Expanded Tier List - What If?

What if Vulpix could be found on Route 112
Speaking of Hoenn mons that would really like to be available earlier...

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In Route 111 (the route north of Mauville City), there is a small pond next to the Winstrate house. The Old Rod would yield you the usual Magikarp as well as criminally underleveled Goldeens (levels 5-10 in RSE, level 5 in ORAS). Barboach can also be fished here, but only with the Good & Super Rods. However, what if Barboach can also be Old Rodded in Route 111?

Right off the bat, this is a game changer for RSE. There are only 3 Ground-types available pre-Wattson: Marshtomp, Nincada, and Geodude, one of which is a starter and the other cannot hurt Wattson on its own. Barboach would add much needed variety in this roster, and while it would come really underleveled (assuming it comes in similar level ranges as Goldeen) and only have Mud Slap, the Cycling Road offers a premium training spot for Barboach to catch up to the rest of the team. Even if the cyclists' Magnemites prove too strong initially, some of them are gracious enough to present you with equally underleveled Voltorbs for your Barboach to get the levels it needs to take on Magnemites on its own. It won't be long before you get your STABs in Water Gun and more importantly Magnitude to cruise you along until you get your much superior STABs post-Norman.

While Barboach's stats are awful enough that it won't be a comfortable sweep against Wattson, it at least is fast enough to outrun the Magnemite and KO it before it tries anything funny, and having a good Wattson matchup is better than what 90% of available mons can say here. While there are a decent number of Water-types available before Flannery, nearly all of them are saddled with problems such as having to settle with Water Gun or suffer through a notable babying period to gain the moves/stats to comfortably beat her, assuming they even beat her at all (lol Lombre and Goldeen). While Barboach's stats are definitely poor at this stage, access to Magnitude and Amnesia should give Barboach a potential avenue to 1v3 Flannery regardless, just so long as Magnitude RNG doesn't screw with you too badly vs Torkoal. Heck, if you managed to hold on to Mud Slap this whole time, Whiscash can even contribute against Norman's Slakings by cutting their accuracy. A would-be solid Pokemon in all of its major fights if it was just available earlier (and even current RSE Barboach is already a B tier Pokemon despite this drawback since it becomes Whiscash with Surf and level 31 Earthquake almost immediately).

In ORAS, this availability issue becomes FAR more pronounced, as pretty much all of its competition, such as Azumarill, Gyarados, Sharpedo, and Crawdaunt got substantially better, so ORAS Barboach very noticeably lags behind at this rate. Having Barboach be available before Wattson would give it a valuable standing amongst its Water comtemporaries as opposed to being the thoroughly outclassed pick it is now, especially when the early Bulldoze TM in Mauville would let it pick up steam right away.
 
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In Platinum, what if the 'kid could be found on Route 212? Maybe swap out Kirlia's encounter tables for it since Ralts's already available earlier. I think it vaults from D/E tier to high B, borderline A (assuming trading is available).

Can feast on all the Water types near and around the area to get to level 30 and evolve. Already has a solid natural learnset up till that point. If you want, you could spend the Brick Break TM on it - which is contested sure, but not a completely unreasonable spend. Maybe aim for an end game moveset of all three elemental punches + Brick Break. Which again, given Platinum's plethora of shards, doesn't seem totally unreasonable.

It would have very good pacing. Good EXP group, no real dead spots, evolves at regular intervals. Never really yearning for moves, never excessively fishing for optimal matchups.

And speaking of matchups - obviously getting it at this point yields a terrific A tier performance versus Wake, who is pretty difficult relatively speaking. The remaining Gym matchups are probably B or C tier. But it submits a very solid A tier performance against Cyrus 3, another notoriously difficult boss.

E4 performance wouldn't change of course, since you could get it before then anyway. But the Wake and Cyrus 3 matchups probably take it to a high B tier level at least, in my opinion.
 
Stunky probably doesn't have the firepower even if it does have a good defensive matchup. Murkrow looks solid on paper.

Fantina really comes down to her Mismagius whose Confuse Ray throws a wrench in things on top of its already great coverage attacking moves wise. I would say Murkrow ranks behind Probopass, Umbreon, and Lopunny in that order as mons you could realistically get by that point, that have the best 1v1 matchup against that Mismagius. And I'm using "realistically" pretty loosely given two of those mons are friendship based evolutions.

Adding to the Stunky vs Fantina discussion, I'm wrapping up a playthrough where I traded a Stunky egg in at the beginning; the Stunky was bred to start the game with Crunch. Even with Crunch, Stunky was only able to win the 1v1 pending favorable Confuse Ray rolls
 
However, what if Barboach can also be Old Rodded in Route 111?

While Whiscash has some real advantages over Swampert (mainly much ealier Earthquake), its biggest problem is that it misses its best matchups, so an earlier availability would go a long way. Well, and also that it is a Good Rod encounter. Why on earth do Good Rod Pokemon have a 20 level encounter range? I wish the evolution to Whishcash would be instantly but there is also a good chance that you fish up like a level 15 Barboach after gym 5, who is critically underleveled.

While the routes around Mauvile City do have a decent amount of trainers with Grass Pokemon, leveling up Barboach should still not be much of a problem. Magneton can be annoying with SonicBoom, but Barboach should still have a rather easy time sweeping Wattson. The routes between gym 3 and 4 match up well for Barboach, so having it reach level 30 for Flannery should not be difficult. One should really delay its evolution by one level, though, for the level 31 Earthquake. And Whiscash easily sweeps Flannery. Without the evolution Barboach does have trouble, because even with Torkoal's Modest nature, Body Slam is doing a ton, while Magnitude and Water Gun would not even be 3HKOs. Norman's Slaking is a though matchup but it is possible to relearn Tickle in Fallarbor Town, which does allow it to beat Slaking 1v1. After gym 5, Whiscash plays the same as in vanilla.

If Barboach would be this early, it would likely be A tier, despite its medicore stats. Either way, it would just be nice to have more Ground type Pokemon options before Wattson. His Magneton gatekeeps like 90% of available Pokemon that you can get before Route 111.
 
What if Phanpy could be found on Route 110 and learned Magnitude in Emerald?
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Despite Phanpy and Donphan being pretty good tank Pokemon, in Emerald they can't really show that. Their biggest problems are that Phanpy becomes available really late in the Safari Zone, just before parts of the game where it can't help much anymore, and that they don't have a Ground STAB move until Donphan learns Earthquake at level 49. They can't even learn Dig with the TM like most other Ground types can. So, while they have good stats, without STAB and few EVs their attacks don't hit as hard as you would like. Phanpy also has the very good Pickup ability but can't use it because it loses it when it evolves to Donphan, which it can do as soon as you can catch it. Because of these issues I put them in D rank in my tier list.

Phanpy feels like a Pokemon that could come much earlier to make use of its Pickup ability and also should have an early Ground STAB.
Lets assume Phanpy learns Magnitude at level 17 instead of Flail, and that it can be encountered on Route 110 with the same chance as Gulpin (level 12-13 with a 15% chance). That feels very natural to me, and how I could see the little elephant actually being implemented.

Changed Phanpy performance:

Phanpy would start out with a normal early game moveset of Growl, Odor Sleuth, Tackle and Defense Curl. Leveling up to level 17 for Magnitude in the area before gym 3 is not difficult for it. Despite learning the move later vial level-up anyway, it is a good idea to teach Phanpy Rollout with the move tutor in Mauvile City for some good coverage and setup. Its STAB Ground move is also very nice for the Electric types on Seaside Cycling Road. The Soft Sand should also be picked up on the beach south of Slateport City. Only Donphan should equip it, though, as Phanpy doesn't need it and wants to find items with Pickup.

Wattson:
Even if Phanpy didn't reach level 25 yet, it can still take on the Electric gym on its own. Its Ground typing gives it an immunity and it has a good HP stat, so Sonicboom is only a 4HKO. An average Magnitude is likely to OHKO Magneton and a guaranteed 2HKO on Manectric. If it evolved into Donphan already, then the gym is even easier.
Overall performance: S

If Phanpy didn't evolve for Wattson already, then it will shortly after. Donphan's evolution level is rather low at 25 for a Pokemon with 120 base attack and defense. Sadly, it will lose Pickup for the useless Sturdy ability. So no more free items. Phanpy likely did deliver a few nice early game items before it evolves, though. And Donphan can now make use of Soft Sand. The routes between gym 3 and 4 are easy for Donphan, and it can also be teached Strength after the third gym for another good early game physical move. Donphan is able to easily clear the trainers on Mt. Chimney.

Flannery:
Donphan has great matchup against her Fire Pokemon. The average Magnitude is going to OHKO everything expect Torkoal who is 2HKOed. Torkoal's Overheat is not an OHKO on Donphan outside of sun. But it is also possible to sweep with Rollout to minimize the RNG of Magnitude. Using Defense Curl on the first turn against Numel will allow Donphan to then 2HKO Numel and OHKO her remaining Pokemon with boosted Rollouts. There is some RNG involved in this fight due to Magnitude ranges and Rollout's accuracy, but Donphan is able to still beat Flannery even if it misses once. Despite Donphan's low speed, it is able to outspeed all of her Pokemon.
Overall performance: A

Donphan is useful in the desert on Route 111 as it takes no Sand Storm damage and matches up well against the Pokemon there. The Return TM can also be picked up if one wants to give Donphan the TM later. The third puzzle in the Trick House on the way back to Petalburg City should be cleared in order to receive the Hard Stone to make Rollouts stronger.

Norman:
Donphan is likely going to outspeed Spinda, but even if it isn't, Spinda doesn't really threaten Donphan in any way other than being annoying. Magnitude is a guaranteed 2HKO or even OHKO with a high RNG roll. Donphan can then set up a single Defense Curl on Vigoroth and sweep through Norman's remaining Pokemon. Even a 4th turn Rollout that has been boosted by Defense Curl is going to OHKO Slaking already. Donphan could also go with just Magnitude spam but it should then Defense Curl on Slaking's attack turns because of Counter. Overall, none of Norman's Pokemon can deal significant damage to Donphan while it has the tool to sweep.
Overall performance: A

Donphan is not too useful in the water routes around the starter island but it can take out the Voltorbs in New Mauvile City and is also decent against the trainers on the routes before Fortree City. It moveset is likely still the same since gym 3, but it does the job well. Its strong physical moves are also good against the Kecleons around Fortree City.

Winona:
Donphan can set up a Defense Curl on Swablu and then OHKO it. Tropius is outsped and 2HKOed, so it won't get two turns to use Solar Beam. Pelipper is annoying because of Protect which can stopp an otherwise easy Rollout sweep. But if Defense Curl was used before, even a turn 1 Rollout 2HKOs it while Water Gun is not a 2HKO in return. Skarmory can not threaten Donphan and is 2HKOed by turn 2 and 3 Rollout. As always, Altaria is a joke and none of its attacks do more than 35% while turn 4 Rollout OHKOs. Even if you miss, you can start to Rollout again and Donphan will still 2HKO then.
Overall performance: A

Donphan doesn't like the rain and the Grass Pokemon of some trainers on the routes to Lilycove City but matches up well otherwise. The Ground STAB move and extra EVs really help here. It is much more functional in Mt. Pyre and Route 123. Now we reach the area that vanilla Phanpy starts in, and which is Donphan's low point. It does not like the water routes, even if it isn't as scared of them as Golem. It can still clear out the Team Magma and Team Aqua Hideouts well, though.

Tate & Liza:
Donphan doesn't do well against their levitating and special attacking Pokemon. STAB and Calm Mind boosted Psychics do a ton to Donphan. Its can't really hit any of their Pokemon well. Rollout, Strength and even a maxed out Return are too weak with its low speed. Sadly, Donphan can't really contribute much of anything here.
Overall performance: E

Donphan does well against Team Magma in Mossdeep Space Center, even if Intimidate is annoying in the double battle. In the water routes it can yet again not help out too much aside from some trainers on land. It can clear out Team Aqua in the Seafloor Cavern resonably well, though.

