Remember that without SR landorus is certainly not the only threat now. So banning sr just to not make moltres less atrocious doesn't make any sense. Besides... If people are using u-turn volcarona what makes you think moltres would do any better than just scraping the bottom of OU wothout rocks?
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Entry Hazards - Are They Broken?
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Kind of an irrelevant post, but Moltres would be awesome and a very viable Pokemon in a metagame where it doesn't lose 50% of its life upon switching in. It checks so many threats, such as Scizor, Volcarona, Lucario, Landorus, NP Celebi, Breloom, and sun teams, has awesome offensive potential with two great STABs, and many great stalling tools as well, such as Roost, Toxic, Pressure, and the ability to beat many Pokemon that would normally want to switch into Toxic. Without SR my guess is that it could get high enough usage to get into the 30-40 ranking.
This post is just a personal rant and is not in any way a reason to ban SR.
This post is just a personal rant and is not in any way a reason to ban SR.
And without SR, Moltres wouldn't be broken as rain weakens one of its STABs, and its also slow, and fails to break the 100 speed tier. While nothing can really take Hurricane/Fire Blast/HP Ground, Air Balloon Heatran does resists all 3 and is immune to two of them.
I have to say, we should make a Stealth Rock free metagame, so many things would be more viable. Though things like Zard would stay in NU/RU (or if lucky UU), Victini and Darmanitan would rise to OU, Tornadus would now be OU, and many other things would rise.
Simply given the impact SR can have on an average game if gotten up early, it's clearly better than any other move. There's just no other move which can directly influence the popularity of several Pokemon this heavily. Dealing with them are also tricky. For example, there are very few Rapid Spinners who Ferrothorn has to fear switching into. They spin the SR away, lose 1/8 of their health for hitting Ferro in addition to the 1/8 from the SR, and then Ferro sets them up again as they switch out. The move in and of itself is strong by itself, but the methods of dealing with can be rendered ineffective very easily. In that sense, it's broken.
However, it just so happens that it is one of the most effective methods for dealing with several Pokemon who I feel could actually end up in the Uber tier without SR holding them back in OU. In that sense, it provides a lot of diversity to OU, and actually doesn't invalidate as many Pokemon as the potential to take out half of a Poke's health every time it switches in implies. I honestly feel that it's impact on the metagame is mostly positive.
I, personally, would love to see a small nerf to SR, if only to discourage stall. I don't quite know how someone could go about nerfing it, but either way, it's up to Nintendo, not me.
However, it just so happens that it is one of the most effective methods for dealing with several Pokemon who I feel could actually end up in the Uber tier without SR holding them back in OU. In that sense, it provides a lot of diversity to OU, and actually doesn't invalidate as many Pokemon as the potential to take out half of a Poke's health every time it switches in implies. I honestly feel that it's impact on the metagame is mostly positive.
I, personally, would love to see a small nerf to SR, if only to discourage stall. I don't quite know how someone could go about nerfing it, but either way, it's up to Nintendo, not me.
Moletres wouldn't be broken, but it would certainly be OU. There are very few special attackers who aren't already packing one of Heatran's weaknesses as STAB that can handle him (though Specs HP Ground OHKOs after Rocks, so that's a sketchy "counter"). While rain weakens his Fire STAB, it gives him a 100% accurate Hurricane, and while sun makes Hurricane 50% accurate, it gives another STAB boost to Fire Blast. That kind of power and all-weather-ness only being RU really goes to show you what Stealth Rock does.
Who talked about Moltres being broken? I just said that it would be easily in OU and a pretty good Pokemon overall.
A metagame without Entry hazards is a metagame where Dragonite hasn't problems for its multiscale and Volcarona can live more long.
Moltres would be in OU and it can learn Hurricane, so rain isn't a very problem for it. Moltres can abuse of it.
Moltres would be in OU and it can learn Hurricane, so rain isn't a very problem for it. Moltres can abuse of it.
