Election 2008, United States

[evan]

Ancien, you misunderstand me. Obama should not attack Palin's experience. He should attack McCain's attacks on experience by saying "You just chose someone who is similarly experienced and chose them as your successor in case you die, essentially saying 'This person is ready to be president.'" That's what needs to happen and then you will find the issue of experience fading away.

Here's something that has come up on another board I engage in political debate in: The Down's Syndrome baby. What the hell? Ancien Regime, you make it sound like it's so high minded to NOT abort Trig (?) even those s/he has Down's Syndrome. Can you please point out to me where Obama says that abortions should be done for kids with Down's Syndrome? You won't find it. Using Trig (?) in this manner is despicable.

You are correct, however, that Palin's only real contribution to the McCain campaign is that she energises the base. But it comes at the cost of alienating moderates and independents. Palin is hugely pro-oil and drilling everywhere and has shown no real enthusiasm for investing in new sources of energy that are not oil and natural gas, like McCain. Energy is what she's being sold on and her only ideas on this are to repeat "Drill here; drill now!" and she means it. People in Alaska would drill in their back yards if they could. She is a great choice if Republicans think they can survive once more on just their base, but otherwise, she's disastrous.

Edit: I know I am going to regret this but I am going to respond to Deck Knight, but not on abortion. He lost all hope for any kind of actual response thanks to comparing Obama to Stalin, Hitler, and Mao.

On experience: Congratulations. She became mayor of a town of 9,000 people. Can you even imagine that? Her town wouldn't fill up the auditorium that McCain used to announce her (which I don't think was full anyway)! I don't know where you get the idea that governing the ridiculously small community beats out State Senator. Palin took on her party insiders. I appluad her for that. The Republican party in Alaska is so ridiculously corrupt that I cannot even begin to describe all the shady dealings. She should definitely be applauded for her work and getting the governorship. Alaska seems pretty happy about it, but then you just have to not spend state money on private jets and other things to make Alaskans happy. What is she known for? Suing Congress for passing legislation to protect polar bears because it would hurt oil exploration. From a party that has taken so much heat for being in the pocket of big oil this is ridiculous.

Palin has no foreign policy experience at all ("but McCain has experience!"). I don't care. The ticket is not balanced at all. Steve Doocy put it best when he said "Alaska is right next to Russia! That's foreign policy experience!"

With regards to the Obama reaction, Obama has quieted down his surrogates who had a knee-jerk reaction. He's smart. He's not going to react like you think he is. I am confident that if I can see the proper way to attack Palin on experience he will.

Conclusion: Palin excites the evangelical Christian base that Deck Knight embodies. She scares everyone else.

 

[DM]

since there's a myriad of reasons for wanting to abort.

You know what really blows? I just found out yesterday that I've been using the word "myriad" wrong for 25 years. There's never an "a" preceding it, nor an "of" following it. It's a standalone word, whereas your sentence would properly read:

"...since there's myriad reasons for wanting to abort."

This has been your daily "dude, seriously?" moment. Thanks for your time.

And don't you fucking DARE turn this into an abortion discussion.

 

[akuchi]

I would never. I know it's a futile, dogmatic debate. and yeah please, deck knight, shut the fuck up about it. mention it in passing by all means but there's no use trying to draw me into another futile argument.

also ..dude, seriously?

and oh my god Deck Knight I don't want to argue with you on abortion but
one of the first things Hitler did was ban abortion and contraceptives

 

[evan]

Wait... Dude! Seriously?

 

[Caelum]

What is she known for?

What is Obama known for? This isn't meant to be sarcastic, it's actually a serious question. What the hell has he done (besides of course being an amazing community organizer and taking the easy position of state senator)? That stupid Democratic Republic of the Congo Act? Hard hitting stuff. His ethics reform bill was a marginal accomplishment at best and only slightly modified the Lobbying Disclosure Act, hardily the sweeping ethics reform that Obama supporters proclaim. Obama was wrong on his failed Iraq War De-Escalation Act, every objective observer can see that. Really, I can't see a single thing this man has accomplished. I just want to know, what has this man done other than spout idealistic chants of "yes we can" with his glazed face zombies (please, watch his campaign rallies ... I'm not saying all Obama supporters are that way, not at all, but the ones that go to his campaign rallies and cry and faint are fucking hilarious).

