Dragon Ball Z Fandom Topics

Chou Toshio

Chou Toshio

Over9000
is an Artist Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Top Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
Dragon Ball, it's like the grand daddy of all modern Shonen series. Whether you attack with flying Chakra balls, Reiatsu blasts, Gear-boosted steam shots, or flying forks, you're basically just doing a re-take of

Kamehameha-dragon-ball-z-26891162-800-600.jpg
Goku%27s_Super_Kamehameha.JPG


And you know it.

Note: For the purposes of making this thread not shitty, Dragon Ball GT will not be considered canon for the following discussion topics. Movies are also not canon.

So in the true style of Dragon Ball Z, this thread will probably be an insane brawl-- we fans (and not-so-fans) of the series duking it out over the many fandom issues of the series. Answering the big questions, like:

-What makes this series so great?

or:

-What are the major flaws of DBZ (and yes, there are many), and how was the series so successful in spite of them?

-What makes DBZ the absolute best series one could possibly abridge?
Note: not necessarily the best abridged series (though possibly), but DBZ is definitely the series that works best with abridging.


 Also, sides of debates going head to head.

Cell Saga v. Majin Buu Saga: Which is the true best ending of the series?
(Answer: It's the Cell saga)
Buu saga was just a shitty convoluted mess designed to make money by appealing to small boy's love of flashy power-ups with no rhyme, reason, or substance-- the series tremendous inconsistencies are also ridiculous.

Cell is an enemy born of Goku's own past, and Goku has responsibility for Cell's threat to the Earth (Goku defeated the Red Ribbon Army, but didn't kill Dr. Gero). Cell is also the culmination of the powers of all fighters up to this point. This means both in his fighting skills, and in what he represents, Cell is a poetic final foe. The fact that it's not Goku, but Gohan, who defeats Cell by unlocking a new power no one else could achieve, makes the conclusion even more decisive. Goku's 2nd death, his sacrifice for the Earth, and decision to not be revived, also marks him as a hero and finally makes "death" have actual meaning/consequence; something the series otherwise struggles with.

Meanwhile, Buu saga makes Gohan's ascention to SSJ2 in Cell Saga meaningless, because a few years down the road, Goku and Vegeta achieve it too (where as the cell saga held that both had limitations that made it impossible for them to achieve). Making SSJ2 achievable by anyone with a couple extra years of training makes it meaningless. It also makes cell saga Goku a dumb assfor not going into the Hyperbolic Time chamber a 2nd time, because if SSJ2 is achievable by anyone given more time for training, he and Gohan would have only gained by training more.

Also truly makes "death" meaningless. Goku comes back from the dead, spitting in the face of the meaning of his sacrifice in Cell Saga; the entire population of the earth is revived, and everyone has their memory wiped-- meaning that overcoming Majin Buu's threat to the Earth left no one the wiser; it had no consequence or meaning.

As for the rich story of where the main villain comes from: "A wizard did it."

Buu Saga is one of the biggest trolls of modern anime.

Also, Dragon Ball Kai, which was a series designed to stream Dragon Ball Z into a better series with no filler, ended at Cell Saga-- admitting that Buu Saga is ass, and Cell Saga's ending has more closure, and a better message.


Gohan v. Goku: Who is the strongest non-fused Saiyan? (sorry Vegeta fans, but you know he don't stack up)
(Answer: It's Gohan, whether Cell or Buu saga, Gohan is the strongest canon Saiyan)
SSJ2 Gohan clearly shows himself superior to any other fighter in Cell Saga.

In Buu Saga, "Mystic"/Ultimate Gohan completely takes Super Buu apart, where as SSJ3 Goku struggles to even fight "Fat" Buu. Basically:

Ultimate Gohan > Super Buu > [Fat Buu = SSJ3 Goku]

Also, it's implied that Gotenks is stronger than Goku, meaning SSJ3 Gotenks is stronger than SSJ3 Goku. Ultimate Gohan is directly shown to be superior to SSJ3 Gotenks. No matter how you look at it, inside the "canon" Buu saga, it makes no sense for Goku to be anywhere near Gohan's level.


Theorizing: Old Kai's technique unlocks all sleeping powers. Goku also describes SSJ3 as a power locked away deep inside [the sleeping powers of the Saiya-jin]. Therefore, I'm guessing that Old Kai's technique actually went ahead and unlocked Gohan's SSJ3 powers, meaning that "Ultimate" Gohan is essentially an SSJ3+ Saiya-jin that doesn't burn any excess energy associated with transformation. He has full access to all SSJ3's powers, but with no stress on his body. That's srsly broke


Ultimate Gohan v. Kid Buu: Who is the strongest non-fused being?
This is likely not to go anywhere. Gohan and Kid Buu are both shown to be superior to SSJ3 Goku, but we don't have any measuring bar beyond that. Gohan and Kid Buu are both far inferior to Vegeto, but then that doesn't help us either.

