Dragonite

[akarias]

The only dragonite I've faced that has been somewhat of a threat is mixed dragonite, since suicide leads aren't common anymore (especially with espeon and magic guard everywhere) leadnite is still inferior imo to salamence, who hits much harder with that first draco meteor, and has intimidate for the plethora of fighting pokes.

IMO even salamence has trouble DDancing, with scarfers like terakion and chomp, and sand-doryuuzu/rain-anything. Dragonite does not stand a chance setting up. It's only real role imo that isn't completely outclassed in the current PO metagame is mixnite because multiscale can often give dnite a chance to tank it out and retaliate, kind of like genIV swampert with less utility and much more power. Salamence still has intimidate, however, and strikes much harder with draco meteor, and thus again counters the huge number of fighters used so far this gen.

Garchomp doesn't outclass either of them as wallbreakers. He's strong, that's for sure, but with only 2 really viable sets (band and scarf, you just can't run swords dance with the power and speed of this gen imo) he's somewhat predictable and easily set up upon. After draco meteor salamence still poses a huge threat to almost all pokes with outrage and eq. Also salamence checks blaziken/rohpooshin/most kerudio/breloom all very nicely, unlike garchomp. Intimidate is still one of the best abilities in the game.

 

[Chomper The Sharptooth]

Here's the set I've been running which isn't outclassed by Salamence

ParaDancer
Dragonite @ Leftovers
Ability: Multi Scale
Nature: Impish
Evs: 252 HP / 52 Atk / 204 Spd
~Thunder Wave
~Dragon Claw/Dragon Tail
~Dragon Dance
~Roost

This was on my T-Wave team and worked wonders spreading paralysis to anything to come in. Afterwards they will be slower and roost will go before their attacks and push me into Multi-Scale range. When full paralysis activates I can set up/attack. I've tried Dragon Tail to phaze and spread more paralysis. Unless being used to beat a last poke on stall Dragon Dance usually isn't too important, if Multi-scale could have Heal Bell that is where it'd go.

 

[WingedKnight]

IMO even salamence has trouble DDancing, with scarfers like terakion and chomp, and sand-doryuuzu/rain-anything. Dragonite does not stand a chance setting up. It's only real role imo that isn't completely outclassed in the current PO metagame is mixnite because multiscale can often give dnite a chance to tank it out and retaliate, kind of like genIV swampert with less utility and much more power. Salamence still has intimidate, however, and strikes much harder with draco meteor, and thus again counters the huge number of fighters used so far this gen.

Ummm...isn't this precisely why Dragonite should be better at Dancing? Multiscale adds so much bulk that it's much easier for him to afford setting up. He may not be invincible just because of his ability, but he certainly finds more set-up opportunities than Mence does. In my experience, that Multiscale bulk, as long as Rocks are kept away, makes it easy to get off at least one DD and begin to sweep, and Leftovers and Roost allow opportunities for extra boosts.

 

[M BLADE]

Let's just say that, with 252 HP EVs and and full health Dragonite survives Terakion LO Stone Edge... with a Adamant nature.

I, personally, love to use this as a bulky Dragon Dancer, but my Draggy's main use was to basically counter/check a number of dangerous threats (lol, taking Garchomp's Outrage is priceless) using Dragon Dance when possible.

I really REALLY think that DD Nite is better than DD Mence now (Mence has the immediate power, but with all the power/speed creep we have now it isn't as great as before. While Dragonite can easily grab a number of Dragon Dances now. It also makes it easier to check (and keep checking as long as it's on full health) some threats. Intimidate can suck it >_>.

On top of it, revenge killing is harder too.

PS: My Dragonite was often used as a Doryuuzu counter. At full health it could survive 2 Rock Slides nad pop balloons with Dragon Claw to EQ this thing to hell afterwards. Pretty weird using, don't you think?

 

[WingedKnight]

I, personally, love to use this as a bulky Dragon Dancer, but my Draggy's main use was to basically counter/check a number of dangerous threats (lol, taking Garchomp's Outrage is priceless) using Dragon Dance when possible.

QFT. No more satisfying feeling than watching the Dragons come out to beat him, only to blink stupidly when they don't KO and get KO'd in return. Won't last long, 'cuz people will catch on, but wow.
It's crazy to think you can even bring him IN on certain Dragons, to counter or dance, but you're risking your neck to a crit or something there.

 

[SJCrew]

Ummm...isn't this precisely why Dragonite should be better at Dancing? Multiscale adds so much bulk that it's much easier for him to afford setting up. He may not be invincible just because of his ability, but he certainly finds more set-up opportunities than Mence does. In my experience, that Multiscale bulk, as long as Rocks are kept away, makes it easy to get off at least one DD and begin to sweep, and Leftovers and Roost allow opportunities for extra boosts.