Juan:
The Water gym is even worse for Donphan. Water Pulse is too strong for it, even with only a single weakness to Water. It has no hope of beating Kindra. It just gets 2HKOed. It is just too slow and doesn't have the special bulk, even if Earthquake would be a 2HKO.
Overall performance: F

Donphan does rather well against the trainers of Victory Road. It will also finally learn Earthquake at level 49 now.

Elite Four and Champion:
Changed Donphan does exactly as vanilla Donphan here. It is decent against Sidney and Phoebe but can't really do anything against Glacia, Drake and Wallace.
Overall performance: D

In total, I would rank changed Phanpy in upper B rank. Two whole ranks higher than it currently is.


If Phanpy came this early and had Magnitude, it would occupy a viability between Golem and Sandslash. Golem's traits are overall probably still a bit better, but Phanpy would still be good. Having a really good early game, even if it falls off rather hard in the late game. Just having more Ground type options early in general would give it a nice role. Vanilla Phanpy sadly misses a lot of hightlights it could have.
 
That post got me to look up Phanpy's modern movepools. I mean surely it had gotten more ground moves in its level up learn set by this point....only to see that it didn't get a single ground type move until BDSP (of all things) where it got Bulldoze (& only Bulldoze) at level 15. SV kept that addition, at least.
 
That post got me to look up Phanpy's modern movepools. I mean surely it had gotten more ground moves in its level up learn set by this point....only to see that it didn't get a single ground type move until BDSP (of all things) where it got Bulldoze (& only Bulldoze) at level 15. SV kept that addition, at least.
It gets new Ground moves earlier actually. Well, Donphan does. Donphan can get Magnitude starting in gen 4 as a relearn move already. As of gen 5, both Phanpy and Donphan can also learn Bulldoze, either as a relearn or TM move. Still, kind of sucks that neither one of them are normal level-up moves.
 
What if the Water Stone in the Abandoned Ship didn't require Dive to get
and Lombre learned Water Gun and Leech Seed
in Emerald?
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Ludicolo is a fan favorite, and I like it as well. The designs of the Lotad evolution line is really cool. Sadly, Lotad is not that good in its debut generation. Lombre is kind of famous for having an atrocious level-up movepool, having no better Grass STAB move besides the Bullet Seed TM until the Giga Drain TM, and having no Water STAB at all until the Surf HM. Ludicolo is perfectly fine but you are stuck with Lombre and its mediocre stats for a very long time. This is because the Water Stone is only available much, much later than any other evolution stone. Even the Sun Stone can be gotten earlier in Ruby and Emerald. But in all three Hoenn games, the Water Stone in the Abandoned Ship is located in an area that requires the Dive HM to be accessed. So there is no way around it, Ludicolo is only available after gym 7. It is fairly decent because of it typing after you get it, though. I put Lotad on the bottom of C rank in my tier list. But I could also totally see it lowre tbh.

Lombre does actually have a pretty colorful movepool. But you aren't able to use most of it during your normal playthrough. For example, it has plenty of egg moves than would feel natural for it to learn with just level-ups like Leech Seed, Razor Leaf and Water Gun.
And the Water Stone being available so much later, when the Fire, Thunder and Leaf Stone can all be picked up after the 5th gym already, feels weird. So for this write-up, lets assume the Water Stone is in the place of the Harbor Mail on the first floor of the Abandoned Ship, and that Lombre can learn Water Gun and Leech Seed in place of the useless level 1 Astonish and level 25 Fury Swipes.

Changed Lombre performance:

Lotad comes right away with Water Gun when we catch it. Absorb and the Bullet Seed TM are its early Grass STAB options. With Water Gun it has a much easier time leveling up already since the routes around Rustboro City contain many Bug and Grass types that resist Grass moves. It can OHKO the Geodudes of the hikers on Route 116 and the trainers of Roxanne's gym for a nice EXP boost to reach level 14 and evolve into Lombre before facing the first gym leader.

Roxanne:
Lombre takes care of her two Geodude no problem. With its evolved stats, Rock Tomb from Nosepass is only a 4HKO, while Water Gun is a guaranteed 3HKO and Bullet Seed can be a 2HKO, even through its Oran Berry. Weirdly, at these low levels the damage formula rounds in such a way that even a 3 hit Bullet Seed can outdamage Water Gun, despite having lower base power.
Overall performance: S

There isn't too much to do until Dewford City, but Lombre appreciates the stronger and more reliable Water Gun. It also matches up better against the Pokemon of Granite Cave.

Brawly:
Lombre can 3HKO Machop, but if you get lucky with Bullet Seed hits, then it can even be a 2HKO. Which would be good because +1 Low Kick hurts. Meditite is also 3HKOed by Water Gun but it is also a good idea to use Absorb instead to get some HP back or outstall Light Screen if it chooses to use that. Sadly, Lombre does not line up well against Makuhita. Water Gun and Bullet Seed are too weak and its Fighting attacks are too strong. Lombre can't do more than chip Makuhita for another team member.
Overall performance: C

Lombre likes the upcoming routes, and Water Gun gives it a much better time against the Magnemites on the Seaside Cycling Road. At level 25, it now learns Leech Seed.

Wattson:
Voltorb and Electrike are both 3HKOed by Water Gun or potentially 2HKOed by Bullet Seed. The matchup against Magneton is a stall war. It is important to get Leech Seed off. Then Shock Wave and SonicBoom are only 4HKOs, and Lombre can chip down Magneton with Water Gun and Leech Seed damage. But a Super Potion is likely needed. It also sucks that Magneton outspeeds Lombre and can try to cheese it with Thunderwave and Supersonic. Manectric is similar. Get a Leech Seed off and chip it down. Probably use another Potion. Or use Tief from the TM to grab its Sitrus Berry.
Overall performance: C

Lombre has good matchups in the routes leading up to gym 4. Water Gun is especially useful against Team Magma on Mt. Chimney. At level 31, Lombre learns the rather underwhelming Water Sport, which does however have a use in the upcoming Fire gym since Lombre does not resist Fire, despite being a Water type.

Flannery:
Lombre does much better with Water Gun here. Numel is OHKOed. Lombre can set up Water Sport against Slugma to weaken Flannery's Overheats and then 2HKO Slugma and Camerupt. Water Gun is a guaranteed 3HKO if Torkoal does not set up sun while Overheat is not. Using Leech Seed first gives Lombre an easier time but it will likely still need a single Potion to completely sweep Flannery.
Overall performance: B

Lombre is also a bit better in the desert with Water Gun, but it was already doing fine there.

Norman:
Lombre's stats are really falling behind now. It is an equal matchup against even Spinda. Water Gun is only a 4HKO and Spind's Facade is too plus it can be annoying with Teeter Dance. The Vigoroth matchup is even worse. Water Gun is yet again only a 4HKO, Facade or Slash do decent damage and it is faster than Lombre. Linoone is also a bit harder with higher special defense and Headbutt. Leech Seed can help with Vigoroth and Linoone but Lombre will still need some Potion support. Finally, Slaking is too much for Lombre to handle. Facade does a ton of damage. And while it is nice to get off a Leech Seed on Slaking for your other team members, Lombre can't do anything else of notice against it. It is simply too weak and frail to take it on. If you can afford the Ice Beam TM from the Game Corner before, then the matchup becomes a bit better.
Overall performance: D

With the 5th gym badge under our belt, we finally get a stronger STAB move in Surf. That also means it is now time to get to the Abandoned Ship to get the Water Stone. Up until there, Lombre has a good time in the Water routes, though it hates Wingulls and Tentacools. When we finally get the Water Stone, Lombre gets the massive stat boost it now desperately needs to not fall behind. It is now much faster, bulkier and stronger. We also pick up the free Ice Beam TM there if we didn't buy the Game Corner one. It doesn't like the Bug types of Route 119 too much but with the permanent rain present there, it isn't too much of any issue. Ludicolo does overall well in the routes leading up to Fortree City.

Winona:
Ludicolo is strong enough to OHKO Swablu and Tropius with Ice Beam. Pelliper is 3HKOed and its Aerial Ace does very little. Skarmory is 2HKOed by Surf but its Aerial Ace does actually pack a decent punch, so a Hyper Potion might be useful here. Altaria does similar damage as Skarmory and can potentially outspeed Ludicolo. However it is cleanly OHKOed by its Ice Beam.
Overall performance: B

Just like on Route 119, the permanent rain on Route 120 is good for Ludicolo in the trainer battles there. It is not the best at taking care of the Kecleons, though. Ludicolo does fine against all trainers up to Lilycove City and on Route 123. We finally pick up a stronger Grass STAB with the Giga Drain TM there. It clears Mt. Pyre and Team Aqua there well. The Sea Incense there gives Ludicolo a boosting item for its Water moves. After we get the Magma Emblem and find the Team Magma Hideout on Mt. Chimney, it has an easy time beating the grunts and Maxie there. It is a good idea to use the PP Max you find there to give Giga Drain more PP. Back in Lilycove City, it can also clear out Team Aqua in their hideout as well. Ludicolo does fine against the trainers in the routes surrounding Mossdeep City and in front of Shoal Cave. In said cave we can also pick up the Never-Melt Ice for boosted Ice Beams later.

Tate & Liza:
Xatu being faster than Ludicolo is annoying, as it can set up a Calm Mind before Ludicolo can hit it with Ice Beam. It still does a lot and has a chance to 2HKO but sadly so does Xatu's +1 Psychic. Claydol can't really touch Ludicolo and is 2HKOed by either Giga Drain or Ice Beam. It can be annoying with Light Screen, though. For these two first Pokemon, you should focus both your Pokemon on a single target to take them out in one hit. Lunatone and Solrock do very little damage to Ludicolo, and also get outsped and 2HKOed by Giga Drain. Lunatone, however, can also be annoying with Light Screen or Hypnosis.
Overall performance: A

After we get the 7th badge, Ludicolo does a good job clearing out Team Magma in the Mossdeep Space Center. The double battle against the leaders with Steven is fine for Ludicolo, even with the Surf spread penaltiy and the STAB Flying moves from Golbat and Crobat. Ludicolo does very well in the late game Water routes, but Giga Drains low PP is an issue. Give it a Leppa Berry once in a while. Team Aqua is easily taken care off in Seafloor Cavern by Ludicolo. With the Dive HM, we can also pick up the Rain Dance TM from the Abandoned Ship if you want to run that over Leech Seed instead.

Juan:
Ludicolo does very well against all of Juan's Pokemon. Luvdisc, Whishcash, Sealeo and Crawdaunt are all OHKOed or 2HKOed with Giga Drain. Only Kingdra poses a threat due to its great bulk, no Grass weakness and Rest. Ludicolo can get a Leech Seed off and sit on Kingdra forever but with Rest and Double Team, Ludicolo can get PP stalled. Once Kingdra used up its Chesto Berry, though, and went back to sleep, you get send in another Pokemon that can threaten a sleeping and Leech Seeded Kingdra better than Ludicolo.
Overall performance: A

Ludicolo does fine against the trainers in the remaining routes and locations like Victory Road. It can also be your Waterfall user.

Elite Four and Champion:
Here changed Ludicolo does almost exactly the same as vanilla Ludicolo, as it only possibly has Leech Seed to differentiate itself by that point. However, there is not really a Pokemon in the League that the move is that good against anymore, so Rain Dance is overall the better choice to set up sweeps with Swift Swim. Ludicolo does fine or well against all Elite Four members and the Champion.
Overall performance: A

In total, I would rank changed Lombre in bottom A rank. Two whole ranks higher than it currently is.


Even changed Lombre would still have problems and low points, like against Norman. But overall, just an earlier evolution and a couple of better early game moves would go a long way to making Lombre much, much better. For such an early Pokemon that placement is more where Lombre should have ended up at.
 
