Welcome to the entire thread. Also, you forgot X-Scissor as an option for slot 4.
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Excadrill
- Thread starter Rising_Dusk
- Start date
424 Speed is a huge loss. Base 100 Scarfers are now faster than you. Why on earth would you run a set that nobody uses to beat another set nobody uses? Roopushin never countered Doryuuzu to begin with, as 252 HP gets 2HKOed by EQ and OHKOed at +2.
You're supposed to use it to check Doryuuzu, which is something it's always going to be able to do no matter what it runs.
He gets X-Scissor:O Didn't know that.
If both pokemon are at +0 at the start of the fight than Roopushin will win. Drain Punch will heal much of the EQ damage and if that doesn't outright kill it then MAch Punch on the next turn will.If Roopushin already has a Bulk Up and then Doryuuzu comes in, it is downright screwed.With Spikes support the LO Iron Fist might be able to KO sometimes, I can't run the calcs here.So whoever has their statu ups on the field first will most certainly win. If they are both neutral on the field, advantage is Roopushin.
The problem is that obviously, your opponent won't set up (or stay in, for that matter) if you already have a Roopushin out, and the only time they're really going to face each other is when you switch in Roopushin as Doryuuzu sets up/kills something, so you probably won't run into the situation where both are neutral.
Regarding that earlier spread, I didnt optimize my EV's. Im sure he doesnt need all 252 Def EV's to survive that Mach Punch.
Hmmm. It seems that 191 Defense is the least Dory can have without being having a chance to be OHKO'd after SR, but that doesnt leave him with enough speed EV's to outspeed +nature scarfed 100's. 118 Def/140 Spd Dory can outspeed those scarfers, while only being OHKO'd by that Mach Punch 7.69% of the time after SR.
Very specialized spread, and he still has things like Gliscor and Bronzong to deal with, but it helps eliminate one potential check.
Hmmm. It seems that 191 Defense is the least Dory can have without being having a chance to be OHKO'd after SR, but that doesnt leave him with enough speed EV's to outspeed +nature scarfed 100's. 118 Def/140 Spd Dory can outspeed those scarfers, while only being OHKO'd by that Mach Punch 7.69% of the time after SR.
Very specialized spread, and he still has things like Gliscor and Bronzong to deal with, but it helps eliminate one potential check.
You'd be surprised. If either came in to revenge kill something and then the other came in, they're at +0. Ideally they'd take one turn to get a stat up in but if the opponent is that big a threat sometimes you have to go for the straight KO. Also there have been several instances where these two are the last 1-2 pokemon are either team left and they have to square off against each other. Sure, in perfect scenarios neither would show their face or switch in but pokemon almost never has ideal circumstances. Often your better options are out. Your phazer is already dead, your entry hazards got spun, etc. As they say, shit happens.
I gotta say, I'm pretty excited about this guy. Not because I want to sweep with him, but because it's a good excuse for putting Weezing on my team. Calcs, assuming 252 attack evs, a swords dance, and a jolly nature (speed ties and not being revenged by scarftrio will easily outweigh adamant's power), and 252hp/252def Weezing:
+2 Jolly Rock Slide: 32% - 37.7%
+2 Jolly LO Rock Slide: 41.3% - 48.8
+2 Jolly Return: 43.4% - 51.2%
+2 Jolly LO Return: 56.3% - 66.5%
So, since nothing OHKOs, Weezing can switch in for free on EQ, and immediately threaten to completely cripple it with WoW. As well, I would expect that non-LO variants will be quite common, needing the immunity from balloon to get in safely in the first place. And better yet, X-scissor non-LO variants can't even 2HKO, leaving Weezing a second chance to WoW, or a free Pain Split/Fire Blast.
Are there better ways to wall him? Maybe. Gliscor isn't OHKO'd by boosted LO return either, and retains EQ immunity, threatening an EQ back. Bronzong and Claydol will also be a pain for non-X-Scissor variants, also threatening powerful ground attacks or status. All that said, though, it does place Weezing in a very small category of walls that can deal with him at all, and is the only one with burn capabilities.