(Looking up at the above questions, you see why I say the Buu saga is a absolute mess)


Dragon Ball Z v. Dragon Ball Kai: Did Kai succeed at making the series better?
It would have succeeded-- if it had Bruce Faulkner music.

Dragon Ball Z Dub v. Dragon Ball Z Japanese: An Anime series where the English version is better???
English is better.
Goku has a man voice, Bruce Faulkner kicks the crap out of all the Japanese music, and frankly Akira Toriyama sucks ass at writing dialogue. I've read the original Japanese. It's boring as fuck compared to the English Anime dialogue.


Dragon Soul v. Cha-La Head Cha-La
Which is your go-to DBZ Karaoke song? (Dan Dan Kokoro is probably the only good thing to come out of GT, just saiyan')

What are the best "Stupid Goku" moments?
"Now hear me out King Kai. If I wait for him to reach 100%, and beat him then, it'll demoramolize him-- and he'll never come back to haunt us again."

There are so many great issues to discuss-- I've put a bunch out there but feel free to bring in your own too.

In the words of Majin Vegeta (only great thing to come out of Buu-Saga):

"The stage has been set. Now let us begin!"
 
I'll just go ahead and get this out of the way, but I ADORE DBZ. It's probably my favorite anime of all time, even though it's clearly not the "best". I think the big reason for that is I literally grew up alongside it. Every day was a sprint off the bus to tune in to Toonami. It's also gotten me through some tough times; it was an escape that took my mind off the painful stuff, and that's also something I can appreciate.

I haven't really been able to get into Kai. The music change hits really hard, I think. Faulkner was a genius with his pieces. They set the mood so easily, and defined characters. Any time that piano started playing, you KNEW who was bout to show up haha. As for what TFS has done, it can only really help the series. DBZ has so many quirks, corny dialogue, and inconsistencies to make it very easy to script for abridging. Throw in a great team like TFS and you have an overall amazing ABS. Hell, even Chris Sabat loves it, and the fact Funimation hasn't taken ANY of their content down speaks volumes (hello Yu-Gi-Oh TABS).

Personally, I adore everything DBZ under the sun not named GT. So, the clear badness of the Buu saga really didn't bother me. Cell saga was the clear cut "ending", I suppose, but I'm still quite glad they went ahead and made another saga.

Have any of you watched the 2008 special? Or the mini movie "Plan to Eradicate the Super Saiyans"? I've noticed Funimation han't dubbed them yet, which is a little odd. I REALLY hope they will dub the movie that'll be released over in Japan in March. What with it being a theatrical release, I hope they pick it up. And with DBZ's OLD cast, not Kai's (I always feel weird listening to a different sounding Bulma, for example).

And finally, Cha-la Head Cha-la is the catchiest song EVER.
 
at least buu saga had goku going ss3 which was awesome. to me, frieza saga is clearly the greatest saga in the entire series. cell is numba 2.
 
Tayla said:
I'll just go ahead and get this out of the way, but I ADORE DBZ. It's probably my favorite anime of all time, even though it's clearly not the "best". I think the big reason for that is I literally grew up alongside it. Every day was a sprint off the bus to tune in to Toonami. It's also gotten me through some tough times; it was an escape that took my mind off the painful stuff, and that's also something I can appreciate.
Click to expand...

I know exactly what you're talking about. Even if there are series that are done better as a story *cough*One Piece*cough* and done better as art *cough*One Piece*cough* and have overall superior quality and lack of inconsistencies *cough*One Piece*cough*, I still find myself coming back and re-watching DBZ a lot.

I haven't really been able to get into Kai. The music change hits really hard, I think. Faulkner was a genius with his pieces. They set the mood so easily, and defined characters. Any time that piano started playing, you KNEW who was bout to show up haha.
Click to expand...
I think Japanese Kai is a clear-cut improvement over the original Japanese DBZ. Looking at the original anime, Kai's cut-out-the-fat editing, improved sound and video quality is great. Plus, I have to mention the lack of filler again.