Intimidate opens up a metric ton of setup possibilities. Keep in mind that Multiscale only works if he's at full health, which is harder to maintain because of SR. Scarfers with an Ice move still beat you. Conditions for Dragonite to setup need to be just right; he's in on something slower and not capable of OHKOing, no Rocks are up, and it doesn't threaten with status.

Salamence doesn't need any of that. He has Intimidate, speed, and direct, in-your-face power. Dragonite may be more versatile, but the more effective Dancer overall is still Mence.

 

[cHAncEman1292]

Intimidate opens up a metric ton of setup possibilities. Keep in mind that Multiscale only works if he's at full health, which is harder to maintain because of SR. Scarfers with an Ice move still beat you. Conditions for Dragonite to setup need to be just right; he's in on something slower and not capable of OHKOing, no Rocks are up, and it doesn't threaten with status.

Salamence doesn't need any of that. He has Intimidate, speed, and direct, in-your-face power. Dragonite may be more versatile, but the more effective Dancer overall is still Mence.

Well....I see it as a double edge sword between Sally and Nite. Everything with Sally is immediate. Intimate activates once upon entrance and allows setup. However, other pokemon can switch in to counter, wall or even revenge kill Sally. Though the conditions for a Nite set up are more choice, it never the less gets more chances because Multiscale can activate more than once. Its also worth pointing out that Nite doesn't really counter the other "big" dragons than he so much as just checks them. With his speed he can't expect to just switch in and take an attack then set up unless its EQ or something.

 

[Jaroda]

I personally don't feel his DD set is his best. I think Dragonite is much better suited for bulky mixed sweeping and revenging with Extremespeed. That move is too good not to have on every single set if you ask me. I am trying mixed LO with Dragon Claw, Fire Punch, Draco Meteor and Extremespeed. The mutliscale is nice for taking the first hit but trying to Roost and Leftovers back to it constantly will get you in trouble. Fire and Dragon is marvelous coverage (Heatran aside), Draco Meteor the tough walls and finish with ES. I think full support could be great too. Dragon Tail/Roost/Thunder Wave/Fire Punch to that effect or something. Make it bulky with leftovers.

 

[Pokémon Trainer R]

Let's just say that, with 252 HP EVs and and full health Dragonite survives Terakion LO Stone Edge... with a Adamant nature.

Actually, Dragonite doesn't need any EVs in HP and Defense at all to do that.

 

[HAHAdaruma]

I just want to say wow to bulky dragonite. I chucked him on my rain team today and its amazing what he can do. He survives massive hits left and right, roosts back the damage and toxics. He works well with the taunt skarmory lead that I am using because he loves dragon tailing people and forcing others to eat spikes.
The set I have been using is below but bear with the evs, I just whipped my rain team together and am not very experienced with the nuances of efficient eving.

Dragonite
Leftovers
Multiscale
Impish
EVs: 248 HP, 44 Def, 216 SpDef

• Toxic
• Dragon tail
• Roost
• ExtremeSpeed

 

[JSND]

Ononokusu will never be this gen rampardos nor does Hihidaruma. Rampardos is glass cannon in true senses but Onono is deceptively quite bulky enough to survive some atatck and hit very very hard. Hihidaruma has insane HP and efefctively 200 base attack which is undeniably the highest base attack in the whole game combined with acceptable even in this meta 95 base speed. People seems to overestimating offenisve power this gen. Its NOT. Most of the top threats is walled by Hippowdon.
That shows this meta just gen 4 meta with some more power.

Back to Dragonite. Since now you cant say "DW" dragonite anymore for obvious reason
Dragonite is now a great pokemon and on par with mence. Mence has power Nite has reliability and versatility. Nite fit on much more team and able to be used in Gen 5 PO Server "Uber" and so does salamence. Nite fit in Rain dance team betetr than mence. I must say both mence and nite is a terror duo this gen. You cant compare them now despite the same typing, nearly same stats etc. They posses the same danger level now seeing nite has scale, mence has midate. Its true that you might see nite more than mence but thats not saying mence is outclassed. Mence is as powerful only less versatile in term of fitting on a team.

 

[WingedKnight]

Alright. We've discussed to death the Dragonite vs. Salamence argument and gone around in circles. A lot of good points were brought up, but we keep coming back to the same conclusion: both are major threats which play slightly different games.
HAHAdaruma, that set actually looks pretty interesting. Different variation on the bulky Rain Nite, spreading Toxic throughout the team. If I wasn't so attached to the Dancing and Lead sets (or if I ran a Rain team) I'd definitely give it a shot.

 

[akarias]

Just...survived....speclatios Draco Meteor and KO'ed back with my own lefties' meteor...