Well, it affected others, as you've mentioned. To be honest, those with 2x and 4x weaknesses other than Charizard, well they just have better qualities. Volc has QD and dat 135 SpA, Moltres has all around amazing stats, Hurricane for Rain, etc. Charizard? 107 SpA, 100 speed (not that good in BW), and Solar Power. That may be what you just said, if so, I'm sorry XD
Dark Fallen Angel
FIDDLESTICKS IS ALSO GOOD ON MID!
Entry hazards are not broken, with exception of Stealth Rock, which I am in doubt. I would not see it as broken in any way, except because the fact that it makes many Pokémon unviable, such as Moltres, but at same time it makes other potentially broken Pokémon balanced, such as Volcarona.
What I am trying to say is that I cannot say for sure if Stealth Rock is broken or not because I have difficulty imagining a metagame with the current Pokémon but without Stealth Rock. However, it would surely be very interesting and I would be willing to play such metagame. I think it would even facilitate teambuilding; having to use Rapid Spin would not be as much of a concern as before. However, I fear the impact that Pokémon like Volcarona, Dragonite, and Tornadus (it does not have Regenerator like Tornadus-T has, but not having to worry about Stealth Rock is a big plus).
What I am trying to say is that I cannot say for sure if Stealth Rock is broken or not because I have difficulty imagining a metagame with the current Pokémon but without Stealth Rock. However, it would surely be very interesting and I would be willing to play such metagame. I think it would even facilitate teambuilding; having to use Rapid Spin would not be as much of a concern as before. However, I fear the impact that Pokémon like Volcarona, Dragonite, and Tornadus (it does not have Regenerator like Tornadus-T has, but not having to worry about Stealth Rock is a big plus).
Without Stealth Rock, Sun would for sure get a huge boost. And I only see this as a good thing, as Rain is overcentralizing and lends nicely to Stall, which I detest. A spinner wouldn't be a necessity on Sun teams, so Donphan would almost certainly drop. However, I do see that things with Levitate or Flying types could easily take advantage of Stealth Rock being around, as they will become immune to entry hazards. Dragonite in particular, with Leftovers, would become a huge threat due to its ability to always guarantee a Dragon Dance. I would like to see Stealth Rock banned, as it would promote diversity, something Gen 5 OU is somewhat lacking in.
Literally I just don't like how stealth rock alone severely limits the usage of some pokemon who could otherwise arguably find a great place in OU. Such pokemon Include Moltres, Charizard maybe some other mons too. SR should not be as powerful as what it is, its literally just unfair on some pokemon.
As many people said before me i do not think hazards are broken. They are there to keep everything in balance. While diversity may or may not suffer from this, in OU, it is still an important part of the meta-game. Whether that be helping nab a KO or two. Or preventing a few pokemon from dominating a tier. They all help in their own way. Also there are ways to prevent, and eliminate counters. While this may sound very noobish to say, it still is true.
Also while on the topic of changing the tier of some pokemon. Where will all the spinners go? Granted that the bulky ones will only drop a tier or two. and Hitmontop would still be good offensively kinda. It dose raise a interesting question though. What would be the use of using a spinner if you can just levitate (or fly) over the hazards that take over 2-3 turns to actually be decent and the spinner will take unnecessary damage. Well claydol (lol). But it still stands what would be the point?
Not to mention all the Focus Sash usages as previously stated in the forums. Which will compound the problem of an unbalanced meta-game. So at the end of the day it is two options a basically Flying/levitate biased meta-game or one with hazards (namely stealth rocks).
Also while on the topic of changing the tier of some pokemon. Where will all the spinners go? Granted that the bulky ones will only drop a tier or two. and Hitmontop would still be good offensively kinda. It dose raise a interesting question though. What would be the use of using a spinner if you can just levitate (or fly) over the hazards that take over 2-3 turns to actually be decent and the spinner will take unnecessary damage. Well claydol (lol). But it still stands what would be the point?
