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Evolution vs Intelligent Design

Well, that does depend on the definition of "apes". Humans did not evolve from present day apes. But the term can quite reasonably be used to refer to the common ancestors of humans and other ape species. The term can also include humans; such usage is increasingly common due to taxonomists preferring monophyletic groups - ones that incorporate a common ancestor and all its descendants. (Similarly, the term 'dinosaurs' is increasingly used including the birds as well as the 'non-avian dinosaurs'.)
It should be borne in mind also that the chimpanzee-like ancestor of humans is also the human-like ancestor of chimpanzees. To my knowledge, while there are a few candidate fossils of this ancestor, we don't know too much about it (given many of the fossils are a badly damaged skull, or a jawbone and teeth - not complete skeletons.)
 
Speaking technically, the common ancestor of human and apes has, for a long time, been extinct and replaced by the more modern species. Therefore I feel that using a term that describes modern creatures to describe a creature that no longer exists is kind of confusing/pointless.
 
Guys, the Miller-Urey experiment only concerned the formation of amino acids (essential building blocks of proteins)

That doesn't actually matter. It demonstrates that the "Can't get complexity out of simple parts by natural processes" argument is wrong.
 
Evolution has to be real, because I am NOT playing with a fucking chimchar the whole game. Besides, how else would we get Jolteon and Vaporeon?

Lol, joking aside, I love how people never accept the theory that maybe a higher being made evolution happen? I beleive in God. There I said it. But I think evolution is real, evidence >>>> a book. But I feel like maybe God made everything happen, random chance is too statistically unlikely.
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D SERIES
 
Lol, joking aside, I love how people never accept the theory that maybe a higher being made evolution happen? I beleive in God. There I said it. But I think evolution is real, evidence >>>> a book. But I feel like maybe God made everything happen, random chance is too statistically unlikely.

Well for one there is no theory, or to be more specific, there is no legitimate scientific theory that states that there is a deity behind evolution. That might be why some people don't accept that "theory."
 
Clearly God created the world, if you look closely at atoms, you can see in tiny text "Made by God, in September 1, 5509 B.C."
This also shows that God thought that the Byzantine Empire was correct in their date of creation, or at least the relationship between when Jesus was born, and the creation.
 
Look, the theory of evolution says that all life is formed from a single celled organism. This organism aparently appeared from nowhere, somehow. How does something come from nothing, its not possible. Based on that fact there has to be a creator. Also, look at the complex of our bodies, the brain can do so many things(im not gonna go into each one). How could these complexities come about by random mutation? Evolution is not logical, i learned this stuff, i got a 98 in biology, dont tell me i dont know the theory well. There are too many holes in it.
 
Evolution has to be real, because I am NOT playing with a fucking chimchar the whole game. Besides, how else would we get Jolteon and Vaporeon?

Lol, joking aside, I love how people never accept the theory that maybe a higher being made evolution happen? I beleive in God. There I said it. But I think evolution is real, evidence >>>> a book. But I feel like maybe God made everything happen, random chance is too statistically unlikely.

Specified complexity is bullshit.

Edit:

Look, the theory of evolution says that all life is formed from a single celled organism. This organism aparently appeared from nowhere, somehow. How does something come from nothing, its not possible. Based on that fact there has to be a creator. Also, look at the complex of our bodies, the brain can do so many things(im not gonna go into each one). How could these complexities come about by random mutation? Evolution is not logical, i learned this stuff, i got a 98 in biology, dont tell me i dont know the theory well. There are too many holes in it.

See above. Also, an organism did not "appear from nowhere". The only ones making that claim are those who believe in special creation. And yes, I can safely say you do not understand evolution very well based on your statements in this post.
 
Evolution is not logical, i learned this stuff, i got a 98 in biology, dont tell me i dont know the theory well.
woah!! you got an A in one biology course, you really do know this stuff. Certainly you know better than 99% of biology doctorates who are fooled by this ridiculous theory of evolution.