My verdict: If this guy is really as centralizing as he's made out to be, then there could be a place on OU teams for Weezing, an awesome but long overlooked physical wall.
+2 Jolly Rock Slide: 32% - 37.7%
+2 Jolly LO Rock Slide: 41.3% - 48.8
+2 Jolly Return: 43.4% - 51.2%
+2 Jolly LO Return: 56.3% - 66.5%
So, since nothing OHKOs, Weezing can switch in for free on EQ, and immediately threaten to completely cripple it with WoW. As well, I would expect that non-LO variants will be quite common, needing the immunity from balloon to get in safely in the first place. And better yet, X-scissor non-LO variants can't even 2HKO, leaving Weezing a second chance to WoW, or a free Pain Split/Fire Blast.
Are there better ways to wall him? Maybe. Gliscor isn't OHKO'd by boosted LO return either, and retains EQ immunity, threatening an EQ back. Bronzong and Claydol will also be a pain for non-X-Scissor variants, also threatening powerful ground attacks or status. All that said, though, it does place Weezing in a very small category of walls that can deal with him at all, and is the only one with burn capabilities.
My verdict: If this guy is really as centralizing as he's made out to be, then there could be a place on OU teams for Weezing, an awesome but long overlooked physical wall.
I don't know why, but when I see Doryuuzu, I don't think 'Holy shit what an amazing sweeper' I see a potential Pokémon that will be amazing in stall and against stall. He is immune to Toxic Spikes and Thunder Wave, and a .25x resistance to Stealth Rock. I am Theorymonning right now, but a Stall oriented set could be amazing.
Doryuuzu @Leftovers
Sand Throw
Bulky EV spread with Bold nature I guess
-Rapid Spin
-Toxic
-Substitute
-Protect / Iron Defense
The point of this set is to Toxic Stall using speed. In the sand, he can outspend everything, set up 101 HP subs, and toxic, protect, Iron Defense, and Rapid Spin away. This is pure Theorymon, so if this set sucks, I would understand.
Doryuuzu @Leftovers
Sand Throw
Bulky EV spread with Bold nature I guess
-Rapid Spin
-Toxic
-Substitute
-Protect / Iron Defense
The point of this set is to Toxic Stall using speed. In the sand, he can outspend everything, set up 101 HP subs, and toxic, protect, Iron Defense, and Rapid Spin away. This is pure Theorymon, so if this set sucks, I would understand.
I think that even though that set is good it doesn't really break stall much better than regular Doryuuzu does with SD/EQ/Rock Slide/Rapid Spin. Since the only things that really wall this set - Gliscor/Skarmory- still wall your set, it seems that it is a good set but still outclassed by the regular Doryuuzu build.
wow boyofrito. Epic bump. xD
Anyway, I actually don't think Dory is that great of a sweeper anymore. In the beginning of GenV, he could 6-0 teams easily. But so many common pokemon counter him. Skarmory, Gliscor, Hippowdon, Bronzong, Roobushin, Azumarill, etc.
I'm not saying that Dory is bad, but his counters are all viable in OU, meaning that you don't add a useless pokemon to your team by countering him. I'd say high OU, but by no means broken.
Anyway, I actually don't think Dory is that great of a sweeper anymore. In the beginning of GenV, he could 6-0 teams easily. But so many common pokemon counter him. Skarmory, Gliscor, Hippowdon, Bronzong, Roobushin, Azumarill, etc.
I'm not saying that Dory is bad, but his counters are all viable in OU, meaning that you don't add a useless pokemon to your team by countering him. I'd say high OU, but by no means broken.
The only reason Doryuuzu seems "nowhere near broken" is because his most popular set is suboptimal and doesn't fully utilize the amount of sweeping power he has at his disposal.
Jolly Baloon Dory has a couple of perks, such as Spikes immunity, and setting up on EQ walls without a secondary attack, but it also strips him away of any hope he has of getting past his his usual counters, like Gliscor, who can be taken care of with an Adamant +2 LO Rock Slide flinch and subsequent Return, or Breloom, who can be KOed on the switch-in with Return and minimal prior damage (like one turn of LO recoil). You can also 2HKO Skarm with +2 Rock Slide, but such is not the case with Jolly Balloon.
