Entry Hazards - Are They Broken?

[Curtains]

I don't think I missed any context here, but... a defensive 'mon weak to SR can't do its job as long as SR is on the field. Rotom-H, who could normally taken on most of what Sun can throw at it, can't do so when it's taking 25% every switch in. This is also the case for Zapdos, Togekiss, etc... Similarly, speedy revenge killing Pokémon like Weavile, Aerodactyl, and Scolipede. The Pokémon they want to counter can simply switch out and wait for SR to take its toll.

First off in the realm of BW2 OU rotom-H is objectively not a good defensive pokemon with or without SR. If it still had its ghost typing them it would be great but fire electric really doesn't have any brilliant resistances. Rotom-W is the premier defensive appliance for a reason. It checks the mammoth threat of boosted rain attacks and hits sand hard at the same time. Yes rotom-h can check sun... Why is SR stopping it? If it checks sun so well shouldn't 25% + lefties recovery be a sufficient trade off? It can check sun.. You just don't want to work to do it. You want everything to be automatic and archaic like we are playing single player pokes and that is not how competitive gaming works. Yes those metagames without SR are good but the number of pokemon have more than doubled. The amount of strong pokemon have simply increased out of control to the point where we can't ban everything. This is the basis of the problem with the pro ban side. We talk about this push and pull and having a counter for everything . Well gamefreak freaking gave us everything we needed to have to make this possible in the move SR.

Also, you mentioned how SR helps defense. Well, yeah, its so good, it helps quite literally every playstyle. However, SR on the field hurts defensive play more than any other. "Oh, look, Darm's now at 75%. Now to hit it with... Oh, crap." SR helps plenty of Pokémon hit their 2HKO/1HKO benchmarks. Stall isn't aiming for those benchmarks, its hoping that the opponent will miss them. Simply from my experience with Stall in RU, SR hurts more than helps. Yeah, Moltres is at 50%. Now, it'll Roost because, since this is a stall team, I can't carry six pokemon able to either outspeed and kill it at 50, or kill it at 100.

What? So what you are saying is that the reason SR harms defense (stall teams) is that stall teams don't have any moves to hit offensive pokemon hard so defensive pokemon have to just sit there and look at a weakened pokemon? What..... You have never seen a good stall team before have you?

SR is 'unstoppable', even if it isn't going on a rampage with the power it holds

SR is not a pokemon. So treating it like it is is doesn't really help your argument. Besides it is really easy to get rid of SR. Not all teams have a ghost so if you can remove the rocks once then that is pretty much the end of rocks for the game. If you guess that he/she will come in with a ghost you can blast it for the 1-2hko. Again the team preview helps with this.

How many times have you played without SR on your opponents field? You mentioned you once laddered to 1700 without it, so you must know (also, this isn't much of an achievement, I hope you realize). Don't you play differently when you don't have it up?

No I don't but when my opponent has rocks up I now have the additional option of calculating wasting a pokemon for death fodder. Losing a pokemon on my opponents SR to get switch advantage has actually won me alot of games. As far as me playing differently when I don't have rocks the only difference is I wish I had them up to make certain threats more manageable. For instance I was playing against a thundurus-t without rocks up and my super effective attack took him to under 25% and didn't kill him. Then he proceeded to sweep the remaining 3 pokemon on my team easily because I didn't have rocks up. I don't really get the point of your example about the skarmory and the gyarados and tyranitar. I advise you to maybe play more and pick up some tips from other users about battling.

 

[Electrolyte]

I didn't really mean to bring up an insulting discussion with my last post, so let's please keep it civilized. v.v

Anyway, I don't really understand your logic, Kidogo. My last post said 'keep Stealth Rock because it keeps certain Pokemon in check'- and you answered back by saying that it also makes some Pokemon unviable, and therefore it should be suspected (if you meant something different, please clarify.) But how does nearly everything else in OU not do that exact same thing? Sure, Stealth Rock is a big reason why certain Pokemon, such as Charizard or Moltres, are not more regularly used in OU, but that's not the only reason- Charizard really just sucks stat-wise, is walled quite easily because it lacks power, and can be revenge killed easily as well because it's slow. Rotom-F is pretty much crushed by the mere existance of Rain and Sand teams, making its job of countering the less common Sun team not worth enough to secure it a spot in OU. The same thing applies for nearly every Pokemon you listed that is harmed in some way by Stealth Rock.