Seriously, your comment about the human body being too complex to have been evolved clearly shows that you do not understand the theory.
 
Look, the theory of evolution says that all life is formed from a single celled organism. This organism aparently appeared from nowhere, somehow. How does something come from nothing, its not possible. Based on that fact there has to be a creator. Also, look at the complex of our bodies, the brain can do so many things(im not gonna go into each one). How could these complexities come about by random mutation? Evolution is not logical, i learned this stuff, i got a 98 in biology, dont tell me i dont know the theory well. There are too many holes in it.

I got 100 in Physics, clearly, I know what I'm talking about when I say that God wrote on the atoms... This is what we call a logical fallacy (appeal to authority). I'm glad that you got a 98 in the class, I believe that shows that teachers can give grades without personal bias. Unless of course you had a creationist teaching evolution, that can lead to ID.

You have abiogenesis confused with evolution. And if something can't come from nothing who made God? If we accept that God is God, then why can't that trait apply to the universe? I actually believe in God, but for emotional rather then logical reasons.

Can a simply lego block create something more complicated? Yes.
Is it sometimes difficult to understand? Yes.
Is it easier to say God did it? Yes.
Is that necessarily true? No.

Edit: the banner ad for this thread is was a link to http://www.everystudent.com/features/isthere.html?gclid=COvdvPqXw58CFRQhnAodcXmO0w. Thanks everyone.
 
Evolution is not logical

On the contrary, evolution is perfectly logical. So much so that to me it has some of the character of a mathematical theorem, as well as a scientific theory. To whit:

Given the following:

1) Organisms differ from each other. (This is an elementary observation).
2) Those differences affect the ability of the organism to survive and reproduce. (There are many examples: being faster, requiring less energy, being more social, having more directionality to one's light sensor, and so on).
3) Those differences can be inherited. (This is easily observed in people, and in animals bred in captivity).

Then evolution is the logical consequence.

For it to explain the origin of all species, the main thing we then need is enough time. Which we have - multiple lines of evidence point to the Earth being OLD.
(We also need a way to separate breeding populations, so that one species can split into two. Geographical separation by tectonic or climatic changes does the trick, though it's not the only method.)

This organism aparently appeared from nowhere, somehow. How does something come from nothing, its not possible.
Good thing the organism didn't appear from nowhere then. It appeared from some situation with a load of chemicals around. Where did the atoms in the chemicals come from? Some from supernovae, others directly from Big Bang Nucleosynthesis, when E=mc^2 ran 'in reverse', forming matter out of energy. Where did the energy come from? Well _that_ may have come from nothing. But to get a load of energy out of nothing doesn't seem all that ridiculous (and if you think God created the energy, you need invoke no further role for God).

And in any case, evolution does not claim to address the origin of life.

Evolution is not logical, i learned this stuff, i got a 98 in biology, dont tell me i dont know the theory well.
I've no way of knowing how good your teacher was, or what the content of the exam was. On the evidence of your post, you DON'T know the theory all that well.

There are too many holes in it.
So name some.
 
Double-post for rebutting this website: http://www.everystudent.com/features/isthere.html?gclid=COvdvPqXw58CFRQhnAodcXmO0w

"The Earth...its size is perfect" - Misleading. A habitable terrestrial planet needs to fall within a certain size RANGE. Venus is smaller than Earth, and it has an atmosphere.

"If the Earth were any further away from the sun, we would all freeze. Any closer and we would burn up. Even a fractional variance in the Earth's position to the sun would make life on Earth impossible." - Strange how the Earth's distance from the Sun varies by 3% over the course of the year then. Again, there's a habitable RANGE. It's fairly slim, but it's not ridiculously small - and anyway, it moves outwards as a star warms over its life, boosting the chance that for some time period a planet will be habitable.

"And our moon is the perfect size and distance from the Earth for its gravitational pull. The moon creates important ocean tides and movement so ocean waters do not stagnate" - Ocean currents are driven by many forces, not just the Moon's gravity. And again, there can probably be allowed a fair bit of variation.

