That would be cool, but it is on-site already bro. Sixth set down seeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
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Dragonite (Classic MixNite Revamp) [QC: 3/3][GP: 2/2]
- Thread starter Jimera0
- Start date
I may be pulling a big-lipped alligator moment here, but a SuperPower AND Roost tutor is confirmed for the new games, so unless for some ridiculous reason Dragonite doesn't learn SuperPower, I don't think we have to worry about compatibility regarding Inner Focus.
Woah people have actually been discussing this when I was doing all the other crap I had on my table.
Anyway, I WAS going to do some testing today, but then I saw all the new tutor stuff including Superpower, which means there's no reason to use Inner Focus at all now. Of course I can't actually TEST Superpower without Inner Focus yet, meaning that any set and comments I come up with now may well be invalid in a couple weeks.
So bottom line is I'm probably going to put this on hiatus for a little while longer, wait until stuff is actually updated before going onwards with this. I might test out some variations without superpower in the meantime but don't count on it.
On another note, I agree with Pocket that Superpower and EQ should be slashed, seeing as they do mostly the same thing and there are definite perks to both. I should also point out that no one has been mentioning the stat drops from Superpower, which are quite significant on an SR weak Pokemon that can't do hit and run very well. Still the ability to OHKO things like Tyranitar and Chansey can't be overlooked, especially since I am very much aware of "baiting the outrage" as a strategy (used it myself plenty of times).
I will however move those 4 evs like Pocket suggested; I had no idea that moving them would give 2 extra points, I guess there are exceptions to the 4 EVs = 1 point rule. Learn something new every day!
Anyway, I WAS going to do some testing today, but then I saw all the new tutor stuff including Superpower, which means there's no reason to use Inner Focus at all now. Of course I can't actually TEST Superpower without Inner Focus yet, meaning that any set and comments I come up with now may well be invalid in a couple weeks.
So bottom line is I'm probably going to put this on hiatus for a little while longer, wait until stuff is actually updated before going onwards with this. I might test out some variations without superpower in the meantime but don't count on it.
On another note, I agree with Pocket that Superpower and EQ should be slashed, seeing as they do mostly the same thing and there are definite perks to both. I should also point out that no one has been mentioning the stat drops from Superpower, which are quite significant on an SR weak Pokemon that can't do hit and run very well. Still the ability to OHKO things like Tyranitar and Chansey can't be overlooked, especially since I am very much aware of "baiting the outrage" as a strategy (used it myself plenty of times).
I will however move those 4 evs like Pocket suggested; I had no idea that moving them would give 2 extra points, I guess there are exceptions to the 4 EVs = 1 point rule. Learn something new every day!
Yes I'm aware of this, hence why I suggested that this set replace the one on-site, for it does a better job, IMO.
Quite honestly, I think this new MixNite, the set I posted and the Rain Attacker set on-site could be rolled into one. A rain wallbreaker obviously distinguishes Dragonite from the Classic set and other wallbreakers while simultaneously out-damaging the Rain Attacker set in almost every case.
All calcs are with a 136 Atk/232 SpA/140 Spe, Mild nature (outspeeding SpD Heatran):
-Thunder vs Standard Jellicent (248/0 EVs, Neutral Nature): 72.9 ~ 86.3% (comfortable 2hko) VS Rain Attacker Hurricane: 55.3 ~ 65.5% (2hko with SR)
-Thunder vs Physical Skarmory (252/0 EVs, Neutral Nature): 122.1 ~ 144.3% (overkill) VS Rain Attacker Hurricane: 46.7 ~ 54.7% (chance to 2hko after SR, rain-boosted Aqua Tail does even less.)
-Thunder vs Hydration Wall Vaporeon (252/224 EVs, Neutral Nature): 55.6 ~ 65.5% (2hko with SR) VS Rain Attacker Hurricane: 42 ~ 49.7% (never 2hko's)
-Thunder vs Defensive Politoed (252/4 EVs, Neutral Nature): 79.6 ~ 93.7% (70% chance to ohko after two SR switch-ins) vs Rain Attacker Hurricane: 60.4 ~ 71.3% (not a sure 2hko)
-Earthquake vs SpD. Jirachi (252/0 EVs, Neutral Nature): 66.3 ~ 78.2% (sure 2hko) VS Rain Attacker Aqua Tail: 48.2 ~ 56.9% (that's in rain, possible 2hko)
-Superpower vs Eviolite Chansey (252/252 EVs, +Nature): 60.2 ~ 71% (still a 2hko, does 40.1% min at -1)
Thanks to Thunder over rain-boosted Aqua Tail, Dragonite nets surprising ko's and 2hko's on the bulky opponents that can come in on an Aqua Tail, some of which can also take one Hurricane. Not only that, but it still nabs the 2hko's on Standard Ferrothorn and Gastrodon that the Rain Attacker does. Now not relying on Aqua Tail, EQ and Superpower can be left to okho Heatran and Tyranitar, respectively.
