argue my point below:

1) Availability: Yanma is a Great Marsh mon, and that itself is bad news. Worse, it's a conditional Great Marsh mon with a flee rate of 47.1% according to Bulbapedia. While Great Marsh is somewhat mid-game (I tried to get it before Maylene), the safari-esque nature of it is extremely unappealing.

2) Typing: Bug/Flying is bad defensively. Very bad. The tons of Zubat line used by Team Galactic and weird abundance of Steel and Flying types accross the region is a chore to deal with. Offensively-wise, the STABs are not that bad, but you won't have it until VEEEEERY late unless you undergo various tedious and/or unorthodox steps that I'll explain below.

3) Stats: Trash dragonfly base form is a glass cannon that shoots a tiny amount of water. 65/45/45 at the time you get Yanma is not that good, and 65 Atk is not really enough. 75 SpA is bad, for reasons I'll go over below. What could be the saving grace of the bigger trash dragonfly, that sweet sweet 116 SpA with a not-shabby 95 Spe (which can be boosted if you opt/find one with Speed Boost), not all muscle can make a hit with a cotton ball hurt. If you want the full experience of using Yanmega, you'll have to trust that average 76 Atk, which is surprisingly enough lower than anything in its rank and above, and the tier below! 86 Def with 86 HP is nice though, I give you that. You may think yourself: "Why, I will only use Special moves, you idiot!" Well...

4) Movepool: When taking consideration how Platinum works in terms of level curve and the finishing points of the game, Yamna has to have one of the worst level up movepool and curve in the game. I will just post the screenshot of what and when it learns by level (again, thanks to Bulbapedia)



The major difference between Yamna and Yanmega is when the latter learns Feint and Slash, the former gets Hypnosis and Wing Attack (arguably better moves).

Now, I'll be a reasonable person and expect that, by the time you reach Volkner (whose team ranges from 46-50), you'll be at least at level 45, as it was my case. In that scenario, I beg my reader to please explain, by using only level-up moves, how the hell you managed to level up that much with that atrocity without switch-training of infinite rare candies? Seriously, you get it (after the hassle at Great Marsh) at level 27-30, so Yamna by start will have Detect, Supersonic, Uproar and either Sonic Boom or Pursuit. And spamming Uproar in midgame Platinum is not the best nor brightest idea. As you reach level 33, you ditch Detect for Ancient Power and evolve your trash dragonfly. You then rush to test it out your new 60 BP, 5 PP unstabbed move, you realize how 116 SpA means squat if you have no way of using it. And then cry realizing you'll only have an usable special move at level 54 (thanks FEINT!)... unless you use that moderately adequate 76 Atk and your heart scales for Bug Bite and Night Slash. OR, if you decide to evolve it at level 43, it can have Wing Attack instead!

Now, of course it's highly unlikely that you're not gonna waste at least one TM in Yanmega, which already reminds you with the "Dumping non-renewable resources on one Pokémon is considered highly inefficient for the purposes of this list". So, what our garbage bug can learn? Long story short, the useful special moves are Hidden Power, Giga Drain, Hyper Beam, Psychic, Shadow Ball, Silver Wind and Dream Eater. Hidden Power is a gamble and relying on it says a lot about the Pokémon. Having to resort to Hyper Beam really makes me question why are you using it other than anything else. Shadow Ball is one-time only before Frontier, but if you have nothing else to use on the way to Celestic, Yanmega can use it (I saved it for my Glaceon so I have no experience with). Psychic is either too late or requires too much time/money in the Game Corner, and Dream Eater is unusable unless you evolve at level 38, in which case good luck with that consistent 60% move. Giga Drain is usefull, I guess, but I didn't use it on Yanmega (saved for other) and I suspect it has the same problems as Ancient Power. The only option left is Silver Wind, which you get relatively at the same time that you catch a Yamna at Route 212, and the route I went with. You NEED that move to even scratch enemies, and although the boost is nice (when it happens), Silver Wind + Ancient Power (if you don't use any other move) is only 10 PP, so you are good to go for 10 battles on the best case scenario. You cannot compare Yanmega with the 30 PP and 80 BP Bronzor/zong, which albeit slower will probably win on tankiness, and even a lot of D such as Marill and Tangrowth (one that should be at C but I'll go over in another time). You can go physical with Aerial Ace and lol Steel Wing, however.

So that leaves us with Move Tutors, right? Again, courtesy of Bulbapedia:



The tutors that I cut in the image are the postgame ones, so no Signal Beam for you. If you can afford Shadow Ball, you are not using Ominous Wind. Even if you're using Shadow Ball on something else, you're not using Ominous Wind for the sheer fact that not only is another weak move with almost no PP, but the cost is too much. Unfortunately, that cost is the same reason why Air Cutter is a questionable option. Not relying on chance, you'll not have without backtracking A LOT in the game all shards required for the 55 BP move. You could soft-reset and clock manipulate at Pastoria to get all shards every day, or be lucky at Underground, but by that point you realize that raising a Yamna is quite a lot of, paraphrasing the OP, "[...] a hassle".