"on our Earth, there is a system designed which removes salt from the water and then distributes that water throughout the globe." - so the way heat evaporates water leaving salt behind, and that water vapour can then condense and fall as rain having moved to a different location, is "designed" now? I rather think one would struggle to design a world with oceans but WITHOUT a fluid cycle.

"The eye...can distinguish among seven million colors. It has automatic focusing and handles an astounding 1.5 million messages -- simultaneously." - and yet many animals have eyes that better ours on some or all aspects.

"evolution alone does not fully explain the initial source of the eye or the brain -- the start of living organisms from nonliving matter." - and to expect it to is to show an ignorance of scientific theories in general

"There is no logical necessity for a universe that obeys rules, let alone one that abides by the rules of mathematics." - in an atheistic perspective, such a Universe seems essential for life. By contrast, for a theist, God would be entirely capable of maintaining life in a disorderly Universe. A disorderly Universe would thus indicate a higher power keeping us alive and protecting us from the disorder - an orderly Universe is not evidence for God.

"Natural, biological causes are completely lacking as an explanation when programmed information is involved" - this is not entirely true; there are ideas, but they are sketchy. However

"You cannot find instruction, precise information like this, without someone intentionally constructing it." - this is dogma.

"I was..." - personal accounts of this nature are not evidence for God

"What proof did Jesus give for claiming to be divine? He did what people can't do. Jesus performed miracles." - people who wrote well after Jesus's death said he performed miracles. Not what one would generally call reliable sources.

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In science we evaluate a hypothesis by two means. Firstly, we make predictions based on the hypothesis. The predictions are of future OBSERVATIONS - they need not actually be of future events. (In geology, palaeobiology, and cosmology, we predict future observations of past events). If the predictions turn out true, the hypothesis is strengthened. But it can never be proven 100%, since it's possible another hypothesis would predict the same result (within measurement precision) in the case.
Note that it is not valid to base a hypothesis on observations, and then use the fact that those same observations fit the hypothesis to claim the hypothesis is correct. One must make new observations to test the hypothesis. (If you go 30 battles without meeting a Zubat in Mt Moon, you may suspect Zubat's aren't as common as they should be, perhaps because your cartridge is glitched. But you must forget about those 30 and start counting ANOTHER run of battles in order to test that hypothesis.)

On the other hand, if we make an observation that contradicts the hypothesis, and the observations are valid, then the hypothesis may be disproven. Note that merely being unable to explain a result in terms of a hypothesis does not disprove it, it may simply indicate some details need to be worked out. (This is more common for general and/or qualitative hypotheses, than detailed mathematical ones.)

A hypothesis is thus strengthened in two ways - by making successful predictions, and by not being disproved. (They are two sides of the same coin really).

For evolution, there ARE observations that would disprove it. "Fossil rabbits in the Cambrian" as one scientists put it. Basically, any fossils where they really shouldn't be would at the very least throw a huge wrench in the theory. Alternatively, definite evidence that a species had over time worsened in ability to survive in a constant environment. For example, keeping an antibiotic-resistant bacterial strain in a culture with antibiotic present, and finding it change to a strain vulnerable to the antibiotic. None of these observations have been made and validated.

Applying this to God, it seems there are few if any predictions one can make based on the existence of God. (Revelation's pretty predictive I suppose). But worse, there is no way to DISPROVE the existence of God. A hypothesis that cannot be disproven is not strong: rather it is very weak, for it is then deprived of the ability to be strengthened by NOT being disproved.
 
Just adding to a few of the thing cantab said:


"The Earth...its size is perfect" - Misleading. A habitable terrestrial planet needs to fall within a certain size RANGE. Venus is smaller than Earth, and it has an atmosphere.