Not to mention all the Focus Sash usages as previously stated in the forums. Which will compound the problem of an unbalanced meta-game. So at the end of the day it is two options a basically Flying/levitate biased meta-game or one with hazards (namely stealth rocks).
That's not taking a lot of things into factor. Firstly, other hazards still need to be spinned away. In fact, Spikes and Toxic Spikes would only get a boost and mons like Accelgor would be more viable.
Sash has it's disadvantages: mons lose the sweeping power that they get with items like LO and Choice items and all a sash does in return is convert OHKOes to 2HKOs.
Anyways, after considerable thought, I would rather nerf SR by banning the TM than ban it altogether(MS Drago would be Uber).
The advantage of banning the TM is twofold: it makes certain mons more viable(like Articuno, Moltres) and also increases the usage of mons that learn the moves(like Gigalith, which with Sturdy might see more usage in OU)
I don't think banning the TM would be a good way to go about it. I probably would have preferred there not to have been a TM in the first place, but I find it hard to justify banning it.
I don't advocate for banning Stealth Rocks but if we did and Volcarona and Dragonite proves to be too powerful then the solution is simply to ban them. The argument that we need it to keep those two in check doesn't hold.
I don't advocate for banning Stealth Rocks but if we did and Volcarona and Dragonite proves to be too powerful then the solution is simply to ban them. The argument that we need it to keep those two in check doesn't hold.
While this is true, Stealth Rock also plays a beneficial role by decreasing the amount of Pokemon that deserve a ban by keeping them in check. Monsters such as Volcarona or Dragonite are really only in OU because Stealth Rock exists to cripple them. Sun's Chlorophyll sweepers are only allowed because Stealth Rock makes it easy to take down the source of Sun that gives those Pokemon a boost in the first place. Other dangerous Pokemon, such as Thundurus-T, Kyurem-B or Salamence are also kept in check.
Stealth Rock also plays a key role in keeping some strategies at bay. Stall is forced to run a spinner, VoltTurn too, and smart switching can be used in junctionwith hazards to wear down walls or offensive sweepers by forcing them out. Hazards are also what make Stall viable in the first place- by making phazing not only screw up momentum but also potentially cause quite a lot of damage, too.
Electrolyte just want to mention that SR keeping stuff in check in no reason not to ban it. if volc and dnite would be broken without rocks, fine. If we ban rocks, we can ban them after. And honestly, I am 95% confident in saying that more mons would be usable in OU even counting for whatever bans would take place if SR was banned. You're also forgetting to account for the fact that like gyarados, moltres, etc now become perfectly viable and great checks to threats like volc. Overall? I'd say we lose 5ish mons total (dnite might very well get banned, as would volc perhaps, while stuff like donphan and hitmontop loses their big niche), while introducing way way way more.
And a boost to stall wouldn't hurt in the slightest, it needs a little more viability. And honestly SR hurts stall, spikes are what make it viable. having a hazard that takes one turn to set up puts less emphasis on the bulk and maneuvering that goes into stall's ability to lay multiple layers. Volturn isn't kept at bay by SR either as essentially playing vs volturn becomes who can get SR up first, since both sides have access to it. In fact, I'd argue that volturn wouldn't exist without SR.
SR is just so unbelievably meta-defining, it makes complete mons and playstyles viable and inviable simply by existing. I'd love to see a test for this.
And a boost to stall wouldn't hurt in the slightest, it needs a little more viability. And honestly SR hurts stall, spikes are what make it viable. having a hazard that takes one turn to set up puts less emphasis on the bulk and maneuvering that goes into stall's ability to lay multiple layers. Volturn isn't kept at bay by SR either as essentially playing vs volturn becomes who can get SR up first, since both sides have access to it. In fact, I'd argue that volturn wouldn't exist without SR.
SR is just so unbelievably meta-defining, it makes complete mons and playstyles viable and inviable simply by existing. I'd love to see a test for this.