5) Major battles: You'll probably beat Maylene's Meditite by spamming Uproar. I did... If you go outside your way to teach Air Cutter, you might even beat Machoke! If you teach it Giga Drain then Wake's Quagsire can be manageable. Other than that, Aaron and Lucian can be a cakewalk... if you reach level 57! Don't bother with anything else unless you picked Empoleon, then Torterra is manageable with Silver Wind.

Concluding, I am yet to see anyone who used Yanmega and had a different experience from my miserable one. Trash dragonfly may be BL in the generation it was introduced, but in-game it deserves all the stinkiness that its pre-evo got since GSC. Yanma and Yanmega are horrible Pokémon and keeping them anywhere above E or even F are an insult to people that experiment with Pokémon.

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I had to make it level 57 because I was really annoyed at the lack of Bug Buzz. It was a prideful thing to do. Also I named it Episode I because "Star Wars - The Phantom Menace is the most disappointing thing since my son" (PLINKETT, Harry S.), the exact reaction I had using Yanmega. Everything else on the team except Empoleon (A), should range between B and C. And I agree with everyone that posted here that Glaceon is good, way better than where it's shoved at, and certainly MUCH, MUCH better than Yanmega.
Having used Yanma before, I agree it's a thoroughly miserable experience. You really don't get anything until Air Slash and Bug Buzz.

Matter of fact, Air Cutter is almost mandatory for any kind of route clearing. And as we know, Shards aren't quite quick to come by. The payoff is not exactly remarkable, though Lucian doesn't want any of that smoke.

E sounds like a good place for it, F if it's hard to catch, been a while.
 

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I used/am using it in my current post-E4 casual run. It's not /awful/ even without air cutter but I did have to go out of my way to maximize it's effectiveness, between babying it until evolution and picking matchups carefully to put it in a position to succeed. It's a very high investment Mon and at the end of it it's power just isn't much to speak about.
 
I wrote this in the previous thread (too lazy to find and redirect), but why in the good name of Satoshi Tajiri you people insist on putting Yanma on anything higher than E? I legit question if you have ever used it. Saying from experience (and openning to the possibility that I used it wrongly), the incredibly pathetic dragonfly should not be anywhere above E (hell, even F if people really think Swinub is bad).
Why is Swinub so low? You can have a Mamoswine literally two levels after catching Swinub and it gets natural Earthquake at level 40. Stats are outstanding. It has great matchups with the late game bosses due to an incredibly synergistic offensive typing. The only notable downsides I can think of are late availability and Slow EXP. I haven't used it so won't advocate as heavily for it but I can't see why it shouldn't jump up at least one tier.

I will however advocate for Meditite as B tier. Medicham has Uber level Attack due to Pure Power. It gets Hi Jump Kick relatively early at level 32, it's a great candidate for the Brick Break TM, you can teach it Zen Headbutt from the move tutor west of Pastoria, and round off its set with whatever elemental punch you want. It wins the Cynthia Lucario matchup due to Cynthia's Lucario being Careful nature and not OHKO'ing you at level 50 with Shadow Ball, and you OHKO'ing back with Brick Break. Gallade, for example, does not win this matchup due to being unable to OHKO with Brick Break.

Speaking of which, I'm not sure Medicham isn't just outright better than Gallade who is sitting at B tier. Medicham hits a fair amount harder, not even accounting for Hi Jump Kick, while Gallade probably won't get Close Combat till post game. Medicham also isn't plagued by Slow EXP and the awful Ralts and Kirlia stages. The only thing Gallade has on it is Special bulk. I can't see why Medicham shouldn't be B tier if Gallade is, and even otherwise in a vacuum.
 

Don Honchkrorleone

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Why is Swinub so low? You can have a Mamoswine literally two levels after catching Swinub and it gets natural Earthquake at level 40. Stats are outstanding. It has great matchups with the late game bosses due to an incredibly synergistic offensive typing. The only notable downsides I can think of are late availability and Slow EXP. I haven't used it so won't advocate as heavily for it but I can't see why it shouldn't jump up at least one tier.
100% agree. Aside from the bad points mentioned one that annoyed me (but not that much) is that if you want a stronger Ice-type move you'll have to go to Pastoria to relearn Ice Fang once Swinub evolves, but unless you found no Heart Scale or have none anymore without resorting to the Underground then it's not that much of a problem.
 
Why is Swinub so low? You can have a Mamoswine literally two levels after catching Swinub and it gets natural Earthquake at level 40. Stats are outstanding. It has great matchups with the late game bosses due to an incredibly synergistic offensive typing. The only notable downsides I can think of are late availability and Slow EXP. I haven't used it so won't advocate as heavily for it but I can't see why it shouldn't jump up at least one tier.