 

[Ancien Régime]

Well, just to respond to akuchi, Hitler was against *individual* abortion rights, very true. But he was all for it when it came to "undesirables" (of course, since they didn't have pre-natal screening that really applied to outside the womb but its the same idea). The modern conservative rationale for banning abortion (morality/thinking it's an act of murder) is completely different from the Hitlerian rationale (population control/optimization by the State).

Hitler basically wanted German women to do nothing but produce soldiers for the State, which I'd like to think that most pro-lifers are not into...

Anyway

At this point, McCain for me is a defensive measure. Since Paul isn't getting in, or even Bob Barr, I have no choice but to go with McCain, who at least has said he will control the size of the federal government, unlike Obama who promises more spending with more tax cuts to boot, except that they'll be progressive, unlike Bush's non-progressive tax cuts (protip: the rich got more in tax cuts because they pay more, the top 1% of earners pay about 40% of the taxes, and the top 50% of earners pay 97.1% of taxes - we actually have VERY progressive taxation lol)

We really need to fix the debt, (4 trillion and counting, and that's before the bill for the entitlements come in), make hard choices on federal programs (not add more), and while I don't like that McCain seems fixated on drilling, I don't like that Obama is fixated on NOT drilling (we should be investing in post-fossil fuel alternatives either way) so I'm assuming that McCain is focusing on drilling because its what we can do right now to get more fuel, not at the expense of doing other stuff. Also, taxing the rich is silly anyway, because taxing corporations just means they'll pass the cost on to consumers.

(of course i'd like to give that full laissez-faire thing a try too, seeing that we've never really done it - 19th century america came pretty close but they had all those annoying tarriffs, government sponsored monopolies, etc)

and no deck you're wrong, because in 2016 Michael Steele will be the first black president of the United States :D (plays superman music)

 

[monkfish]

can you all stop comparing everyone you dislike to hitler

 

[Hipmonlee]

At this point, McCain for me is a defensive measure. Since Paul isn't getting in, or even Bob Barr, I have no choice but to go with McCain

Once again, the odds of your vote being decisive are so miniscule that this sort of reasoning just holds no weight. The whole point of an election is you vote for what you want. If you vote for something you dont want, then people will think that is what you do want and you will keep being offered it.

Strategic voting is nonsense. Vote for your favourite candidate please.

Have a nice day.

 

[Outlaw]

Once again, the odds of your vote being decisive are so miniscule that this sort of reasoning just holds no weight. The whole point of an election is you vote for what you want. If you vote for something you dont want, then people will think that is what you do want and you will keep being offered it.

Strategic voting is nonsense. Vote for your favourite candidate please.

Have a nice day.

Yeh, its not like you are part of the electoral college or anything.

 

[Sand Man]

aahhahahahahhahahaahahahahahha I fucking love this election so much, what a ridiculous identity politics ploy

Hillary can make up for all of her bullshit by absolutely eviscerating Palin it's gonna be great

P.S. Hip I don't think you appreciate just how different the American electoral system is from NZ/Aus. they don't have anything remotely resembling Instant Runoff there

 

[Hipmonlee]

It doesnt matter.

My vote is basically as irrellevant as anyone elses. The chances of one vote being the difference between a seat in parliament for two candidates is negligible even here, in a country with less population than some American cities and with at least 120 seats available.

I appreciate perfectly well how the American system works, and it is stupid to think that voting for a major party somehow makes your vote mean more. If anything it makes it mean much, much less.

Have a nice day.

 

[Ancien Régime]

Well, I'm thinking in terms of "which of the two I want to win", when I actually get in the booth I'll likely write in Paul, especially since I live in a rock-solid Blue state.

 

[Iraff]

DeckKnight, you so crazeh. We should be buddies.

 

[Raikou]

There is nothing feminine, nor even basically human, about killing a child in the womb. NARAL makes money off killing children in wombs and the advocacy thereof. Barack Obama has never wavered in his support for increasing the number of children who are killed in wombs. Barack Obama has never moved from NARALs anti-life line. Barack Obama is on the record as having blocked a bill that would stop doctors from leaving babies who survived late term abortions to die without medical treatment.

Feminists don't want to be labeled as feminine, they want equality in reproductive rights, pay and treatment in the workplace. Axing abortion and birth control undermine a woman's reproductive choice, especially in circumstances where she has no control (rape), while Viagra of all things is still covered by federal health insurance. Under the republicans, your tax dollars will be paying for a bunch of geriatric boners, but not birth control for teenagers. So much for republicans keeping their noses out of american lives, they want to supercede the opinions of doctors.

