The only way I can see Gems in a role they aren't outclassed in is by boosting coverage moves on a lure to take out a would-be counter. Not running calcs and just off the top of my head, running a Fire Gem on Starmie so it can OHKO Ferrothorn with HP Fire would be a good example. You maintain your ability to switch moves unlike Choiced pokemon, which lets you continue your sweep; the extra power for that one move over Life Orb is considerable too. You do lose a lot of long-term power, but if a team has a lot of issues with one pokemon in particular, it may be worthwhile.
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Elemental Gems and their effects in competitive battling
- Thread starter alexwolf
- Start date
Thie thing with the Gems is that they are single-use. Like berries, they're gone after one use. If you look at today's metagame, berries are pretty much gone. Petaya or Salac berries and such are no longer being used, and only the odd Outrage-user has a lum berry. Tyranitar's analysis lists Cople Berry as an option, but very few people actually use it.
I feel that the Gems are pretty much the same. The fact that they're one use, makes them very hit or miss. Use the gem, opponent switches, gem's gone. Just like berries: activate your Salac too soon and you suddenly have no item at all.
Obviously some pokémon like not having items, most notably pokémon that want to use Acrobat a lot or pokémon with Unburden.
The Acrobat-group is fairly limited. The best ones are arguably Crobat, Gliscor and Tornadus. They benefit from their natural speed and power to abuse Stab no-item Acrobat. We all know how dangerous these are.
Unburden-Pokémon suffer from the double-horrible-timing. If they use their Gem, but the opponent sends out a counter or wall, you wasted not only your item, but also your speed-boost. On top of that, the pokémon that actually get Unburden aren't the best.
That doesn't mean that any of these are unusable or bad, it just makes them very hard to use, and often you will find yourself rather going for a safe option.
I feel that the Gems are pretty much the same. The fact that they're one use, makes them very hit or miss. Use the gem, opponent switches, gem's gone. Just like berries: activate your Salac too soon and you suddenly have no item at all.
Obviously some pokémon like not having items, most notably pokémon that want to use Acrobat a lot or pokémon with Unburden.
The Acrobat-group is fairly limited. The best ones are arguably Crobat, Gliscor and Tornadus. They benefit from their natural speed and power to abuse Stab no-item Acrobat. We all know how dangerous these are.
Unburden-Pokémon suffer from the double-horrible-timing. If they use their Gem, but the opponent sends out a counter or wall, you wasted not only your item, but also your speed-boost. On top of that, the pokémon that actually get Unburden aren't the best.
That doesn't mean that any of these are unusable or bad, it just makes them very hard to use, and often you will find yourself rather going for a safe option.
Expanding on my note about Covet Normalize Delcatty (woo!) in my previous post, could a gem be used in conjunction with Thief? I can imagine a Weavile revenge-KO some odd dragon with his Ice Gem-boosted Ice Shard (or Ice Punch if it wants to hit through Multiscale/Yache Berry), then use Thief to hassle whatever comes in afterwards. If you slump to receive a Choice Band, or perhaps Leftovers, all the more joy for you. Surviving long enough to benefit from your newly acquired item is a rarity, but at least the opponent doesn't have it anymore.
Or you could use Dark Gem to boost Thief from the get-go. Thief users don't tend to carry anything to begin with, so packing an item that vanishes as you move couldn't hurt. The boost you get is by no means impressive, but it's better than nothing.
Thinking about it, I want Technician Weavile. It would suit Weavile perfectly. It moves in the shadows, is extremely fast, and prefers to attack from behind. It follows its prey through the icy forests, then hides among the treetops and jumps down as the prey passes underneath. A quick swipe with its razor-sharp claws, and the unlucky traveller is down for the count. Then the Weavile disappear into the forest again, carrying whatever food they can find among his baggage. That's quite techy, if you ask me.
Or you could use Dark Gem to boost Thief from the get-go. Thief users don't tend to carry anything to begin with, so packing an item that vanishes as you move couldn't hurt. The boost you get is by no means impressive, but it's better than nothing.
Thinking about it, I want Technician Weavile. It would suit Weavile perfectly. It moves in the shadows, is extremely fast, and prefers to attack from behind. It follows its prey through the icy forests, then hides among the treetops and jumps down as the prey passes underneath. A quick swipe with its razor-sharp claws, and the unlucky traveller is down for the count. Then the Weavile disappear into the forest again, carrying whatever food they can find among his baggage. That's quite techy, if you ask me.
Adaptability Adaptability Adaptability Adaptability!