Also, LO sets give him some breathing room to switch in on resists, whereas with Balloon, you have to play extremely conservatively. With most players, he's effectively MIA until the very last turn or something really fast needs to die.
Jolly Baloon Dory has a couple of perks, such as Spikes immunity, and setting up on EQ walls without a secondary attack, but it also strips him away of any hope he has of getting past his his usual counters, like Gliscor, who can be taken care of with an Adamant +2 LO Rock Slide flinch and subsequent Return, or Breloom, who can be KOed on the switch-in with Return and minimal prior damage (like one turn of LO recoil). You can also 2HKO Skarm with +2 Rock Slide, but such is not the case with Jolly Balloon.
Also, LO sets give him some breathing room to switch in on resists, whereas with Balloon, you have to play extremely conservatively. With most players, he's effectively MIA until the very last turn or something really fast needs to die.
Definitely agree with SJCrew. Life Orb dory just runs through teams much better than balloon dory does. To be honest the only reason I run balloon dory when i do is that it makes a fantastic check to other dory and let's be honest those are quite hard to come by.
This is true. But, as you said, it's not his most common set.
People try to counter what's most common, not what works best. Normally they coincide, but not always. Why counter the strongest sweeper, when you can counter the most abundant?
With the crazy amount speed he gets from Sand Throw I figured my Dory could sacrifice some speed for bulk, and so far nobody's been the wiser.
I run the usual Balloon Dory:
Swords Dance/EQ/Rock Slide/ X-Scissor
Adamant nature. 252 Atk/ 156 Speed/ 100 HP
It's a big "Sacrifice" in the speed department(I only reach 502 speed), but I've found it extremely useful in taking some weaker SE hits, as I often live with low HP, but still stick around long enough to take them out. I'm not sure if I need any more speed to beat some threats(I can't do calcs), but I figured 502 was a good number.
I run the usual Balloon Dory:
Swords Dance/EQ/Rock Slide/ X-Scissor
Adamant nature. 252 Atk/ 156 Speed/ 100 HP
It's a big "Sacrifice" in the speed department(I only reach 502 speed), but I've found it extremely useful in taking some weaker SE hits, as I often live with low HP, but still stick around long enough to take them out. I'm not sure if I need any more speed to beat some threats(I can't do calcs), but I figured 502 was a good number.
That's not what I'm talking about. I'm saying Doryuuzu is way stronger than a lot of people seem to think because his most popular set is not his best. I think it was just a fad that caught on early and now no one knows how to use anything else.
You still outspeed everything in the game with an Adamant nature, and do you know how many OHKOs you get off of EQ alone with both that and LO? He's stupidly powerful, but most people seem to have forgotten that. It is pretty fun to remind them on ladder though. :D
I agree with you.
But you said he has a smaller counter list than many people think. I'm saying that his "normal" set does have that size a counter list.
You're right that LO has much more power and can muscle down Gliscor and the like. I'm saying that Balloon Dory cannot.
In terms of "countering or checking" this mole, would one turn to ABILITY or Pokemon?
I was looking at abilities, and Solid Rock Balloon Camerupt (Fire/Ground) came to mind. So long as the mole has yet to Swords Dance of course.
Though a Brick Break will hurt.
Shame about things having to run Fire moves or Hidden Power Fire. I'd rather Water move (Boil Over, Surf, Hidden Power) or use a Fighting Hidden Power.
I was looking at abilities, and Solid Rock Balloon Camerupt (Fire/Ground) came to mind. So long as the mole has yet to Swords Dance of course.
Though a Brick Break will hurt.
Shame about things having to run Fire moves or Hidden Power Fire. I'd rather Water move (Boil Over, Surf, Hidden Power) or use a Fighting Hidden Power.
I'm guessing that people will be carrying Technician Breloom with Mach Punch to check this BAMF mole. Also, with Drought Ninetails and Drizzle Politoed, I guess people will have to force this guy out with weather teams and weaken him bit by bit with entry hazards until the mole is in revenge killing range.
>>>>Assuming balloon is broken.
d) mold breaker doesn't affect sand throw.