I will however advocate for Meditite as B tier. Medicham has Uber level Attack due to Pure Power. It gets Hi Jump Kick relatively early at level 32, it's a great candidate for the Brick Break TM, you can teach it Zen Headbutt from the move tutor west of Pastoria, and round off its set with whatever elemental punch you want. It wins the Cynthia Lucario matchup due to Cynthia's Lucario being Careful nature and not OHKO'ing you at level 50 with Shadow Ball, and you OHKO'ing back with Brick Break. Gallade, for example, does not win this matchup due to being unable to OHKO with Brick Break.

Speaking of which, I'm not sure Medicham isn't just outright better than Gallade who is sitting at B tier. Medicham hits a fair amount harder, not even accounting for Hi Jump Kick, while Gallade probably won't get Close Combat till post game. Medicham also isn't plagued by Slow EXP and the awful Ralts and Kirlia stages. The only thing Gallade has on it is Special bulk. I can't see why Medicham shouldn't be B tier if Gallade is, and even otherwise in a vacuum.
I’ve used Meditite (Eterna). ABSOULTELY do not use that Meditite. Just get the Celestic one. I wanted to see how bad Eterna Medi was. It did nothing. So that should probably be mentioned. As for it vs Gallade, I agree it should be in either B with Gallade or the two reversed. In order to even have Gallade usable, you need get a Dawn Stone which requires Surf. I’m sure it was described here, but the literal amount of backtracking and making sure you don’t level Kirlia or fight trainers to help Gallade is exhausting. He would also need a fair bit of investment. In all, that alone should be bogging Gallade down even further from B. Meditite naturally doesn’t have this problem.
 
I’ve used Meditite (Eterna). ABSOULTELY do not use that Meditite. Just get the Celestic one. I wanted to see how bad Eterna Medi was. It did nothing. So that should probably be mentioned. As for it vs Gallade, I agree it should be in either B with Gallade or the two reversed. In order to even have Gallade usable, you need get a Dawn Stone which requires Surf. I’m sure it was described here, but the literal amount of backtracking and making sure you don’t level Kirlia or fight trainers to help Gallade is exhausting. He would also need a fair bit of investment. In all, that alone should be bogging Gallade down even further from B. Meditite naturally doesn’t have this problem.
To be fair you can get a Dawn Stone much earlier as a hidden item on Route 212. So before the fifth gym (or fourth if you skip Maylene).

That still doesn't make up for the fact that on paper, Gallade and Medicham are pretty much even. Gallade has more special bulk while Medicham has more attacking power. The rest is a wash. Couple that with the fact that Gallade is Slow EXP and you will probably have to deal with the Ralts and Kirlia stages for at least some time, then I don't see any argument for Gallade being a tier above Medicham. They should at the very least be even.
 
Like Zebes and MasterLemon did on the FRLG and GSC boards respectively, I'll upload an image of my Platinum in-game tier list. I won't post individual descriptions for each Pokemon here, but I'm willing to answer any queries about specific placements. I chose to use the tier format used by zerokid on his GameFAQs walkthrough for RBY, though I can make distinctions between D and E Pokemon if asked.

pkmnplat.png
 
Like Zebes and MasterLemon did on the FRLG and GSC boards respectively, I'll upload an image of my Platinum in-game tier list. I won't post individual descriptions for each Pokemon here, but I'm willing to answer any queries about specific placements. I chose to use the tier format used by zerokid on his GameFAQs walkthrough for RBY, though I can make distinctions between D and E Pokemon if asked.

I agree with your placement of Gastrodon in B tier and am shocked to see it ranked D in this thread's tier list. I've used Floatzel, Golduck and Gastrodon extensively as my Water types in Platinum. Floatzel definitely gives the best performance of the three, warranting an A tier. I also agree with Golduck's ranking in B tier. I do not agree with Gastrodon/Shellos's ranking at all. So I'll make one last case for this thread's tier list for Shellos as B tier.

Shellos has easy availability right after the first gym, coming with Water Pulse and sometimes even Mud Bomb, giving it solid STAB and coverage moves right out of the gate. This allows it to pull its weight for quite a while. Just as Shellos starts to tail off it gets a couple rain routes to augment its STAB and make life a bit easier till it evolves at a fairly reasonable level of 30. For comparison, I think the Shellos stage is overall better than the Psyduck stage for Golduck.

Once it's Gastrodon, it pulls its weight reasonably well. It's no Swampert, but Water/Ground has always been a solid typing and turns the Volkner matchup from disadvantageous for a pure Water like Golduck, into a terrific matchup instead. Water/Ground does have some negatives compared to pure Water (notably neutral damage from Water type attacks) but I would say it's overall a superior typing. Neither Golduck nor Gastrodon can win any critical matchups 1v1, but both perform reasonably well and pretty much evenly. On paper, they are also more or less even statistically aside from Golduck's considerably higher Speed and Gastrodon's slightly higher overall bulk. I ran a move set of Surf/Waterfall/Mud Bomb/Blizzard on Gastrodon and the exact same set on Golduck except for Psychic instead of Mud Bomb. Again, virtually dead even.

