Dragonite > Garchomp

[Mormino3]

Before I begin, I guess I should note that this is a standard OU team that I have been using on Shoddy. The objective of this team is to set up a Dragonite sweep by providing Stealth Rock/Toxic Spikes and other forms of support to assist Dragonite in it's sweep. Most of the sets and EV spreads can be found in the Smogon Strategy Dex.

At a glance:

The team:

@ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP/128 Atk/128 SDef
Sassy nature (+SDef, -Spd)
- Gyro Ball
- Stealth Rock
- Hypnosis
- Earthquake

Sets up Stealth Rock early and provides Hypnosis support to the rest of the team. I also use this to counter Weavile and Mamoswine, each being a threat to Dragonite. Other things that fall to this include: Tyranitar, Metagross SDLucario, etc.. Overall a great lead.

(M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Liquid Ooze
EVs: 204 HP/36 Spd/96 SAtk/172 SDef
Calm nature (+SDef, -Atk)
- Surf
- Ice Beam
- Rapid Spin
- Toxic Spikes

Sets up Toxic Spikes and counters Infernape and an assortment of other special threats. Rapid Spin is mainly for Stealth Rock which can make life hard for Dragonite. I used to have Sludge Bomb over Ice Beam, but I've found that Ice Beam provides me with the better type coverage.

(M) @ Choice Band
Ability: Thick Fat
EVs: 4 HP/252 Atk/252 SDef
Adamant nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Body Slam
- Earthquake
- Pursuit
- Selfdestruct

Snorlax isn't used as much as it should be. This thing puts a dent in just about anything. Body Slam goes over Return to provide the team with paralysis support. Crunch is for ghosts and Earthquake for anything else. Selfdestruct has gotten me out of a few close calls and can take out stuff like SDChomp before they can sweep.

(M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 152 HP/104 Spd/252 SAtk
Modest nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
- Rain Dance
- Hydro Pump
- Grass Knot
- Ice Beam

Ludicolo is a lot more effective then people think it is. It's very similar to Kingdra, however, most people expect a defensive set. Rain Dance boosts Ludicolo's speed as well as Hydro Pump's power. Grass Knot is for stab and Ice Beam is for Dragons as well as other grass types.

(M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Inner Focus
EVs: 176 Atk/252 Spd/80 SAtk
Hasty nature (+Spd, -Def)
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Stone Edge
- Close Combat
- Crunch

Extremely useful wall-breaker. Lucario usually runs SD or Choice Specs, so I have the element of surprise on my side. The set I'm running now takes out most of this teams threats, but I'm open to any changes.

(M) @ Yache Berry
Ability: Inner Focus
EVs: 4 HP/252 Atk/252 Spd
Jolly nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
- Dragon Dance
- Outrage
- Fire Punch
- Earthquake

Better defenses, better attack, average speed. Overall, Dragonite has better stats then Garchomp but it's lack of speed causes a decrease in use. Dragon Dance makes up for this. While it may not be as useful as Swords Dance, coupled with Outrage, it's extremely dangerous. Besides all of the above, Dragonite is very similar to Garchomp. Earthquake and Fire Punch take care of anything Outrage can't KO. Yache Berry is to protect Dragonite from those ever common Ice attacks. Even the EV spread is the same.

Speaking of the EV spread, I was thinking about using a bulkier spread. As of now, I'll be running the standard set, but if anyone can give me a reason to use a bulkier set, I most likely will.

 

[Maroon3d]

Either replace Ludicolo or Fire Punch on D-Nite as they contradict each other. Ludicolo is best to be replaced Celebii with T-Wave/Leech Seed/Grass Knot/Filler to support even more.

 

[Venom]

Since the core here is Dragonite, you have Mamoswine and Weavile covered, but I disagree with Bronzong being a SD Lucario counter, because after a SD, it OHKO's Skamory, so I don't think Bronzong will live. Don't get me wrong, Bronzong is a perfect lead, it covers so much, so keep it as the lead. CB Lax hits hard, so why not Pursuit > Crunch? It will "ensure" the Gengar and Starmie kill, by not letting them escape alive. Honestly, just go SD Lucario, so the SkarmBliss combo, eve SkarmBlissCress doesen't become a pain in the ass. A Bulky EV Spread for Dragonite would be 108 Hp / 252 Atk / 148 Spd @ Adamant, you don't need much defense.