If SR is so bad like you say then why are pokemon like dragonite,volcarona,gyarados, thundurus and friends all used in OU? I dont think moltres being UU or whatever it is is such a detriment to the current OU. Yes it can check landorus. But eventually it will just switch to HP rock or stone edge. Or it will still use u-turn and switch out freely to a water type or a tyranitar. if it is good enough to be OU then it will be OU.. it is not reasonable to cherry pick random SR weak pokemon and say that they will thrive in OU without SR. Especially when we already have tons of pokemon that take a lick of damage from SR. People are acually using u-turn volcarona . If SR was this huge problem like you say it is then u-turn volcarona would never be used. I think SR helps keep down the power creep. Not to mention that it isn't that easy to put and keep rocks up. Now i know you are going to reply and give me some ridiculous cherry picked extremely specific examples on how hard it is to spin. But those cases are irrelevant to the topic of SR. The fact is SR is a very good move... It balances out the game very well to gamefreaks specifications. It doesnt really do anything more than gamefreak wanted to do. Like I said before It was almost like gamefreak put it in the game to help out communities like this one. Finally we cant use the argument of "if it is broken then we ban it". First off SR isn't broken. Second if it was broken you need to look at the resulting metagame. With BW being so offensive in nature having SR is actually a blessing. Defensive pokemon have a greater chance of actually doing something to offensive pokemon with their moves and it gives them purpose with the move SR.
check these calcs:
0 SpA Bronzong Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Thundurus-T: 102-120 (34.11 - 40.13%) -- 28.91% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
0 SpA Bronzong Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Thundurus-T: 102-120 (34.11 - 40.13%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
now not taking in LO damage we can clearly see that SR helps defensive pokemon. It still may be a 3hko but at least bronzong has a chance.. And with LO damage he has a very good shot at a 2hko.
So we may not like SR because it hurts our newly favorite pokemon moltres but it helps the game tremendously and has no attributes that make it broken.
@ Kidogo, I think the reason the statement "if it is broken the we ban it" was brought up, is because it's often brought up as an argument to ban Stealth Rock, but hinges on the assumption that Stealth Rock is indeed broken, which not everyone agrees it is.
In my opinion, we really should only ban Stealth Rock if it is unhealthy for the metagame, or is broken in its own right. However, a sizable fraction of the arguments I've seen made by the pro-ban faction do not demonstrate that Stealth Rock is broken; rather they refute the arguments made by those wanting to keep Stealth Rock and then claim it is broken, all without explaining why.
For example, the anti-ban says:
"Stealth Rock keeps Dragonite, Volcarona, etc. in check, and so benefits the metagame."
And so the pro-ban says:
"Those Pokemon are broken anyway without Stealth Rock, so let's ban it."
One argument that continuously resurfaces that suggests that Stealth Rock could be broken goes like this:
In my opinion, we really should only ban Stealth Rock if it is unhealthy for the metagame, or is broken in its own right. However, a sizable fraction of the arguments I've seen made by the pro-ban faction do not demonstrate that Stealth Rock is broken; rather they refute the arguments made by those wanting to keep Stealth Rock and then claim it is broken, all without explaining why.
For example, the anti-ban says:
"Stealth Rock keeps Dragonite, Volcarona, etc. in check, and so benefits the metagame."
And so the pro-ban says:
"Those Pokemon are broken anyway without Stealth Rock, so let's ban it."
One argument that continuously resurfaces that suggests that Stealth Rock could be broken goes like this:
Basically, because I can't use XYZ Pokemon, therefore, Stealth Rock must be broken. I want to use Charizard; I want to use Yanmega; I want to use Moltres; and because Stealth Rock keeps me from doing, heck, it must be broken. Just because some Pokemon are unviable doesn't mean Stealth Rock is broken.
I am not saying that anything is broken but I do think, a metagame without rocks would be beneficial. It would be healthy for OU by giving other viable mons the chance to flourish.