Now, comparing the English Kai to the English Dub... er... yeah, DBZ just can't be it's best without Faulkner. His music is too damn good. Plus, I can't support a translation that is more faithful to the original Japanese dialogue-- because as mentioned, the original Japanese dialogue is bland as hell.

I think that the biggest step up from DBZ that series like One Piece and Naruto have taken is taking the Shonen action manga model, and building more in-depth characterizing and human dialogue into the story.

The Funimation Dub just has better writing and more emotion than the original Japanese. Therefore, strange to say, but being less faithful to translation makes for a better show.

As for what TFS has done, it can only really help the series. DBZ has so many quirks, corny dialogue, and inconsistencies to make it very easy to script for abridging. Throw in a great team like TFS and you have an overall amazing ABS. Hell, even Chris Sabat loves it, and the fact Funimation hasn't taken ANY of their content down speaks volumes (hello Yu-Gi-Oh TABS).
Click to expand...
lol yeah, DBZ TAS is just sooo amazing. I can't wait for the second episode of DB Kai TAS now that season 2 is done.

Personally, I adore everything DBZ under the sun not named GT. So, the clear badness of the Buu saga really didn't bother me. Cell saga was the clear cut "ending", I suppose, but I'm still quite glad they went ahead and made another saga.
Click to expand...
I can't help but be bothered by the sloppiness and inconsistencies of the Buu arc (not to mention everything that's wrong about it story-wise), but I have to agree that there are moments of pure bad-assery achieved by the series that would truly be sorely missed if they didn't exist. I mean:

-Majin Vegeta (Funimation Dub Vegeta's speech at the World Tournament is one of the most epic things in all of anime ever)
-Vegeto's major bad-assery

I personally don't really care for / like SSJ3. I guess it's kinda cool.

The more elegant/artistic/classy solution would have just to make non-canon manga specials / movies / OAVs to take care of this stuff though, if they didn't want to take the effort to write plot-line that was actually good.

Have any of you watched the 2008 special? Or the mini movie "Plan to Eradicate the Super Saiyans"? I've noticed Funimation han't dubbed them yet, which is a little odd. I REALLY hope they will dub the movie that'll be released over in Japan in March. What with it being a theatrical release, I hope they pick it up. And with DBZ's OLD cast, not Kai's (I always feel weird listening to a different sounding Bulma, for example).
Click to expand...
I'm not sure which one was the special? Plan to Eradicate the Super Saiyans was just dumb-- sorry. The March movie looks pretty promising though-! Overall, I'm not a fan of the "new" art style; I like the old one better. It's got more "grit", it feels more real, and not like just any other Saturday morning cartoon.

Plus in the old days, they didn't care about seizure-inducing special effects, which makes all the energy battles that much more epic.

I'm sure Funimation would get the old cast together if it could-- I accept that things are not always possible. Not getting Faulkner back is not acceptable for anything DBZ though. lol

And finally, Cha-la Head Cha-la is the catchiest song EVER.
Click to expand...
True words.


...except that I like One Piece's "We Go!" better, but Cha-La is a close second.
 
I never watched dragon ball as a kid because by the time it got my attention it was too far into the show to catch up so I just forgot about it. It's always been my bestfriend's favorite show. A lot of concepts in the show are pretty deep from my understanding lol.

My friend has After Effects 7 and wants to make a short dragonball style film. If we ever go through with it I'll be sure to post it here
 
The special was Yo! Son Goku and his Friends Return!, or something along those lines. It's set a bit after the Buu saga.

Also, http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=9FqgVPlVCrY is a very cool video. It shows the three different DBZ opening.

The first is the Vegeta - Namek saga, the second is the remastered Cell - Buu saga opening, while the third is from the 2008 special. The third one was also edited to include Goten, and is done in the new style.
 
Fuck yeah, DBZ is awesome. Sure there's a ton of stupidity and glazed ham, but that just made things better. It was the #1 reason why I thought Cartoon Network was superior to Nickelodeon back in the day.

I think what makes DBZ so great to abridge is because of how drawn out the original series is. Anyone familiar with DBZ knows it is notorious for its filler and padding. I probably didn't care too much when I was a kid, but I can't fucking stand it now. I just want the story and the battles to move along, I don't wanna waste my time watching two fighters just staring at each other for a minute. In DBZ Kai and DBZ Abridged, the pacing is perfect, the fight scenes are fast-paced, and there's no pointless and uninteresting episodes.

Cell Saga is easily the better ending of the series. DBZ was about the growth and development of Gohan, much like how Dragon Ball was about the growth and development of Goku. The Cell Saga finished Gohan's character development brilliantly, with him surpassing his father and becoming the strongest in the universe. Let's see what happens to him in the Buu Saga. He gets ultimate power, beats up Buu for a few minutes, then gets his ass handed to him. Lame.