Can I just say that again. Specs. 130 spa. super effective 140bp+stab = 2 health dragonite that can still extremespeed. Only 252 hp ev's too LOL

I'd say dragonite would make a decent bulky ddancer (I actually tried a gimick one with drifloon bpassing stockpile...lol STAB blizzards on hail teams did like 16% after 1. Anyways) But the main thing is HE DOESN"T GET HEAL BELL WITH MULTISCALE WTFF qqqqq. Safeguard doesn't help against boil over burns, toxic everywhere, will-o-wisps....ugh.

That aside I personally have never seen a ddnite sweep, and I don't see without some defense boosts how he could. Not to mention for a sweeper he just gets owned by walls like no other.Problem with bulky setupers is without a way to cure status you're actually playing against your favor with hax, which sucks enough as it is...

 

[Banryu]

Here's the set I've been running which isn't outclassed by Salamence

ParaDancer
Dragonite @ Leftovers
Ability: Multi Scale
Nature: Impish
Evs: 252 HP / 52 Atk / 204 Spd
~Thunder Wave
~Dragon Claw/Dragon Tail
~Dragon Dance
~Roost

This is a cool set, but saying that everything else Nite does is outclassed by Mence is foolishness. :\ There are plenty of things that Nite gets Mence doesn't, and they've been repeatedly mentioned throughout the thread. I really wish people would stop saying this... Salamence/Dragonite isn't better than Dragonite/Salamence outright, they're just DIFFERENT. And guess what, THERE'S NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT.

 

[WingedKnight]

Just...survived....speclatios Draco Meteor and KO'ed back with my own lefties' meteor...

Can I just say that again. Specs. 130 spa. super effective 140bp+stab = 2 health dragonite that can still extremespeed. Only 252 hp ev's too LOL

I'd say dragonite would make a decent bulky ddancer (I actually tried a gimick one with drifloon bpassing stockpile...lol STAB blizzards on hail teams did like 16% after 1. Anyways) But the main thing is HE DOESN"T GET HEAL BELL WITH MULTISCALE WTFF qqqqq. Safeguard doesn't help against boil over burns, toxic everywhere, will-o-wisps....ugh.

That aside I personally have never seen a ddnite sweep, and I don't see without some defense boosts how he could. Not to mention for a sweeper he just gets owned by walls like no other.Problem with bulky setupers is without a way to cure status you're actually playing against your favor with hax, which sucks enough as it is...

I do agree the lack of status-blockage sucks. Status is seriously debilitating to Dragonite, and Lum isn't worth replacing Lefties, especially when it only blocks once.
I disagree however with you're doubt of his sweeping capabilities. He doesn't need defense boosts if he's going to be sweeping, so long as he can avoid status he just powers through. I also think its a bit ridiculous to say walls own him like no one else, he has plenty of attack power to muscle his way through, especially after a boost or two.

 

[Jaroda]

Lum is actually VERY useful. Imagine you're at full health and your opponent tries to status you with Burn or Paralysis. You absorb the status and either KO him on the first turn, or KO on the second with ES. You're marvel scale is still in tact and they're out one pokemon, likely they're primary status inducer. Meanwhile lefties will never get you back to Marvel Scale on it's own and is only helpful in mitigating Sandstream. I think a Lum lead Nite is fantastic.

 

[KurashiDragon]

Lum is actually VERY useful. Imagine you're at full health and your opponent tries to status you with Burn or Paralysis. You absorb the status and either KO him on the first turn, or KO on the second with ES. You're marvel scale is still in tact and they're out one pokemon, likely they're primary status inducer. Meanwhile lefties will never get you back to Marvel Scale on it's own and is only helpful in mitigating Sandstream. I think a Lum lead Nite is fantastic.

Leftovers is extremely helpful if your trying to roost back to Multi Scale. I can see the benifits of Lum Berry I'm just saying.

@ Chomper The Sharptooth

ParaDancer
Dragonite @ Leftovers
Ability: Multi Scale
Nature: Impish
Evs: 252 HP / 52 Atk / 204 Spd
~Thunder Wave
~Dragon Claw/Dragon Tail
~Dragon Dance
~Roost

This set is interesting. It's not bad but it's not great. It's more of a contradiction. Why would you need Dragon Dance if your just gonna use t-wave. Why use Dragon Tail if your gonna use Dragon Dance. The most major problem with Dragonite is it's speed. Both T-wave and Dragon Dance abuse that. Meanwhile Dragon Tail has negative priority meaning most of the time, it'll be going last when that move is used. I see your set having potential but I really think you should get rid of Dragon Dance and replace it with something else.