I know that this New Mixnite can do these things with Draco Meteor/Fire Blast, but this one does so without an unnecessary -2 after one attack. Also, note that most of the targets I mentioned can take a Draco Meteor, can take Dragonite's other moves well and are also Water-type. The natural ability to resist the Fire Blast essentially forces Dragonite to lower its SpA in order to get respectable damage on them, and many can simply heal off that damage as Dragonite retreats or tries for the often pointless -2 ko. Thunder bypasses this by nailing those targets for super-effective damage and makes "baiting the Draco" futile.
Bottom line, Thunder allows this Rain Wallbreaker Dragonite to hit more things harder than the Rain Attacker, arguably does so equally as well as the proposed New MixNite, if not better, and all the while still differentiating itself from the classic build and other wallbreakers.
Specifically, you'll get an extra point in a stat if you've got a boosting nature and the value before the nature is a multiple of 10.
Why can't we just give this set a mention in the additional comments of the onsite classic mixed sweeper, because this is set is extremely similar to the one onsite barring Outrage and a different EV spread.
Also, with the BW2 move tutors being released the mixed set is likely to get revamped anyway so we can revisit this issue then.
Also, with the BW2 move tutors being released the mixed set is likely to get revamped anyway so we can revisit this issue then.
Really late reply, but other QC members have agreed to at least rework it since the spread on-site seems to be somewhat sub-optimal...
Anyway, I've recently restarted testing now that BW2 madness has settled down somewhat, and have started crunching some calculations to figure out exactly what each variation of this set loses and gains. This has turned out to be a pretty daunting task since there are like 6 variations of this set between varying EV spreads and moves.
The gist of what I have determined is this:
First I took a look to see exactly what I was outspeeding with those speed EVs except for Gliscor. Here's a list of notables and how they can threaten Dragonite:
Uninvested Gyarados (I guess Stone Edge?)
All unboosted Gorebyss (Frequently carries Ice Beam)
Max speed Tangrowth out of Sun (ok that's a stretch, how often do you see that)
Uninvested Suicune and Toxicroak (Ice attack carriers, especially Toxicroak)
Roserade (Sleep Powder and HP Ice)
Sub-Charge Magnezone (Just hits fucking hard)
Max Max Speed Scrafty (Ice Punch)
Modest Specs Politoed (ICE BEAM! Big deal this one)
Standard Tentacruel (Ice Beam, Toxic Sub-tect stall)
Max Speed Tyranitar (Stone Edge)
Bulky Rotom-A (Will-o-wisp, HP Ice)
SD Gliscor (Ice Fang, duh)
Defensive Celebi (HP Ice, T-wave)
Defensive Zapdos (HP Ice, Toxic)
Speed ties with Tormentran (Ok who uses this but yeah I guess)
Then I had to determine if Extreme Speed could beat these threats. The answer is interesting; if we're talking about them switching into an attack from Dragonite, then you can (assuming they didn't switch into a resisted move). But if they come in after a kill, then the answer is a resounding no for almost all of them. So what I find is that interestingly, what we thought was giving Dragonite staying power (kill revenge killers) actually lets MORE Pokemon revenge kill it. And don't assume prior damage, since this set isn't a clean up sweeper, it's a wallbreaker. It usually shows up pretty early in the game, so you can't expect more than 20% prior damage on anything.
So really, the only benefit from using the old spread is you get a decent priority move. It greatly detracts from the wallbreaking purpose though, as you lose the coverage from your second physical move.
I suppose the old spread still has some merit if you're desperately looking for more priority on your team, but overall I believe that IT should be the AC mention, not the set I devised.
Quite importantly I discovered that now that Multiscale and Superpower are compatible that it is without a doubt the best move in the third slot under most circumstances.
Now onto a different topic; Outrage and just how necessary it is. When playing with this set recently I've found myself using Outrage very little for one key reason; clicking it pretty much ensures your death unless you've eliminated everything that can threaten Dragonite already. This, combined with the fact that running both Superpower and EQ is entirely feasible, made me wonder just how necessary Outrage really was.
