Expanded Tier List - What If?

[Merritt]

What pokemon would not be S rank in a SWSH DLC tier list?

To be clear, this isn't about the random stuff you can find on the Isle of Armor (although some of them are probably edging into a normal S rank, especially considering that DLC1 provides the exp charm and gives you easy nigh infinite watts for TRs) or the Crown Tundra wild Pokemon that are only catchable after the 8th badge, for all that I'm sure they can stomp the little remainder of the game. It's about the Dynamax Adventures Pokemon, baby.

This is mostly going to be a small set of Pokemon, put into two groups. First are the Pokemon that are legitimately so bad that even after coming at Level 65 and having at bare minimum one and more likely 2+ L or XL Exp Candies for a bonus level or a few (and evolution!), they are somehow going to not dominate the entire unsuspecting Galar region. There aren't very many of these.

Second group are the legendary Pokemon that are just way too annoying or difficult to catch anywhere close to consistently and will take enough time to acquire after saving their path that it should disqualify them from S. Honestly if you consider the chance of encountering any specific Pokemon in Dynamax Adventures then they're all unlikely enough that it should hold them back from S, but when virtually all of them work just as well as another it feels unreasonable to say that they're B rank or something just because getting Sceptile specifically is difficult.

Group 1: the buffoons

Chansey - It has a ridiculous level advantage. It also doesn't have the offensive stats to leverage that advantage as soon as you stop having a 50 level advantage and 35 SpA turns from bad to horrendous. The terrible defense is also a bit of a problem when it comes to having Chansey basically solo the game. After it evolves then it'll clear the game mostly fine, but friendship evolutions take time and that's enough to bump Chansey down to A or B.

Ditto - can you solo (insert pokemon game) with ditto?? 5M views. this one's even got imposter so you can't try to struggle cheese your way through a couple pokemon for the rest of your team to deal with. Probable E or lower rank.

Pyukumuku - pyukes in no attacking moves besides dynamax counter. With a team behind it it'll clear everything that isn't immune to Toxic eventually but man will it not be fast about it. Liable to be D rank, C if you're feeling generous for how slowly it poisons everything to death.

Barely Skimming By Pokemon That Are Still Probably S:

Jigglypuff - if the Moon Stone wasn't available immediately with only minor exploration, then maybe this one could be bad enough to only hit A. Wigglytuff's got sufficient stats to actually leverage its stupid level advantage, and while it might fall off at the very end of the game a little bit, it'll still be fine there and certainly can carry through that point without problem.

Munchlax - ok munchlax is actually pretty good and snorlax is exceptional but the friendship evolution might be late enough that munchlax could theoretically struggle to solo the entire game, but it's still probably going to do it.

Dunsparce - Dunsparce is Not a Very Good Pokemon but it is good enough that the level advantage probably carries you to the end of the game.

Audino - It's still getting you there, it just won't do it quite as fast as others because base 60 attacking stats will do that to you.

Group 2: the legendaries you probably won't get without several tries when you're playing solo without a good path

Kyogre / Groudon / Zygod - oh my god stop using spread moves please for the love of god why did that npc pick SALAZZLE

Reshiram / Dialga / Xerneas / Yveltal - Nothing really interesting here, and you can probably add or subtract several of the box legendaries or a couple basic legends (lookin at you lele) from this set. They just hit hard, don't go down easy, and the NPC picks probably screw you over. They're not as bad as the three above though.


With that, we've probably reduced the number of S rank Pokemon from Dynamax Adventures down to ~25 legendary Pokemon and 223 (I think?) regular Pokemon, potentially condensed a bit if you put the evolutions together. Sounds like a reasonable tier list to me?

 

[Paul Yoshi]

ROM Hack tier lists in general would be interesting, I suppose the nuzlocke community kinda does it?

That aside, I was going to mention Dream World Pokemon for BW/2 would open up a lot of options (albeit now locked behind some kinda tool)

Imagine how massive an Unbound tier list would be xd (Rom hack tier lists are a cool idea tho)

 

[Railroader17]

Imagine how massive an Unbound tier list would be xd (Rom hack tier lists are a cool idea tho)

Also

Infinite Fusion, and it's literal infinite possibilities. (And the infinite number of Slaking Fusions with a physical attacker sitting at the top of the list, especially Azumarill for Huge Power. Also Gyarados also for physical attackers, and Abra for any and all special attackers)

 

[Karxrida]

I remembered this thread and had an idea to talk about Johto mons exclusive to Kanto if they were actually allowed in Johto, but Eeveeto already covered most of those so I'll finish the job.

