Far Beyond Driven

[Radzinsky]

About a week ago, I started the process of building and testing teams in preparation for the creation of a team built around Nasty Plot Infernape. I figured out which Pokemon worked best together, and after a number of changes, came out with this. It's a team built with the goal of Nasty Plot Ape sweeping late game. I kept three goals in mind when making this team and they are:

1. Trap and kill Azelf, Gengar, and Starmie.

2. Lure out Blissey and Snorlax, and kill/weaken them severely.

3. Set up as many entry hazards as possible and weaken the opponent as much as I can before Ape comes out.


The team I'm about to show you is built solely on accomplishing those 3 goals, meaning everything capable of stopping Ape is gone and he can sweep what remains of the enemy.

Overview​

In Depth

Starmie@Choice Specs
Natural Cure
EVs: 4 HP/252 SpA/252 Spe
Nature: Timid
-Surf
-Thunderbolt
-Psychic
-Grass Knot

I wanted an unorthodox lead to start this team off well and give me lead from the first turn. Then I thought of all the annoying lead Machamp and Swampert out there lately. This came to mind because it OHKOs both as well as other common leads such as Heatran, Hippowdon, opposing Starmie, and Gyarados. It also 2HKOs Metagross and most Jirachi leads as well as scout for Blissey and Snorlax from the beginning of the game.

This lead also gives me the element of surprise, catching people off guard almost every time, this helps me gain momentum I need to pull of a clean sweep with Ape later on in the game. Starmie can also come back later in the game to fend off Gyara who haven't set up, or finish off anything that's been weakened. So all in all, this lead hits hard and fast from turn one and gives me an edge very early, and in the case of a Swampert or Hippowdon lead, lets me be free from Stealth Rock for the entire game.

This lead has some trouble with focus sash leads like Azelf and Aerodactyl, the former of which I sometimes predict an explosion from, and go into my Scarfed Rotom. When facing Aero leads, I usually take a nice chunk of damage that hurts my switch in capabilities, so I sometimes also switch into Rotom after breaking the sash, which can outspeed and finish off with neither Starmie or Rotom taking any damage.

Starmie hits hard, most of the common leads are OHKO'd and if not, they're 2HKO'd before they know what's hit them.

Skarmory@Leftovers
Ability: Keen Eye
EVs: 252 HP/240 Def/16 Spe
Nature:Impish
-Stealth Rock
-Spikes
-Roost
-Whirlwind

I knew i needed as many entry hazards as possible to help wear down the opponent quickly for Ape's sweep. Because Skarmory is capable of switching into most of OU's physical threats AND set up both Spikes and SR, I included it on the team. It always gets a chance to come in and get a free SR or Spike layer up, with all of the physical sweepers running wild. And if something boosts its attack via Dragon Dance or Swords Dance, I can whirlwind it out.

The EVs are basically the standard set, with the usual Attack EVs placed into Def, since I didn't include Brave Bird. While this does leave me shut down completely by Taunt, I can deal with the main concern with, Taunt Gyarados, via other members of my team.

Skarmory also lures out opposing Gengar, Starmie, and even Jolteon, which Snorlax can come in on and trap with a CB pursuit, which I'll get into soon. So by simply coming out and setting up entry hazards, Skarm lures in the Pokemon I need taken out, who can't escape OR kill whats trapping them.

Snorlax@Choice Band
Ability:Thick Fat
EVs: 4 HP/252 Att/252 Sp Def
Nature: Adamant
-Body Slam
-Pursuit
-Earthquake
-Fire Punch

After identifying Ape's problems with Starmie, Gengar and other fast special attackers, I wanted to include a Pursuit user. But I already had a Steel type, Skarm, so Scizor and Metagross' own steel typing was redundant. And Tyranitar brings a SS which I'd prefer not to use Starmie and Infernape in if I don't absolutely have to. That's when Snorlax came to mind. I'd have a special tank to switch IN to all those Psychics and Shadow Balls AND trap them.

Body Slam lets me hit other things on the switch or even if my opponent attempts to set up, not realizing I'm CB; the chance of para is cruel but wonderful. Earthquake is really for Heatran and Jolteon, and Fire Punch lets me hit Scizor on the switch if I'm sure he's coming in. The great thing about this Pokemon is that even with a primarily offensive EV spread, its natural bulk lets it support Skarmory's weaker special defenses and even cause switches. Letting the entry hazards do their job.