Not only this but if life were to arise anywhere then it would evolve to live in its surroundings, so it would evolve some mechanism for countering greater or lesser gravity, or just not evolve beyond a certain point (like if the gravity was too high, then only a small enough creature could survive, otherwise it would be crushed under its own weight).

"And our moon is the perfect size and distance from the Earth for its gravitational pull. The moon creates important ocean tides and movement so ocean waters do not stagnate" - Ocean currents are driven by many forces, not just the Moon's gravity. And again, there can probably be allowed a fair bit of variation.

Also, isn't the moon moving away from us at a rate of, like, 1 mm a year or something?

"on our Earth, there is a system designed which removes salt from the water and then distributes that water throughout the globe." - so the way heat evaporates water leaving salt behind, and that water vapour can then condense and fall as rain having moved to a different location, is "designed" now? I rather think one would struggle to design a world with oceans but WITHOUT a fluid cycle.

Not to mention the fact that if, y'know, a god had designed a planet that supported his only creations, he might want to fill the majority of it with stuff that kept them alive when they drank it (fresh water) rather then stuff that killed them when they did (salt water), rather then the other way around.

"The eye...can distinguish among seven million colors. It has automatic focusing and handles an astounding 1.5 million messages -- simultaneously." - and yet many animals have eyes that better ours on some or all aspects.

And, as far a "design" goes, whenever the eyes receive input they send the images to the brain upside-down and then the brain has to re-orient them before it can use them correctly.



"Natural, biological causes are completely lacking as an explanation when programmed information is involved" - this is not entirely true; there are ideas, but they are sketchy. However.

What does this mean, exactly? Could someone clarify? Thanks.
 
-sigh- cant we all just get Along T_T anyway i believe it was Darwin who said.. " Whats wrong with God playing around with a few designs before we came along "
i think it was him correct me if im wrong but im almost positive it was him.
 
What does this mean, exactly? Could someone clarify? Thanks.
The question is basically "how did genes, and the means to turn them into proteins, arise". We don't know the answer for certain - we don't even know which of genes or proteins came first. But there are hypotheses around; we are by no means "completely lacking an explanation".
 
-sigh- cant we all just get Along T_T

Oh don't even turn this into that. This isn't an argument over some subjective thing. This is literally one group trying to force their religious beliefs upon others by dressing it up and calling it science. If people that believed in ID kept quiet then sure, we could just get along, however that is not the case.
 
The question is basically "how did genes, and the means to turn them into proteins, arise". We don't know the answer for certain - we don't even know which of genes or proteins came first. But there are hypotheses around; we are by no means "completely lacking an explanation".

Ah, thank you.
 
all im saying is why does it matter? who cares if people believe in this or that. If other people are ignorrant and others are smart then why bother explaining cant everyone just stick to whatever they believe in without trying to change other people's minds?
 
all im saying is why does it matter? who cares if people believe in this or that. If other people are ignorrant and others are smart then why bother explaining cant everyone just stick to whatever they believe in without trying to change other people's minds?

Perhaps you should ask that of the people who are attempting to smuggle creationism into schools under the rubric of "intelligent design" (a movement which fortunately seems moribund at the moment thanks to recent court decisions). The struggles with the Texas Science Board in the past few years are good examples of the sort of power ignorance can wield over the education of children. Faulty reasoning and denial of scientific evidence on spurious grounds are a detriment to society as a whole. Why should we tacitly accept the perpetuation of ignorance, scientific illiteracy, and poor critical thinking skills among the human population, in a world that is increasingly interconnected and dependent upon science and technology?
 
Perhaps you should ask that of the people who are attempting to smuggle creationism into schools under the rubric of "intelligent design" (a movement which fortunately seems moribund at the moment thanks to recent court decisions). The struggles with the Texas Science Board in the past few years are good examples of the sort of power ignorance can wield over the education of children. Faulty reasoning and denial of scientific evidence on spurious grounds are a detriment to society as a whole. Why should we tacitly accept the perpetuation of ignorance, scientific illiteracy, and poor critical thinking skills among the human population, in a world that is increasingly interconnected and dependent upon science and technology?

