Salamence does have the speed of a Choice Scarf 100 after 1 DD, and it isn't outsped by Scarf Haxorus after a Dragon Dance, who ignores Multiscale and simply roflstomps you to death with an Outrage.
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Dragonite
- Thread starter KurashiDragon
- Start date
Salamence does have the speed of a Choice Scarf 100 after 1 DD, and it isn't outsped by Scarf Haxorus after a Dragon Dance, who ignores Multiscale and simply roflstomps you to death with an Outrage.
Haxorus is even more uncommon than Salamence and it has no business switching into Dragonite. Sure, it can come in to revenge but you could use a lot of other mediocre Pokemon for that. Mamoswine comes to mind. Also, Dragonite can just switch out to a steel and bam, Haxorus is fucked. If you say Dragonite is using Outrage, then there are more viable things that can revenge it...
BTW, Latios is FAR more common than Haxorus and it revenge kills Salamence but not Dragonite. Basically yes, Haxorus can revenge kill Dragonite. But that's really a moot point when you consider all of the above.
scarf haxorus kills everything as long as it doenst get tricked into using outrage on a steel type...
we're not talking about scarf haxorus.
The point is that Mence's higher speed allows it to outrun revenge killers that could kill Nite, but Nite can survive some SE attacks with Multiscale. However most teams run scarfers good enough to revenge Salamence, which by default can also revenge Dragonite. Nite then has the advantage in bulk....
The point is that Mence's higher speed allows it to outrun revenge killers that could kill Nite, but Nite can survive some SE attacks with Multiscale. However most teams run scarfers good enough to revenge Salamence, which by default can also revenge Dragonite. Nite then has the advantage in bulk....
I think this is a pretty good summary of the situation. For the 2 DD theory to work, a few things need to happen:
1. No rocks on the field (& no sandstorm preferable). Multiscale has to be intact upon entry.
2. Opponent KOs one of your Pokemon. You cannot switch into attack or else it breaks #1.
3. Opponent's Pokemon on the field cannot 2HKO Dnite with multiscale. Otherwise they will just attack instead of switch.
4. Opponent does not have a counter that can OHKO Dnite with multiscale (CB Dnite, Scarf Haxorous, Specs Latios, etc.) and is either faster than Dnite after 1 DD or can survive a DD boosted attack. Also, the opponent must not have a Pokemon that is faster than Dnite after 2 DDs (CB Mamoswine). If so, you're forced out or revenged after 1 DD, thus ending the sweep.
These four condition makes 2 DDs hard to pull off, but once it happens, the sweep is almost impossible to stop. Of course, offensive DDnite can sweep with just 1 DD, but it is still outclassed by Salamence in that situation given the latter's higher speed. With team support (Espeon comes to mind), you can utilize Dnite's niche of 2 DD sweepage, which is not outclassed.
See the thing is, even after 2 DDs, I'd still rather use Salamence. With the current analysis spread for Dragonite (Adamant, 252 HP / 40 Atk / 216 Spe), it will only outspeed one additional thing after a second DD that Salamence doesn't outspeed with the first - ScarfChomp. That's the difference between 492 and 500 speed. A notable one, but that's it.
Offensively speaking, the difference is Dragonite's 690 attack at +2 against Salamence's 719 attack at +1. Jolly Salamence is thus considerably stronger and nearly as fast (again, only 1 thing will be outrunning it) at +1 as Adamant Dragonite at +2.
However, Salamence can switch into attacks throughout the match as it needs to, and does not require a perfectly predicted switch-in to a non-statusing support attack in combination with Rapid Spin. Furthermore, it isn't utterly screwed should Sand, the dominant weather, be in place. Dragonite requires considerably larger team support to function effectively compared to Salamence.
Which brings me to my next point. If we are taking team support into account (which you MUST if you want to realistically discuss MultiScale), the other team has just as much. Ferrothorn is on every team, and it doesn't even have to attack Starmie to prevent RS thanks to Iron Barbs. Forretress is fodder for everything these days. Donphan and Claydol are lol (again, Ferrothorn). But Ferrothorn isn't even the most common user of Stealth Rock, Tyranitar is. And it carries Fire Blast + Ice Beam for Ferrothorn and Gliscor. Coincidentally, those moves roast Forretress and really hurt the other two. Starmie, who can only defeat Tyranitar with Specs or LO Hydro Pump / Surf, fears Crunch or Pursuit and risks its life should it stay in on Tar. Then of course the weather turns to sand so spinning would be pointless anyway.