Rotom-H@Choice Scarf
Ability:Levitate
EVs: 4 HP/252 SpA/252 Spe
Nature:Timid
-Shadow Ball
-Thunderbolt
-Wil-o-Wisp
-Trick

Rotom-H serves as my team's Spin blocker and revenge killer. I needed this primarily because even if Blissey isn't lured out and killed before Ape's sweep, atleast having as many entry hazards up lets me keep it in check and gives me a chance of powering my way through it. Rotom is also my answer to DD Gyara, and works in tandem with lead Starmie, taking out the sash leads in can switch in to, such as Azelf and Aerodactyl.

Rotom also helps Ape's Sweep by weakening the bulky waters like Suicune and Vaporeon, and even crippling them (and Blissey) with Trick.

I included WoW instead of Overheat because Infernape has a powerful Fire Attack that can take out grass Pokemon during his sweep, and WoW seemed more beneficial to me, especially in an emergency situation where I can come in on a boosted sweeper and WoW before my team takes too much damage. Take Lucario, for example, who can't hit me with ExtremeSpeed and is burned before it is able to land a hit.

Mamoswine@Life Orb
Ability:Snow Cloak
EVs: 4 HP/252 Att/252 Spe
Nature: Adamant
-Earthquake
-Ice Shard
-Stone Edge
-Superpower

Aside from Snorlax, my team was lacking in Physical strength, especially with Snorlax and Blissey as such big threats. This, and because I wanted a way to check Dragonite and Flygon, I chose Mamoswine. Being able to 2HKO Swampert with Earthquake is no joke. Ice Shard destroys Dragonite and Flygon and has a chance to OHKO Breloom with no entry hazards up (which on this team, usually means its always an OHKO). Stone Edge is for Gyara and Superpower is for Blissey, Snorlax, and opposing Mamoswine.

Having lost some of its usefulness with the ban of Salamence, Mamoswine is still a very powerful sweeper in OU, and with a powerful stab priority attack making up for its low speed, Mamoswine is a force to be reckoned with. With Stealth Rock and Spikes up, almost nothing is going to wanna be switching into this thing.

Infernape@Life Orb
Ability:Blaze
EVs: 4 Hp/252 SpA/252 Spe
Nature: Timid
-Nasty Plot
-Fire Blast
-Grass Knot
-Vacuum Wave

This is the star of the show, Nasty Plot Infernape. While I understand going fully special leaves me open to Blissey, every move is dire and the rest of my team is dedicated on taking her out before Ape even starts setting up. Fire Blast is for powerful STAB, Grass Knot is for bulky waters and Hippowdon, and Vacuum Wave is for Lucario, Heatran and Tyranitar, the later two of which commonly run Choice Scarf sets. Vacuum Wave also lets me hit weakened Pokemon who my other attacks won't do much to.

This is a simple Pokemon to use, after its counters are taken care of. After that, anything that comes in stands absolutely no chance, especially with all of the entry hazards that have been set up.



Closing
While I've spent much time planning out the situational removal of Ape's counters, that leaves a few holes for certain Pokemon to give my team trouble. The most prominent of which is Zapdos. The Offensive sets rip through a lot of my team, and force me to bring out Ape early most of the time. Snorlax can't deal enough damage to the defensive sets, and ends up getting poisoned via Toxic. Is it worth putting HP ice on Infernape in place of Grass Knot, since most Swampert will already be gone, weakened by the time Ape sweeps?

Also, opposing Infernape destroys my team, unless Starmie is still alive to take a hit. What can I do to fix this weakness without changing a large chunk of the team?

I'd also appreciate any constructive criticism and suggestions on how to change the team and I thank you for taking the time to read this.

 

[tawp64]

One thing to change is psychic on starmie for rapid spin. That way you can finish off leads with 1 HP and stop rocks.

 

[Radzinsky]

One thing to change is psychic on starmie for rapid spin. That way you can finish off leads with 1 HP and stop rocks.

The whole point is that it can OHKO Machamp, and I don't really mind rocks, no one on my team is really weak to them.

 

[Maketsu]

Hi, i see you have pretty solid team right here.