I see what you're getting at. But this doesn not Help me understand math any better or computers anybetter, we are increasing in technology in those Fields and Science has subsections its not all just Science. we are increasing in certain fields of science and some do not apply to others.
 
all im saying is why does it matter? who cares if people believe in this or that. If other people are ignorrant and others are smart then why bother explaining cant everyone just stick to whatever they believe in without trying to change other people's minds?

This comes back to my original claim.
I think those in favour of ID fall into two groups: those who are religiously motivated, and those who do not understand evolution and natural selection.
For those who are religiously motivated, there is little that can be done, other than make it clear to onlookers that their motivations are religious. For those who lack knowledge and understanding, however, we can educate them, and also correct their mistakes so that onlookers are not misled by them.
 
"If the Earth were any further away from the sun, we would all freeze. Any closer and we would burn up. Even a fractional variance in the Earth's position to the sun would make life on Earth impossible." - Strange how the Earth's distance from the Sun varies by 3% over the course of the year then. Again, there's a habitable RANGE. It's fairly slim, but it's not ridiculously small - and anyway, it moves outwards as a star warms over its life, boosting the chance that for some time period a planet will be habitable.

"And our moon is the perfect size and distance from the Earth for its gravitational pull. The moon creates important ocean tides and movement so ocean waters do not stagnate" - Ocean currents are driven by many forces, not just the Moon's gravity. And again, there can probably be allowed a fair bit of variation.

Also, both of these fall to the anthropic principle. Our life is perfectly suited to the environment we're in because we have evolved over a long period of time in this environment. You can't say "Oh, our environment is perfectly suitable, therefore we must have been designed for it". It's like saying a hole is perfectly shaped to fit a particular puddle.

"The eye...can distinguish among seven million colors. It has automatic focusing and handles an astounding 1.5 million messages -- simultaneously." - and yet many animals have eyes that better ours on some or all aspects.

And then there are people who have birth defects, colourblindness, etc.

"evolution alone does not fully explain the initial source of the eye or the brain -- the start of living organisms from nonliving matter." - and to expect it to is to show an ignorance of scientific theories in general

The brain, no. There are intermediate stages of ocular development in the animal kingdom. The tuatara has a vestigial third eye on it's forehead. There are fish that have light-sensitive cells under their scales. Plants, which are biologically closest to bacterial ancestors, are light sensitive in a manner to achieve maximum sunlight exposure for food.

Furthermore, holes in the development chain are not the same as contrary evidence. That's another of the fundamental mistakes of the ID proponents; they confuse a lack of evidence with contrary evidence. The fact that a competing theory has a gap in it's evidence chain does not make your one, with no evidence in it's favour, more appropriate.

Ultimately, the religious diehards of ID demand that every single step of evolution to this point be mapped out explicitly, otherwise they won't believe it; they're not going to accept on the basis of evidence no matter what happens.

"There is no logical necessity for a universe that obeys rules, let alone one that abides by the rules of mathematics." - in an atheistic perspective, such a Universe seems essential for life. By contrast, for a theist, God would be entirely capable of maintaining life in a disorderly Universe. A disorderly Universe would thus indicate a higher power keeping us alive and protecting us from the disorder - an orderly Universe is not evidence for God.

The other problem here is that the mathematical explanation of the universe is a description of what we observe; we're not forcing the universe to fit our rules, we're finding rules that the universe fits. It's impossible for the universe NOT to fit mathematical analysis.


"What proof did Jesus give for claiming to be divine? He did what people can't do. Jesus performed miracles." - people who wrote well after Jesus's death said he performed miracles. Not what one would generally call reliable sources.

In fact, nothing in the Bible can be used as conclusive evidence for this reason. Furthermore, there is no way to translate cultural contexts. Without the modern level of literacy or scientific knowledge, things that were described as miracles may have been the product of the author being unable to describe the event.
 
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