Even if you argue that Stealth Rock is the major thing that is keeping those Pokemon in the lower tiers, that by itself doesn't justify a suspect testing either. After all, already existing OU Pokemon each play a part in determining the usage of Pokemon in the tiers below them, many even more than Stealth Rock does. Heatran is a prime example of this- it walls many Sun sweepers flat, forcing many Sun sweepers down into the depths of UU and RU. You can't request that we ban Heatran just because it does this- the ability of different Pokemon and moves to push other Pokemon and moves down into lower tiers is something that should be expected and anticipated in a 'healthy' metagame. The purpose of OU isn't to incorporate every single Pokemon in a single, popular, playable tier. If you're going to suspect everything that makes something else unviable, you're going to be suspecting nearly every Pokemon, move, and ability from OU down to RU. OK, Stealth Rock may make some Pokemon unusable, but that's just the way it is- and just the way it should be.

 

[Gogeta]

For me, all this theorymonning is completely irrelevant. We don't know what a metagame without SR would be like unless we test for a metagame without SR. Smogon's philosophy is largely scientific; we take a hypothesis, eg, "Factor X is broken", and we test it in a controlled environment to find out. Sure, Volcarona may be broken without SR, but we don't know until we test it. So why don't we test it?

One of the arguments against a test of SR is that we don't have time, and that we should leave it until 6th gen. But surely the opposite is true? Currently, BW2 OU is as balanced as it probably can be considering the huge power creep 5th gen brought. Maybe Landorus could be tested, but other than that, it's pretty stable. That gives us 5 whole months to test SR. We'd certainly have the time to complete a thorough test, and would probably have a couple of months to spare if we desperately needed to test something.

Furthermore, with the influx of new pokemon in 6th gen, and maybe even new gameplay mechanics, we will not have time to be worrying about SR when X&Y hit the stores. That is why I feel we should do a test, and do it now. If we find SR to be broken, then we can ban it and give ourselves at least some time to clean up the fallout before X&Y come out. If we find it to not be broken, then no harm done, we've learned something, and we've satisfied a lot of people.

 

[DrunkDemon]

First off in the realm of BW2 OU rotom-H is objectively not a good defensive pokemon with or without SR. If it still had its ghost typing them it would be great but fire electric really doesn't have any brilliant resistances.

What.
Make that 4x Ground weakness an immunity and you have a pretty potent type combination. This allows it to at least check: Scizor, Celebi, Heatran, Jirachi, Landorus-T, Landorus, Ferrothorn, Garchomp, Skarmory, Mamoswine, Forretress, Thundurus-T, Ninetales, Volcarona(if you want to run Thunder Wave at least), Venusaur, Tornadus, and Jolteon.
If that isn't a useful set of Pokemon to check I don't know what is.

And yes Stealth Rock does make a difference. Maybe if it had Recover it wouldn't be that big of a deal, but I really doubt you've played with Rotom-H if you think 6% healing per turn is enough to offset 25% damage switching in. It's supposed to act as a bulky pivot. How is supposed to do that when getting forced out is practically a death sentence? Just as an example,

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Rotom-H: 218-257 (71.94 - 84.81%) -- 68.75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

So yes it's a big deal. This isn't really a comment on Stealth Rock's balance, but that comment was so ignorant I felt like I had to say something.

PS: It also doesn't help that several Pokemon that force Rotom-H out, like Terrakion, can use Stealth Rock.