Okay so GSC Misdreavus is admittedly not great. While its stats are passable for Gen 2 is has like no moves. Look at this.

No real damaging move until 27, and your TM options are extremely slim. Sadge.

However, it could have been kind of usable. Psybeam is decent for all the Poison-types you fight, and Shadow Ball is still able to do damage even with low Attack in a pre-Physical/Special split game thanks to badge boosts and stat EXP. And it's a Gym TM so it's free. If Misdreavus was available at Burned Tower (so it could have skipped any dead period like Gastly has due to near-instant Shadow Ball access after Morty, and it also just works with the vibes) it might have been a decently usable D or maybe even C rank Pokémon.

In HGSS, though, we'd have something. Shadow Ball is a Special move now, Missy has a wider and better movepool (both natural and from TMs), and the Mismagius evolution provides a much-needed stat buff. While Gengar would still be better overall and the games would need to be changed to allow access to the Dusk Stone before Kanto, Mismagius wouldn't require the trade evo, could still avoid the dead period if made available around Morty, and has more Special bulk to differentiate itself from Gengar. Could potentially be a B rank, but only being available after the Normal and Ghost Gyms would hurt a lot and it would likely just be C like how it's ranked for DPPt currently. At least it could super cheese Chuck.

 

[Pandadude]

The FRLG thread is locked so guess I will post here. Overall great work with the list and agree with most things, but jiggly being in D tier when clefairy is A tier looks off to me. Much like the hitmonchan hitmonlee discussion, these two mons have similar availability, movepool, and stats. Jiggly needs exp share to get to lvl 9 for pound, has more hp at the cost of spa., spd, def, and spe. Clef also has the benefit of calm mind and soft boiled, which is what makes it better in the late game. Att is the same though, so they are similar in terms of the early and mid game with mega punch/secret power and other random TMs. Should probably move up to C tier next to something like ratata.

Edit: I take it back after trying it, stats are just too trash even against someone like koga in the mid game. Being so slow is super annoying. Can't benefit from rest like snorlax despite the big hp.

The butterfree movepool mentions psychic, but dream eater is better, available earlier, and there is no competition for it.

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

What if you had other regions' starters in FRLG?
(And the National Dex with Universal Pokémon Randomizer's updates)

For the sake of clarity, here's what I changed:

• Fire Red - Hoenn Starters | Leaf Green - Johto Starters
• Wild Level increased by x1.2 for convenience
• National Dex from the start so starters are functional and some extra mons.
• Easier evolutions (Eevee by stones, etc.) It's a literal toggle, I don't remember the specifics, but it gave me Dragonite and Kingdra at Lv 40.
• Moves updated to Gen 5, except Bullet Seed (Manually changed that later, up to 125BP is ludicrous)
• All mons set to Medium-Slow Exp. Group.

Umbreon
Hilariously busted against Sabrina, Psychic does wonders for it, but boy, does it fall off.
Gen 3 Umbreon not having moves like screens and Calm Mind really limits it, Faint Attack being its best STAB is very awkward. I had to give it Toxic against Blue's Alakazam because otherwise I'd have to PP stall Recover. Blackglasses being available in-game for it helps, but doesn't really fix its issues.

Raichu
Simultaneously clutch and a deadweight. TWave is generally useful, even if sometimes you don't actually have to click it because of Static, but the E4 saves it. Thunderbolt is genuinely one of the most useful moves you can have there, and this guy really gets to spam it. I wound up giving it Light Screen over Mega Kick by the E4 because I didn't need it anymore, and that helped a lot too.

Dragonite
Somehow, even without the Slow exp. group, it dragged the team down by 2 levels compared to Leaf Green's. Got the Game Corner one because it was significantly earlier, and I didn't wanna risk Safari mechanics.
This mon plain old sucks. Coverage merchant. It wouldn't even be available as a DNite in the E4 if it wasn't for the earlier evo.
Lorelei obviously eats it alive, Lance's Dragonite survives a Blizzard due to the level difference... Just get a Starmie. Seriously.