You have problems with Physical Fighting pokemon, such as Heracross and Lucario, if you were to change Gliscor / Skarmory with Ludicolo, then the Gyarados Problems would come. So I would just put HP Electric on Tentacruel, and put Gliscor / Skarm over Ludicolo, it's your only safe bet. Or you could put a Celebi over Ludicolo, Celebi having HP Fire, but yeah, not your safe bet.

 

[blasphemy1]

I am a Dragonite lover, don't get me wrong, but Garchomp is better without a doubt. Swords Dance with the extra speed makes DD look worthless, as Garchomp 2HKOs its bulky counters and OHKOs speedy ones, like Starmie. The fact that it has STAB EQ just makes it even better, OHKOing Metagross, Steelix, and some defensive Tyranitar. Plus, it doesn't have that damn Stealth Rock weakness.

However, since I understand using favorites(if you are using DD Nite > SD Garchomp for any other reason I am confused), so lets look at the rest of the team, as that set is fine.

I would ignore the Heracross/Lucario weakness until you have some huge issues, then I would add Nidoqueen>Tentacruel, and Starmie>Ludicolo. This is not preferable however as Ludicolo destroys bulky waters AND bulky grounds who stand in Nite's way.

For countering Gyarados, HP Electric on Tentacruel is just about one of the biggest jokes ever. You must switch into an attack, which may be a predicted EQ. Without a recovery move, this will wear you down, even if it is just a Waterfall. Next, you may have to switch into a DD. Stone Edge easily 2HKOs and EQ OHKOs. Keep in mind that HP Electric will only 2HKO in return, thus resulting in a swift defeat and most likely a 6-0. This is where Ludi comes in tho, so you don't need HP Electric anyways. Keep in mind Dragonite can "revenge sweep" by coming in after they have killed something with Close Combat/Megahorn, DD, and sweep. The same can't be said about Gyarados however, so keep the pokes on the team the same.

The individual movesets however, could use some change.

Pursuit>Crunch on Snorlax allows you to destroy Gengar, Starmie, Alakazam, and Azelf without allowing an escape. Next, physical fighting moves are preferred on mixed sweepers for a reason, and even tho you do get STAB on Focus Blast, it won't do as much as you wish. Close Combat will OHKO Blissey, Snorlax, Regice, etc. Without it, Blissey can actually stall you out of PP and you will die off by LO.

 

[MetaNite]

I too love Dragonite.

The reason to use Dragonite over Garchomp is its bulkier, and has STAB on Outrage + has dragon dance. After a DD it outspeeds Garchomp. Plus it doesn't look like a walking hammer head shark...

Tentacruel is definately better at Toxic Spiking than Nidoqueen. I agree though that Starmie is better than Ludicolo in this case. It doesn't have to worry about setting up Rain Dance.

 

[blasphemy1]

I too love Dragonite.

The reason to use Dragonite over Garchomp is its bulkier, and has STAB on Outrage + has dragon dance. After a DD it outspeeds Garchomp. Plus it doesn't look like a walking hammer head shark...

Tentacruel is definately better at Toxic Spiking than Nidoqueen. I agree though that Starmie is better than Ludicolo in this case. It doesn't have to worry about setting up Rain Dance.

Well Garchomp is actually bulkier than Dragonite, with 108 HP > 91, making some difference when it comes to bulk. They have the same Defense stat, but Dragonite has a higher special defense stat, with 100, while Garchomp has 85. Dragonite takes Ice Beams better, but with Stealth Rock taking off a huge 25%, does it really even matter? This means Dragonite teams require a lot of setup, mainly in the form of Rapid Spin, while Garchomp can just sweep away.

Garchomp also outspeeds many of its counters to begin with, except Starmie, who is in fear of Choice Scarf Outrage or CB Outrage/Dragon Claw/Earthquake. SD abuses Yache Berry more easily than DD, pushing 3HKOs into 2HKOs with that extra boost. 'Nite outspeeding Garchomp after a DD doesn't mean it is better... However, Dragonite is unique and fortunately that keeps it in OU.

Nidoqueen is completely better at Toxic Spiking than Tentacruel, switching into one of many resists with its greater defense stat. Bug, Rock, and Fighting are commonly seen as physical attacks, and Tentacruel can't switch into CB Heracross or SD Lucario to save its live. Plus, Nidoqueen gets Aerial Ace and STAB EQ, which scares them away, making predicting switches and setting up a layer of Toxic Spikes easier. You do remember when Tentacruel rose up from the depths of UU/BL to become OU right? Well Nidoqueen could certainly improve to atleast BL because of it acting like Gliscor but absorbing Toxic Spikes and countering Lucario better, without Roost tho.