I'm open to hearing counter arguments for Gastrodon perhaps being C relative to Golduck's B tier. But at the moment, I can't see why Gastrodon shouldn't be B tier if Golduck is. It certainly should not be D tier in my opinion.
 
I agree with your placement of Gastrodon in B tier and am shocked to see it ranked D in this thread's tier list. I've used Floatzel, Golduck and Gastrodon extensively as my Water types in Platinum. Floatzel definitely gives the best performance of the three, warranting an A tier. I also agree with Golduck's ranking in B tier. I do not agree with Gastrodon/Shellos's ranking at all. So I'll make one last case for this thread's tier list for Shellos as B tier.

Shellos has easy availability right after the first gym, coming with Water Pulse and sometimes even Mud Bomb, giving it solid STAB and coverage moves right out of the gate. This allows it to pull its weight for quite a while. Just as Shellos starts to tail off it gets a couple rain routes to augment its STAB and make life a bit easier till it evolves at a fairly reasonable level of 30. For comparison, I think the Shellos stage is overall better than the Psyduck stage for Golduck.

Once it's Gastrodon, it pulls its weight reasonably well. It's no Swampert, but Water/Ground has always been a solid typing and turns the Volkner matchup from disadvantageous for a pure Water like Golduck, into a terrific matchup instead. Water/Ground does have some negatives compared to pure Water (notably neutral damage from Water type attacks) but I would say it's overall a superior typing. Neither Golduck nor Gastrodon can win any critical matchups 1v1, but both perform reasonably well and pretty much evenly. On paper, they are also more or less even statistically aside from Golduck's considerably higher Speed and Gastrodon's slightly higher overall bulk. I ran a move set of Surf/Waterfall/Mud Bomb/Blizzard on Gastrodon and the exact same set on Golduck except for Psychic instead of Mud Bomb. Again, virtually dead even.

I'm open to hearing counter arguments for Gastrodon perhaps being C relative to Golduck's B tier. But at the moment, I can't see why Gastrodon shouldn't be B tier if Golduck is. It certainly should not be D tier in my opinion.
Believe it or not, I'm basing Golduck and Gastrodon's placement on catching them in their evolved forms once you get Surf. With a Repel, you should be able to grab them at level 40, which should be around the same level as the rest of the team. That way, they can take on everything else from here with minimal set-up. The late arrival time for this strat is why they aren't any higher.
 
I agree with your placement of Gastrodon in B tier and am shocked to see it ranked D in this thread's tier list. I've used Floatzel, Golduck and Gastrodon extensively as my Water types in Platinum. Floatzel definitely gives the best performance of the three, warranting an A tier. I also agree with Golduck's ranking in B tier. I do not agree with Gastrodon/Shellos's ranking at all. So I'll make one last case for this thread's tier list for Shellos as B tier.

Shellos has easy availability right after the first gym, coming with Water Pulse and sometimes even Mud Bomb, giving it solid STAB and coverage moves right out of the gate. This allows it to pull its weight for quite a while. Just as Shellos starts to tail off it gets a couple rain routes to augment its STAB and make life a bit easier till it evolves at a fairly reasonable level of 30. For comparison, I think the Shellos stage is overall better than the Psyduck stage for Golduck.

Once it's Gastrodon, it pulls its weight reasonably well. It's no Swampert, but Water/Ground has always been a solid typing and turns the Volkner matchup from disadvantageous for a pure Water like Golduck, into a terrific matchup instead. Water/Ground does have some negatives compared to pure Water (notably neutral damage from Water type attacks) but I would say it's overall a superior typing. Neither Golduck nor Gastrodon can win any critical matchups 1v1, but both perform reasonably well and pretty much evenly. On paper, they are also more or less even statistically aside from Golduck's considerably higher Speed and Gastrodon's slightly higher overall bulk. I ran a move set of Surf/Waterfall/Mud Bomb/Blizzard on Gastrodon and the exact same set on Golduck except for Psychic instead of Mud Bomb. Again, virtually dead even.

I'm open to hearing counter arguments for Gastrodon perhaps being C relative to Golduck's B tier. But at the moment, I can't see why Gastrodon shouldn't be B tier if Golduck is. It certainly should not be D tier in my opinion.
Keep in mind that the current placements are taken straight from the old thread, so that's why Shellos is in D. I do agree that D tier seems rather low, but shooting it all the way to B might be overselling it. It's still a very slow Pokemon and it's not particularly powerful either. Golduck lacks a natural power too, but it's a much better specs user thanks to its significantly higher speed.