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Well if the current name of the game is discussing how pokemon would do in games with some change, how about this one?
What if Platinum's Kazza the Abra was a Snover instead?
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Male

While everyone knows about the woes of using Fire types in Diamond & Pearl, and how Platinum rectified it by making a lot more fire types available before the postgame, such as Houndour, Magmortar, and Flareon.

But I wouldn't call the Grass type lineup very impressive either. Like, we have Torterra and Roserade and their pretty good. But if you want to use a different grass type in an even remotely timely manner, you have to either use Cherubi -> Cherrim (ok mon, but locked to Honey Tree farming) or use Grass Wormadam. Who is only a grass type because it's wearing the grass itself. Not because it's an actual plant.

Otherwise your only other options are Leafeon, which means not only backtracking to Eterna Forest, but also losing out on Espeon and the other better Eeveelutions unless your willing to either breed another Eevee, or are willing to put up with the Trophy Garden Daily Pokemon mechanic to get your hands on another Eevee. With our other options being the questionable Tropius, the decent Tangrowth, and Carnivine, who just as questionable as Tropius is, if not more so due to a wasted ability.

So yeah, if you want a grass type in Sinnoh, your options for a viable grass type are severely limited.

As for why I'm going with Snover, I think it's an interesting idea for a pokemon, it's probably one of the more famous Sinnoh grass types, thanks in part to the interesting concept of a snow covered abominable tree monster that can summon hail, though this last part doesn't get as much time in the spotlight . I also think it would be a good way to introduce the player to Hail as an ability summoned weather, and help make the line even more memorable to fans.

The one issue is that Snover only tends to spawn in the snow covered reaches of Routes 216 & 217, as well as near the peak of Mount Coronet. So making it available early is a bit of an issue without moving it to a not snowy location. Thus, the idea to swap Kazza out for a Snover.

We'll say that the little fella wandered down from the mountain and got caught by Hillary. But upon opening the ball, the Hillary and her family were hit with a sudden hailstorm inside their house, and had to put our little Snover back in the ball to make it stop. So when our trainer comes along, they trade us Douggie the Snover (after the Douglas Fir tree) for a much more managable Budew, and our trainer is now on their way!

This will assume that the player is trying to keep Douggie under, at, or around the level cap (in this case, the level of the gym leader's ace), that Douggie is has had nothing else changed about them (I.E they have a Quiet nature, and have 15 IVs in HP, Atk, Def, 25 IV in SpA and SpDef, and 20 IVs in Spe) and are holding an Oran berry to start with) and that they are playing Platinum. So with that out of the way, let's get started!

Also, as a refresher, here is Snover's Gen 4 Serebii page.

Roark (Level Cap: 14): While Douggie does need to fear getting hit by a Rock Throw from Geodude, Douggie can easily OHKO Geodude before it can even attack with just about any move (don't forget, Gen 4 Sturdy only stopped the OHKO moves like Fissure, Horn Drill, etc) and just as easily OHKO Onix with Icy Wind, though it does need to be afraid of a potential Screech or Rock Throw. As either would all but ensure that Douggie will go down to Cranidos and it's Headbutts off of a monstrous base 125 Atk without a chance to Icy Wind Cranidos. But if we get the Stealth Rock, Bind, or a Screech + a low Headbutt roll without FLINCHING then Douggie can Icy Wind Cranidos to slow it down and finish it off next turn / chunk it with Razor Leaf. Not 100% perfect, but still a good start for our little tree guy. 8/10

Gardenia (Level Cap: 22):
Snover freaking DEMOLISHES most of this gym. Straight up. Turtwig is pretty much a non-issue, and Cherrim is just as not threatening. The only one that remotely threatens Douggie is Roserade thanks to it's high SpAtk. But even then your just a pair of low damage rolls from Roserade away from cleanly sweeping the Gym thanks to Douggie. 9/10

Fantina (Level Cap: 26):
Douggie is ok here in Hearthome. It can handle the Drifloon easily enough. But it's lacking against the numerous Gastly, Haunter, and Misdreavus thanks to their typings and higher defenses. He can at least contribute some Hail chip. But is otherwise not going to do much against Fantina and her ghost types. Especially with all the statuses they can inflict. 4/10

Maylene (Level Cap: 32): HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!
You seriously think this thing has anything more to contribute to this gym than Hail fodder? No way, no how, Duggie is a non-factor in this gym. Everything hits too hard for it to meaningfully contribute. And if you thought the horde of Meditite, Machoke, and occasional Croagunk & Heracross were not reason enough to not use this thing, Lucario walks in saying "hold my poffins" and uses any of Drain Punch, Force Palm, or Metal Claw to punt Douggie into the sun. 0/10. The good news though is that we now have access to Giga Drain, Blizzard, Protect, Ice Beam, Swords Dance, Focus Blast, Substitute, and Hidden Power (though it's just Ice so lol)

Crasher Wake (Level Cap: 37): Ok this is much, MUCH better. Gyarados is a bit shaky at base, but with an X-Defense it gets much safer. Quagsire is the definition of free thanks to our newly acquired Wood Hammer at level 36 (though it results in some substantial recoil damage.) or Giga Drain via TM for the sustain. A quick healing should allow it to easily deal with Floatzel without much else hassel (or a few Giga Drains). 9/10 while it can easily take down the gym, it is a bit reliant on item usage to do so.

Byron (Level Cap: 41): Duggie is now a fully grown Abomasnow so it has better stats, and can use the Earthquake TM from Wayward Cave, assuming you didn't give it to something else (like the Wayward Cave Gible, a Gyarados, etc) to make this gym much easier. Or more than likely your using the Focus Blast TM from Veilstone. That said Magneton easily outspeeds Douggie to chunk it with Flash Cannon before getting KO'd by EQ/FB. Steelix gets OHKO'd easily by Ice Beam. Bastiodon complicates things with Stone Edge but if you can land 2-3 EQ's you can take it out, or a single FB. So you'd definitely need an X-SpDef to survive the Magneton & Steelix, and some luck to get the high damage roll from FB and maybe an X-Accuracy for Bastiodon, but it's doable. 6/10 works on paper, but a bit too luck and item reliant for my liking.

Candice (Level Cap: 44): You'll want another X-Def, and another X-Accuracy for this one. But Focus Blast can easily destroy Sneasel. Ice Beam OHKO's Piloswine but you'll need to avoid the really low roll. Focus Blast 2HKOs Candice's Abomasnow, but you also have to avoid the 2HKO from her Focus Blast. If you held onto Wood Hammer it can easily 2HKO Froslass. But you will need to heal off the recoil damage and hope it doesn't go for Blizzard. 7/10 item reliant again, and somewhat luck reliant, but not as much as last time. Honestly fairs better than I thought it would.

Team Galactic: I had avoided talking about them as a whole up until now. As for most of the time, Douggie here isn't going to be a ton of help. Lots of flying, poison, and steel types make getting Douggie in properly a bit of a hassle as they can all threaten Dougie pretty strongly, especially in Platinum where they also throw in heaps of Houndour with their Fire type moves. Your probably better off bringing in your other pokemon for the Galactic portions. At least you can chunk Giratina with Blizzard / Ice Beam to try and avoid using your Masterball on it?

Volkner (Level Cap: 50): Easy in theory, not in practice though. Jolteon can try and threaten with Iron Tail, and Raichu can do the same thing with Focus Blast and Signal Beam. Luxray and Electivire are non starters though, their too fast, and have fire coverage. Again, your probably better off with something like a Garchomp here. 6/10 decent at least against Raichu and Jolteon, dead weight for the rest of the fight.

E4 and Champion Cynthia (Level Cap: 62): Aaron, and Flint are non starters due to their strong type matchup against Douggie. Lucian has at least Mr. Mime that Douggie can take care of due to it's lackluster coverage. But the rest of the team either resists Douggie's attacks, has super effective coverage against it, or both. Bertha at least gives Douggie a chance to shine with her team of Ground types all falling pray to Grass/Ice (though you will need to switch Dougie around to get rid of Hippowdon's Sand Stream). Cynthia herself though is in a class of her own, each of her mons having strong coverage to deal with Douggie with ease, and either being too fast, too strong, or too bulky for Douggie to safely deal with. Especially her Garchomp having Flamethrower to end any dreams of ending the run with a heroic Blizzard (unless your willing to get a focus sash and make Douggie hold it for the fight to ensure it gets Blizzard off). 3/10 and that's being generous, as all it can really do is hard counter Bertha.


Overall 4.8 / 10: Honestly not as good as I thought it would be. The early to midgame is solid. But as you get deeper into the lategame, it becomes a lot more reliant on set up with X items to stick around and contribute outside of specific situations it's suited for. So sadly, not even making it available earlier can help Snover escape E Tier. So you're probably better off just using Torterra or Roserade.
 
What if the Water Stone in the Abandoned Ship didn't require Dive to get
and Staryu could be fished up on Route 118 with the Good Rod
in Emerald?
72_staryu.png

Staryu is one of if not the single best template for all of your powerful special TMs. A moveset of Surf, Ice Beam, Thunderbolt und Psychic is basically guaranteed to do work, and Starmie has the stats and typing to make it work. It is very fast and strong enough to deal big damage with these high powered special attacks.
Unfortunately, Staryu can't show off its full potential that well in Emerald. It already comes very late into the game. It is a Super Rod encounter in Lilycove City, and the Super Rod is located in Mossdeep City. So earliest you can get Staryu is before the 7th gym. But Staryu also isn't that great right away, because the Water Stone it needs to evolve is located in a section of the Abandoned Ship that requires the Dive HM to be accessed. So Starmie can't be used in the 7th gym yet. And after that the game is almost over, so Starmie has very little time left to show its great strengths. It also has two difficult matchups in the Elite Four in Sidney and Phoebe, so Staryu landed on the top of C rank in my tier list, which is a shame.

Lets see how well Staryu would do if it and Starmie would be available earlier. So for this write-up, lets assume the Water Stone is in the place of the Harbor Mail on the first floor of the Abandoned Ship, and that Staryu can be fished up on Route 118 with the Good Rod in place of Carvanha (levels 10-30 at a 20% chance). I also thought about Staryu being an Old Rod encounter Dewford Town, but that felt unfitting. Staryu was never available in any game with the Old Rod, and having access to such a good Water type this early might be too much. Route 118 is were the Good Rod is located, and the shoreline there feels like a natural encounter location for Staryu.

Changed Staryu performance:

After we defeat Norman in Petalburg City and get the Surf HM, we immediately go to Route 118 first before we do anything else to give Staryu the biggest amount of time to contribute. Sadly, the fisherman that gives us the Good Rod is located on the east side of the route, so we need another Pokemon that can surf us across first. It is easiest if we caught a Tentacool in Dewford Town with the Old Rod earlier. After we get the Good Rod, it is time to start fishing. The low encounter rate and huge level range for Good Rod encounters is annoying as always.
But eventually we get ourself a Staryu, ideally one around level 25 or higher. We can teach it Surf right away for a great STAB move. After Norman we also easily have enough money to buy the Psychic TM from the Game Corner for 70,000$, which is a nice STAB option for Starmie later, but also not as necessary as its other TM options and it is nice to leave one moveslot open for the Waterfall or Dive HMs.
Speaking of which, we will go get the next one for Staryu right away. We get the key from Wattson in Mauvile City and travel through New Mauvile for the free Thunderbolt TM. With it, Staryu has no great coverage against the Water types between Slateport City and Petalburg City. Staryu can easily take care of all the Water trainers up to the Abandoned Ship. Inside, we pick up the Water Stone and another great coverage move in the Ice Beam TM. We evolve Staryu to Starmie and give it the Ice Beam TM. Now Starmie is already full functional, with a great typing, great stats and an amazing moveset.
Starmie has no problem taking on the remaining trainers around the starter island. It likes the permanent rain on Route 119 too, which makes its Surf hit even harder. The trainers, Team Aqua and your rival have no chance. We also get the Mystic Water from the gifted Castform and equip it to Starmie to boost its Water attacks. After we clear the Kecleons we go back into the Fortree City Gym.