 

[Curtains]

Besides semi checking scizor, celebi and ferrothorn I don't see how H is any better than W in OU. Rotom- W can check all the rest of those pokemon and not have its secondary stab weakened by rain . Also W can hit tyranitar really hard... Which is important if it doesn't want to become trapped or out predicted for a Stone edge KO. Also overheat lacks the consistency in power of hydro pump when it comes down to getting the final kill late game. I don't think rotom-H is terrible. I think rotom-h can function as a solid offensive pivot even with SR. it can pain split the extra damage and hit hard with its two STABs. I just don't think it works good as a pure defensive pokemon in this metagame. The main reason it is not used is because of rain and players not being able to see a reason to use it over W. Looking into it now I see why. W is clearly better defensively and offensively. I also don't get your "PS". Yes we know terrakion gets SR.

 

[George Eliot]

For me, all this theorymonning is completely irrelevant. We don't know what a metagame without SR would be like unless we test for a metagame without SR. Smogon's philosophy is largely scientific; we take a hypothesis, eg, "Factor X is broken", and we test it in a controlled environment to find out. Sure, Volcarona may be broken without SR, but we don't know until we test it. So why don't we test it?

One of the arguments against a test of SR is that we don't have time, and that we should leave it until 6th gen. But surely the opposite is true? Currently, BW2 OU is as balanced as it probably can be considering the huge power creep 5th gen brought. Maybe Landorus could be tested, but other than that, it's pretty stable. That gives us 5 whole months to test SR. We'd certainly have the time to complete a thorough test, and would probably have a couple of months to spare if we desperately needed to test something.

Furthermore, with the influx of new pokemon in 6th gen, and maybe even new gameplay mechanics, we will not have time to be worrying about SR when X&Y hit the stores. That is why I feel we should do a test, and do it now. If we find SR to be broken, then we can ban it and give ourselves at least some time to clean up the fallout before X&Y come out. If we find it to not be broken, then no harm done, we've learned something, and we've satisfied a lot of people.

I agree with this 100%. I personally think theorymonning makes it obvious that SR is broken, but clearly a fair proportion of people disagree so I want to see a test happen as soon as possible.

 

[Lady Alex]

One of the arguments against a test of SR is that we don't have time, and that we should leave it until 6th gen. But surely the opposite is true? Currently, BW2 OU is as balanced as it probably can be considering the huge power creep 5th gen brought. Maybe Landorus could be tested, but other than that, it's pretty stable. That gives us 5 whole months to test SR. We'd certainly have the time to complete a thorough test, and would probably have a couple of months to spare if we desperately needed to test something.

Furthermore, with the influx of new pokemon in 6th gen, and maybe even new gameplay mechanics, we will not have time to be worrying about SR when X&Y hit the stores. That is why I feel we should do a test, and do it now. If we find SR to be broken, then we can ban it and give ourselves at least some time to clean up the fallout before X&Y come out. If we find it to not be broken, then no harm done, we've learned something, and we've satisfied a lot of people.

This is so utterly true, and has been talked about way earlier in the thread. At least 40% of the voters believe that at least SR is broken (maybe more. There were a very large number of voters who voted "no" before any anti-SR discussion was even made), so I don't see why a suspect test would be off the table for consideration.

The idea that we don't have time or that a test is a waste of time is absurd. I recollect someone saying that the time spent on a suspect test for SR could be spent on something more productive. There's been nothing "productive" done in OU for months. The last suspect test was February, so I seriously doubt that testing SR is going to be a drain on our precious time that we've been using so diligently. It would be nice if the council would at least share their thoughts on whether they would even consider a test, and why they would oppose one if they're against the idea.

 

[x42bn6]

If anything, a suspect test will be interesting.

I think a lot of focus is on the OU flyers and 4x weak Pokémon - but I don't think it's just about them. There's other stuff in BL and UU that could be very interesting in a Stealth Rock-less tier - Staraptor, Victini and Xatu for starters.

The metagame today could well be similar to the problem associated with hill climbing - where the metagame seems desirable now, but banning Stealth Rock will result in some instability and sadness - but sorting it out could result in an even better metagame in the end. I'm personally partial towards considering the metagame as a whole rather than a single factor - if banning Stealth Rock and balancing that results in a "better" (deliberately-vague) metagame, then we should go for it.