Seriously, Weavile's movesets consist of Night Slash|Ice Punch/Ice Shard|Pursuit/Swords Dance|Low Kick. 150 BP Ice Punch and 80 BP Ice Shard are better than 112.5 BP Ice Punch and 90 BP Ice Shard.
But Weavile isn't known to change its cellular structure to adapt to its surroundings. It's an ice ninja, see! Technician would make sense, even. Weavile is all about precision, speed and endurance. If Persian gets it, Weavile thoroughly deserves it.
Sorry to stray off topic. I guess extensive "How I wish..." talking isn't looked mildly upon here.
Sorry to stray off topic. I guess extensive "How I wish..." talking isn't looked mildly upon here.
The only time I've truly thought that a Gem was the absolute best item to use on a Pokemon was when I used the following set in OU:
move 1: Shell Smash
move 2: Aqua Jet
move 3: Waterfall
move 4: Stone Edge
item: Rock Gem
ability: Sturdy
nature: Jolly
evs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Beautiful and simple set - use with Rain support, make sure the field is clear of hazards and boost on basically anything thanks to Sturdy. Waterfall becomes super-strong and +2 rain-boosted Aqua Jet picks off most priority users or Scarfers.
The Rock Gem is the final part of the puzzle - because most of his sweeping was done at 1HP a Life Orb would have obviously been ridiculous and other boosting items were too weak. I had also found that Stone Edge was only usually called upon once during an average sweep, with his boosted Water attacks usually being enough to take out most of a weakened team. But still, Stone Edge would always fall short against bulky waters and grass types and it just started to feel like he required way too much support to sweep effectively.
But then Rock Gem came along:
+2 Rock Gem Stone Edge vs 252/252+ Rotom-W = 97% - 114% (OHKO after SR)
+2 Rock Gem Stone Edge vs 252/220+ Celebi = 78% - 92% (33% chance to OHKO after SR)
+2 Rock Gem Stone Edge vs 252/252+ Politoed = 97% - 114% (OHKO after SR)
+2 Rock Gem Stone Edge vs 252/252+ Jellicent = 95% - 112% (OHKO after SR)
+2 Rock Gem Stone Edge vs 252/252+ Vaporeon 91% - 107% (OHKO after SR)
Probably one of my favourite sets in BW, it's inexplicable that it never made it into the analysis but bleh - try it out!
The calcs are amazing, allowing Carracosta to bypass its usual counter that blocks its path from a potential sweep. Its still annoying that Carracosta cannot break past Ferrothorn, though.
Head Smash / Acrobatics Archeops is also an intriguing set, Acritter and shrang. Even if it hits Defeatist range, those 2 STAB moves would still pack a huge load of punch, especially if you sneak in a Hone Claw boost on a switch or something. Alternatively, Defeatist Archeops can Endeavor something into Head Smash / Acrobatics KO range. Or it can simply be relegated to a U-turn scouter. Yea, Archeops is one of my gimmick fantasies, too, shrang, lol!
You are completely correct. Here I am, looking like a complete doofus...
Anyway, this doesn't change a lot about the whole thing, but it's stupidly my bad.
This is actually a very good suggestion!
I did some calcs and HP Fire boosted by Fire Gem always ohkoes if Ferro switches in on Hydro Pump or Ice Beam with SR in play 100% of the time!
I will put the set in the OP as soon as i can!
Pocket said:
yeah, that's pretty much an inescapable fact. However, it's worth noting that +2 Rock Gem Stone Edge does an avg of 50% to standard Sassy Ferrothorn. Stone Edge also isn't a contact move so it bypasses Iron Barbs. No doubt he's a solid counter but a sweeper is judged by how easy it is to eliminate or weaken his counters and Carracosta scores highly in that regard because it's pretty easy for a Rain team to wear down Ferrothorn over the course of a match through boosted Water attacks, Scald/WoW burns or SubCharge Magnezone. There are worse things to be walled by, basically.
I can definitely see Gems rising in the 1v1 metagame. You have insane power on sets like the following except without Choicing yourself.
Hydreigon:
-Draco Meteor
-Dragon Pulse
-Flamethrower
-filler
Latios:
(same as above really)
-Draco Meteor
-Dragon Pulse
-Flamethrower
-filler
Latios:
(same as above really)
I can see everyone using Dragon Gem in the 1v1 meta now. Guess what?