Tl;dr - The primary hazard setters have a favorable matchup against the spinners, making Dragonite's team support rather difficult. The main users of Dragonite's sole immunity are wary of balloon users as it is, and with TP revealing Dragonite's presence, getting that free switch could be tough. I'd rather have Salamence's consistency than Dragonite's weaker offense and ability to outpace ScarfChomp.
Multiscale is far more useful for Mix, CB, or Agility Dragonite than a DD set, because those are simply things that Salamence isn't so easily capable of matching.
Offensively speaking, the difference is Dragonite's 690 attack at +2 against Salamence's 719 attack at +1. Jolly Salamence is thus considerably stronger and nearly as fast (again, only 1 thing will be outrunning it) at +1 as Adamant Dragonite at +2.
However, Salamence can switch into attacks throughout the match as it needs to, and does not require a perfectly predicted switch-in to a non-statusing support attack in combination with Rapid Spin. Furthermore, it isn't utterly screwed should Sand, the dominant weather, be in place. Dragonite requires considerably larger team support to function effectively compared to Salamence.
Which brings me to my next point. If we are taking team support into account (which you MUST if you want to realistically discuss MultiScale), the other team has just as much. Ferrothorn is on every team, and it doesn't even have to attack Starmie to prevent RS thanks to Iron Barbs. Forretress is fodder for everything these days. Donphan and Claydol are lol (again, Ferrothorn). But Ferrothorn isn't even the most common user of Stealth Rock, Tyranitar is. And it carries Fire Blast + Ice Beam for Ferrothorn and Gliscor. Coincidentally, those moves roast Forretress and really hurt the other two. Starmie, who can only defeat Tyranitar with Specs or LO Hydro Pump / Surf, fears Crunch or Pursuit and risks its life should it stay in on Tar. Then of course the weather turns to sand so spinning would be pointless anyway.
Tl;dr - The primary hazard setters have a favorable matchup against the spinners, making Dragonite's team support rather difficult. The main users of Dragonite's sole immunity are wary of balloon users as it is, and with TP revealing Dragonite's presence, getting that free switch could be tough. I'd rather have Salamence's consistency than Dragonite's weaker offense and ability to outpace ScarfChomp.
Multiscale is far more useful for Mix, CB, or Agility Dragonite than a DD set, because those are simply things that Salamence isn't so easily capable of matching.
The usage statistics say otherwise, and you can theorymon all you want about the amount of team support required to use Dragonite but the reality is Dragonite is very easy to use and its versatility allows it to find a spot on nearly all kinds of teams.
Agree with most of your post, but just wanted to point out that I was talking about the offensive DDNite, so 252 Atk and 252 Spe. This set is truly unstopable without priority after 2 DDs. I too dislike the bulky set which I think is too weak.
Lol, Dragonite has a shiny new toy and so it gets used more, that's what I'm seeing. The same usage statistics also put Sand as the most common weather in OU, which says something about the use of MultiScale in MANY cases.
Dragonite has always been viable and relatively easy to use. I'm of the opinion that anything wit 134/100 offenses is. I was strictly comparing the bulky DD set to Salamence's flagship DDset, in which the latter is superior. Like I said, CB, Rain, and Mix sets are as awesome as ever.
I misunderstood you then. Although anything is pretty much unstoppable after 2 boosts.
As usual, Mence vs Nite comes down to playstyle and team preference.
Completely agree... if you want to go for straight up offensive dragon dance you judge it primarily on how dangerous you are after one boost, not two... There are too many factors even with multiscale that may only allow for one boost, and pretty much anything that can get off 2 boosts of something should be able to be very dangerous. Salamence outclasses for pure offensive sets in this matter.
Meh, Idk about this... they both cant switch into stealth rock whenever they please, as losing 1/4 of you life is not fun. They would both need wish support or rs @ that point. I think we would be comparing apples to oranges as well, since most sets that are purely offensive dragon dance arent switchin in and out of battle unless the plan on boosting for a sweep. Salamence can switch in and when its running intimidate, but if ur gonna go offensive dd moxie is superior, so you will lose considerable bulk. MixMence is more close to what you are talking about I think, being that it needsto switch in and out freely to regain its special attack after draco meteors.