Getting onto the soundtrack, I think DBZ Kai's original soundtrack is fucking awesome. Dragon Soul, The Ginyu Force's theme,Frieza's theme, Saiyan Blood, and The Braveheart Challenges the Strong are all tracks I just adore. It's a shame it got replaced later down the line, but it's no deal-breaker.
 
decided to watch the whole thing this summer, first time watching an anime series as an 'adult', gave up when kid buu made his appearance. my interest waned further each time i felt like the series 'should have' ended. i'll probably pick it back up, though, considering how watching 90% of a 300 episode series and then dropping it feels kind of wrong.

i really feel like had the show not stopped taking itself seriously, the buu saga could have been incredible. super buu is definitely the most terrifying villain in the series (that scene were he flies into that dude's mouth and makes him explode? man), and had they capitalized on that with a less corny atmosphere it could have been fantastic i think.

imo they should have injected the fanservice and jokiness into the cell games since that arc was, if anything, a lot more ridiculous.
 
Okay I honestly have grown up with Dragon Ball Z, played all of the PS2 games, played some of the xbox ones, watched Kai, watch the Abridged, seen most of the movies and specials...honestly I love the series to death. It gets annoying sometimes, and it could very easily have been "better" but for better or worse it's one of my favorites of all times. I remember the times I was in my cousin's playroom when we were younger (playing Yugioh, just like they did on the show...no tributes!) and watching DBZ...and spending 12 episodes in a row in the Freeza arc and going "the fuck kind of five minutes is this???" The sheer amount of nostalgia for me in this show really outweighs any of the faults it may have, as I recognize it stretches needlessly hard and isn't appealing to everyone. However, the music, the battles, the action, the POW POW are just so cool. The Cell arc is the coolest thing to have happened since ever, but I also love Videl to death, making me really enjoy Buu. One of the things I love most about the series are the training bits...I really enjoy the training scenes for some reason.

Dragon Ball Z is a masterpiece. It's a masterpiece with flaws, but it's a masterpiece nonetheless. Cell is the best arc, Buu is cool but Akira Toriyama didn't even want to write it...he was forced to. You can't really get mad at him for that. Carl Sabat is the greatest voice actor...Broly was the shit.

DBZ abridged is great because DBZ has some of the funniest shit amongst the action, giving you a lot of material to edit and splice together to make an excellent product. Ghost Nappa rocks my world.

Cell is the true ending because it's significantly fucking better. Also Akira Toriyama as said didn't even want to write Buu.

Gohan is stronger but he's also a (BAN ME PLEASE) so I'm sticking with Goku. I like Vegeta so much more though goddamn...AND TRUNKS <33333

Gohan > Buu but he just got eaten cause he's dumb as shit. (BAN ME PLEASE) fairy Gohan....

Kai is much more fun to watch if you want to get into the series than the original sometimes because it's much more fast paced. I found myself getting really excited with Kai...shame about the music but I honestly personally think it's a better product.

DUB > Japanese but not the Ocean dub...that sucks shit. Funimation all day on this one.

DRAGON SOULLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL

And lol all of the abridged Goku moments kill me.
 
A few things:

-Gohan is not the only one to achieve SSJ2 in Cell Saga. Vegeta and Trunks achieve it first, and then Goku achieves it in the hyperbolic time chamber. Gohan is the last of the four to achieve it. It's harder to tell with Vegeta and Trunks, but you can clearly see that Goku's hair is more condensed when he fights Cell.

-Kai stopped after Cell Saga due to legal issues (apparently somebody plagiarized the music or something). I've heard they're going to be covering Buu Saga soon.

As for favorite dumb Goku moment, courtesy of TFS:

(On Namek, right after Goku confronts Frieza. Frieza shoots Vegeta through the heart.)

Vegeta: Why didn't you block THAT one?!
Goku: I thought you had it!
Vegeta: NO!
 
Tobes said:
-Gohan is not the only one to achieve SSJ2 in Cell Saga. Vegeta and Trunks achieve it first, and then Goku achieves it in the hyperbolic time chamber. Gohan is the last of the four to achieve it. It's harder to tell with Vegeta and Trunks, but you can clearly see that Goku's hair is more condensed when he fights Cell.
Click to expand...

That wasn't SSJ2, that was Ascended SSJ, which is just SSJ with increased power output.