I have only one quite small change option. I think you would change your Starmies item as Life Orb and moveset to Hydro Pump/ThunderBolt/Ice Beam/Rapid Spin or Recover. Specs Surf doesnt bring important OHKO's or 2HKO's which isn't 2HKOed by Hydro Pump. Also, you have 3 Choice users, it's pretty much. Last moveslot is your own deciding, i think Rapid Spin isn't necessary because you haven't Rock-weaknesses and Recover would keep your Starmie longer alive, if you want it. Azelf's explosion is easy to predict and if you are afraid of lead Azelf Defensive Rotom-H set would help.

Not much to say. Good luck with your team. :)

The whole point is that it can OHKO Machamp, and I don't really mind rocks, no one on my team is really weak to them.

Oh, then you could use Psychic over Ice Beam or in last slot, if you want all out attacker. (Talking about my suggestion)

 

[fusion2]

Nice team really, I have already started to create my own one, soon I'll show it here.

 

[Radzinsky]

Hi, i see you have pretty solid team right here.

I have only one quite small change option. I think you would change your Starmies item as Life Orb and moveset to Hydro Pump/ThunderBolt/Ice Beam/Rapid Spin or Recover. Specs Surf doesnt bring important OHKO's or 2HKO's which isn't 2HKOed by Hydro Pump. Also, you have 3 Choice users, it's pretty much. Last moveslot is your own deciding, i think Rapid Spin isn't necessary because you haven't Rock-weaknesses and Recover would keep your Starmie longer alive, if you want it. Azelf's explosion is easy to predict and if you are afraid of lead Azelf Defensive Rotom-H set would help.

Not much to say. Good luck with your team. :)


Oh, then you could use Psychic over Ice Beam or in last slot, if you want all out attacker. (Talking about my suggestion)

Thank you for the suggestions, but do I still get that OHKO on machamp and pert? i dont think I do.

 

[Maketsu]

Well, then just use Psychic over Ice Beam or in last slot. Machamp takes 93.4% - 110.8% from Psychic so it has big possibility to OHKO. Swampert is 2HKO with Hydro Pump. T1: Starmie used Hydro Pump, Swampert used SR. T2: Starmie used Hydro Pump, Swampert fainted.

You see, you don need that Grass Knot or Specs. Swampert even cant do anything big for your team. Skarmory can set up layers till he roars you out.

 

[Azlanslayer]

You Will Still OHKO Machamp With Psychic With LO As I Have USED it..If Your Are Unlucky You Can Get the Min Dmg And Machamp Still Lives D:Also,You Have One Counter For Gyarados ( Bar Starmie As Its Scarfed) So You Might WANT TO use Thunderpunch On Snorlax

 

[Radzinsky]

You Will Still OHKO Machamp With Psychic With LO As I Have USED it..If Your Are Unlucky You Can Get the Min Dmg And Machamp Still Lives D:Also,You Have One Counter For Gyarados ( Bar Starmie As Its Scarfed) So You Might WANT TO use Thunderpunch On Snorlax

@Maketsu: Good luck getting Hydro Pump to hit twice if at all, atleast with my luck. I will give it a try though.


@[DR]Infernape: Starmie is specs, and it can't outrun/live a hit from Gyara after +1, rotoms the only who can do that, so I'm gonna try out Tpunch on Snorlax.

 

[Radzinsky]

Bump: I'd like to get a few more rates.

 

[agamemaker]

you might want a spinner considering that suicide leads will get sr up on you. I would use overheat over will-o-wisp on scarf sets. Otherwise locks formidable.

 

[Yllnath]

I'd like to suggest a replacement for your Snorlax, actually. For the role you are using Snorlax, one pokemon comes to mind straight away that outclasses it in nearly every situation.

Slaking @ Choice Band
Adamant
252 Atk, 252 Spe, 4 HP.
Return
Fire Punch
Earthquake
Pursuit

It's almost the exact same moveset as Snorlax, and Body Slam could be placed over Return if you really want the paralysis chance. However, the 17 BP difference is pretty noticable.
When it comes to CB killing/pursuiting, this guy is a beast, certainly compared to Snorlax, with it's 100 base speed and 160 base attack. Truant is a nasty ability, but I don't assume you use Snorlax to spam the same repeated move turn after turn anyway.
The biggest difference is the defensive emphasis. Both are very bulky, Slaking also has a phenomonal HP stat of 150, only 10 points short of Snorlax. However, Snorlax has a much higher SpD stat, where as Slaking has a much higher Def stat. If you insist on having this poke also do the special tanking, Snorlax is better. But for pursuiting duties/CB revenge killing, Slaking hits like a champ with his STAB Returns (Often netted me OHKOs on even pokemon that were on 100%) and outspeeds a large number of pokemon too.