Ultimately, I discovered that Outrage does help nab a couple key KOs that EQ doesn't. The most prominent one is Jellicent, who you cannot 2HKO with Draco-Meteor without significant prior damage. Specially Defensive is KO'd by DM followed by Super Power most of the time, but can survive. With Outrage, it cannot. Against other mons that could feasibly take two Draco meteors though, it proves much less useful. Obviously against Steels you're better off with EQ, Fire Blast or Super Power. Defensive Politoed is 2HKO'd by Draco meteor followed by Superpower. Chansey is 2HKO'd by Super-power much more reliably so it's a non-issue. Tentacruel is hit harder by EQ. Porygon2 is hit harder by Superpower as well.
So I'm thinking that in most circumstances EQ is actually better than Outrage, primarily since this way if you mis-predict you didn't just waste Dragonite. Even Jellicent and Politoed will fall with a bit of prior damage, and Dragonite's main role is to take out Physically defensive Pokemon anyway, not specially defensive ones.
Finally, I had one more thought; Do I really need an attack boosting nature, or is a SpA boosting nature better? Basically, the physical attacks are there purely to nab specific KOs, if the boost doesn't make a difference to those KOs then I might as well boost my main attacking moves in Fire Blast and Draco meteor.
My first calculation was the obvious one; Chansey. I discover that it does in fact make a difference; what was originally a guaranteed 2HKO is now possible to miss out on without SR. Still, that's fairly minor as you just need to NICK Chansey to secure it. I then check some others. Jirachi comes first, and I find that it makes no significant difference. Tentacruel and Tyranitar are mostly the same as well. Porygon2 becomes slightly harder to crack, but you're losing most of the time to it anyway so that hardly matters. It makes no difference against Blissey. Jellicent is still beaten with Outrage from full health 98% of the time. Without Outrage, Ultility counter Jellicent is 2HKO'd most of the time by Draco Meteor (guaruanteed with SR) while Specially defensive Jellicent is just as hard as it was before. So, Bold Jellicent is easier to beat with Rash. Politoed also becomes easier, becoming a guaranteed 2HKO with Draco Meteor, meaning you don't have to lower your Defense and Attack to take it out. Gastrodon is exactly the same as before.
So, for the tl;dr people, what I have concluded is this;
-Extreme Speed is useless unless you REALLY want priority, use my spread.
-Outrage is outclassed by SP and EQ except against Specialyl defensive Jellicent
-Rash or other SpA boosting nature is better than Attack boosting nature 99% of the time.
So, the new standard set would look like:
Dragonite @ Life Orb
Ability: Multiscale
EVs: 60 Att / 252 SpA / 196 Spe
Nature: Rash
Moves:
-Draco Meteor
-Fire Blast
-Superpower
-Earthquake / ExtremeSpeed (if you're desperate for priority).
Any thoughts, comments, corrections etc. appreciated.
Well I have serious doubts about how useful Roost would actually be. Usually you're better off pounding the crap out of something when they switch rather than heal. Longevity is not really the goal of this set; it's meant to come in, blast the bajeezez out of stuff and go down fighting.
Still, I guess I'll give it a test. EQ is somewhat redundant alongside Super Power except for a few key Pokemon (though the ability to attack without lowering your stats is a very nice boon) so I'll give it a try.
I have come to the conclusion though that losing Life Orb is not an option. You NEED that power boost and without it Dragonite becomes dead weight, missing out on so, SO many OHKOs and 2HKOs it's not even funny. So from now on anyone who mentions leftovers will be shot. GOT IT?
I know that it is supposed to come in and blast stuff, but when you can't do this, why no take your time and heal? For example you use DM as the opponent's steel type comes in. The next turn you know that your opponent will switch into his Hippo (or other physical wall), to avoid losing his Steel type to EQ/Superpower, and because Hippo can wall you at -2. So why not take the time to heal the SR damage the LO recoil and the 2 sandstorm turns damage (which add up to 42%)?
A recovery move is always a nice option for something that can take hits. Salamence and Hydreigon are 2 perfect examples of similar wallbreakers that can opt to run Roost in order to stick around and dish out damage for longer periods of times. Hydreigon is especially an example since it can run the same 3 move coverage as Dragonite. Not to mention you will generally get all the coverage you need from DM, Fire Blast, and Superpower/EQ, so why not run Roost in the last slot when you have the needed coverage in 3 moves?
Well you are losing a bit of coverage by using Roost over EQ or Superpower, in particular against the popular and frustrating Tentacruel and Rain CM Jirachi if ditching EQ and the pink blobs if using Roost over Superpower. However I do agree it's worth a test at least, though I will say that Dragonite isn't taking as many hits as you seem to think it can with Superpower lowering its defense, a SpDef hindering nature, Life orb recoil AND a SR weakness. Still, worth a try.