I would be happy to bump Shellos up to C for now, but I would have to see some logs before we can decide if it deserves B tier. I think it would also be good to know whether it is at all worth it to get Shellos as early as possible, or if it's better to just get the post surf one. A slow water type doesn't seem like it would be great in the early/mid game, given that Gardenia, Jupiter and Fantina all have grass coverage. There are no explicitly positive type matchups for waters either. So personally, I think the post surf one is indeed better, but this is just theorymonning on my part. Really, we just need more tests.


Like Zebes and MasterLemon did on the FRLG and GSC boards respectively, I'll upload an image of my Platinum in-game tier list. I won't post individual descriptions for each Pokemon here, but I'm willing to answer any queries about specific placements. I chose to use the tier format used by zerokid on his GameFAQs walkthrough for RBY, though I can make distinctions between D and E Pokemon if asked.

some random things I noticed about this list:

- Kricketune seems noticeably worse than almost everything else in D tier. I would even say Wormadam and Spiritomb are better as well.
- Beautifly and especially Dustox also seem to be really high for how quickly they fall off. Their level-up movepools are terrible.
- I think Gyarados should be in A. It might take some time to get going, but it's just so versatile and it has one of the best late games thanks to dragon dance. Especially weird that it's in B when Garchomp, who requires more babying, is in A.
- D tier is quite big, and I think there are quite a few mons that could move up with a good test, like Mamoswine, Glaceon, Tangrowth and Girafarig. You could also distinguish between D and E tier, like you said. But even then, some of the aforementioned Pokemon could still move up.
 
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From when I used it many moons ago in Pearl, Spiritomb is actually okay. Takes forever to get but you get a decent mon out of it at least, albeit not one of the better Ghost or Dark types because it's so slow and neither are particularly great offensively. Honestly, I'd say it could be D though I totally get it being in the lowest tier as well.
 
some random things I noticed about this list:

- Kricketune seems noticeably worse than almost everything else in D tier. I would even say Wormadam and Spiritomb are better as well.
- Beautifly and especially Dustox also seem to be really high for how quickly they fall off. Their level-up movepools are terrible.
- I think Gyarados should be in A. It might take some time to get going, but it's just so versatile and it has one of the best late games thanks to dragon dance. Especially weird that it's in B when Garchomp, who requires more babying, is in A.
- D tier is quite big, and I think there are quite a few mons that could move up with a good test, like Mamoswine, Glaceon, Tangrowth and Girafarig. You could also distinguish between D and E tier, like you said. But even then, some of the aforementioned Pokemon could still move up.
I'll probably upload a new version of the list with an E rank. It'll probably make some of my viewpoints on specific Pokemon a bit clearer. As for the other points noticed:

- When making this E rank, I'll move Kricketune over to it.
- I'm sticking by Spiritomb in F unless people can provide a good argument for the method of obtaining it. At most I'll raise it to E.
- I'll probably move Beautifly and Dustox to D. They're one trick ponies.
- I used Gyarados in a run a few months ago. It has a good endgame yes, but the road to get it there has some bumps. I don't buy the hype for catching one at level 15 as the process is too tedious (I appreciate that not everyone considers rarity as much as I do), it has to rely on Earthquake until it gets Aqua Tail which is a valuable TM and Aqua Tail itself has surprisingly shaky accuracy. I'm sticking by my decision to have it in B, though I'm definitely reconsidering Garchomp's placement. It was in-between A and B for me already.
- Girafarig was in a C and D borderline with me, I understand a possible rise to C.
- I could possibly see Mamoswine going up, maybe Tangrowth too even though it learns its good moves too late. Glaceon not so much due to how late the Frost Rock is.
 
To help out spiritomb, I recently used it, the write up should be a page or two back (on mobile rn). Spiritomb is essentally a trade pokemon as it requires two ds' but it is also basically a guaranteed encounter that comes at similar levels to your team with a solid moveset and strong stats for that point in the game. Thw whole underground portion takes about 30 min from start to finish to get it, which while a little annoying, the actual tasks are simple enough where you can do it in the bachground of something else. I definitely don't think it should be F as it has a fair bit of use throughout the playthrough, and the way of getting it, while a little tedious, isn't difficult or reliant on rng.
In regards to mamoswine, it has been a bit since I last used it, but agree it is quite strong. Late availability sucks, but its pretty much ready to go right away. The main annoying factor was its strongest ice stab was ice fang (eww avalanche). I can definitely see a rise out of D for it.
 
I was about to post my new version of the tier list, but your thoughts Spiritomb are intriguing me. Based on your playthrough, where would you put it? As for Mamoswine, maybe I'll raise it to C. Part of my argument with it also lies with Heart Scale reliance to learn Ancient Power for evolution.
 