Well that's what I woulda assumed except for the rest of the post:
And also about the refutation, it is quite valid to simply refute the opposition's argument without forwarding one of your own--we were simply stating that saying that SR keeps things in check isn't a good argument, we always can (and should) ban them afterwards if necessary. That in and of itself isn't an argument for SR's ban, just an argument against an argument against its ban, if that makes sense.
I agree, the question should be if SR is broken. And I think the over-centralization argument is exactly why many of us feel it is broken. He's not saying that because SR makes some mons he wants to use in-viable, it's broken--he's saying that one move, which has insane distribution and is easy to set up and to keep up, single-handedly makes inviable many mons that would otherwise be viable. Seems a little too powerful to me for one--we calculated that on average, SR if set up turn 1 and not spun will do ~200% a game. JPW made a point a while ago that even if SR doesn't go up, when teambuilding you have to act as if it will be because of its omnipresence. SR is not just invalidating mons we like--it is utterly shaping the metagame to a degree that is frankly too much.
And also about the refutation, it is quite valid to simply refute the opposition's argument without forwarding one of your own--we were simply stating that saying that SR keeps things in check isn't a good argument, we always can (and should) ban them afterwards if necessary. That in and of itself isn't an argument for SR's ban, just an argument against an argument against its ban, if that makes sense.
On paper, stealth rock looks broken, since it cripples certain types, and not others. That being said, isn't pokemon naturally discriminatory? Popular types will always root out others. You don't see that many normal or rock types right now because of the increase in fighting types and water type moves being thrown arround.
Ultimately, its up to the pokemon to be fit for the meta that defines it's value, and I don't see that many pokemon becoming more viable with the removal of rocks. The majority of fire, ice, flying and bugs outside OU suck. Only a few mons like yanmega and zapdos look vaguely promising, but then you have to take into account stuff like Volcarona and Dragonite would then most likely become broken.
What I do think is wrong with stealth rock is the ease of set up and the damage it incurs. I think it should be a two layer attack, doing the current damage it does after two layers, and only taking away up to 25 percent health at one layer, but that's just me being picky, because I'd like to see spikes get more usage, and I think that making rocks harder to set up would be more beneficial, but that's just my biased opinion.
The fact remains that stealth rock is completely metagame definining, and taking it away would make certain already powerful threats stronger, without really boosting the usage of any other types, since the majority of non-ou sr weak mons are simply just not up to the metagame, and not just weak to sr.
what I think this tier could use more of is better rapid spinners and spin blockers.
Ultimately, its up to the pokemon to be fit for the meta that defines it's value, and I don't see that many pokemon becoming more viable with the removal of rocks. The majority of fire, ice, flying and bugs outside OU suck. Only a few mons like yanmega and zapdos look vaguely promising, but then you have to take into account stuff like Volcarona and Dragonite would then most likely become broken.
What I do think is wrong with stealth rock is the ease of set up and the damage it incurs. I think it should be a two layer attack, doing the current damage it does after two layers, and only taking away up to 25 percent health at one layer, but that's just me being picky, because I'd like to see spikes get more usage, and I think that making rocks harder to set up would be more beneficial, but that's just my biased opinion.
The fact remains that stealth rock is completely metagame definining, and taking it away would make certain already powerful threats stronger, without really boosting the usage of any other types, since the majority of non-ou sr weak mons are simply just not up to the metagame, and not just weak to sr.
what I think this tier could use more of is better rapid spinners and spin blockers.