Conceivably, you could ban multiple things in one go, maybe with some quick-bans themselves on the suspect ladder - and vote on multiple things in the end. For example, if you find Volcarona and Dragonite are unbearable on the suspect ladder, suspect those as well and offer the option of banning Stealth Rock and/or Volcarona and/or Dragonite.

Treat it as an experiment of sorts, to find out whether there are any other hidden implications none of us have thought about. It's obvious it's a big change, but that doesn't mean you can't experiment.

 

[Scorpiopt]

We have the means and the time to supect test stealth rock . but do we have the will?
Most people in favour of it not being tested is in my view because they are so used to it making things easier for them , just waste a turn and boom solid damage every turn
Dragonite and Volcarona can be checked and countered with proper predictions Stealth Rock is not required

 

[h34d4ch3]

SR balances the whole OU metagame. Testing it would mean testing literally every individual pokemon used in OU one at a time. The entire metagame would be uprooted, and for what? Charizard in OU? No, most of the lower tier SR weak pokemon are there not merely due to SR, but because they're not fit for OU. Getting rid of SR wouldn't make their stats or movepools better.
Also, by your logic, damage on every switch would make spikes broken too. And BTW, the damage is virtually optional, pack a spinner or magic bounce user, or simply build a logical team to deal with hazards.
Also, Dragonite and Volcarona would be infinitely harder to counter w/ SR gone. And this isn't just theorymoning; if you've ever fought full health dragonite/volca you would know how much a pain in the ass they would become. Checking them would take dedicated counters on every team, and they'd be equivalent to excadrill in broken-ness, every team having to pack something like conkeldur just to deal with him.

Right now, there's barely any support for an SR suspect test. There are more pressing things, like weather, landorus and keldeo, and SR would be a waste of a precious slot.

If you guys really want to see a metagame without SR, make a tournament or something, then post your findings here, so we can quit theorymoning.

 

[vyomov]

and for what? Charizard in OU?

For balancing the metagame? For removing what is EVIDENTLY the biggest reason behind rain's domination of the metagame?

the damage is virtually optional, pack a spinner or magic bounce user

Theoretically that works. In reality:
a) Most of the spinners are easily countered and SR is set up after that, crippling the team and wasting a slot
b) Magic Bounce users requires that the user be on the field WHEN SR is set up. That's pretty easily predicted, meaning the opponent can just switch in Scizor(highest used in OU) and Pursuit trap you. Game Over. Even worse, there's nothing stopping an opponent from setting up SR AFTER the Bouncer is gone.

Dragonite and Volcarona would be infinitely harder to counter w/ SR gone

Just because SR is gone doesn't mean Rock-type moves are banned. Virtually any mon with a good SpA stat carrying HP Rock can beat out Volcarona. As for Dragonite, powerful enough Ice-types can beat it. Dragonite is also slow, meaning mons outspeed it and rent it before attacking.
Have you heard of a mon called Kyurem-B? Guess what? Kyurem-B outspeeds and OHKOes Dragonite WITH Multiscale intact(even for the most DEFENSIVE variants). So no, Dragonite isn't broken at all.

 

[ElectivireRocks]

Again with the Volcarona argument.

Without SR a standard Volcarona has no means to defeat Moltres (a pokemon who would instantly become viable in OU if SR didn't exist) and Heatran at the same time, for starters. They can phaze it, Toxic stall it or 2HKO at worst.
Volcarona can't beat Heatran without HP Ground and can't beat Moltres without HP Rock or Hurricane.
Assuming for some weird reason Volcarona starts running HP Water in rain teams to beat both of them, then it gets walled by the likes of Gyarados. and Dragonite, who would counter it even better without SR.

About Dragonite. We have viable pokemon who are able to OHKO it through Multiscale, namely Kyurem-B, Cloyster, Mamoswine and Haxorus.
All of them would become more viable in a metagame without SR while not being broken because they still have their weaknesses (re: priority and unimpressive speed).

The two least used weathers, sun and hail, would definitely see a raise in usage without SR crippling their inducers.