Just something to think about.

 

[Poor]

Slakings horrible ability makes it a bad choice IMO, just keep snorlax id say

 

[Yllnath]

Truant and Choice Band complement each other perfectly. Even if Truant isn't there, the very nature of any Choice set, but especially a Band or Specs set, is to hit hard once, and then have an opponent switch into you that takes that 1 attack very well. For that reason, most CB or CS users are pretty much forced to switch anyway after that 1 turn of attacking.
In that case, who cares about Truant? I've used Slaking with great success in my teams. It needs some prediction, perhaps more than other Choice sets, but any Choice set pretty much works that way anyway. And Slaking clearly outclasses Snorlax's offensive potential by a large margin. The only sacrifice is the ability to take special hits less well. That isn't to say that 150 HP and 65 Sdef is nothing, he still takes hits rather well.

Just to show the difference between the two:

252 Atk Adamant CB Slaking using Return vs. standard DDNite (Adamant, 252 HP EVs): 86.5% - 102.1%
252 Atk Adamant CB Snorlax using Return vs. standard DDNite (Adamant, 252 HP EVs): 66.1% - 78.0%

I'm using DDNite as a example just for lulz, because I actually managed to OHKO one (After SR) recently with Return, and got a rage chat as a result about haxing and impossible and Nite being bulky and etc. In this example, Slaking always OHKOs after SR and has a small chance to OHKO, even without. Snorlax has a very small chance to OHKO even with SR.
Anyway, you can do the calcs on what ever pokemon you want, but Slaking just packs a much bigger punch that Snorlax and has 100 spe to boot, outspeeding many things.

 

[Shizzle]

Truant and Choice Band complement each other perfectly ??? What ????. Even if Truant isn't there, the very nature of any Choice set, but especially a Band or Specs set, is to hit hard once, and then have an opponent switch into you that takes that 1 attack very well. For that reason, most CB or CS users are pretty much forced to switch anyway after that 1 turn of attacking. Hence allowing SDLuke, SDApe, CMJirachi or anything with a Sub or set up move to come in and dance, hence why Slaking is crappy in OU
In that case, who cares about Truant? I've used Slaking with great success in my teams. It needs some prediction, perhaps more than other Choice sets, but any Choice set pretty much works that way anyway. And Slaking clearly outclasses Snorlax's offensive potential by a large margin. The only sacrifice is the ability to take special hits less well. That isn't to say that 150 HP and 65 Sdef is nothing, he still takes hits rather well. The mere fact that Snorlax attacks twice in two turns and Slaking only hits once is a rather large difference..

Just to show the difference between the two:

252 Atk Adamant CB Slaking using Return vs. standard DDNite (Adamant, 252 HP EVs): 86.5% - 102.1%
252 Atk Adamant CB Snorlax using Return vs. standard DDNite (Adamant, 252 HP EVs): 66.1% - 78.0% With SR Up, Dragonite will either die from the hit, or a LO recoil, or another Return...

I'm using DDNite as a example just for lulz, because I actually managed to OHKO one (After SR) recently with Return, and got a rage chat as a result about haxing and impossible and Nite being bulky and etc. In this example, Slaking always OHKOs after SR and has a small chance to OHKO, even without. Snorlax has a very small chance to OHKO even with SR.
Anyway, you can do the calcs on what ever pokemon you want, but Slaking just packs a much bigger punch that Snorlax and has 100 spe to boot, outspeeding many things. The kicker is that Slaking lets your opponent set up, almost freely for a turn, while you are locked into a move. Not to mention if they switch and you use an NE move, lets just say you are royally fucked for a turn.

Slakings horrible ability makes it a bad choice IMO, just keep snorlax id say

Quoted for truth.
I mean unless you are running Scarf Jirachi, I would stay the fuck away from Slaking, he is a terrible choice.

 

[Radzinsky]

Quoted for truth.
I mean unless you are running Scarf Jirachi, I would stay the fuck away from Slaking, he is a terrible choice.

I agree. Plus, Snorlax functions as a special tank, capable of taking all the powerful special attacks in the OU metagame. Slaking can't do this, and I don't wanna be getting set up on via Truant rest turns.

 

[Ghost.]