Lastly, Ludicolo can counter Gyarados nearly as well as Starmie, if not better. First of all, Starmie can be OHKOed by a +1 Bite, and some Gyarados can survive its Thunderbolt. Ludicolo on the other hand, can destroy it with Grass Knot while resisting water x4, resisting EQ, and only taking neutral from Ice Fang / Stone Edge / Bite. STAB Grass Knot hurts Electivire if it switches in as well. The only reason I suggested Starmie was because I suggested a better Toxic Spiker in Nidoqueen, and that means he needed both 1) A Rapid Spinner, and 2) A Gyarados counter. Starmie does both of those pretty well, plus it counters Infernape.

 

[Mormino3]

Ok, I made some of the smaller changes. Pursuit went over Crunch and Close Combat over Focus Blast.

From what I hear, I need:
1. A better user of Toxic Spikes
2. A Rapid Spinner to back this Pokemon up

Nidoqueen sounds really good. It can still clear Toxic Spikes while setting them up itself. As for a Rapid Spinner, I could always give Nidoqueen Stealth Rock and replace Bronzong with this Rapid Spinner.

I would really like to keep Ludicolo and Dragonite for two reasons, one being they're effective at what they do and two, they are among some of my favorite Pokemon.

Now, by keeping Ludicolo, this means I still have Rain Dance, which, as mentioned above, weakens Fire Punch's power. Somehow I missed this.

Now with all that said and done, here are the questions I'm left with:

1. How could I solve this Nidoqueen > Tentecruel deal? Nidoqueen sounds like an excellent option, but from the sound of it, Tentecruel wont be the only thing I'm replacing.

2. What should I replace Fire Punch for on Dragonite? Thunderpunch? Roost? With Roost, I could run a bulkier spread which sounds good.

3. I feel comfortable with two special attacks and two physical attacks on Lucario, so any suggestions on what should be replaced with what?

(And to cover some stuff up, the title of this thread is a matter of personal perference rather then fact ;p)

 

[Mormino3]

Bump. I tested Nidoqueen alone without Rapid Spin support and it failed. Any ideas?

 

[thechocolatebunny]

look at what garchomp does to you
can easily revenge bronzong with fire fang, EQ kills 2 of your pokes, SD EQ kills snorlax before it can selfdestruct, dragon claw OHKOs dragonite, getting an SD off on ludicolo is easy with yache berry, it outspeeds everything and can get SD off on everything except dragonite in which case it just kills it

 

[MetaNite]

Yeah, Tentacruel > Nidoqueen on this team, because it rapid spins away stealth rock which Dragonite is weak too.

I just swept a team with Dragonite, he is deadly and can survive a slowbro's HP Electric even after 2 calm minds, and takes minimum damage. Well, Garchomp is immune to it, but the point is that Dragonite can take heavy special damage.

Ludicolo and Tentacruel are enough to take out Garchomp in my opinion.

 

[thechocolatebunny]

adament yache chomp takes down both
Swords dance, ludicolo uses rain dance and is faster, ludicolo used icebeam, yache berry activated, garchomp OHKOs with dragon claw/outrage,
seriously? tentacruel can take down garchomp, without SD garchomps EQ is a OHKO before tentacruel can even attack

 

[RaikouLover]

Actually, Ludicolo beats Garchomp 1 on 1 if that ever happens because rain boosted Hydro Pump is a OHKO anyway and Ice Beam is not.

 

[Drybones]

If you want Bronzong to stand up to ttar or lucario I'd recommend a more physically def spread. 252 hp 252 def works on bronzong, as far as I know you don't really lose any important 1 or 2 hit kos.

 

[RaikouLover]

The standard spread is there to OHKO Gengar... thats kind of important

 

[Mormino3]

Good point. I have enough Special Defense as is.

@ everyone else: To clear some things up, I have never really had trouble with Garchomp. Yes, it usually takes about 1/3 of my team with it, but this is the case with most teams.

Edit:

@ Raikou: I'm still going to put more EVs into Defense unless you think I need the SDef EVs to counter Gengar as well. However, I'm keeping the Sassy nature.