Winona:
Starmie outspeeds and destroys everything. Swablu has a good chance of being OHKOed by either Thunderbolt or Ice Beam and is no threat. Tropius and Pelliper are both OHKOed by the respective moves. Skarmory, yet again, can't threaten Starmie and is 2HKOed by Thunderbolt. Altaria has a low chance to be OHKOed by Ice Beam and a +1 Earthquake does not even do 50% damage, so Starmie wins here easily too.
Overall performance: S

Starmie also likes the rain on Route 120, and does a gret job clearing out the trainers up until Lilycove City, as well as on Route 123 and in Mt. Pyre. Team Magma and Maxie have no chance against Starmie in their hideout on Mt. Chimney. Same with Team Aqua in their hideout in Lilycove City. In the water routes before Mossdeep City, Starmie can easily zap the Water Pokemon with Thunderbolt and take care of the other trainers on land with its strong STAB moves. We venture into Shoal Cave and pick up the Never-Melt Ice from the ice room that will be useful later.

Tate & Liza:
Starmie outspeeds and can 2HKO Xatu, even through a Calm Mind boost. Claydol is also guaranteed 2HKO with Ice Beam while Starmie doesn't take too much from Earthquake. Both Xatu and Claydol can be annoying with Sunny Day or Light Screen, so its best to focus both your Pokemon on a single target. Solrock is a guaranteed 2HKO with Surf but Lunatone only has a low chance be 2HKOed. Luckily, none of those two can threaten Starmie much. The additional Starmie evolution makes such a big difference here, as Starmie has much better stats and a Psychic resistance. Even Solrock's Solar Beam does surprisingly little. Mostly they are annoying with Sunny Day, Hypnosis, Light Screen or Calm Mind. There are very few Pokemon that are amazing against Tate & Liza due to the double battle nature, but Starmie is certainly doing very well.
Overall performance: A

After that we reach the point were vanilla Staryu starts. But changed Staryu is already evolved, so we don't need another detour to the Abandoned Ship. And Starmie has a bunch of EVs already, so it is also stronger. We can give Starmie the Dive HM after it clears out Team Magma from the Mossdeep Space Center, and surf the Water routes of the end game. The Magnet can also be picked up in the Trick House to give its Thunderbolts more power. Here Starmie does amazingly, just like vanialla Starmie does. Archie in Seafloor Cavern is no challenge. After Rayquaza calms the two weather legends, we go into the last gym in Sootopolis City.

Juan:
Starmie can cleanly outspeed and OHKO Luvdisc and Crawdaunt with Thunderbolt. Sealeo and Whiscash are 2HKOed by Thunderbolt and Surf while not posing much of a threat to Starmie. Kingdra is the biggest hurdle, like it always is. It can't touch Starmie at all and a Magnet boosted Thunderbolt is a 3HKO, so it can't outstall you with Rest. Unless you get really unlucky with evasion boosts, Starmie will sweep cleanly.
Overall performance: S

Starmie can ditch Dive for the Waterfall HM to reach Victory Road. It does well against any trainers there, with only the last Slaking double battles being difficult.

Elite Four and Champion:
Sidney and Phoebe are difficult matchups due to Starmie's typing. However, if Camouflage was not forgotten in place of Psychic earlier, then the move is a great help here, as it allows Starmie to remove its type weaknesses by turning into a Normal type. With Camouflage, Starmie is great against the entire Elite Four and the Champion, but even without the move, Starmie can still do okay against Sidney and Phoebe, and sweep Glacia, Drake and Wallace.
Overall performance: A / B

In total, I would rank changed Staryu top of A rank. Two whole ranks higher than it currently is.


Changed Staryu would be absolutely amazing, and the only reasons I would not put it in S rank are because it only comes in the mid game, would be in the wide Good Rod encounter range and requires a lot of important TMs. But otherwise this just shows how good Staryu would be, if it was usable in more of the game.
 
What if Relicanth could be fished up on Route 115 with the Good Rod in Emerald?
93_relicanth.png

Relicanth is really mediocre in Emerald. And that is despite having great physical stats, good abilities and a solid typing. Its biggest problem is that it comes far too late. It is a pure seaweed encounter (a very rare one at that). Which means, you will need the Dive HM, which means it is only available after the 7th gym. So the game is almost over and it barely has any battles left to contribute. It is also not very good in the remaining battles due to its second problem - its movepool. Despite having a mixed Water / Rock typing, it has awful special attack, so it can't make use of its Water typing offensively very well. And it is also a Rock type in Hoenn and as such doesn't get access to Rock Slide via level-up. So its best Rock STAB moves are either Rock Tomb or Ancient Power. Therefore its most reliable and strongest attacking options are Double-Edge and Earthquake, which don't get STAB. As it comes so late, and therefore doesn't have a lot of EVs, Relicanth is too weak with these non-STAB moves to do much anymore. Because of all these flaws, I ranked Relicanth bottom of E rank in my tier list. On par with the Regis, as in Pokemon that are just not worth getting anymore.

In this write-up I will explore how much better Relicanth fares when it is available much earlier. Route 115 near Meteor Falls feels like a fitting fishing location for such an ancient rock fish. Lets assume it would have the same encounter chance as Wailmer there. A 20% chance with the Good Rod for a Relicanth between the levels of 10-30.
I also thought about giving Relicanth better movepool options but its phyiscal movepool is mostly fine. It is its weak special attacking side that is the problem. And the most straight forward way to fix that would be a better special attack stat. But I don't want to go down that route, as stat changes drastically change a Pokemon's performance and look. I wanted Relicanth to still feel like Relicanth. So for that reason, we assume no movepool changes, just an earlier availability.

Changed Relicanth performance:

After defeating Norman and getting the Surf HM, we get go straight to Route 118 to get the Good Rod, which will allow us to fish up Relicanth as soon as possible. Again, the fisherman that gives you the rod is on the east side of the route, so you need another Surf user first to get over there. You can easily fish up a Tentacool in Dewford Town earlier for that. Once we got the Good Rod, we have to get to Route 115. The most direct route is through Rusturf Tunnel. Once there, we start fishing. Being a Good Rod encounter is certainly not good, but for sure better than Relicanth's normal 5% encounter rate in seaweed. Ideally we would want to fish up a Relicanth around level 25, so it doesn't come too underleveled, as Relicanth is in the slow level growth group. Relicanth comes with Rock Tomb already, and can be taught Surf and Secret Power right away.
After that it can gain EXP and level up by defeating the trainers on the water routes around the starter island, which Relicanth does resonably well against. At level 29 it can learn Take Down, which could be a decent physical move in the short term, depending on Relicanth's ability, as Rock Head removes the recoil of the move. The Hard Stone can be picked up from the Trick House to give Rock Tomb more power. Relicanth crushes the Bug types on Route 119 before Fortree City, as well as the Kecleons there, but it really dislikes the Grass types of the Rangers in these areas. If you picked up the Ice Beam TM on the Abandoned Ship for Relicanth, it becomes a bit better, though.

Winona:
Swablu is outsped and cleanly OHKOed by Relicanth's Rock Tomb. Tropius is also slower than Relicanth and 2HKOed by two Ice Beams. Pelipper can't touch Relicanth and is 2HKOed by Rock Tomb, all it can do is be annoying with Super Sonic and Protect. The Pelipper special. While Skarmory is completely walled by Relicanth, Surf is only a 4HKO and Skarmory can be annoying with Sand-Attack. Altaria has a chance to be 2HKOed by Ice Beam while even a +1 Earthquake only has a low chance to 2HKO Relicanth. A single Potion might be necessary.
Overall performance: A

Relicanth likes the rain on Route 120, if it got the Swift Swim ability instead, as it fixes its bad speed. The route trainers there are mostly decent for it and Relicanth does well on Route 123 and Mt. Pyre as well. The Sea Incense can be picked up there to give its Surfs more power. Relicanth can easily take care of Team Aqua and Magma in their respective hideouts. Once we get to the water routes before Mossdeep City, Relicanth will learn Ancient Power as additional, slightly more powerful and more accurate Rock STAB move. Using the PP Max from the Team Magma Hideout on the move will fix its low PP issue somewhat. Relicanth does fine against all trainers in the routes surrounding Mossdeep City.

Tate & Liza:
While Xatu is easily 2HKOed by Relicanth's Rock moves, it will still likely outspeed it even at -1, and Psychic does a lot of damage, especially at +1. Claydol is a big problem, as Surf and Ice Beam are only 4HKOs and Earthquake is doing almost half. If Light Screen or Sunny Day is set up, Relicanth can't do much of anything against it. Lunatone and Solrock are also bad matchups, as its Rock moves and Surf are too weak, and their special attacks do too much damage. If Sun has been set up, Solrock's Solar Beam will also be a clean OHKO. As is tradtion with Hoenn Rock types, they struggle a lot with this fight.
Overall performance: D

After this rought fight Relicanth has better matchups. While it doesn't like the Intimidate of Archie's and Tabitha's Mightyenas, it still does well in this double battle. Steven then gives us the Dive HM which allows us to get Relicanth some upgrades. If it has Swift Swim, we can pick up the Rain Dance TM from the Abandoned Ship now. Otherwise, with Dive we can access Sootopolis City and teach Relicanth Double-Edge with the move tutor in the Pokemon Center there, which will be a strong all around move if Relicanth has the Rock Head ability. Besides defeating Archie, we also pick up the Earhquake TM, which is a great and strong coverage option for Relicanth but it is a bit strapped for moveslots at this point. After Rayquaza clears the domestic dispute between Kyogre and Groudon, we venture into the final gym.

Juan:
Luvdisc can only be annoying but otherwise is just 2HKOed by Relicanth. Kingdra is difficult as always, but Water Pulese is not doing much and Double-Edge is a guaranteed 3HKO with Silk Scarf. So Relicanth is likely coming out on top. Sealeo can't really touch it either, and is outsped and 2HKOed. Whishcash is funnily also a good matchup as its Earthquake only does ~32% to Relicanth while Double-Edge has a good chance to 2HKO. Crawdaunt is the same story. Outsped and 2HKOed while Crabhammer doesn't do much in return.
Overall performance: A

Victory Road does have a few difficult matchups for Relicanth but it does well overall.

Elite Four and Champion:
Changed Relicanth does a lot better here as the additional EVs by this point help a ton. It doesn't excel against anyone but is overall doing fine.
Overall performance: B

In total, I would rank changed Relicanth middle of B rank. Three whole ranks higher than it currently is.


Changed Relicanth would be a lot more usable and honestly be pretty fine. It requires a bit of time and resource investment but does have some good attributes. It also has a much more consistent performance throughout the game than other Rock types, as it doesn't fall off in the later Water routes. A bit sad that vanilla Relicanth doesn't have the ability to show this.
 
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What if Pokémon Red, Green, Blue, and Yellow had an in-game tier list, but instead of ranking the Pokémon themselves, we were ranking how good each Type is within the games?