Hi,

On Ape there is no need for Hp [ice] due to stab Fire blast hitting harder than a x2 super effective Hp [ice]. Keep the moveset as it is because Suicune is generally a bitch to your team.

Skarmory will generally get more opportunities to spike if you use a Specially Defensive set like this one:

252Hp / 240SpD / 16Spe Careful

Skarm has plenty defensive without investment but you can spike on unboosted neutral special attacks quite easily with the set.

My last suggestion would be to consider Ice Punch > Fire Punch on Snorlax because the rest of your team handles Skarmory whereas Ice Punch helps with Zapdos / Shaymin issues. Changing the ability to immunity is also an important thing to consider as this means defensive Zapdos will not wear you down very fast. I mean...you have CB so you WILL get worn down if it is played cleverly, but it will definetely help.

 

[Plus]

Hello there!

First off, I'd like to say that you shouldn't try CB Slaking unless you want to give your opponent free turns to do whatever the hell it wants, but I'm not going to rant any further than this because I think we're in agreement here.

As for other disagreements with the rest of the rates here, I am not exactly sure if SpDef Skarmory is the best idea in this situation. The reasoning of "it spikes on more" is one thing, but I believe your team needs the defensive prowess of a real defensively bulky Skarmory to hold the team together in situations such as spiking up on lead Metagross, phazing a SD Scizor without too taking too much damage, defending against an Agiligross when Rotom-a is too weak to withstand a Meteor Mash + LO, and whatnot. I mean, with Defensive Skarmory you are still spiking up on stuff like Swampert, and the ability to spike on Vaporeon is still somewhat there. I advise keeping Skarmory defensive for now based on what I'm going to recommend for your team, so keep reading.
---

I don't see any gaping weaknesses in your team, however your team is fairly easy to whittle down when you are using glue like Snorlax to hold your team together. There really is no decent switch in to defensive Rotom sets or Subsplit variants. A Rotom-a comes in on your Mamoswine, Skarmory, or worst case scenario an EQ or Body Slam with Snorlax, and what exactly do you switch in here? If it's in on Snorlax, are you going to Infernape? You are essentially giving Rotom-a a free turn to Sub up, and either hit you with a Tbolt as you break its sub, or you double switch back to Snorlax in order to sponge hits while it can potentially burn you and cripple you to death. If it's in on Mamoswine or Skarmory, you're going to Snorlax, whom we've established is not 100% reliable against Rotom-a. CB Snorlax also falls victim to giving your opponent free turns to spikestack, which is brutal for this team, especially considering that you lack a spinner. Forretress and Skarmory can come in on Body Slams, or in Skarm's case an EQ even and get those free turns like it was nothing.

The team doesn't take too kindly to status, especially for something that contains a somewhat fat combo of Snorlax and Skarmory. This especially does not bode well for stall based teams -- a combination of burns and poisons could spell the end of your team. Blissey gets opportunities from Starmie especially when dishing out status willy nilly to your team -- the fact that the majority of your pokemon that beat Blissey as well take Toxics terribly is also problematic. You have to basically scout its status move be it Thunder Wave or Toxic, then switch accordingly.

Your problem with Zapdos and Jolteon come primarily from CB Snorlax as well. Snorlax is too easily whittled down in a team without wish support that I think you'd really want to consider getting a moveset change here. Curselax is a good pokemon to use when you want to set up on pokemon like Rotom without fearing status or anything of the sort. This nets you recovery and a way to actually deal with Zapdos better, instead of dying with repeated switch ins with SR followed up by an attack. Curselax will be your status absorber, it will be your go-to pokemon much better than CB lax, and it will be a menacing set up pokemon for you as well. I think you can part with the Pursuit in return for the benefits Curselax gives you. I can see it's one of your "goals" in pursuiting these threats, but you can still kill these threats off without trapping in order to keep Snorlax healthy to fend off Zapdos and Jolteon here.

I've lead with choiced variants of Starmie before, and there might be a way to help you out in terms of dying too early while still keeping some of the qualities of the Specs set. You could perhaps run Trick / Recover or Trick / Rapid Spin over Thunderbolt / Grass Knot on your Starmie, reason being that many Swampert leads will often switch out of Starmie turn 1 fearing the Grass knot, or will protect to scout for it. Thunderbolt for revenging things like Gyarados is taken care of by Rotom, and is something you can part with for my suggestions. Trick is quite surprising, especially when many stall teams try to go to Blissey turn one when their hippowdons and forretress are scared. Rapid Spin versus Recover is generally preference here. Your team handles Infernape so long as you keep Starmie healthy and Rotom scarfed, so Recover is generally a nice option if you want Starmie to be playing a more dominant role in checking things for your team. On the other hand, you can try Rapid Spinning, as your team leaves many openings for Skarmory and Forretress to come in and set up Spikes.