Sceptile
Leaf Blade Merchant.
It's almost funny how this mon just underperforms if it's not hitting Leaf Blade for super-effective damage. The moves just aren't there for it. It really wants to go special, but instead, it gets uhhh, Dig, Aerial Ace... that kind of stuff. I actually rolled a Lonely Sceptile and it was still underwhelming. I didn't give it Dragon Claw because I needed it on Dragonite, or so I thought. Neither one really had the chance to use it to be honest. In retrospect, it would've helped me against Lance's Dragonairs, but is that really the best use for it?

Arcanine
Kind of forgettable tbh. Fire isn't great late-game in Kanto, but Intimidate is always nice.

Crobat
A very unfortunate victim of boneheaded design decisions. I'm not necessarily talking about vanilla here, whose idea was it to give it Poison Fang at Level 49? Sludge Bomb being post-game in the region with the most Poison-types ever is also insane work.
With that said... It evolves quickly, eventually runs into some power issues, but it's generally useful enough to be good the whole game. Nice defensive typing too.

---

Meganium
This mon destroys Kanto. Meganium is generally underrated for running into bad early-game matchups in GSC (Despite being good against Whitney, which is more important than being able to beat glue-eaters like Bugsy and Morty) but without said bad matchups?

This mon absolutely goes on a TEAR.

Brock doesn't even count as a speedbump. Misty's Starmie would pressure most teams, but Bayleef absolutely folds it. It sweeps Lorelei. Including the Jynx.
Matter of fact, it sweeps SABRINA.

Hell, I was getting levels on it on Blaine's gym! The only reason it doesn't put Blaine on a T-shirt as well is Intimidate.

If people tell you that Chikorita is a bad starter, you can genuinely assume it's either parroting, or a skill issue.

Clefable
I expected it to be a coverage merchant that would fall off late game. It had TBolt. It did not fall off late-game.
Clefable just works. Plain and simple. It's really all about what TMs you wanna give to it, and in my case, it was Psychic. That's really all it takes in Kanto. Being a functional mon with Psychic will get you anywhere in the game, but it also gets Calm Mind if it needs to patch up its stats, though I never really used it, and TBolt eventually so it can enjoy even more coverage.

Kingdra
A very pleasant experience. I messed up pretty bad not swapping it with Dragonite when I built the teams, I didn't know it was easier to get in FR, and it wound up costing Sceptile Dragon Claw.
Regardless, both Horsea and Seadra have good Defense, which makes catching up easy, and also, fishing with the Super Rod gets you ridiculously high-leveled mons. Rain Dance gets it over the edge too, and unlike Seadra, it laughs at most special attacks because of its much higher SpD and Dragon typing.
The one gripe I have with it is that it only gets Twister for Dragon STAB.

Steelix
Kanto cannot deal with Steelix. Simple as that. That much defense on that typing makes it the ultimate physical wall. Unlike Onix, it actually gets good damage too. Iron Tail being a Game Corner TM sucks, but it's a pretty serviceable move until you get EQ. Rock Head Double-Edge is hilarious, but by the E4, you hardly need it.

Ninetales
Unlike most Fire-types in this game, it gets two tools that really make it stand out.
Will-O-Wisp, and Flamethrower by level-up.
Wisp is sensational, getting to flip physical matchups and get chip damage is really good, especially before you get Flamethrower. That makes it so much better to use compared to Gen 1, where you really feel the struggle.
Flamethrower carries it the rest of the game on offense.
It also gets Safeguard if you need it. Kanto is pretty heavy on status, so that's a good option.

Pidgeot
Literally everyone knows how it's like to play PIdgeot in Kanto.
It's really just a solid mon that will get you where you need to go without any kind of flashiness or turbulence. I wish it had Reflect like Gen 1 so it could stand out a bit, but honestly, nobody complains about freaking Pidgeot.