1720972836095.png


This is an idea I've been thinking about for a pretty long time now, and I wasn't sure where else it may have been appropriate to post this proposal. This is the first one of these I've made so far, so I apologize if this post doesn't feel like the most well constructed one in the world. The reason this topic fascinates me as a hopeful and possible point of discussion is that there's actually two things to keep in mind when ranking Types. There's the distribution of Pokémon and their type matchups, yes, but there's also the distribution of moves within a casual, in-game setting to consider also. Should anyone else be interested in joining me to make more of these (obviously that's your call, I won't be upset), I think there's a pretty common sentiment that Water is in contention for the most consistently useful type in the series in large part because of how good and important Surf is, and Gen 1 Kanto is one of the sets of games where I would say it's... maybe the best Type overall? Outside viewers looking in may be surprised to see that the infamously overpowered Psychic-Type doesn't top my ranking, but I feel like Water benefits more from having a more consistent availability of its best STAB moves throughout the game as well as better species availability than the generally higher ceiling, but less common Psychic-Types. All of Squirtle, Magikarp, the fossils, and Eevee (Vaporeon) are available as gift Pokémon too, whereas some of Kanto's best fully evolved Psychic-Types like Exeggutor, Alakazam, and to a lesser extent Mr. Mime all feel a bit out of the way in their own right. Ground joins Water and Psychic in the S Tier for me, but only in Gen 1 specifically since the move Dig received a noticeable base power nerf in future games and the Ability Levitate was also created. Both forms of Nidoran and Diglett/Dugtrio are also some of the best Pokémon for a Gen 1 Kanto playthrough in my opinion, but the dropoff between those three and the other Ground-Types is enough for me to comfortably give Ground-Type the bronze medal here.

On the other end of the viability spectrum, Fighting and Bug have very similar problems that, for me at least, place them at the bottom of this game's barrel. They barely have any viable STAB moves, and the Pokémon available are either too weak compared to what other types offer or unfortunately have bad type matchups against Kanto's major battles. I give Fighting the edge over Bug because as notoriously awful Fighting-Type moves are in Gen 1, they're still arguably better than the close-to-nonexistent tools Bug has to work with, and because in Pokémon Yellow specifically you can get a Machoke that evolves into a Machamp from an in-game trade. I was tempted to put Poison in D Tier as well, but I think their far larger list of available Pokémon (including a solid Starter Pokémon in Bulbasaur) and ability to take advantage of "Good AI" mechanics against certain Psychic-Type moves just barely bumps Poison above these two, even if their arguably only good STAB is the weaker and limited distributed Sludge learned by two evolution lines. Not having Sludge Bomb hurts Poison-Types a lot in this generation, as does most of Kanto's Grass-Types also being part Poison-Type.
 
What if Pokémon Red, Green, Blue, and Yellow had an in-game tier list, but instead of ranking the Pokémon themselves, we were ranking how good each Type is within the games?
I haven't played gen 1 in a long time but hopefully my memory is somewhat intact.

While I agree Ground is a good typing, I don't think it is on the same level as Water and Psychic and more in line with Grass. Dig and Earthquake are the only good attacks it has both are single use, mostly TM exclusive, moves. Every other attack is either a Marowak signature move or Sand-Attack. Ground Pokemon also tend to be a bit slow and the typing doesn't offer too much defensively.

I think Dragon is way too high. What does this typing even really do? It has no real STAB move, so it only offers some elemental resists. But the only available Dragon line in the game is horrible, so there is that. I personally would rank the typing alongside Bug in D.

Ghost also feels too high and better off in top of C. It has no good STAB moves and its Normal and Fighting immunities are its only good traits. The only Ghost line needs some TMs to function well. Ice and Electric both feel better to me.

Rock is really hard to judge. Rock Slide is TM exclusive and Rock Throw is one of the worst moves in the game. But most Rock types are also Ground which is a good type, and those that have another secondary typing kind of welcome the Rock typing. Rock has great resists in Normal, Poison and Flying. It is pretty similar to Ghost in its role, but I feel like it does it better and there are more Pokemon that like the type.

I feel like Fighting should switch places with Poison. While Fighting few good STAB moves and the type doesn't line up well versus the Psychic and Poison types, most have good offenses and can at least use other non-STAB physical moves decently well. The Hitmon brothers also aren't good but at least they are free gift Pokemon. Poison meanwhile is just bad at almost everything. It is hard to find a Pokemon that wouldn't benefit from losing its Poison typing. When Poison is the most common type in Kanto, Poison resisting Poison is a real bummer. Not there are many good Poison moves. Close to all Poison Pokemon (at least the ones who are "central" Poison types) have awful movepools, stats or evolution levels. The only good Poison Pokemon are good because they have another better typing. Poison is pretty much only downside.

I tried to make such a list for Hoenn before too but I have come to the realization that making a typing tier list for older gens is really tricky. When the national dexes are smaller than those of modern gens, you mostly aren't ranking types, you are ranking Pokemon. We don't rank Ghost and Dragon, we rank Gastly and Dratini. I might be true that the typing in a vacuum has more potential but if there are so few Pokemon available of some types, it is very hard to rank them. Especially when those few Pokemon of the type have a secondary typing, like with Gastly. Still a fun topic to think about, though.
 
What if Pokémon Red, Green, Blue, and Yellow had an in-game tier list, but instead of ranking the Pokémon themselves, we were ranking how good each Type is within the games?

This is a pretty neat idea, although I wanted to try my hand at trying to quantify this concept in something more objective. To that end, I came up with a rough scoring system based on the RBY In-Game Tier List published on the website and the 6 tiers it uses. An S-tier Pokemon with the typing contributes 3 points towards that type, with A-tier giving 2 points, B-tier giving 1, C giving 0, D giving -1, and E giving -2. This means that the highest tier has more weight in terms of scoring, but I think that mostly makes sense: these games are simple enough that efficient strategies can be used by most any Pokemon (besides Ditto), so a poor performance should count less than a highly impressive performance counts towards the total. Dual typings introduce a lot of volatility to this system, though, so dual-typings are halved. If the C tier is the absolute average of in-game performance, then giving 0 points to influence the score in neither a positive or negative way makes enough sense.

For example: Abra is a pure Psychic type Pokemon in S tier, giving 3 points for the Psychic type. Likewise, Parasect is a dual-type Bug/Grass in D tier, meaning that 1.5 points are subtracted from the Bug type and the Grass type, respectively. This is a (somewhat clunky) countermeasure to the way that dual-types can detract from a Pokemon's performance - for example, pretty much all the Poison types would be better with it removed. (This is not foreshadowing!)

Based on those metrics, here's the list (note that types are sorted within tiers):

1721000277810.png

And the raw numbers, of course:
  • Psychic: 11
  • Normal: -.5 with E tier, 1.5 without
  • Poison: 1
  • Ground: 6
  • Ice: 3
  • Flying: 0.5
  • Water: 5
  • Ghost: 1
  • Electric: 1
  • Grass: -.5
  • Fire: -3
  • Rock: -.5
  • Fighting: 2
  • Bug: -3
  • Dragon: -.5
A note on the tiers themselves: they were decided after the fact, mostly because I didn't know exactly what to anticipate. The tiers are mostly just a visual representation of the scoring bins, anyhow. My gut feeling was that Psychic would warrant its own tier - and I was correct to believe this! With almost double the points of the runner-up in Ground, it deserves to stand on its own in S tier. (I was considering an empty S tier and putting Psychic in an SSS tier to convey the overkill, but thought that would be a bit excessive.)

To compare our lists: I place Water, Ground, Grass, Flying, Dragon, Normal, Electric, Ghost, and Fire all lower, while Ice, Poison, and Fighting all rise. The only types that are consistent across both are Psychic, Rock, and Bug.

The next thing of note: the Normal type. It turns out that the E tier being comprised of two Normal types and nothing else is a major blow to their overall score, and utterly tanks the type despite Clefairy's S tier and a number of other solid placements. They can't shoulder all the blame, however - there's a lot of C tier Normals like Tauros that contribute nothing and D tier Normals like Lickitung that also bog the type down. But the E tier is arguably two great outliers, so I've used the Fairy icon to stand in for the Normal type with the E tier excluded.

The last thing that really caught me off guard: holy shit, what happened to Fire? Going in, I was expecting Bug to be the obvious loser, with Poison in second place. In hindsight, I placed too much mental emphasis on the crappy Poison types like Zubat and Grimer, while ignoring the good ones like the Nidos and Gengar. But for Fire to be last? Thinking on it and reading the descriptions, though, it makes sense - Fire types in RBY tend to suffer from poor availability and poor match-ups, with the best Fire type still being essentially reliant on the Dig TM for a good deal of the game. That's not a good sign!

To briefly go over the others:
  • Ground types are pretty straightforwardly good. The only one with a low placement is Cubone, but the high presence of Ground types in the A and B tiers really cinches it for them.
  • Ice benefits from having a handful of high placements and no bad performers dragging it down. The lack of pure Ice types prevents them from doing even better.
  • The Flying type is in the same boat as Ice, having no pure types. In this case, There's a lot of birds scattered across the A, B, and D tiers, coming out to a pretty average rating overall.
  • Water types being good should not surprise anyone. I'm going off my gut here since I'm not doing this all over again, but with a restructured point system, I think they might be able to beat Psychic types - the sheer amount of Water types in C tier, owing to their incredible end-game stretch from Blaine -> Giovanni -> killing Lance with Ice Beam, would swing things a lot.
  • Gengar is pretty neat, eh?
  • Electric is really bogged down by all the bad apples in D tier. My gut feeling is that they should be higher, really.
  • Grass suffers in the same way Flying does; the only pure Grass type is in D tier, so that's bogging down the rest of the Grass/Poison types eking out an honest living in B tier.
  • I had anticipated Rock being one of the lowest types, but in hindsight the Ground and Water subtypings do a lot for them in this environment. Aerodactyl having no STAB moves and Onix being... like that drag it down a fair bit.
  • Kinda odd to see a good performance from Fighting, huh? Fighting types just tend to have good availability that elevate them a lot - Hitmonlee drops in at a good time at a good level, a traded Machamp in Yellow after reaching Lavender Town is kinda crazy, and best of all, Yellow Mankey is one of the best answers to Brock you can ask for. This does a lot to make up for the lack of good STAB and particularly noteworthy match-ups.
  • With Bug, now is a good time to explain why I ordered the types in the raw data set the way I did: I just went down the list. Abra is first in S tier, Clefairy follows, so on and so forth. The first Bug type on the tier list is Weedle, in C tier. Ouch! There are no positive scores for any of the Bug types in RBY; at least Charmander was hanging out in B tier for one positive ranking. Though maybe that makes it more impressive that the Bug type held even to Fire even with no positive rankings? I don't know, do with that what you will.
  • Dragonite's kinda lame, eh?
If you notice any errors in my methodology (probably just basic counting, or an overall lack of statistics knowledge), feel free to point them out. This was surprisingly fun to do!
 
This is a pretty neat idea, although I wanted to try my hand at trying to quantify this concept in something more objective. To that end, I came up with a rough scoring system based on the RBY In-Game Tier List published on the website and the 6 tiers it uses. An S-tier Pokemon with the typing contributes 3 points towards that type, with A-tier giving 2 points, B-tier giving 1, C giving 0, D giving -1, and E giving -2. This means that the highest tier has more weight in terms of scoring, but I think that mostly makes sense: these games are simple enough that efficient strategies can be used by most any Pokemon (besides Ditto), so a poor performance should count less than a highly impressive performance counts towards the total. Dual typings introduce a lot of volatility to this system, though, so dual-typings are halved. If the C tier is the absolute average of in-game performance, then giving 0 points to influence the score in neither a positive or negative way makes enough sense.

For example: Abra is a pure Psychic type Pokemon in S tier, giving 3 points for the Psychic type. Likewise, Parasect is a dual-type Bug/Grass in D tier, meaning that 1.5 points are subtracted from the Bug type and the Grass type, respectively. This is a (somewhat clunky) countermeasure to the way that dual-types can detract from a Pokemon's performance - for example, pretty much all the Poison types would be better with it removed. (This is not foreshadowing!)