I think it's worth noting that Platinum is very resource rich when it comes to shards and Heart Scales, unlike say for example HGSS. There are something like seven fixed locations for Heart Scales in Platinum prior to post game, as compared to one location in HGSS, the rest being RNG based.

Mamoswine does require two Heart Scales essentially - one for Ancient Power, the other for Ice Fang probably - but I don't think that should count too heavily against it.
 
I think it's worth noting that Platinum is very resource rich when it comes to shards and Heart Scales, unlike say for example HGSS. There are something like seven fixed locations for Heart Scales in Platinum prior to post game, as compared to one location in HGSS, the rest being RNG based.

Mamoswine does require two Heart Scales essentially - one for Ancient Power, the other for Ice Fang probably - but I don't think that should count too heavily against it.
Then again, most of those heart scales are only available after the distortion world section. From what I can tell, there are three heart scales available before that point, one in Oreburgh City, and two on route 213. This is if you discount the Pokemon news press method. That should still be plenty for most playthroughs, but still, taking up two heart scales should count against Mamoswine at least a little bit.
 
I would be happy to bump Shellos up to C for now, but I would have to see some logs before we can decide if it deserves B tier. I think it would also be good to know whether it is at all worth it to get Shellos as early as possible, or if it's better to just get the post surf one. A slow water type doesn't seem like it would be great in the early/mid game, given that Gardenia, Jupiter and Fantina all have grass coverage. There are no explicitly positive type matchups for waters either. So personally, I think the post surf one is indeed better, but this is just theorymonning on my part. Really, we just need more tests.
Extremely late to the party, but Shellos is quite squishy as well, making it rather rough to train when you take into account how slow it is too. On the other hand, the typing really does wonders for it, especially late game with it being able to deal with Byron and Volkner. But yeah, it's closer to Quagsire than to Swampert when it comes to battle prowess.

C should be fine for Gastrodon.

Speaking of which, I'm not sure Medicham isn't just outright better than Gallade who is sitting at B tier. Medicham hits a fair amount harder, not even accounting for Hi Jump Kick, while Gallade probably won't get Close Combat till post game. Medicham also isn't plagued by Slow EXP and the awful Ralts and Kirlia stages. The only thing Gallade has on it is Special bulk. I can't see why Medicham shouldn't be B tier if Gallade is, and even otherwise in a vacuum.
I wouldn't quite say that Medicham is a straight upgrade on Gallade, but I can see your point.

Basically, both are doing similar things, and both have very rough starts. Ironically, despite the run around for Gallade, it still comes a lot earlier than Meditite because of this:

I’ve used Meditite (Eterna). ABSOULTELY do not use that Meditite. Just get the Celestic one. I wanted to see how bad Eterna Medi was. It did nothing. So that should probably be mentioned.
The first physical move Meditite gets is Force Palm. At level 29. (Not counting TMs of course, but you're not quite swimming in options at that point.)

So you really should just wait until Celestic.

Meanwhile, Gallade will be wanting... quite a bunch of things.

Evolving it from Ralts sounds horrible, but it's not that bad. Don't even try to do it on Hearthome though. There are a couple of double battles near Solaceon where it's going to be a smoother experience.

Then, you pretty much gotta do a stealth section until Pastoria. The lower Kirlia's level is, the better (Not that using Kirlia is a bundle of joy, to begin with). Lv. 22 gets you Slash so it can immediately go to work after evolution, but evolving it before Lv. 25 is the real goal. Natural Swords Dance. Gallade has 125 Base Atk, which paired up with Swords Dance is a force of nature.

But I haven't actually addressed how both operate yet.

They're excellent glue mons, packing hard-hitting coverage to deal with a wide array of threats.

Gallade gets an availability advantage because it gets Aerial Ace or Fist Plate Brick Break (Lucario wants no part of that.) and then Psycho Cut for Maylene and Leaf Blade for Wake. Meditite pretty much doesn't exist at that point. Outside of the Heart Scale for Leaf Blade, Aerial Ace isn't quite a contested TM and Psycho Cut is a level-up move. Leaf Blade is surprisingly useful long-term because of Surf sections and more importantly, Bertha. Though at that point, you might be wanting a different move, and really, there's no shortage of them for either.

Medicham also boasts incredible coverage by having the elemental punches on relearn. Rock Slide is also available for both. Bulk Up is also an option, but again, both can use it.

Basically, both play pretty much the same with each having different quirks that balance them out.

Sadly, for the sake of objectivity, I'd nominate both for C.

Gallade is a slow Exp mon, and seriously, you gotta waste a lot of time for it to get going. Meditite is deadweight early on to the point you really might as well catch it late-game, that's not a good look. It also requires multiple Heart Scales and doesn't really get a Psychic STAB, making it a tad too reliant on HJK. Taking any kind of crash damage on a squishy mon is not ideal, to say the least. Both also suffer from minor speed issues.


With that out of the way, it's time for the first update of the tier list!