Also I'd like to point out to anyone reading this that I have made SWEEPING changes to the OP to reflect changes to the metagame since I first made this topic as well as all the new research I have done. You might want to re-read it if you haven't already.
I agree with running both superpower and EQ. It's redundant neutral coverage, but unless you have playtested this set, you have no idea how narrowly this Dragonite achieves those notable KO's and 2HKO's. It needs all the super-effective coverage it can get to beat all the threats it is said to.
You're both forgetting the main reason to use this set is to lure in PHYSICAL WALLS. Obviously Hydreigon is not going to do that since it's primarily a special attacker. They may both break walls, but they lure in targets on the opposite end of the spectrum.
It's like saying that Terrakion is outclassed by Keldeo or something.
Alright, Jimera0, everything looks good. Just make sure to emphasize Dragonite's ability to lure physically-defensive mons, cuz otherwise I'd rather use Hydreigon.
Porygon2 goes down with Draco Meteor + Superpower after SR damage, so I wont bother listing it as a mon that troubles this set.
Provide teammates to deal with revenge killers of this set (CB Scizor, Terrakion, Landorus, Haxorus, Dragonite, Latios, Mamoswine, Thundurus, Starmie, etc), unless Dragonite is meant to be sacced after it's first action - specify this, though.
Porygon2 goes down with Draco Meteor + Superpower after SR damage, so I wont bother listing it as a mon that troubles this set.
Provide teammates to deal with revenge killers of this set (CB Scizor, Terrakion, Landorus, Haxorus, Dragonite, Latios, Mamoswine, Thundurus, Starmie, etc), unless Dragonite is meant to be sacced after it's first action - specify this, though.
I think this guy might be on to something. Maybe not a whole new set, but maybe a edit to an old set. Seriously, whoever used a classic mixed nite? .... No, without multiscale you may as well use Salamence, as it is more geared for fighting on the Sp. Attking side, but I suppose if you are under rain, I can understand why Dragonite would be preferred. Oh, I guess I should also mention Dragonite having extreme speed :6 * derp moment*, but ya know.... Salamence doesn't need that because he's fast and can run an awesome choice scarf set. Though rivaled by Hydreigon. Sorry I got kind've carried away!
Don't worry Pocket, I will emphasize the luring in physical walls :P I know very well that's the only reason you'd use this set over other dragon type wallbreakers.
And yeah, mentioning stuff that can handle revenge killers is a good idea. It's not necessary all the time as this set does frequently act as a kamikaze type killer (example: lure in the opponents Skarmory, KO it, keep attacking until you die so you can bring in Haxorus free and wreck shit up), but on less offensive teams or simply when you have multiple targets to remove with Dragonite having a couple sturdy Pokemon to switch into is a good idea. However since there are SO many revenge killers that can revenge this set (I mean you probably listed like half of them) I think I'll refrain from giving specifics and simply mention that if you plan on keeping Dragonite alive you'll want a strong defensive core that can switch into attacks from revenge killers.
And as for Porygon2, I think you might be forgetting Trace, which steals Multiscale. If you don't have rocks up and it's at full health, it'll wall you hard. Of course, if you do get rocks up then it's a non issue... in fact, NOTHING can wall it if rocks are up; even Specially Defensive Jellicent has a high chance of being 2HKO'd by Draco Meteor and Earthquake. Really the stuff it has trouble getting through only applies if rocks aren't on the field.
And yeah, mentioning stuff that can handle revenge killers is a good idea. It's not necessary all the time as this set does frequently act as a kamikaze type killer (example: lure in the opponents Skarmory, KO it, keep attacking until you die so you can bring in Haxorus free and wreck shit up), but on less offensive teams or simply when you have multiple targets to remove with Dragonite having a couple sturdy Pokemon to switch into is a good idea. However since there are SO many revenge killers that can revenge this set (I mean you probably listed like half of them) I think I'll refrain from giving specifics and simply mention that if you plan on keeping Dragonite alive you'll want a strong defensive core that can switch into attacks from revenge killers.
And as for Porygon2, I think you might be forgetting Trace, which steals Multiscale. If you don't have rocks up and it's at full health, it'll wall you hard. Of course, if you do get rocks up then it's a non issue... in fact, NOTHING can wall it if rocks are up; even Specially Defensive Jellicent has a high chance of being 2HKO'd by Draco Meteor and Earthquake. Really the stuff it has trouble getting through only applies if rocks aren't on the field.
well, okay - it's just that the primary purpose of AC is to provide teammate options to deal with Pokemon that give Dragonite problems, not simply listing counters (which goes under Checks and Counters).