And if you are so against killing these zygote children, you better be picketing the fertility clinics with their armies of frozen "children" who are most likely destined for the trash can, instead of only choosing to attack impoverished teenage girls at abortion clinics. Or I suppose fertility clinics are all part of the "Big Abortion" conspiracy.

You should also know that partial birth abortions are already illegal unless there is a threat of life to the mother, and this extends to anything over 12 weeks in half the states. There are no babies being killed unless you include fertility clinics as agents of genocide.

For the idiot voters who will vote GOP because there is a vagina on the ticket, Palin is just another example of a woman who is only good enough to be #2. That's not change, women have been queens throughout history, it's king or nothing if you want change.

 

[Rinsting]

And if you are so against killing these zygote children, you better be picketing the fertility clinics with their armies of frozen "children" who are most likely destined for the trash can, instead of only choosing to attack impoverished teenage girls at abortion clinics. Or I suppose fertility clinics are all part of the "Big Abortion" conspiracy.

"Most likely destined for the trash can,"

Elaborate on that, please.:nerd:

 

[SSBM roy]

Sarah Palin VP pick is easily the most genius political gamesmanship I've seen in a while.

Well, I can't exactly disagree with you there. It is a pretty slick bit of cynicism that simultaneously reassures the right-wing base of the GOP and panders to low information voters who aren't actually aware of Palin's positions or think that electing a woman is more important than electing a supporter of women's causes. Inverting the GOP's own smear tactics to exempt Palin from some of the more obvious points of criticism is also rather interesting. Ironically, this sort of calculated gender baiting is exactly what right-wing pundits are eager to accuse the Democratic Party of.

By the way, she's also a creationist, which I suppose is good for a laugh.

 

[Great Sage]

She also opposes condoms.

 

[Raikou]

"Most likely destined for the trash can,"

Elaborate on that, please.:nerd:

During in vitro fertilization, sperm and eggs are combined and grown into embryos outside the womb before one is implanted into the woman for pregnancy and the rest discarded. By the definition of those who believe in life at conception, this is the genocide of babies but they are suspiciously quiet about fertility clinics, instead preferring to hound abortion clinics. These are the embryos proposed for stem cell research because they're otherwise being destroyed, but no, god forbid we cure degenerative nerve diseases like MS, paralysis and alzheimers to name a few.

 

[tea_and_blues]

"Also, tea and blues, can you describe to me just in what ways would a laissez-faire society (a real one, not "Bush corporatism") be tyrannical?"

Simple: In a laissez-faire society, money rules. It is literally economic anarchism; very primal, very efficient, very good at making a small number of 'prime movers' rich and healthy, but also progressively inegalitarian. The more money and power those prime movers have, the less control others have over their lives, the prime movers become a de facto Government, one that was never voted in. Follow the theory right to its core (not that we would) and millions of people - entire countries (albeit small, unproductive ones like Tonga, Tuvalu, Kiribati, Togo, East Timor) - are doomed to worsening and worsening poverty; a precious few people to more and more power. Without a reasonably-sized centralised state power that is free to legislate against certain profit-motivated business interests (or something akin in power to this - like uncentralised respresentative democracy), we risk handing over the globe to a business lobby who have proved themselves self-interested, uneducated, and unprincipled time and time again.

The States already has incredibly low voter turn-out, in part because it is so far to the Right. Voters have so little power there. Increasingly, the myth of a 'self-made American' is less possible - it will be less and less so throughout the recession, less and less again as China awakens and the US dwindles. Contrary to what DK says (isn't everything?), Palin has disempowered Alaskans because she is so beholden to business interests and because her education (as far as science and risk management are concerned) is appalling. People feel disenfranchised. If we must have Capitalism (and certainly for now we have it) then we have to make sure it is a less vicious Capitalism than it could be (and than it currently is) - laissez-faire Government is not going to help do that, nor is obsessive regulation. Better public education would be a good place to start, but to honest, American public education is monumentally fucked - it will take hundreds of years and billions of dollars to fix it - and the majority will not afford private schooling. This is why the representative governments need to maintain a socialised healthcare and education, because without good public schooling, the poor become trapped in poverty; without public health, sickness rampages among the poor and they die or they struggle to work. There are already hundreds of thousands of Americans who will work ten times harder than the roughest billionaire and never save enough to buy their own home, pay off their kids' school fees, or afford doctor-visits without at least running up a crippling debt. Laissez-faire government would leave those people even worse off.