The problem with argument is that your assessment that SR kills 2 pokemon a battle is not backed up by any facts. It is all assumption. Every battle is different. Every battle (hopefully) has different pokemon and different move orders. It is fantasy to think that every game has SR going up on move one and staying there forever. I just did a ladder run where I didn't even notice I didn't have SR on my team and I did really well getting up to the 1700s in a short time. On the point of team-building I say that you and JPW are making another generalization. When team-building you have to think about what you are going up against. When I team build I don't sit there and look at the description of SR all day wondering how I am suppose to beat it. I make my team and make adjustments in testing on the ladder. If I have 5 pokemon weak to SR then maybe I need to try to have something to stop that and still keep synergy and my team strategy in line. Or I may not try to stop it at all... Because I know my team's primary goal is to use every turn to the fullest to beat you.... Not to switch around mindlessly and take SR damage. This is a thinking game..right.... or is it rock paper scissors? I don't see getting a penalty for every switch being a bad thing. Taking out SR removes something that makes you think about every move.. It is alot deeper than your ridiculous generalization and assumption about how a regular battle is conducted. You see.... Not everyone likes moltres, charizard or yanmega. They don't bring anything more to OU than what the other already OU SR weak pokemon do.
I don't think I missed any context here, but... a defensive 'mon weak to SR can't do its job as long as SR is on the field. Rotom-H, who could normally taken on most of what Sun can throw at it, can't do so when it's taking 25% every switch in. This is also the case for Zapdos, Togekiss, etc... Similarly, speedy revenge killing Pokémon like Weavile, Aerodactyl, and Scolipede. The Pokémon they want to counter can simply switch out and wait for SR to take its toll.
Also, you mentioned how SR helps defense. Well, yeah, its so good, it helps quite literally every playstyle. However, SR on the field hurts defensive play more than any other. "Oh, look, Darm's now at 75%. Now to hit it with... Oh, crap." SR helps plenty of Pokémon hit their 2HKO/1HKO benchmarks. Stall isn't aiming for those benchmarks, its hoping that the opponent will miss them. Simply from my experience with Stall in RU, SR hurts more than helps. Yeah, Moltres is at 50%. Now, it'll Roost because, since this is a stall team, I can't carry six pokemon able to either outspeed and kill it at 50, or kill it at 100.
I think I should cement my position again. I don't feel SR is broken in the same way Torn-T was or Genesect was. I do, however, feel like its one of the unhealthiest things for the meta. It's incredibly difficult to remove (and anyone who says otherwise can't use D-Nite/Sun/Kyu-B being broken without it as an argument (Feel free to make the case that those are broken even with SR, however. Sun in particular)). There's zero drawbacks to using it, you don't have to bend over backwards to fit it on your team like you do with an SR weak 'mon. You guys get to choose between Terrakion, Garchomp, Azelf, Mamoswine, Skarmory, Ferrothorn, Heatran, Jirachi, etc. to set SR, while on the other hand, the pool to get rid of it is limited to Starmie, Forre, Tenta (on one team type), and Xatu. The ratio is absurdly unbalanced. When you look at A. How few counters there are B. How unreliable they are and C. How easy it is to punish them (like 'oh crap, he'll use my Forretress's spin to get X in and sweep me'), SR is 'unstoppable', even if it isn't going on a rampage with the power it holds.
I have to disagree here, too. You seem to be insinuating that an SR-less environment encourages 'wasting turns' (If you don't mean that, I apologize, as you aren't clear at all). Not having SR on your side of the field doesn't turn the game into switching to and from counters the entire time (the only metagame where this happen, GSC, actually lacks SR). How many times have you played without SR on your opponents field? You mentioned you once laddered to 1700 without it, so you must know (also, this isn't much of an achievement, I hope you realize). Don't you play differently when you don't have it up? I know, since I've recently gotten into DP OU, and the lead game means I can't always get it up, or they're carrying an unrevealed Starmie. All of a sudden, wearing down Skarmory becomes so much more difficult without that 12%. I have to be extremely careful to keep my CB Tyranitar or Specs Lucario alive, since otherwise, I'm screwed. If my opponent has Swampert or Gengar, it becomes a game of removing them before I can remove Skarmory and set up for a sweep. With SR up, it's a whole different game. I'll I have to do is keep forcing it in via my Gyarados or Crunch locked Tyranitar, knowing it will take 12% in addition to the chip damage. That starts to add up, and eventually, I'll force it into a position where my sweeper wins. Much less strategic on my part.
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