Based on those metrics, here's the list (note that types are sorted within tiers):

View attachment 648065
And the raw numbers, of course:
  • Psychic: 11
  • Normal: -.5 with E tier, 1.5 without
  • Poison: 1
  • Ground: 6
  • Ice: 3
  • Flying: 0.5
  • Water: 5
  • Ghost: 1
  • Electric: 1
  • Grass: -.5
  • Fire: -3
  • Rock: -.5
  • Fighting: 2
  • Bug: -3
  • Dragon: -.5
A note on the tiers themselves: they were decided after the fact, mostly because I didn't know exactly what to anticipate. The tiers are mostly just a visual representation of the scoring bins, anyhow. My gut feeling was that Psychic would warrant its own tier - and I was correct to believe this! With almost double the points of the runner-up in Ground, it deserves to stand on its own in S tier. (I was considering an empty S tier and putting Psychic in an SSS tier to convey the overkill, but thought that would be a bit excessive.)

To compare our lists: I place Water, Ground, Grass, Flying, Dragon, Normal, Electric, Ghost, and Fire all lower, while Ice, Poison, and Fighting all rise. The only types that are consistent across both are Psychic, Rock, and Bug.

The next thing of note: the Normal type. It turns out that the E tier being comprised of two Normal types and nothing else is a major blow to their overall score, and utterly tanks the type despite Clefairy's S tier and a number of other solid placements. They can't shoulder all the blame, however - there's a lot of C tier Normals like Tauros that contribute nothing and D tier Normals like Lickitung that also bog the type down. But the E tier is arguably two great outliers, so I've used the Fairy icon to stand in for the Normal type with the E tier excluded.

The last thing that really caught me off guard: holy shit, what happened to Fire? Going in, I was expecting Bug to be the obvious loser, with Poison in second place. In hindsight, I placed too much mental emphasis on the crappy Poison types like Zubat and Grimer, while ignoring the good ones like the Nidos and Gengar. But for Fire to be last? Thinking on it and reading the descriptions, though, it makes sense - Fire types in RBY tend to suffer from poor availability and poor match-ups, with the best Fire type still being essentially reliant on the Dig TM for a good deal of the game. That's not a good sign!

To briefly go over the others:
  • Ground types are pretty straightforwardly good. The only one with a low placement is Cubone, but the high presence of Ground types in the A and B tiers really cinches it for them.
  • Ice benefits from having a handful of high placements and no bad performers dragging it down. The lack of pure Ice types prevents them from doing even better.
  • The Flying type is in the same boat as Ice, having no pure types. In this case, There's a lot of birds scattered across the A, B, and D tiers, coming out to a pretty average rating overall.
  • Water types being good should not surprise anyone. I'm going off my gut here since I'm not doing this all over again, but with a restructured point system, I think they might be able to beat Psychic types - the sheer amount of Water types in C tier, owing to their incredible end-game stretch from Blaine -> Giovanni -> killing Lance with Ice Beam, would swing things a lot.
  • Gengar is pretty neat, eh?
  • Electric is really bogged down by all the bad apples in D tier. My gut feeling is that they should be higher, really.
  • Grass suffers in the same way Flying does; the only pure Grass type is in D tier, so that's bogging down the rest of the Grass/Poison types eking out an honest living in B tier.
  • I had anticipated Rock being one of the lowest types, but in hindsight the Ground and Water subtypings do a lot for them in this environment. Aerodactyl having no STAB moves and Onix being... like that drag it down a fair bit.
  • Kinda odd to see a good performance from Fighting, huh? Fighting types just tend to have good availability that elevate them a lot - Hitmonlee drops in at a good time at a good level, a traded Machamp in Yellow after reaching Lavender Town is kinda crazy, and best of all, Yellow Mankey is one of the best answers to Brock you can ask for. This does a lot to make up for the lack of good STAB and particularly noteworthy match-ups.
  • With Bug, now is a good time to explain why I ordered the types in the raw data set the way I did: I just went down the list. Abra is first in S tier, Clefairy follows, so on and so forth. The first Bug type on the tier list is Weedle, in C tier. Ouch! There are no positive scores for any of the Bug types in RBY; at least Charmander was hanging out in B tier for one positive ranking. Though maybe that makes it more impressive that the Bug type held even to Fire even with no positive rankings? I don't know, do with that what you will.
  • Dragonite's kinda lame, eh?
If you notice any errors in my methodology (probably just basic counting, or an overall lack of statistics knowledge), feel free to point them out. This was surprisingly fun to do!
The biggest difference I can see between your score system and my own opinions were how the Dragon-Type was ranked. I am of the personal opinion that in a format dominated by strong offensive options and earlier in-game access, Dratini’s lack of immediate offensive production outside of Dragon Rage and TM coverage moves is at least partially made up for by an underrated defensive profile. That is to say, this is a situation where even though the Pokémon’s value per turn might not be very high, the ability to consistently make use of the options you do have is just as valuable, especially in a game with limited options like Gen 1 Kanto. Dratini can actually be obtained as early as Surge and Erika’s Gyms, should you be willing to backtrack and make use of Dratini’s resistances instead of its nonexistent STAB.

This is all a roundabout, more complicated way of saying that Dragon-Types (Dratini) have a 3-0 matchup spread against the remaining Kanto Gyms, and that it and by extension Dragonair will be dealing more damage to opponents with Dragon Rage + coverage on average than opponents will be doing to it because of Gen 1’s Trainer AI mechanics. The middle of A Tier admittedly might be a little high given Dratini’s reliance on TMs and the extra grinding necessary to get Dratini in Celadon, as well as a losing matchup against Lorelei, but I don’t see why Dragon couldn’t be regarded as a solid mid-tier Type, even when Dragon Rage starts to fall off because by then you’ll have more money for TMs too (and Fire Blast for free from Blaine if you’re interested).

As for the rest of your post- I was surprised to see that I had so many Types ranked higher than you did, and that Fighting does better in Kanto than I initially thought. I like this system because it provides a mathematically accurate way of measuring stage differences between Pokémon while still taking each Type’s viability into account. I can honestly get behind any placement order of Water, Psychic and Ground as this game’s Top 3, and I remain open to having my mind changed on the rest of the Types. You guys have far more experience with these lists than myself, after all. I guess availability really is that important for certain Types, especially Electric which I arguably also had ranked too high. In any case, I appreciate the help! :)
 
What if Chinchou could be fished up in the Abandoned Ship with the Good Rod in Emerald?
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Chinchou is rather misplaced in Emerald. Despite having an amazing typing and movepool, it has two big problems that prevent it from being upon the higher tiers. The first one is its availability. It comes really late into the game as it is a pure seaweed encounter. That means the 7th gym badge is required for the Dive HM to encounter it. Like with so many other Dive locked late game Pokemon, it has barely battles left to contribute in. And despite the fact, that its typing matches up rather well, the second big problem is that it just has too low stats for the late game. Lanturn has good HP but all its other stats are too medicore for that point of the game. Just base 76 special attack and defense, base 67 speed and base 58! defense is way too low. And because Chinchou comes so late, it will not get enough EVs to compensate for that before the game is over. It even has a slow level growth. In my Emerald tier list I placed it in the middle of D-rank.

So a lot of things go against it despite its first good look. I think most of them can be solved with an earlier encounter. Because of that I will explore how Chinchou and Lanturn would fare if Chinchou could be caught earlier. That would allow it to contribute more and also built up more EVs that patch up its mediocre stats. In the Abandoned Ship there is a small patch of water where you can dive later to reach the Scanner for Clamperl. I think it makes sence flavorfully that Chinchou would hide in the depths of a beached ship that has been there for a long time. Like always lets assume Chinchou takes over the encounter table of one of the Pokemon that is already there. In this case, Tentacool. So Chinchou would be encountered with the Good Rod at levels 10-30 with a 40% chance in the Abandoned Ship.
I also thought about Chinchou being availble on Route 110 with the Old Rod. That also made sense to me as there are many trainers with Electric Pokemon on Cycling Road there and New Mauvile is also nearby. That would allow Chinchou to contribute in even more battles, most notably Wattson and Flannery. But since Chinchou has never be available with the Old Rod in any game, only with the Good or Super Rod, I ultimately desided against it.

Changed Chinchou performance:

After we get the 5th gym badge and the Surf HM in Petalburg City, we need to head to Route 118, east of Mauvile City, to get the Super Rod, which lets us catch Chinchou. As always, the fisherman that gives you the rod stands on the other side of river, so you need to catch another Surf user first. We would need one anyway since we need to get to the Abandoned Ship. Just catch a Tentacool with the Old Rod in Dewford Town earlier. Once we got the Rod, we venture south to Slateport City and then surf west until we reach the Abandoned Ship. But we talk to Wattson and shut down New Mauvile on the way back, so we get the free Thunderbolt TM.
As always, the huge encounter range from the Good Rod can be a pain. We certainly don't want a level 10 Chinchou that is massively underleveled. But even a level 20 Chinchou will do because the surrounding Water routes are a great place for leveling up Chinchou. As soon as we catch one, we can teach it Thunderbolt and Surf right away, and also pick up the Ice Beam TM on the Abandoned Ship and give Chinchou that TM as well. A few levels later, Chinchou will also learn Spark via level-up for another great STAB move for route clearing. With that Chinchou has an already perfect moveset almost instantly.
Chinchou soon evolves at level 27 into Lanturn. It should have an easy time catching up to your other team members with its great typing and high powered moves, even with its slow level growth nature. Once we cleared all the Water routes around the starting island, we make our way towards Fortree City. Lanturn likes the rain on Route 119 to boost its Surfs and makes most trainer battles there easy. Some Grass Pokemon can be annoying but Ice Beam is strong enough to take care of them. Once we get the Devon Scope from Steven, Lanturn is decent at defeating the hidden Kecleons by hitting them with Surf first, then getting a super-effective Thunderbolt in after it changes its typing. With that we go in the Fortree City Gym.

Winona:
Lanturn outspeeds Swablu and cleanly OHKOs it with Thunderbolt. Tropius is also slower and Lanturn has a good chance to OHKO with Ice Beam. Tropius can only do any damage if it uses Sunny Day on the one turn it gets instead of going for raw Solar Beam. Lanturn takes about 55% from it. If Lanturn has the Quick Claw equipped then the odds of taking an attack is even lower. Pelipper is slower and Lanturn lands a clean OHKO. Skarmory can't really do anything to Lanturn, is outsped and Thunderbolt has even a chance to OHKO it. Altaria is the only dangerous Pokemon as a neutral Earthquake deals 50% to Lanturn and it is faster. A Sitrus Berry, that you could pick up earlier on Route 118, should be equipped to Lanturn to take it on. Spark into Ice Beam has a good chance to OHKO Altaria. Thunderbolt into Ice Beam is safter as it is a guaranteed 2HKO, but if you get lucky with Spark, then Lanturn only needs to take a single hit and as such is protected against critical hits.
Overall performance: A

Lanturn likes the rain on Route 120 as well, and generally has good matchups among the trainer Pokemon there as well. Route 123 and Mt. Pyre should go smooth as well. We also pick up the Sea Incense to power up Lanturn's Surfs. Then it is evil team busting time. Lanturn does well against Team Aqua on Mt. Pyre and in their hideout in Lilycove City as well as Team Magma in their hideout in Mt. Chimney. With that the late game Water routes are open, and just like vanilla Lanturn, it has great matchups against the route trainers there. But now Lanturn can wrek havoc as soon as we get there, as we have it right away and also already boosted up. The swimmers and land trainers around Moosdeep City are mostly good matchups for Lanturn. We venture into Shoal Cave to pick up the Never-Melt Ice and then take on the Psychic gym.