The metagame would definitely be different, for better or worse.
I'd just like to see it instead of keep theorymoning.

 

[Electrolyte]

No, I think the biggest deal is that we will indeed be uprooting the whole entire netagame. This isn't something small, like a single Pokemon or even a group of Pokemon, who check / counter or are checked / countered by a few other Pokemon. Stealth Rock literally affects every single Pokemon in the metagame in some way, be it positively or negatively. This isn't just the concept of 'oh now I can run Celebi and Latias again because CA Gene is banned.' It's not that simple. Many Pokemon will be shifting around, rising and falling at different paces. But how can we determine whether Stealth Rock is good or bad if its suspect becomes impeded with the rising and falling of the usage of nearly every Pokemon in the metagame because that's how wide its range of effect is? Its impact is huge on the metagame, and thus, such a suspect should be considered thoroughly with a lot of community support and solid reasons other than 'we've got nothing else to do.'

 

[George Eliot]

It will have a massive effect and be a difficult test to plan and carry out, sure. For me, that's just a reason to start as soon as possible. We have a good reason - the widely perceived brokenness of the move and the negative effects as a result (particularly, it's discrimination against certain typings). Also, simply because mass metagame shifts are occurring shouldn't make it much more difficult to judge whether the meta is preferable without Stealth Rock, or at least not nearly to the same extent if we were trying to test a Pokémon in similar conditions.

 

[SmashBrosBrawl]

1-SR balances the whole OU metagame. 2-No, most of the lower tier SR weak pokemon are there not merely due to SR, but because they're not fit for OU. Getting rid of SR wouldn't make their stats or movepools better. 3-And BTW, the damage is virtually optional, pack a spinner or magic bounce user, or simply build a logical team to deal with hazards.

1-This is so wrong. While stealth rock definitely helps keep dragonite and volcarona in check it also reduces the viability of a lot of others. Thundurus-t, tornadus, salamence, kyurem-b among others are very difficult to use due to their stealth rock weakness. When the hazards help keeps some stuff in check but hurts the viability of others this is not what i would call balance.

2-This is actually true. Saying stuff like ''moltres would be instantly ou without rocks'' is ridiculous. Moltres does actually have a niche and is actually useful in ou but guess what, its low speed and horrible typing make everyone shy away from using it. Removing stealth rocks wouldnt change these facts.

3-No. This is not how it works. Being FORCED to run these kind of pokemons for the sole reason of preventing hazards from ruining your team and not being guaranted to remove the hazards even when you have these mons is not ''optional''. Dont talk as if using spinners or magic bounces means that rocks are instantly not a threat. All of them have crippling flaws and are easy to beat with the sole exception of tentacruel in rain.

No, I think the biggest deal is that we will indeed be uprooting the whole entire netagame. This isn't something small, like a single Pokemon or even a group of Pokemon, who check / counter or are checked / countered by a few other Pokemon. Stealth Rock literally affects every single Pokemon in the metagame in some way, be it positively or negatively. This isn't just the concept of 'oh now I can run Celebi and Latias again because CA Gene is banned.' It's not that simple. Many Pokemon will be shifting around, rising and falling at different paces. But how can we determine whether Stealth Rock is good or bad if its suspect becomes impeded with the rising and falling of the usage of nearly every Pokemon in the metagame because that's how wide its range of effect is? Its impact is huge on the metagame, and thus, such a suspect should be considered thoroughly with a lot of community support and solid reasons other than 'we've got nothing else to do.'

I second this. We need much more than just theorymon and this whole ''lets test because why not'' in order to actually make a real suspect test. Banning rocks is not something to be taken lightly. Its a huge metagame defining move in EVERY tier and the results of its ban could be disastrous.

 

[ElectivireRocks]

I hope you're joking when you say that Moltres, a pokemon that can abuse both sun and rain, walls the likes of Heatran, Scizor and Volcarona to hell and back, can PP stall with SubRoost, phaze and has all-around solid stats, wouldn't be viable in OU without SR.
Oh and let's not forget that it gets Agility to fix its "horrible" base 90 speed and doesn't care about most priority moves.