Thanks to Magnus0 for compiling the list of changes.

Drops -
Cranidos from A to B
Shinx from A to B
Zubat from A to B
Yanma from C to F
Gallade from B to C

Rises -
Combee from F to D
Burmy trash from F to E
Swinub from E to D
Shellos from D to C
Tentacool from E to C

I honestly think Plat Burmy might be better off in D because of Bug Bite giving it much-needed STAB early on and similar utility to Staravia's Pluck.
Not sure if a split DP-list is actually sustainable at this point though.

The OP will be updated soon, just gonna leave this here for a minute while I have lunch and fix a quick mess at work.
 
Last edited:

bdt2002

Pokémon Ranger: Guardian Signs superfan
is a Pre-Contributor
Huh. I didn't think I'd be back here so quickly. I love reading these threads, but very rarely do I invite myself to participate in their creation. That being said, I've looked over the recent posts here and would like to be the first to recommend the idea of possibly tiering various Pokémon whose success is heavily related to their time of arrival separately from one another. In the case of this thread in particular, I'm talking about potentially having Meditite (Eterna), Meditite (Celestic), and potentially even Medicham all with separate entries in the tier list, as opposed to all being lumped together as one unified Meditite entry.

I'd like to hear your opinions on this idea, as well as if this idea could stick for other in-game tier lists as well. Another example I can think of off the top of my head is BW1 Drilbur in Wellspring Cave, coming much earlier than other locations but being vastly limited in its level-up kit early on. In the case of Meditite, I'll even offer to run a test of them in DP for you guys if need be, with two extra team slots to spare.

One more thing: the Meditite variations or any other examples of this throughout the series could still possibly end up in the same tier after further testing is done for each version. From what I'm seeing here as well as my prior knowledge on available help for Meditite in the Sinnoh region, I'm predicting the Celestic variant to be higher ranked than the Eterna variant, but neither one reaching higher than B Tier at the absolute best. I have more specific predictions for how this idea would go too, but that involves theorymonning so let's not do that.
 
Extremely late to the party, but Shellos is quite squishy as well, making it rather rough to train when you take into account how slow it is too. On the other hand, the typing really does wonders for it, especially late game with it being able to deal with Byron and Volkner. But yeah, it's closer to Quagsire than to Swampert when it comes to battle prowess.

C should be fine for Gastrodon.



I wouldn't quite say that Medicham is a straight upgrade on Gallade, but I can see your point.

Basically, both are doing similar things, and both have very rough starts. Ironically, despite the run around for Gallade, it still comes a lot earlier than Meditite because of this:



The first physical move Meditite gets is Force Palm. At level 29. (Not counting TMs of course, but you're not quite swimming in options at that point.)

So you really should just wait until Celestic.

Meanwhile, Gallade will be wanting... quite a bunch of things.

Evolving it from Ralts sounds horrible, but it's not that bad. Don't even try to do it on Hearthome though. There are a couple of double battles near Solaceon where it's going to be a smoother experience.

Then, you pretty much gotta do a stealth section until Pastoria. The lower Kirlia's level is, the better (Not that using Kirlia is a bundle of joy, to begin with). Lv. 22 gets you Slash so it can immediately go to work after evolution, but evolving it before Lv. 25 is the real goal. Natural Swords Dance. Gallade has 125 Base Atk, which paired up with Swords Dance is a force of nature.

But I haven't actually addressed how both operate yet.

They're excellent glue mons, packing hard-hitting coverage to deal with a wide array of threats.

Gallade gets an availability advantage because it gets Aerial Ace or Fist Plate Brick Break (Lucario wants no part of that.) and then Psycho Cut for Maylene and Leaf Blade for Wake. Meditite pretty much doesn't exist at that point. Outside of the Heart Scale for Leaf Blade, Aerial Ace isn't quite a contested TM and Psycho Cut is a level-up move. Leaf Blade is surprisingly useful long-term because of Surf sections and more importantly, Bertha. Though at that point, you might be wanting a different move, and really, there's no shortage of them for either.

Medicham also boasts incredible coverage by having the elemental punches on relearn. Rock Slide is also available for both. Bulk Up is also an option, but again, both can use it.

Basically, both play pretty much the same with each having different quirks that balance them out.

Sadly, for the sake of objectivity, I'd nominate both for C.

Gallade is a slow Exp mon, and seriously, you gotta waste a lot of time for it to get going. Meditite is deadweight early on to the point you really might as well catch it late-game, that's not a good look. It also requires multiple Heart Scales and doesn't really get a Psychic STAB, making it a tad too reliant on HJK. Taking any kind of crash damage on a squishy mon is not ideal, to say the least. Both also suffer from minor speed issues.


With that out of the way, it's time for the first update of the tier list!

Thanks to Magnus0 for compiling the list of changes.