Tate & Liza:
Lanturn's lower stats do finally start showing here. Xatu is faster than it and a +1 Psychic does have chance to 2HKO Lanturn. At least Thunderbolt can always 2HKO Xatu in return, even through a Calm Mind boost. Xatu can also be annoying with Sunny Day or Confuse Ray. Claydol is even worse, as it likely outspeeds Lanturn and Earthquake is doing at least 60%. Lanturn needs the Never-Melt Ice to have a chance at a Ice Beam 2HKO. Surf can't do it due to the gen 3 spread attack penalty. Solrock is less scary. It could even be a speed tie and it can only be threatening with Solar Beam which doesn't even do half, and requires a turn to setup sun if Xatu didn't do so before. Lunatone is also equalish in speed to Lanturn and can get out of hand with Calm Mind. Without boots, Surf is a 3HKO on both.
It shows yet again, that most special attacking Water types don't have a good matchup here, due to gen 3's brutal damage reduction of Surf in double battles.
Overall performance: C

Lanturn does well at clearing Team Magma inside the Mossdeep Space Center, but be aware that Surf is not always an OHKO on Maxie's level 44 Camerupt in the double battle with Steven. The Water routes go rather smoothly, you can even pick up the Magnet from the Trick House to give Lanturn's Electric attacks more power. Archie is also an easy fight for Lanturn in Seafloor Cavern. After the story element of the three weather legends, we enter the last gym.

Juan:
Luvdisc outspeeds but can only be annying with status moves. Kingdra is walled by Lanturn and Thunderbolt is a guaranteed 3HKO, so it can't Rest loop you. Unless you get unlucky with evasion multiple times, this should be an easy matchup. Sealeo is outsped and a guaranteed OHKO with Magnet Thunderbolt. Lanturn does outspeed Whishcash but Surf is barely not a 2HKO and its STAB Earthquake is. Not much to be done here unless you try to get lucky with a crit or Ice Beam freeze. Or use an X item if you are into that. Crawdaunt is outsped and cleanly OHKOed by Thunderbolt.
Overall performance: A

Lanturn does feel its lower stats against some Victory Road opponents but does mostly fine.

Elite Four and Champion:
Lanturn's extra EVs do a lot of work here, and it generally does decent against all four members and champion Wallace. It excells rarely but the Sidney, Glacia and Wallace battles become a lot better.
Overall performance: B

In total, I would rank changed Chinchou middle of B-rank. Two whole ranks higher than it currently is.


Changed Chinchou would be similar to Tentacool. Good typing and moves but they eventually fall off a bit since they barely offer any utility and have to get by with their medium stats alone. Still though, changed Chinchou would be a lot more usuable and also fit into the game more. If you went the extra mile and assumed it could be caught on Route 110 with the Old Rod alreay, then it would likely be middle of A-rank even. It really is a Pokemon that is totally saved by its good typing.
 
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Previously I wrote about Elekid, who from changing its availability to before the fifth gym instead of the eighth, vaults it at least two tiers in my opinion, possibly even three. Now let's take another Platinum example where I don't quite see that happening.

Take this statement in Snorunt's Ruby dex description: "In seasons without snow, such as spring and summer, this POKéMON steals away to live quietly among stalactites and stalagmites deep in caverns." Let's use this to make a not totally unreasonable leap that Snorunt could be available in the northern (colder) portion of Mt. Coronet to the right of Eterna City at a 5% encounter rate instead of Nosepass.

Now let's assess Snorunt (eventually evolving into Froslass) on the basis of availability before the second gym instead of the seventh.

The results: not great, in my opinion. My view of its net new gym & villain matchups:

- Gardenia: A
- Jupiter: C
- Fantina: C
- Maylene: F
- Wake: D (prior to which it will evolve)
- Byron: F
- Saturn 1/2 & Mars 2: who cares, really

Its ranking in the latest DPPt tier list is a D, which I agree with. And the extra EVs through earlier availability wouldn't change that much. Unfortunately, its net new matchups above do very little to change that either.

I will say its ace in the hole is such an early Icy Wind, which can be clutch against difficult foes like Jupiter's Skuntank and Fantina's Mismagius. And it gives a surprisingly decent performance against Fantina in general between Bite and the utility of Icy Wind.

But its stats, matchups, and move pacing just aren't good enough. The wait for the Shadow Ball TM is agonizing, and you really need to spend on the Game Corner Ice Beam TM ASAP to get any really utility out of it. Evolving with the Dawn Stone next to Pastoria is nice, but it's not like Froslass is busting down doors with its power.

Unfortunately, even with this significant availability change I could only see Snorunt (Froslass) jumping from D to C.
 
Disclaimer: These are being tested in Gold. Currently at Bugsy.

What if we allowed the Stadium 2 Gligar Gift to be tiered in GSC?

For reference, this is what it comes with.
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Hahahaha, oh wow, this mon is busted. Even without spamming EQ, Wing Attack does so much. Even on bad matchups like Rival 2's Croconaw, Gligar outspeeds it and 3HKOs with EQ before getting 3HKO'd itself. Everything else gets swept with the greatest of ease.

What if Charmander was the Fire starter instead of Cyndaquil?

With identical stats, this should be an easy question, right? Well...
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They really did Quilava dirty :totodiLUL:
STAB hardly matters against Falkner, but anything post-Goldenrod should be WAY better.
 
:dp/aerodactyl:
What if Old Amber is obtainable before getting the National Dex(before post-game) in Platinum?
Old Amber is obtainable from Underground, and normally, it is only available after you get the National Dex, but what if you could get such item before post-game?

How it would fare against boss fights
(Normally, i would count all the Barry fights and post-Canalave Galactic Commanders. But here, i would skip them here. Would also skip Jupiter fight, Skuntank is just almost impossible to beat, some required luck to do so like Staravia, Bibarel, and Wormadam-Trash based on my experience)

Gardenia: At first glance, it looks automatically great because its a Flying-type, then you realized... it starts off with Bite, Scary Face, Roar, and Agility... It doesn't even joined with Wing Attack and to make matters worse, it doesn't even learn Pluck TM too.

Fantina: This is where its high speed comes to play, comfortably outspeeding the dreaded Mismagius. I've calced how it would fare and it would seem Aero's Bite is a 3HKO while it tanks 2 Shadow Balls (with the help of Oran Berry) at Level 24.

Maylene: Rock Tomb damage from either Meditite or Machoke could caused Aerodactyl to get KOed(or worse outsped) by Lucario. Earthquake doesn't 1HKO Meditite nor Lucario, and you would need to grab the Aerial Ace TM in case of the former,

Wake: Wouldn't say much here, Floatzel probably beats you with Brine into Aqua Jet.

Byron: Earthquake coverage comes in handy here. Bastiodon could cause issue unless it missed a Stone Edge or it went for Iron Defense on turn 1

Candice: This fight looks kind of rough for Aerodactyl. Its Rock STAB at this point is still Rock Tomb, lol (you don't get Rock Slide until after this fight), which really sucks because it can have the speed to outspeed Froslass. You could smack Abomasnow with Specs Fire Blast, ig?

Cyrus(Distortion): Everything is weak to Rock Slide, though Weavile may likely outspeed you due to level difference and Gyarados will knock you out and will lived a hit due to Intimidate.

Volkner: Earthquake is useful, but you may not 1HKO Luxray and Electivire. You may need Earth Plate/Soft Sand against Jolteon based on my experience with Tangrowth

Aaron: Great

Bertha: Not good

Flint: Great, you also likely outspeed Infernape too.

Lucian: Has Crunch to smash Psychics and this is another case of 130 Speed being great, as you may able to outspeed Alakazam.

Cynthia: You could take out Togekiss, though Shock Wave/Water Pulse may posed problem. Roserade is dispatched by Fly.

Overall, Aerodactyl has some interesting matchups, and I think it might be C. Aerodactyl joins quite early around Gym 2 at a high level (L20). It also has 130 Speed, which is amazing in this game based on my experience using Jolteon and Crobat. Other fast mons like Infernape, Staraptor, Garchomp, Rapidash, Kadabra, etc. still get outsped by insanely fast mons especially in the late game, and this is also where the two 130 Speed mon can outspeed most of them. Its movepool reminds me of Crobat in a way its strongest STAB is Fly, and if you're not using it, then your stuck with 60 BP Aerial Ace or 50 BP Rock Tomb. Aerodactyl's coverage is at least better, notably it learns Earthquake. Getting the Old Amber can be annoying tho.
 
Inspired by being able to do just that in Renegade Platinum...

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What if you could get to Route 216 before Gardenia in Platinum?



Well for one, it'd mean that you can get an early ice type in a Pokémon game. Three of them, in fact. I'll go over Sneasel briefly here, but I do plan on doing a more in-depth look at all of them later. I will also be assuming that in this version of the game the levels are slightly higher than in the Mount Coronet section leading up to it so they can be caught between 14 and 16.

Sneasel, Sneasel, Sneasel. In terms of stats it's the clear winner - it hits harder before evolving than the other 2 do after - but in terms of movepool it is easily the worst. Taunt, Quick Attack, Screech and Faint Attack is a very solid moveset for when you catch it, 60 base power off of 95 base attack is very strong for that point in the game, the problem is that it doesn't really improve naturally - The only true upgrades it learns are Ice Shard, its first Ice STAB, at 49 as Sneasel specifically, or Night Slash at 35 as Weavile which will need to be Heart Scale'd onto it, everything else it learns by level up does less than Faint Attack.
If you want a usable Ice STAB you need to farm shards to tutor Ice Punch, while gen 4 is still in the era of pokémon having to use off stats for STAB Sneasel's 35 Special Attack is just too bad. TMs don't solve this issue either, the only physical Ice move is Avalanche and Sneasel/Weavil is a glass cannon. It can get some decent coverage via TM, and I don't think any of Dig, Brick Break or Poison Jab are that needed by other Pokémon, but they're not really that strong either. There's also Swords Dance for 80000 Pokémoney in the game corner, which isn't really that much - you'll have the Vs Seeker by that point and the Socialite, Gentleman, Rich Boy and Lady on 212 give 19000 combined - with the Amulet Coin, that's barely over 2 battles with the group to afford it.

Gym Performances

All battles are with the assumption that the player has a neutral nature, all 15 IVs and no EVs, and is the same level as their ace. From Candice's Froslass on I use the values from this thread on Nuzlockeforums, before that it assumes neutral nature and all 31 IVs.

Gardenia - Not good. You can beat Turtwig or Cherrim, though if Razor Leaf crite you probably lose and I'm not sure what effect Reflect would have, but always* lose to Roserade due to the Sitrus Berry and there's a decent chance you'd lose without it.
*Unless your second hit is a crit

Fantina - Probably the best performance, it's as close to a perfect counter to her as you're going to get. Even if you take get hit with Shadow Sneak x2 and Sucker Punch at max damage Sneasel will still always survive 2 non crit attacks from Mismagius while 2 shotting it through the Sitrus Berry, and if you've got a decent speed IV you'll outspeed it too. Only Will-O-Wisp and Confuse Ray can cause problems, and either can be taken care of by a held item.

Maylene - Dark/Ice v Fighting. You lose, badly.

Crasher Wake - If you've got Swords Dance you can beat Quagsire as long as it doesn't Yawn or crit, or a Chesto Berry if you can get them by gym 5, but you lose to Gyarados and Floatzel.

Byron - Can take out Magneton with Dig and it or Birck Break will do a big chunk to Bastiodon but Steelix mauls you and if Bastiodon connects with Stone Edge you're just dead.


Candice - If you have neutral coverage that isn't Aerial Ace you beat her Sneasel and if you have Brick Break you annihilate it. You don't stand a chance against Piloswine unless you have Brick Break and even with it you probably still lose. Abomasnow is the same deal except worse because at least with Piloswine there was a chance to survive while Focus Blast just pulps you. Froslass always dies to 2 Faint Attacks, so as long as Blizzard doesn't crit you're good.

Volkner - If Jolteon doesn't use Thunder Wave turn 1 or you have a Cherri Berry then a Swords Dance+Dig Weavile can sweep this fight, though you have to be a bit careful if it hits Iron Tail - Quick Attacks from all of it, Raichu and Electivire can knock Weavile out if that happens. If you don't have Dig then Ice Punch/Night Slash will still one shot Jolteon at +2, with Feint Attack having a very high chance of doing so, while all three will one shot Raichu, however Luxray will always survive a non crit and Fire Fang will almost certainly take you out, while Electivire's a coinflip that has an even higher chance to KO you.