 

[WingedKnight]

Lum is actually VERY useful. Imagine you're at full health and your opponent tries to status you with Burn or Paralysis. You absorb the status and either KO him on the first turn, or KO on the second with ES. You're marvel scale is still in tact and they're out one pokemon, likely they're primary status inducer. Meanwhile lefties will never get you back to Marvel Scale on it's own and is only helpful in mitigating Sandstream. I think a Lum lead Nite is fantastic.

Lum is epic on Leadnite. I agree wholeheartedly. Item of choice.
But don't make sweeping generalizations like "it will never get you back up". More then once I've been sweeping along and Lefties alone has fully restored me, and I think "Oh, how nice" as I continue to rip through the opponents team.

 

[Jaroda]

Well that was very fortunate for you that you could mow the opponent down with just Nite. I hope you don't think that's how it will normally go down though. That's more of an exception than anything. Yes, Lefties with Roost would be great on bulky sets. For more offensive sets though, Lum is superior. Better?

 

[WingedKnight]

That sounds right to me. Bulky Dancer prefers the perks of Leftovers recovery to status protection, though it naturally wishes it could have both.
On the attack-from-the-word-go sets, Lum is definitely superior, I agree. My Leadnite uses Lum and it has saved me on many occasions, just as Leftovers has been invaluable to my DDNite on my other team.
And when I refer to mowing through the team, I of course mean late-game. That's when Dancing Nite functions best.

 

[KurashiDragon]

That sounds right to me. Bulky Dancer prefers the perks of Leftovers recovery to status protection, though it naturally wishes it could have both.
On the attack-from-the-word-go sets, Lum is definitely superior, I agree. My Leadnite uses Lum and it has saved me on many occasions, just as Leftovers has been invaluable to my DDNite on my other team.
And when I refer to mowing through the team, I of course mean late-game. That's when Dancing Nite functions best.

I don't agree with the bulkyDD prefering Lefties over Lum Berry. It's gonna be spending it's time setting up. During that time as it stuggles to get 2 or even 3 status is very unfortunate. I cant tell you how many times I got Status'd while trying to set up. While Lefties Roost is very good for getting back to 100%, that doesnt matter in the slightest if you get paralysed or Burned. I'd say the benifits of each don't outweigh the other. Therefore they are equal in terms of use on the BulkyDD.

 

[SJCrew]

I do agree the lack of status-blockage sucks. Status is seriously debilitating to Dragonite, and Lum isn't worth replacing Lefties, especially when it only blocks once.
I also think its a bit ridiculous to say walls own him like no one else, he has plenty of attack power to muscle his way through, especially after a boost or two.

Bulky DDnite certainly isn't going to overpower fortitudinous walls like Hippowdon, especially when he can phase you while you hit back an incredibly weak DClaw. If you miss that first shot and hazards are up, it's going to be hard to get another.

 

[JSND]

Bulky DDnite certainly isn't going to overpower fortitudinous walls like Hippowdon, especially when he can phase you while you hit back an incredibly weak DClaw. If you miss that first shot and hazards are up, it's going to be hard to get another.

yup bulls eye. Remember then gen 4 hype ?
5 years ago....
Mence got Physical Dragon Claw this is epic !!!!!!!!!!!!!
after a while....
I rather use something walled by Blissey like Specsmence or the nice Mixmence than shit like DD Salamence. Who use that ? its weak, pitiful, outclassed by dragonite, and garchomp is everywhere !!!!

D claw is incredibly and surprisingly weak unless in late game. But i must say DD dragonite is still intersting and Multiscale is such a versatile ability

 

[Lee]

Not to mention for a sweeper he just gets owned by walls like no other.Problem with bulky setupers is without a way to cure status you're actually playing against your favor with hax, which sucks enough as it is...

I do agree the lack of status-blockage sucks. Status is seriously debilitating to Dragonite, and Lum isn't worth replacing Lefties, especially when it only blocks once.

Unfortunately Heal Bell and Multi-Scale are illegal so you can't fall back on that but Dragonite does still have access to a status-blocking move in Safeguard. I'm sure most people know what Safeguard does but since it has practically never been used in the history of competitive Pokemon I'll just explain it - it makes you immune to status for 5 turns.

So if you're rocking a bulky Dragonite and use Dragon Dance as the opponent switches to a bulky status inducer like Celebi or Dusclops, they're going to shit bricks when you throw up a Safeguard and they realise they're nothing but set-up fodder.

Of course there's a major drawback - you'll need to mono-attack with Dragon Claw because DD/Safeguard/Roost take up three slots. On the bright side, Steels are easily removed thanks to Magnezone and he-who-shall-not-be-named if you're playing on DW tier but, over the past few generations, I found that DDNite without Earthquake always falls a little short.

Still, it's something for you to test out if Dragonite's vulnerability to status irks you as much as the quoted posts would imply.

 

[Arc Tech]

Substitute is also an option rather than safeguard. Probably why safeguard has never been used.