 

[Samtendo09]

What if you had other regions' starters in FRLG?
(And the National Dex with Universal Pokémon Randomizer's updates)

For the sake of clarity, here's what I changed:

• Fire Red - Hoenn Starters | Leaf Green - Johto Starters
• Wild Level increased by x1.2 for convenience
• National Dex from the start so starters are functional and some extra mons.
• Easier evolutions (Eevee by stones, etc.) It's a literal toggle, I don't remember the specifics, but it gave me Dragonite and Kingdra at Lv 40.
• Moves updated to Gen 5, except Bullet Seed (Manually changed that later, up to 125BP is ludicrous)
• All mons set to Medium-Slow Exp. Group.

Umbreon
Hilariously busted against Sabrina, Psychic does wonders for it, but boy, does it fall off.
Gen 3 Umbreon not having moves like screens and Calm Mind really limits it, Faint Attack being its best STAB is very awkward. I had to give it Toxic against Blue's Alakazam because otherwise I'd have to PP stall Recover. Blackglasses being available in-game for it helps, but doesn't really fix its issues.

Raichu
Simultaneously clutch and a deadweight. TWave is generally useful, even if sometimes you don't actually have to click it because of Static, but the E4 saves it. Thunderbolt is genuinely one of the most useful moves you can have there, and this guy really gets to spam it. I wound up giving it Light Screen over Mega Kick by the E4 because I didn't need it anymore, and that helped a lot too.

Dragonite
Somehow, even without the Slow exp. group, it dragged the team down by 2 levels compared to Leaf Green's. Got the Game Corner one because it was significantly earlier, and I didn't wanna risk Safari mechanics.
This mon plain old sucks. Coverage merchant. It wouldn't even be available as a DNite in the E4 if it wasn't for the earlier evo.
Lorelei obviously eats it alive, Lance's Dragonite survives a Blizzard due to the level difference... Just get a Starmie. Seriously.

Sceptile
Leaf Blade Merchant.
It's almost funny how this mon just underperforms if it's not hitting Leaf Blade for super-effective damage. The moves just aren't there for it. It really wants to go special, but instead, it gets uhhh, Dig, Aerial Ace... that kind of stuff. I actually rolled a Lonely Sceptile and it was still underwhelming. I didn't give it Dragon Claw because I needed it on Dragonite, or so I thought. Neither one really had the chance to use it to be honest. In retrospect, it would've helped me against Lance's Dragonairs, but is that really the best use for it?

Arcanine
Kind of forgettable tbh. Fire isn't great late-game in Kanto, but Intimidate is always nice.

Crobat
A very unfortunate victim of boneheaded design decisions. I'm not necessarily talking about vanilla here, whose idea was it to give it Poison Fang at Level 49? Sludge Bomb being post-game in the region with the most Poison-types ever is also insane work.
With that said... It evolves quickly, eventually runs into some power issues, but it's generally useful enough to be good the whole game. Nice defensive typing too.

---

Meganium
This mon destroys Kanto. Meganium is generally underrated for running into bad early-game matchups in GSC (Despite being good against Whitney, which is more important than being able to beat glue-eaters like Bugsy and Morty) but without said bad matchups?

This mon absolutely goes on a TEAR.

Brock doesn't even count as a speedbump. Misty's Starmie would pressure most teams, but Bayleef absolutely folds it. It sweeps Lorelei. Including the Jynx.
Matter of fact, it sweeps SABRINA.

Hell, I was getting levels on it on Blaine's gym! The only reason it doesn't put Blaine on a T-shirt as well is Intimidate.

If people tell you that Chikorita is a bad starter, you can genuinely assume it's either parroting, or a skill issue.

Clefable
I expected it to be a coverage merchant that would fall off late game. It had TBolt. It did not fall off late-game.
Clefable just works. Plain and simple. It's really all about what TMs you wanna give to it, and in my case, it was Psychic. That's really all it takes in Kanto. Being a functional mon with Psychic will get you anywhere in the game, but it also gets Calm Mind if it needs to patch up its stats, though I never really used it, and TBolt eventually so it can enjoy even more coverage.