Drops -
Cranidos from A to B
Shinx from A to B
Zubat from A to B
Yanma from C to F
Gallade from B to C

Rises -
Combee from F to D
Burmy trash from F to E
Swinub from E to D
Glaceon from E to D
Shellos from D to C
Tentacool from E to C

I honestly think Plat Burmy might be better off in D because of Bug Bite giving it much-needed STAB early on and similar utility to Staravia's Pluck.
Not sure if a split DP-list is actually sustainable at this point though.

The OP will be updated soon, just gonna leave this here for a minute while I have lunch and fix a quick mess at work.
Any thoughts on Tangela as C tier? Seeing Leafeon in C tier, I'm curious about the arguments for it being ranked one tier above Tangela.

Leafeon has earlier availability, sure. But remember Razor Leaf costs a Heart Scale, which means it won't even have a physical STAB until the point where you can get a Tangela. Without that, I don't think it's winning any big matchups before you could get Tangela. It's worth noting Leafeon has a very nice in game Speed stat. But on the move set side, it's probably looking at a pretty lackluster end game set of Razor Leaf, X Scissor, Dig and...Strength?

Meanwhile, Tangrowth gets the tools it needs fairly soon upon capture to be a pretty good SunnyBeamer off of very nice Special Attack. It's also a much better Giga Drain user than Leafeon, helping it replenish chip damage and conserve healing items along the longer treks of the game.

Neither win any big matchups against Cynthia 1v1 as far as I can tell. I'm struggling to think of a good reason why Tangela shouldn't at least be equal tier with Leafeon.
 
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Ryota Mitarai

Shrektimus Prime
is a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Top Smogon Media Contributor
That being said, I've looked over the recent posts here and would like to be the first to recommend the idea of possibly tiering various Pokémon whose success is heavily related to their time of arrival separately from one another. I'm talking about potentially having Meditite (Eterna), Meditite (Celestic), and potentially even Medicham all with separate entries in the tier list
I am by no means a DPPt expert and this is not my own list, so Volt/Magnus can do whatever they want with that, but it's generally a practice to just tier off the better version and mention in the write-up why the other version is not worth using. Tiering variations when not heavily necessary leads to unnecessary clutter for the end article (I am saying unnecessary because the write-ups for both would end up being very similar, unless you purposelly try to make them different, which has its own issues) and those articles are already long as they are and trying to get QC / GP checks on them once they get transferred to the In-game articles subforum is already difficult, so I'd say less is more here, but again, I don't really know Sinnoh, so maybe the situation here would warrant this, but thought I'd offer my perspective here.

This is probably more fit for the policy thread, so not planning on derailing this further.

(note: this assumes you are tiering within the same games. It'd make sense to split a Pokemon because its performance in Platinum is different to DP and that's what all lists that have "third games" practice).
 
That being said, I've looked over the recent posts here and would like to be the first to recommend the idea of possibly tiering various Pokémon whose success is heavily related to their time of arrival separately from one another. In the case of this thread in particular, I'm talking about potentially having Meditite (Eterna), Meditite (Celestic), and potentially even Medicham all with separate entries in the tier list, as opposed to all being lumped together as one unified Meditite entry.
I am by no means a DPPt expert and this is not my own list, so Volt/Magnus can do whatever they want with that, but it's generally a practice to just tier off the better version and mention in the write-up why the other version is not worth using. Tiering variations when not heavily necessary leads to unnecessary clutter for the end article (I am saying unnecessary because the write-ups for both would end up being very similar, unless you purposelly try to make them different, which has its own issues) and those articles are already long as they are and trying to get QC / GP checks on them once they get transferred to the In-game articles subforum is already difficult, so I'd say less is more here, but again, I don't really know Sinnoh, so maybe the situation here would warrant this, but thought I'd offer my perspective here.

This is probably more fit for the policy thread, so not planning on derailing this further.

(note: this assumes you are tiering within the same games. It'd make sense to split a Pokemon because its performance in Platinum is different to DP and that's what all lists that have "third games" practice).
Couldn't say it better myself. Thanks Ryota.

It really boils down to a couple extra lines on the write-up, so it's not much of a hassle, and the alternative would be all but impractical.

Also, this is strictly a policy question, so any further discussion should be taken to its appropriate thread.
 

bdt2002

Pokémon Ranger: Guardian Signs superfan
is a Pre-Contributor
Couldn't say it better myself. Thanks Ryota.

It really boils down to a couple extra lines on the write-up, so it's not much of a hassle, and the alternative would be all but impractical.

Also, this is strictly a policy question, so any further discussion should be taken to its appropriate thread.
Hey, that’s all fine and good with me. No worries :)
 
Now that more people have posted, I can upload the altered version of my tier list. This was made a few days ago, meaning I've changed my mind in a few areas. For one thing, hearing others' thoughts on Spiritomb, I'd probably put it in either E or D in hindsight.
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