Obama isn't a solution, he'll make things worse. But he will make them worse slower than McCain will.

 

[Garchomp of the Funk]

Sarah Palin has a thicker resume than Barack.

No, she doesn't. Being governor of a state that has a lower population than Brooklyn isn't much in the way of experience. In fact, it is certainly safe to say that one year in the United States Senate is MORE experience than one year as the governor of Alaska. And being mayor of a city pop. ~8000 that doesn't even run its own schools or police department (!) is even less impressive than being a state senator.

Barack "organized communities," by which I mean gave kickbacks to his unrepentant terrorist and Daley machine hack friends while his beloved communites were left in poverty and squalor.

Litttle bit of fearmongering there, eh? And how old was Obama in the 60's when this was happening. He was a minor! And how was he supposed to lift his "beloved communities" out of poverty when he was still paying off his student loans? He did what he could, but he isn't God.

Sarah Palin fought her own party insiders

Yeah. Clearly on destruction of the environment, or perhaps restricting civilian ownership of assault rifles.

...and became mayor of a town where everybody knows your name.

Well yes, because there 8000 people. They probably know all of each other's names too. And what did she do, exactly? That town's schools and police department were handled by other communities. Clearly she worked tirelessly on the city's fire department, since she actually controlled it.

...then became governor.

Of Alaska. Population miniscule.

Palin has regular dealings with Canadian officials.

Well I should hope so!

I mean hell, if it were Obama vs. Palin for top of the ticket, Palin would still be more qualified than Barry.

How? Your argument isn't persuasive, to say the least. Obama has inspired more voters to become a part of the political process than Palin governed as governor of Alaska. He is extraordinarily intelligent, an amazing speaker, and willing to defy his party (unlike McCain, who altered most of his positions to conform to Republican orthodoxy.)

As for you akuchi, pulling stuff about McCain from NARAL?

Okay, third trimester abortion is grisly and should be avoided at all costs. But claiming that "life begins at conception" is arbitrary: perhaps we should declare that all female sex cells have the right to be born as children, and imprison any women who deny these "unborn children" the right to exist.

Please, the Democratic Party is in the pockets of Big Abortion.

Clearly, the Republican party is not in the pockets of Big Oil, or Big Tobacco, or Halliburton, or Big Coal, or huge American corporations that have outsourced thousands of jobs to Asia just to make a few rich men richer. And clearly the current Republican ideology is not at all influenced by a small subset of people who believe that the Earth is only 4000 years old, and who misinterpret their own sacred document to justify horrible abuses. Its the black hole at the center of the universe calling the kettle black.

Obama himself supports infanticide.

Infanticide:
1 the crime of a mother killing her child within a year of birth.
• the practice in some societies of killing unwanted children soon after birth.

Your statement is a blatant lie. Destroying a few cells that are less intelligent and capable of feeling pain than a fly is not infanticide. Whereas sending our men in uniform to die in Iraq, a country that posed no threat to the United States whatsoever, just to make a few oil companies richer--that's worse that infanticide, much less abortion. John McCain and Sarah Palin support continuing this conflict indefinitely--and the number of thinking human beings who certainly feel the pain of the loss of a limb, or the loss of a family member is certainly greater that the number of third trimester infants who will be killed by abortion in the next fifty years.



Barack Obama has never wavered in his support for increasing the number of children who are killed in wombs.

Please actually listen to what he has to say. Barack Obama is strongly in favor or reducing unwanted pregnancies. Your statement is, once again, a blatant lie.

As I said in an earlier post, Socialism is a religion.

Barack Obama is not a socialist. He is a liberal. There IS a difference! And Supply-side Economics must be a religion too, because it clearly has always failed to benefit anyone but the richest 5%. So is continuing the war in Iraq. So is expanded drilling for oil in the United States, which will produce no new oil for AT LEAST TEN YEARS, and will not even affect oil prices significantly, because oil is bought and sold on a global market.

It has to be, because in order to believe in it, you have to have faith not just without proof of success, but with overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

Please apply this to your own political beliefs. It will be telling.

Sarah Palin is the kind of woman who scares the **** out of feminists.