There's some disagreement as to whether Earthquake or Roost should have the primary slash on the last slot, so I suggest you test DNite with Roost. At the very least slash Roost before ExtremeSpeed for now.
There's some disagreement as to whether Earthquake or Roost should have the primary slash on the last slot, so I suggest you test DNite with Roost. At the very least slash Roost before ExtremeSpeed for now.
Well I will list stuff that helps Dragonite of course, I just don't think listing all the stuff that can take the revenge killers blows would be a good use of space and could make the AC section overly long. Don't worry too much, I'll figure out a few that work especially well, but I won't be listing everything lol.
And yes I plan on testing Roost, just haven't gotten around to it yet. I'll edit the slashes now though since I'm pretty sure the ES is a pretty shitty option unless you really want the priority (and if that's the case I'd honestly go with Choice Band Dnite instead, but I suppose some people might want to cram the two roles together).
EDIT: Added some specific teammates to the skeleton just to satisfy those who don't want me to wait until I actually start writing it up to put them in. They are subject to change though.
o.k, QC had a discussion, and about 50% of us wanted Roost / ES in the 4th slot (with that slash order), with EQ sent to AC for Tentacruel and Jirachi (under Rain). If you really need those pokemon beaten, I guess you can run EQ, but considering Sandstorm (or sun) kinda fucks both of them over, you should be fine.
QC also kinda wanted Dragonite to get a clean up, since there are some sets that need to be re-tested for viability, and we were wondering if you would be willing to take Dragonite Jimera0. Please let is know if you are able / unable.
That is how things stand right now.
QC also kinda wanted Dragonite to get a clean up, since there are some sets that need to be re-tested for viability, and we were wondering if you would be willing to take Dragonite Jimera0. Please let is know if you are able / unable.
That is how things stand right now.
Well I think I'm going to test out all three in the final slot anyway, and see which gives me the best results. I'm pretty iffy about ditching EQ because although it is only for two Pokemon, those two Pokemon are absurdly common in the rain dominated metagame and are notoriously hard to kill. This Dragonite is very well suited to weatherless balance, and those two mons are HELL for weatherless balance to beat (I know from extensive personal experience... weatherless balance is my favorite playstyle). I'll give you my results after I get through testing.
I'll gladly take on the cleanup as well (hey, I actually suggest it in the conclusion of the OP :P), though I think I'll finalize this set before I get into the meat of that.
However I can go through it and edit the analysis to remove mentions of Inner Focus and Superpower needing to be used together right now though if you like. I don't want to get into the bulk of the clean up right away but god I cringe every time I see Inner Focus mentioned in the analysis XD.
Please make the set
Dragonite @ Life Orb
Ability: Multiscale
EVs: 60 Att / 252 SpA / 196 Spe
Nature: Rash
Moves:
-Draco Meteor
-Fire Blast
-Superpower
-Roost / Earthquake / ExtremeSpeed.
And ill stamp.
Dragonite @ Life Orb
Ability: Multiscale
EVs: 60 Att / 252 SpA / 196 Spe
Nature: Rash
Moves:
-Draco Meteor
-Fire Blast
-Superpower
-Roost / Earthquake / ExtremeSpeed.
And ill stamp.
Hang on I'm still testing. So far roost has proved a lot less useful than expected, primarily because as I said earlier, you're better of using the free turns from switches to blast your opponent rather than healing. I did have Roost positively effect the outcome of one game... and had the lack of Earthquake negatively effect the outcome of at least four. That's not a very good track record. I have not gotten around to testing ExtremeSpeed yet, but I suspect it's a better option than roost.
Current slash order will be Earthquake / ExtremeSpeed / Roost with Roost potentially being relegated to AC.
Seriously, if I'm saying roost is a bad idea it is. I'm a VERY conservative player so usually I'm all for healing and survivability and stuff. But it just doesn't fit well on this set.
EDIT: Just did some testing with Extreme Speed, it is definitely usable without sacrificing speed for picking off weakened threats, and allows it to check stuff like Scarfmence and Alakazam if they've already taken damage. Still prefer Earthquake in most scenarios simply because Jirachi and Tentacruel are on nearly every goddamn rain team and without EQ they can switch in with impunity on you, the one thing that this set needs to NOT happen. Safe switch ins are this sets worst nightmare, even more than revenge killers. If you're being revenge killed you've already done your job (KO'd something), if something switches in without taking major damage then you're not even doing that. Also, you can just switch out of revenge killers and come back later to blast something again later, something I do very regularly. But when you're walled there's not much hope of getting more than one kill since once they know the set they can just wall you all day.