Mamoswine:
-Icicle Crash
-Ice Shard
-Earthquake
-Stone Edge
Cloyster:
-Icicle Spear
-Ice Shard
-Shell Smash
-Rock Blast
Mamoswine:
-Icicle Crash
-Ice Shard
-Earthquake
-Stone Edge
Cloyster:
-Icicle Spear
-Ice Shard
-Shell Smash
-Rock Blast
Scizor:
-Bullet Punch
-Superpower
-U-Turn
-filler
-Bullet Punch
-Superpower
-U-Turn
-filler
What about using a dark gem with a pursuit user. Using a gem doubles the moves' base power( iirc ) so with your opponent switches, pursuit goes from 40 to 160, not including STAB and possible super effective to boot. Something like this:
Scizor
Dark Gem
Adamant
252 Atk / 252 Spe
- Pursuit
- U-Turn
- Bullet Punch
- Superpower
Use U-Turn to make your opponent think your scarfed. Later in the fight, your opponent needs to switch due to a bad type mismatch and that's when you pursuit them as they try and run.
Scizor
Dark Gem
Adamant
252 Atk / 252 Spe
- Pursuit
- U-Turn
- Bullet Punch
- Superpower
Use U-Turn to make your opponent think your scarfed. Later in the fight, your opponent needs to switch due to a bad type mismatch and that's when you pursuit them as they try and run.
Not exaclty same as above; Latios has access to Trick which allows him to steal a new item.
On the second thought: You are still right, because Hydreigon has Thief. Because they will loose their gems anyway there is little reason not to consider stealing items.
The gems have much more utililty in Battle Subway, Doubles battles, and battles that aren't too long. The main use for them is for Unburden users, and Acrobatics users.
Another use for them is If you want to a certain pokemon to get past its checks, and they would come in handy if, the 1.5 boost allows KOes, that a Life Orb wouldnt be able to do. I'd say they are viable, but not as viable as many of the others items like Leftovers, Choice Items, and the such.
Another use for them is If you want to a certain pokemon to get past its checks, and they would come in handy if, the 1.5 boost allows KOes, that a Life Orb wouldnt be able to do. I'd say they are viable, but not as viable as many of the others items like Leftovers, Choice Items, and the such.
I have experimented with this set:
Gyrados w/ normal gem
Dragon Dance
Giga Impact
Waterfall
filler
I was having trouble with rotom switching in to gyrados so I gave it giga impact which ohkos it with normal gem. It works as a good surprise ko. I have found it also works well against toxic politoed.
Gyrados w/ normal gem
Dragon Dance
Giga Impact
Waterfall
filler
I was having trouble with rotom switching in to gyrados so I gave it giga impact which ohkos it with normal gem. It works as a good surprise ko. I have found it also works well against toxic politoed.
IMO, Plates are generally more useful than Gems in the long run. While the increase in power is 20% rather than 50%, you can abuse it more often throughout the match, and the overall damage output from using a plate is more than that of a Gem. Unless having a consumable item ups potency of your Pokemon, in the case of Acrobatics users, or you're going for a specific KO, such as +2 Terrakion Rock Gem Stone Edge against Gliscor, there really is no need to use it over a plate. Granted, Life Orb is generally the superior item over a plate unless you're trying to fake a Choice item, such is the case with SD Iron Plate Scizor.
Guys we already know that the gems are inferior to other offensive items most of the times. I mentioned in the OP that i want us to discuss the positive aspects of the gems, were they are not outclassed, and not their negative. Would there be a point to make this thread if everyone posted how LO and other offensive items are better except if you want to activate certain moves and abilties or if you are luring a target?
I have already explained the positives and the purposes of the gems! What i want from you is suggest and discuss about new sets that take advantage of those positives or even new purposes that i haven't mentioned...
I have already explained the positives and the purposes of the gems! What i want from you is suggest and discuss about new sets that take advantage of those positives or even new purposes that i haven't mentioned...
Honestly, like I've said the only thing I can think of is faking a Choice item, which is better done by a plate except in certain instances. I guess an example would be SubSD Terrakion.
Ah i forgot to put this as a positive for the gems. Thx for reminding! I don't remember if you mentioned them but other positives of gems are activating Acrobat and Unburden and helping offensive pokes to lure and kill counters.
Added the faking item part as a positive of the gems in the OP and also slashed Substitute along with Rock Polish on Terakion. Finally i put both Hitmonlee and Terakion in the list with all the Gem abusers.
EDIT: Also added small descriptions for each set in the list.
Smogon said:
No, Harvest does not recover Elemental Gems. However, the move Recycle can bring consumed items back. Unfortunately, most of the Pokemon who get this move have little use for an Elemental Gem.