For good reason. Anyone who supports George W. Bush's failed policies scares me, and I'm not an ultrafeminist (much less a women).

Sarah Palin is the next Vice President of the United States, and in 2016, will be the first female President of the United States.

If this actually happens, America will be irrelevant in global politics, even more bankrupt than it is now, and probably controlled by China. And in 100 years, almost all humans will be dead, due to the consequences of global warming and pollution. Enjoy your dream. It sounds awful to me. There's a reason that some liberals think that people like you are sadistic fascists who want to turn America into a Big Brother state inhabited by uneducated evangelical high school dropouts. Don't worry, at least the illegal immigration problem will be solved because no Mexicans will want to come here at all!

With all due respect (virtually none),
A patriotic and concerned American.

 

[Caelum]

I stopped reading your post after I read " In fact, it is certainly safe to say that one year in the United States Senate is MORE experience than one year as the governor of Alaska. " . That proved to me you have no fucking idea what you are talking about. Being in the Senate is a joke compared to being a governor. Governors make decisions on every issue, allocate budgets, resources, lead the states National Guard, and essentially manage EVERYTHING. Senators get to choose which votes they vote on (and Obama's senate record has been thin since he doesn't show up for over 45% of his votes ... ), spend most of the time giving speeches, and run around Washington probably fucking interns. If you think being a Governor is less than that of a Senator you have no idea what you are talking about. Take a class is government or even just watch the news before you go running your mouth about a Senator having more experience than a Governor.

 

[tea_and_blues]

I stopped reading your post after I read " In fact, it is certainly safe to say that one year in the United States Senate is MORE experience than one year as the governor of Alaska. " . That proved to me you have no fucking idea what you are talking about.

Oh, so if someone is wrong on one point, they must be wrong in general? Very shallow argument, Caelum. You shot yourself in the foot if you wanted to come off as superior...

I think you're drastically playing down the role of a senator to score points, although I agree with the gist of your post.

 

[Caelum]

Oh, so if someone is wrong on one point, they must be wrong in general? Very shallow argument, Caelum. You shot yourself in the foot if you wanted to come off as superior...

I think you're drastically playing down the role of a senator to score points, although I agree with the gist of your post.

lol. Why should I continue reading something if the very first point is wrong? If I published a scientific paper and my Abstract was factually incorrect would anyone continue reading it? Of course not. If your doctor came up to you and stated that the flu was a bacteria, would you continue to listen to that doctor? It's not a shallow argument because it's not an argument, it's just a perfectly natural response of anyone after hearing something obviously wrong.

 

[tea_and_blues]

Amateur debate on a Pokemon site does not a peer-reviewed journal make.

And incidentally, any thorough researcher reads incorrect material with a good critical eye, they don't just stop and say, "Oh shit, there's a figure wrong here, OMFG EVERYTHING THIS PERSON SAYS IS GOING TO BE WRONG!!" It's not a 'natural response', it's a lazy one.

By the way, Obama has answered some questions from the scientific community, rather well, all considered: http://www.sciencedebate2008.com/www/index.php?id=40

 

[Caelum]

Amateur debate on a Pokemon site does not a peer-reviewed journal make.

And incidentally, any thorough researcher reads incorrect material with a good critical eye, they don't just stop and say, "Oh shit, there's a figure wrong here, OMFG EVERYTHING THIS PERSON SAYS IS GOING TO BE WRONG!!" It's not a 'natural response', it's a lazy one.

Incidentally, Obama has answered some questions from the scientific community, rather well, all considered: http://www.sciencedebate2008.com/www/index.php?id=40

Wow, way to read what I wrote completely wrong. Being incorrect on a figure and stating something grossly inaccurate are entirely different and if you can't distinguish that than I apologize. If I opened a journal and the first sentence read "The orbits are the way they are because strings are attached to the planets and a man in the sky twirls them around" I wouldn't read it. If it said "Gravity falls at 9.86 m/s^2" I would read it despite it being inaccurate. I'm sorry you can't tell the difference.

Also, those answers from Obama on science were so prewritten it was hilarious. He could have at least tried to make it sound like he actually thought of the answers himself on the spot. I was disappointed the moron wasn't asked about MMR vaccine controversy since he is one of the morons who believes some vaccines cause autism even though most studies discredit this and those that don't are largely inconclusive. I'll have to look up later whether or not John McCain believes that bullshit as well though.