Starmie cant switch into ferro, but if ferro is switching into him (which is undoubtedly 90% of the time), starmie is guaranteed to get off a rs, or better yet it can trick specs onto ferro and make it absolutely uselfess. I love seeing ferro ont the opponents team when I have starmie, because specs starmie puts people in a guessing game... Do u stay in and pssoibly take a specs/lo based attack? or do you switch in your wall and let it get crippled by trick? Most of the time people switch to ferro because ice beam is the only attack starmie usually carries that hits ferro neutrally. All that being said... starmie kinda plays with ferro and usually comes out on top.
Have you once in gen 5 seen a Starmie that doesnt run LO or specs? I know I have not... and I have seen a lot of starmie. The fact is that the only thing starmie fears is being revenged by scarftar. No tyranitar can switch into starmie for fear of its stabs, and scarftar is the only thing that can outspeed and pursuit it. Whenever Ttar switches into starmie after it has killed something, most starmie are then forced to hit it as hard as possible because of pursuit. Which is still... not good for ttar unless its scarfed. And as you said earlier, most ttar are the boah or support tars, so scarftar is not as prominent as it was last gen.
You said it... you definitely have to force a mismatch to spin nowadays... Still it can be done pretty easily when you take the top hazard layers into account during the team building process. I dont know why people arent using excadrill as a spinner... To me so many players have pidgeon-holed him into a ss sweeper, and never use him as a spinner... this guy to switch into damn near any major hazard layer and spin really effectively...
In a nutshell... Its like, one is more offensive and one is more defensive. I just want to point out that they really are gonna need around about the same support.
Completely agree, Excadrill is a truly underrated Dragon teammate and works amazing with Dragonite. I've used it with Salamence, Altaria as well on respective teams and it can support them via switching on Dragon-type moves at a minimum. The Mole still scares people with its powerful attacks and can force switches --> perfect op to spin away in most cases, or potentially boost up as well. For Dragonite, obviously maintaining Multiscale is a top priority in most scenarios and movesets and Excadrill helps in that regard. Steel typing often proves to be clutch, and he is one of the faster Rapid Spinners behind only Starmie, Cryogonal and Tentacruel in base speed, and packing a lot more power than the only other steel type in Forretress. Defenses are a joke but you can get around that with a scarf/ sandstorm/ baton pass.
I have a very annoying Dragonite set. It works on a stalling team, phazing and spreading paralysis.
Dragonite @Leftovers
Multiscale
Careful Nature
252 HP, 4 Def, 252 SpD
-Dragon Tail
-Thunder Wave
-Substitute
-Roost
Basically, you Thunder Wave something, substitute until a parahax, then Roost up. When you have a free turn, Dragon Tail.
Dragonite @Leftovers
Multiscale
Careful Nature
252 HP, 4 Def, 252 SpD
-Dragon Tail
-Thunder Wave
-Substitute
-Roost
Basically, you Thunder Wave something, substitute until a parahax, then Roost up. When you have a free turn, Dragon Tail.
yea. Parashuffler set is already known and popular. Sorry rules. If you really did make that yourself someone already beat you to it.
Why you should use Dragonite:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Qe9O90cD80
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Qe9O90cD80
WIN ON A STICK.
I feel inspired to make another Dragonite now...
I laughed so hard on this video...
That is my new favourite video. Dragonite = beast!
Also, Dragon Master Lance says: get all mentions of that Salamence piece of shit out of this thread, he is soo last gen. If you wanna rave about Salamence take it to Stark Mountain where it belongs B-/
Also, Dragon Master Lance says: get all mentions of that Salamence piece of shit out of this thread, he is soo last gen. If you wanna rave about Salamence take it to Stark Mountain where it belongs B-/
I think a lot of people are underestimating DD Roost Nite, which in my opinion should be aiming to get at least 3 or 4 dances under its belt before attempting to sweep, which is surprisingly not that hard. Dual Screen Espeon makes a great teammate too, since Dragonite is damn near impossible to kill with screens up, and Espy can even bounce back status or phazing moves (bar Dragon Tail), which are really the only feasible ways to stop a Multiscale Dragonite with screens up that I can think of.