Go take a look at Malaconda CAP playtest's results: Moltres is #53 in the standard stats and #42 in the 1850 stats. All it took was a decent rapid spinner for sun teams to make that happen.
Moltres' typing is considered horrible because of SR. If you look past that you have an excellent check to many top OU threats.

 

[Scorpiopt]

. We need much more than just theorymon and this whole ''lets test because why not'' in order to actually make a real suspect test. Banning rocks is not something to be taken lightly. Its a huge metagame defining move in EVERY tier and the results of its ban could be disastrous.

You say that because every team build , every switch , every damage calc takes stealth rock in consideration , it over centralizes the entire metagame regardless of tier
People don't want that to change, removing that would make the metagame more skill based because it would require more predictions in order to counter certain treats that are countered by stealth rock only

 

[Fenris]

Truth is, people are afraid of / don't like change. I'd personally love to, at least, have a separate Tier with SR banned (kinda similar to that Clear Skies tier we had in PO... Miss those times :( ). Would be curious, to say the list: as others have mentioned Moltres, Volcarona and Charizard may see more play there.

 

[Curtains]

Usage has never been a factor in determining something is broken. So please throw the over- centralized term out the window. Besides, the meta-game doesn't revolve around sr. High powered threats and the defense of these threats centralize the metagame. Rain, sun and sand make the tier what it is, not sr. To prove this I want to bring up a pokemon that hasn't been cherry picked at all in this thread.... That pokrmon is articuno. Why hasn't articuno been picked on? It has the same high stats and the same 4x weakness to sr. You know why its not being talked about? Becuase to be frank it sucks. It is weak to bullet punch and mach punch and no weathers give any boost to its attacks. The only reason people want to use moltres is because of weather. It gets hurricane and a boosted fire blast in sun. Also, can we stop acting like the pokemon have feelings? The game isn't made by us to give every pokemon a chance. Gamefreak gave us a type chart and pokemon with the idea that certain types are better than others. If you want other pokemon to have a chance then play other tiers. We should imbrace sr as a gift the the real game makers gave us. Instead of trying to change the game into an even less enjoyable game in the name of "giving pokemon a chance".

 

[ElectivireRocks]

Usage has never been a factor in determining something is broken. So please throw the over- centralized term out the window. Besides, the meta-game doesn't revolve around sr. High powered threats and the defense of these threats centralize the metagame. Rain, sun and sand make the tier what it is, not sr. To prove this I want to bring up a pokemon that hasn't been cherry picked at all in this thread.... That pokrmon is articuno. Why hasn't articuno been picked on? It has the same high stats and the same 4x weakness to sr. You know why its not being talked about? Becuase to be frank it sucks. It is weak to bullet punch and mach punch and no weathers give any boost to its attacks. The only reason people want to use moltres is because of weather. It gets hurricane and a boosted fire blast in sun. Also, can we stop acting like the pokemon have feelings? The game isn't made by us to give every pokemon a chance. Gamefreak gave us a type chart and pokemon with the idea that certain types are better than others. If you want other pokemon to have a chance then play other tiers. We should imbrace sr as a gift the the real game makers gave us. Instead of trying to change the game into an even less enjoyable game in the name of "giving pokemon a chance".

Please. Go make a team without SR user, without spinners and with 2 or more SR-weak pokemon. Good luck, really.

Articuno would be perfectly viable with its dual STAB (Hurricane says hi), excellent bulk and solid support movepool without SR ruining its day.
Would it be a staple in OU teams? No. But viable? Yes, it would.

And how can say say that a metagame without Stealth Rock would be "less enjoyable"? Have you tried it before?

 

[Curtains]

I can safely say I have made at least 1500 teams since the beginning of dppt and probably 300 didn't have sr at all. I think the usefulness of sr varies from battle to battle. Some battles you don't need sr because you have enough initiative to compensate for it. Other battles you wish you would have had it because you are getting swept by something that is sr weak below 25 percent. If you constantly think about trying to get sr off the field then you need to reevaluate your battling strategy. I don't see it as big of a deal to need 2 spinners and a magic bouncer. I think as far ahead as I can during the battle to make the right decisions. Sr is just an additional calculation variable I have to take in. You guys talk about these cherry picked sr weak pokemon instantly becoming viable but what do they bring to the metagame that non sr weak pokemon that are unused don't? More pokemon in a metagame doesn't make it better.