Kingdra
A very pleasant experience. I messed up pretty bad not swapping it with Dragonite when I built the teams, I didn't know it was easier to get in FR, and it wound up costing Sceptile Dragon Claw.
Regardless, both Horsea and Seadra have good Defense, which makes catching up easy, and also, fishing with the Super Rod gets you ridiculously high-leveled mons. Rain Dance gets it over the edge too, and unlike Seadra, it laughs at most special attacks because of its much higher SpD and Dragon typing.
The one gripe I have with it is that it only gets Twister for Dragon STAB.

Steelix
Kanto cannot deal with Steelix. Simple as that. That much defense on that typing makes it the ultimate physical wall. Unlike Onix, it actually gets good damage too. Iron Tail being a Game Corner TM sucks, but it's a pretty serviceable move until you get EQ. Rock Head Double-Edge is hilarious, but by the E4, you hardly need it.

Ninetales
Unlike most Fire-types in this game, it gets two tools that really make it stand out.
Will-O-Wisp, and Flamethrower by level-up.
Wisp is sensational, getting to flip physical matchups and get chip damage is really good, especially before you get Flamethrower. That makes it so much better to use compared to Gen 1, where you really feel the struggle.
Flamethrower carries it the rest of the game on offense.
It also gets Safeguard if you need it. Kanto is pretty heavy on status, so that's a good option.

Pidgeot
Literally everyone knows how it's like to play PIdgeot in Kanto.
It's really just a solid mon that will get you where you need to go without any kind of flashiness or turbulence. I wish it had Reflect like Gen 1 so it could stand out a bit, but honestly, nobody complains about freaking Pidgeot.

I was not at all expecting the Chikorita line dominating Kanto despite the Treecko line struggling in there… I wonder if Leech Seed and no weakness to Psychic does a lot on it’s favor, or was it something I just didn’t see at a glance?

The Poison type spam on Kanto is what makes me not all that surprised for Steelix being high tier if not top tier in Kanto, though.

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

I was not at all expecting the Chikorita line dominating Kanto despite the Treecko line struggling in there… I wonder if Leech Seed and no weakness to Psychic does a lot on it’s favor, or was it something I just didn’t see at a glance?

The Poison type spam on Kanto is what makes me not all that surprised for Steelix being high tier if not top tier in Kanto, though.

Unfortunately, Leech Seed is not available via level-up. If it was, Chikorita would've been A-Tier in GSC.

Not being weak to Psychic is extremely useful, but Chikorita has an extremely underrated level-up movepool. Razor Leaf that early gives it reliable offense early-game, and Body Slam is wonderful for neutral coverage and utility, but I know people will question the Poison and Flying-types.

Chikorita's secret is that it can nullify its weaknesses at any point with no effort.

Reflect early-game is an absolute cheat code. Most mons are physical, and Grass does resist the majority of special attacks that do pop up besides the Rival's starter. That notably includes Misty and Surge's, which would be difficult for many mons to handle.

So in reality, what ends up happening is that setting up Reflect allows Chikorita to tackle matchups that would be troublesome for the rest of the team and promptly shut them down, or even nullify its weaknesses.

And then, by the late-game, when strong special attacks show up, it gets Light Screen.

To put it in perspective, Blue's Alakazam gets forced out by Meganium. Sabrina gets swept because it genuinely can't handle it. The combination of being 3~4HKO'd by strong attacks, and healing while doing damage with Giga Drain straight up makes Meganium too tough to deal with.

Blaine's Rapidash couldn't deal 40% with Fire Blast.

And 5 turns is a lot to work with, because even if you switch out after KOing a mon on switch, you probably have at least 2 turns to have your next mon apply pressure with the extra defenses.

The final move really boils down to preference. Unfortunately, Chikorita gets Poisonpowder instead of Leech Seed, but it gets the job done in terms of chipping down opponents and actually messing with healing item ranges for bosses. Or, you can use Safeguard and shut down a ludicrous amount of hax.

And at that point, all you need is for the opponent to not resist both Grass and Normal if you didn't give it some kind of extra coverage TM instead of a second utility move. That's... not difficult. At all.

The Poison type spam on Kanto is what makes me not all that surprised for Steelix being high tier if not top tier in Kanto, though.

It's not just the Poison. Steelix resists so many physical attacks. Normal spam is just as prevalent and even Onix laughs at it. Shame it's mid-game.