Elite 4 Performances Aaron assumes you are the same level as his ace, then each subsequent battle increases by one from there.

Aaron - Ice Punch won't one shot Yanmega, which takes you out with Bug Buzz over half the time. Scizor you're just... dead. Vespiquen has a 19%c chance to beat you and even if you roll the dice, set up in its face as it uses defend order and get out without damage you still lose to Heracross who beats you with 3 different moves. Drapion is doable if you go in with a boost and full HP, but how tf are you going to do that?

Bertha - Even after setting up you can't OHKO Whiscash without a crit, while Earthquake has a good chance of taking you down in 2. Gliscor is Gliscor - it can 2 hit you but you outspeed and 1HKO without needing to boost. If you're set up you have a 56% chance to one shot the hippo but if not then you're probably dead to Earthquake or Stone Edge due to having taken damage in the process. Golem is not the same story, to my surprise - +2 Ice Punch always KOs. Rhyperior always lives a +2 Non Crit, you live Avalanche and Earthquakes 2 lowest rolls from full but other than that you're hoping for a miss.

Flint - While it's unlikely, Weavile is actually capable of beating Houndoom if it has Dig or Brickbreak as Flamethrower doesn't always KO and they both 2 shot. Can't say the same about Flareon though without getting really lucky - you need Houndoom to not Flamethrower turn 1 while you Swords Dance, otherwise you either get annihilated by Overheat when Dig fails to KO or outsped by Quick Attack after barely surviving the flames. If that does happen you're actually able to take out Rapidash as well, though if it doesn't it's the same story as Flareon except without even a 10% miss chance to hope for as Flare Blitz takes you out. Infernape... you're just dead unless you get extremely lucky, to the point where I'm not even sure that's possible with how the game is coded. Magmortar always one shots with Flamethrower, but if you somehow get a +2 Weavile in front of it you can oneshot with Dig.

Lucian - Mr. Mime dies to Feint Attack, never mind Night Slash. Espeon needs the extra power and even then can still survive. Bronzong is the real roadblock - Unless you managed to get to +6
Bronzong will almost certainly tank your hit and if you did get to +6 it was probably against Mr. Mime which means there's probably at least 1 turn of Reflect left. Gyro Ball won't one hit from full, but if you haven't boosted at all that won't help you that much and if you have boosted then unless Mr. Mime used Light Screen you'll be low enough that it will one shot. If you're lucky enough to have a +speed Weavile, one with a Speed IV of 22 or above or, most likely of all, a few Speed EVs then you will outspeed and oneshot Alakazam otherwise you need to hope it misses Focus Blast. Gallade will survive a non-crit Ice Punch unless you get to +4 and non-crit Night Slash does less.

Cynthia - You can beat Spiritomb as long as it doesn't crit or get an Omniboost due to you being faster. Roserade is a physically frail Grass type. Togekiss will annihilate you with Aura Sphere and can take an unboosted Ice Punch but if you can get a boost in somewhere you can one shot it, and Lucario is much the same except you need Dig or Brick Break instead. You once again need a boost to defeat Milotic, however this has the slight difference of Night Slash and Surf both being 2HKOs on the other. Weavile can one shot Grachomp with Ice Punch but every move it has except, ironically, Flamethrower can do the same to you.

All in all I don't think Sneasel would be that impressive if it was available early - only 2 possible standout performances in 7 gyms, 3 if you stretch the definition of standout, and even when it has the advantage it's not great against the Elite 4 - its best performance there might actually be Cynthia, as you can get to +2 on Spiritomb and from there the only other pokémon that doesn't get 1 shot can't take you out in one without a crit, though you have to heal up before defeating Spiritomb so you don't have to roll the dice on whether Lucario will use Extremespeed or Aura Sphere/Stone Edge.
 
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Inspired by being able to do just that in Renegade Platinum...

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What if you could get to Route 216 before Gardenia in Platinum?



Well for one, it'd mean that you can get an early ice type in a Pokémon game. Three of them, in fact. I'll go over Sneasel briefly here, but I do plan on doing a more in-depth look at all of them later. I will also be assuming that in this version of the game the levels are slightly higher than in the Mount Coronet section leading up to it so they can be caught between 14 and 16.

Sneasel, Sneasel, Sneasel. In terms of stats it's the clear winner - it hits harder before evolving than the other 2 do after - but in terms of movepool it is easily the worst. Taunt, Quick Attack, Screech and Faint Attack is a very solid moveset for when you catch it, 60 base power off of 95 base attack is very strong for that point in the game, the problem is that it doesn't really improve naturally - The only true upgrades it learns are Ice Shard, its first Ice STAB, at 49 as Sneasel specifically, or Night Slash at 35 as Weavile which will need to be Heart Scale'd onto it, everything else it learns by level up does less than Faint Attack.
If you want a usable Ice STAB you need to farm shards to tutor Ice Punch, while gen 4 is still in the era of pokémon having to use off stats for STAB Sneasel's 35 Special Attack is just too bad. TMs don't solve this issue either, the only physical Ice move is Avalanche and Sneasel/Weavil is a glass cannon. It can get some decent coverage via TM, and I don't think any of Dig, Brick Break or Poison Jab are that needed by other Pokémon, but they're not really that strong either. There's also Swords Dance for 80000 Pokémoney in the game corner, which isn't really that much - you'll have the Vs Seeker by that point and the Socialite, Gentleman, Rich Boy and Lady on 212 give 19000 combined - with the Amulet Coin, that's barely over 2 battles with the group to afford it.

Gym Performances

All battles are with the assumption that the player has a neutral nature, all 15 IVs and no EVs, and is the same level as their ace. From Candice's Froslass on I use the values from this thread on Nuzlockeforums, before that it assumes neutral nature and all 31 IVs.

Gardenia - Not good. You can beat Turtwig or Cherrim, though if Razor Leaf crite you probably lose and I'm not sure what effect Reflect would have, but always* lose to Roserade due to the Sitrus Berry and there's a decent chance you'd lose without it.
*Unless your second hit is a crit

Fantina - Probably the best performance, it's as close to a perfect counter to her as you're going to get. Even if you take get hit with Shadow Sneak x2 and Sucker Punch at max damage Sneasel will still always survive 2 non crit attacks from Mismagius while 2 shotting it through the Sitrus Berry, and if you've got a decent speed IV you'll outspeed it too. Only Will-O-Wisp and Confuse Ray can cause problems, and either can be taken care of by a held item.

Maylene - Dark/Ice v Fighting. You lose, badly.

Crasher Wake - If you've got Swords Dance you can beat Quagsire as long as it doesn't Yawn or crit, or a Chesto Berry if you can get them by gym 5, but you lose to Gyarados and Floatzel.

Byron - Can take out Magneton with Dig and it or Birck Break will do a big chunk to Bastiodon but Steelix mauls you and if Bastiodon connects with Stone Edge you're just dead.


Candice - If you have neutral coverage that isn't Aerial Ace you beat her Sneasel and if you have Brick Break you annihilate it. You don't stand a chance against Piloswine unless you have Brick Break and even with it you probably still lose. Abomasnow is the same deal except worse because at least with Piloswine there was a chance to survive while Focus Blast just pulps you. Froslass always dies to 2 Faint Attacks, so as long as Blizzard doesn't crit you're good.

Volkner - If Jolteon doesn't use Thunder Wave turn 1 or you have a Cherri Berry then a Swords Dance+Dig Weavile can sweep this fight, though you have to be a bit careful if it hits Iron Tail - Quick Attacks from all of it, Raichu and Electivire can knock Weavile out if that happens. If you don't have Dig then Ice Punch/Night Slash will still one shot Jolteon at +2, with Feint Attack having a very high chance of doing so, while all three will one shot Raichu, however Luxray will always survive a non crit and Fire Fang will almost certainly take you out, while Electivire's a coinflip that has an even higher chance to KO you.

Elite 4 Performances Aaron assumes you are the same level as his ace, then each subsequent battle increases by one from there.

Aaron - Ice Punch won't one shot Yanmega, which takes you out with Bug Buzz over half the time. Scizor you're just... dead. Vespiquen has a 19%c chance to beat you and even if you roll the dice, set up in its face as it uses defend order and get out without damage you still lose to Heracross who beats you with 3 different moves. Drapion is doable if you go in with a boost and full HP, but how tf are you going to do that?

Bertha - Even after setting up you can't OHKO Whiscash without a crit, while Earthquake has a good chance of taking you down in 2. Gliscor is Gliscor - it can 2 hit you but you outspeed and 1HKO without needing to boost. If you're set up you have a 56% chance to one shot the hippo but if not then you're probably dead to Earthquake or Stone Edge due to having taken damage in the process. Golem is not the same story, to my surprise - +2 Ice Punch always KOs. Rhyperior always lives a +2 Non Crit, you live Avalanche and Earthquakes 2 lowest rolls from full but other than that you're hoping for a miss.

Flint - While it's unlikely, Weavile is actually capable of beating Houndoom if it has Dig or Brickbreak as Flamethrower doesn't always KO and they both 2 shot. Can't say the same about Flareon though without getting really lucky - you need Houndoom to not Flamethrower turn 1 while you Swords Dance, otherwise you either get annihilated by Overheat when Dig fails to KO or outsped by Quick Attack after barely surviving the flames. If that does happen you're actually able to take out Rapidash as well, though if it doesn't it's the same story as Flareon except without even a 10% miss chance to hope for as Flare Blitz takes you out. Infernape... you're just dead unless you get extremely lucky, to the point where I'm not even sure that's possible with how the game is coded. Magmortar always one shots with Flamethrower, but if you somehow get a +2 Weavile in front of it you can oneshot with Dig.

Lucian - Mr. Mime dies to Feint Attack, never mind Night Slash. Espeon needs the extra power and even then can still survive. Bronzong is the real roadblock - Unless you managed to get to +6
Bronzong will almost certainly tank your hit and if you did get to +6 it was probably against Mr. Mime which means there's probably at least 1 turn of Reflect left. Gyro Ball won't one hit from full, but if you haven't boosted at all that won't help you that much and if you have boosted then unless Mr. Mime used Light Screen you'll be low enough that it will one shot. If you're lucky enough to have a +speed Weavile, one with a Speed IV of 22 or above or, most likely of all, a few Speed EVs then you will outspeed and oneshot Alakazam otherwise you need to hope it misses Focus Blast. Gallade will survive a non-crit Ice Punch unless you get to +4 and non-crit Night Slash does less.

Cynthia - You can beat Spiritomb as long as it doesn't crit or get an Omniboost due to you being faster. Roserade is a physically frail Grass type. Togekiss will annihilate you with Aura Sphere and can take an unboosted Ice Punch but if you can get a boost in somewhere you can one shot it, and Lucario is much the same except you need Dig or Brick Break instead. You once again need a boost to defeat Milotic, however this has the slight difference of Night Slash and Surf both being 2HKOs on the other. Weavile can one shot Grachomp with Ice Punch but every move it has except, ironically, Flamethrower can do the same to you.

All in all I don't think Sneasel would be that impressive if it was available early - only 2 possible standout performances in 7 gyms, 3 if you stretch the definition of standout, and even when it has the advantage it's not great against the Elite 4 - its best performance there might actually be Cynthia, as you can get to +2 on Spiritomb and from there the only other pokémon that doesn't get 1 shot can't take you out in one without a crit, though you have to heal up before defeating Spiritomb so you don't have to roll the dice on whether Lucario will use Extremespeed or Aura Sphere/Stone Edge.
ROM Hack tier lists in general would be interesting, I suppose the nuzlocke community kinda does it?

That aside, I was going to mention Dream World Pokemon for BW/2 would open up a lot of options (albeit now locked behind some kinda tool)
 
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