 

[deidarasenpai]

First, is it Stealth Rock, or Stealth Rocks, because seeing the latter used again and again is just ughhh OCD kicks into gear?

Ummm... one thing to point out, I'd really wish people would stop bandwagoning on "if Stealth Rock were gone, then XYZ Pokemon (like Articuno and Moltres) would instantly be viable in OU", because that's complete theorymon. They do have their useful qualities, but I doubt Stealth Rock is the entire reason they're in NU. Things do hold them back, such as low speed and their weakness to common attacking types. I doubt the community wants to go through the hassle of a suspect test just so people can use Charizard and Moltres, because as stated before, we must keep in mind the radical changes that would happen to the metagame. Before you say I'm afraid of change though, I see nothing wrong with moving from pure theorymon to testing a ladder without Stealth Rock, because we could end up with a better metagame (who knows?).

However, am I the only one that really appreciates the chip damage that Stealth Rock provides? It's incredibly useful in battle and provides a whole nother dimension to calculations, in that you need to take in account the limits of how much damage a Pokemon can sustain and how many times they can switch factoring Stealth Rock damage. I don't understand why putting Pokemon on a time limit through Stealth Rock switches is bad; Spikes does the same thing, but is discriminatory to all grounded Pokemon. Furthermore, it was argued that Stealth Rock deals massive amounts of damage, something like 200% a game. Keep in mind that not every Pokemon is neutral or weak to Stealth Rock, and passive recovery in Leftovers and recovery moves (eg Recover, Roost, etc.) probably heal more damage than is inflicted by hazards. Lastly, though it can be argued that Stealth Rock is discriminatory towards types, is that necessarily a bad thing? Types were inherently created unequal anyway, and it doesn't really inhibit teambuilding in that no good teambuilder would stuff their team full of Pokemon weak to Rock anyway. Also, the Pokemon moved to lower tiers "due to their Stealth Rock weakness" are generally outclassed, as Stealth Rock-weak Pokemon exist in the higher tiers as well.

One last additional thing, people keep claiming that Stealth Rock is overpowered because it only takes one turn to deal consistent damage or have a lasting effect, but that one turn / multiple turns (if the opponent has a spinner) could be used to do other things. If you have a free turn, you can set up in a variety of ways; Dragon Dance, Substitute, Thunder Wave, all which put you ahead in a major way. So I'm sort of on the fence if this is truly a powerful argument for banning Stealth Rock.

 

[Tressed]

Besides, the meta-game doesn't revolve around sr.

The existence and usage of Custap Skarm and Forry, Lead Terrakion, Starmie, Tentacruel, Donphan, and even Hitmontop prove otherwise. These sets and 'mons would see far, far less usage if Stealth Rock wasn't such a massive factor in battles.

To prove this I want to bring up a pokemon that hasn't been cherry picked at all in this thread.... That pokrmon is articuno. Why hasn't articuno been picked on? It has the same high stats and the same 4x weakness to sr. You know why its not being talked about? Becuase to be frank it sucks. It is weak to bullet punch and mach punch and no weathers give any boost to its attacks.

Um, yep, we realized that, hence no one bringing it up so far. Disregarding Stealth Rock at all, Ice / Flying typing is still shit defensively, and Articuno has a ton of weaknesses that stop it from being a viable defensive 'mon.

The only reason people want to use moltres is because of weather. It gets hurricane and a boosted fire blast in sun.

Yeah, that's its niche. That doesn't change the fact that if we didn't have Stealth Rock, Moltres would have nice 90/90/89 defences, would pack six resistances / immunities and three weaknesses, and have access to both Rain and Sun boosted moves, backed by a nice 125 Sp. Attack stat. It could work as a good tank, and might compete with Heatran for the position if it weren't for the fact that it loses half it health by switching in.