Edit: Outlaw: Master Ninja.
 
Yeah Tobes those are completely different things. If you remember, Trunks was going "well fuck no wonder my father didn't bother with this form, it's so slow!!!" He realized even mid battle that what he was rocking was straight balls.

Also two of my favorite moments in the show were both Gohan. When Gohan walked out of the hyperbolic time chamber as a Super Saiyan...those faces. And once again, when Gohan turned Super Saiyan in the world tournament and his friends were like "waaaaaaaaaat"...I loved that one too.
 
ascended =\= ultra

vegeta and trunks get ultra. ascended is the at-rest ssj goku and gohan learn
 
DBZ is by far my favorite anime. I've been watching it since I was 6 years old, and my best friend owns the entire series on DVD. The first time I watched the entire series was weird, because I watched it way out of order, starting with imperfect Cell, then the entire Buu saga out of order, and then from the beginning, but that was all because I was just watching it at random points on TV. I've played most of the main games like Budokai, Tenkaichi, Legacy of Goku, etc., and even though most of them get bad reviews I still enjoy playing them. Now that I'm older some of the filler episodes kind of bug me, but it feels like I'm getting the entire experience when I watch them along with the episodes that actually matter (except Garlic Jr. Fuck him and fuck his entire stupid filler arc. Bleach's Bount arc was better, and that's saying a lot.).


I guess I'm the only Vegeta fanboy in this thread. Yeah, I know that by the end of the Cell Saga every other Saiyan is probably stronger than him, but I don't care. He's been my favorite ever since the very first time I saw him (when I was about 6, and it was during his glory battle against imperfect Cell). He just seemed like the coolest fucking dude I'd ever seen before. The whole Final Flash episode really pulled me in. At the time I couldn't believe any of those people could unleash such a massive amount of power (note that I was quite young and not completely exposed to the rest of the series). He got rofl-stomped almost immediately after, but that didn't matter to me. I was always rooting for him, even when he was evil. He also had the best music, by far. I mean, come on. The fucking bells? That frantic piano bit? Glorious.

So there's some unorganized, fanboy vomit.
 
I'm actually currently finishing up Dragon Ball Kai. When I was a kid I'd be able to catch one out of three DBZ episodes at best, and yet it still never felt like I missed anything. DBZ defined its genre... it's a bloated mess of constant power creep. I don't know why it succeeded, but it did well enough to spawn countless imitators. Which are all more interesting, Bleach with its sword powers, One Piece with fruit powers, Naruto with ninjutsu. DBZ is a total blank slate of flying, punching fast, and shooting balls of light. What makes Vegeta's big ball of light (final flash) so much cooler than any other?

When I was a kid there was a show I liked better. It was more martial arts themed. The main character was based off of the Monkey King with his extending staff, and flying on a cloud. He'd fight mad scientists and robots. There would also be rival martial artists and mercenaries who were more menacing than any DBZ character without being a "world-ending" threat. There were also female characters that were relevant for more than just making babies. Where did that show ever go? Whoever wrote it makes Akira Toriyama look like a hack.
 
Whew, here we go.

So awhile back chaos had engaged PS chat in a DBZ discussion and if you've ever seen a simulator chat about anything you can guess how that one turned out. The Gohan v Goku argument came up and I agree that during Buu Saga, Gohan was the strongest. However, after the final timeskip (5 years?) it is very possible that Goku had once again become strongest. Gohan's lack of training after the Cell Saga could be used to support the argument along with Goku never stopping and his excitement over Uub.

My favorite saga is easily the Cell Saga, it just had so much going for it. That said, my favorite villian is Frieza. Cell might have the DNA of every important fighter while having an awesome arsenal of techniques and an actual brain but Frieza destroyed both Goku and Piccolo's entire race while having centuries have oppression. In my mind, you can't beat that.

The Buu Saga is the let down of the series imo, Cell had a better ending going for it. Gohan's potential adventures and power from that point were just so much better, in the Buu Saga it felt like all the character development had gone right down the toilet. HE COULDN'T CATCH A FUCKING EAR RING. That entire saga could've been rewritten to make Gohan the main character and the Budokai where Goku comes back could've been stuck at the ending.

My favorite character is Goku, Future Trunks is a close second. Gohan and Vegeta were both great characters but they had enough bad moments where I just can't like them as much. Future Trunks never really had a fucked up moment, had a great backstory, and a FUCKIN SWORD. Goku is my favorite just because the whole series had revolved around him and I'm biased.

Is my post longer than Chou's?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top