Also, can we stop acting like the pokemon have feelings? The game isn't made by us to give every pokemon a chance. Gamefreak gave us a type chart and pokemon with the idea that certain types are better than others. If you want other pokemon to have a chance then play other tiers. We should imbrace sr as a gift the the real game makers gave us. Instead of trying to change the game into an even less enjoyable game in the name of "giving pokemon a chance".

We don't have to do everything Game Freak intends. We build our own Pokemon. We make tiers. We've already turned our backs on the rules they've set for us, because someone thought "I could do better." Its true. Game Freak doesn't care about people rage-quitting the game and cancelling a loss, has no issue with OHKO moves and bullshit like Moody and Double Team, and doesn't really care if everyone has to run Politoed / Conkeldurr / other Excadrill counter, but will make sure that Kyurem B never sees the light of day. We can do better. Hell, we've already done better. And we can keep doing better with every generation.

Oh, and by the way, 300 of your 1500 teams didn't have Stealth Rock, or in other words, 1200 of your 1500 did. 80% usage on all your teams since SR's introduction isn't in your favor.

Anyways, it is a bit late in this gen to literally flip the entire meta on its head, so I don't think we'll see the change this gen. Next gen, though, I want to be having this discussion again, first thing after release, barring if Game Freak does decide to balance Rocks a bit.

 

[boo836]

Hey remember when we used to make fun of people who wanted SR to be banned?

I honestly don't even see why this discussion is up. Stealth Rock and hazards add another layer (heh) of strategy to the game by means of limiting your switches. Beyond that, it severely diversifies the game. A good part of stall relies on hazards to rack up damage, while SR and hazards are used by offensive teams to turn 2HKOs into OHKOs and 3HKOs to 2HKOs. Banning it for the sake of using stuff Charizard is absolutely ridiculous, because by that logic we should also ban Tyranitar so Ghost/Psychic types can be used more. Seems rather stupid right, because there's stuff like Scizor which could easily keep them down and out. Well consider this: Charizard fucking sucks by today's standards. Base 109 Special Attack is nothing without Sun boosting you. Articuno's shit too, and Moltres would maybe be viable as a sweeper, but you'd have to be high to think that it would function as a tank. Does it have a niche in walling Scizor, Heatran, and Volcarona? Yeah. But then again, Weezing also walls Scizor and more, and Snorlax walls lots of Pokemon. Just because something might have a niche, it doesn't make it good or the meta restrictive if it cannot be used.

Oh, and for the record, just because something gives an edge in the game, it doesn't mean the metagame revolves around it. I'm really starting to see why suspect was scrapped at one point; no one really knows how to play this fucking game anymore.

 

[George Eliot]

That's just ludicrous boo. SR adds an extra layer of strategy but it also removes at least as much as it gives. Consider how much many matches revolve around getting SR as quickly as possible, and then trying to remove the opponents as quickly as possible, and so on. That's added strategy sure, but it comes at the cost of non-SR centric strategy which would otherwise be taking place. This is pretty obvious.

We're not arguing for a ban specifically to use Charizard and co. We're arguing for a ban because in general, every SR weak pokemon is massively discriminated against, and every future SR weak pokemon will face this same disadvantage. The other main reason is that SR is inarguably the single most powerful "thing" in the game. In any given match, this one move, which has no drawbacks of any kind, will do more damage than one to three pokemon (depending on the pace of the game). Finally, SR also severely hurts the viability of stall.

Lastly, arguing that the metagame doesn't revolve around SR just shows how little you know, or at least understand, about it. Every team, bar Baton Pass, uses it. Every team. Nearly all successful non-HO teams use spinners. The early game of practically every match revolves around getting it. Virtually every SR weak pokemon currently in the metagame is considered to be broken or close to broken in a SR-less meta. You simply do not see these effects if it simply gives you an "edge". I'd challenge you to find anything in the game, even the weather war, which the meta revolves around more than Stealth Rock.