Lastly, I think you should consider running a Jolly nature on Mamoswine so you can outspeed pokemon like Heatran. Heatran at most hits 279 so Mamoswine can outspeed all non scarfed variants, and I believe Jolly still lands the OHKO on Shucatran. Furthermore, you will outspeed most Gyarados, as there rarely are jolly max speed gyarados running around, at most they attempt to hit 280. This way, you can Stone Edge them and pick them off before they attack you.

---

Starmie@Specs
timid 252 satk / 252 spe / 4 hp
surf / psychic / trick / rapidspin or recover

Mamoswine - Jolly > Adamant

Snorlax@ lefties
careful 168 hp / 120 def / 220 sdef
body slam / fire punch / rest / curse

I don't advocate running anything other than Fire Punch instead of another elemental punch on here. The point isn't that the rest of your team handles Skarmory and Forretress, the point of running Fire Punch is to threaten those pokemon out so they don't interrupt your sweep or spikestack on you. I'm sure nearly every team built with a Snorlax can adequately handle Skarmory and Forretress. That alone is not a viable point to replace fire punch lol.

good luck have fun hope i helped etc.

 

[Radzinsky]

Hello there!

First off, I'd like to say that you shouldn't try CB Slaking unless you want to give your opponent free turns to do whatever the hell it wants, but I'm not going to rant any further than this because I think we're in agreement here.

As for other disagreements with the rest of the rates here, I am not exactly sure if SpDef Skarmory is the best idea in this situation. The reasoning of "it spikes on more" is one thing, but I believe your team needs the defensive prowess of a real defensively bulky Skarmory to hold the team together in situations such as spiking up on lead Metagross, phazing a SD Scizor without too taking too much damage, defending against an Agiligross when Rotom-a is too weak to withstand a Meteor Mash + LO, and whatnot. I mean, with Defensive Skarmory you are still spiking up on stuff like Swampert, and the ability to spike on Vaporeon is still somewhat there. I advise keeping Skarmory defensive for now based on what I'm going to recommend for your team, so keep reading.
---

I don't see any gaping weaknesses in your team, however your team is fairly easy to whittle down when you are using glue like Snorlax to hold your team together. There really is no decent switch in to defensive Rotom sets or Subsplit variants. A Rotom-a comes in on your Mamoswine, Skarmory, or worst case scenario an EQ or Body Slam with Snorlax, and what exactly do you switch in here? If it's in on Snorlax, are you going to Infernape? You are essentially giving Rotom-a a free turn to Sub up, and either hit you with a Tbolt as you break its sub, or you double switch back to Snorlax in order to sponge hits while it can potentially burn you and cripple you to death. If it's in on Mamoswine or Skarmory, you're going to Snorlax, whom we've established is not 100% reliable against Rotom-a. CB Snorlax also falls victim to giving your opponent free turns to spikestack, which is brutal for this team, especially considering that you lack a spinner. Forretress and Skarmory can come in on Body Slams, or in Skarm's case an EQ even and get those free turns like it was nothing.

The team doesn't take too kindly to status, especially for something that contains a somewhat fat combo of Snorlax and Skarmory. This especially does not bode well for stall based teams -- a combination of burns and poisons could spell the end of your team. Blissey gets opportunities from Starmie especially when dishing out status willy nilly to your team -- the fact that the majority of your pokemon that beat Blissey as well take Toxics terribly is also problematic. You have to basically scout its status move be it Thunder Wave or Toxic, then switch accordingly.

Your problem with Zapdos and Jolteon come primarily from CB Snorlax as well. Snorlax is too easily whittled down in a team without wish support that I think you'd really want to consider getting a moveset change here. Curselax is a good pokemon to use when you want to set up on pokemon like Rotom without fearing status or anything of the sort. This nets you recovery and a way to actually deal with Zapdos better, instead of dying with repeated switch ins with SR followed up by an attack. Curselax will be your status absorber, it will be your go-to pokemon much better than CB lax, and it will be a menacing set up pokemon for you as well. I think you can part with the Pursuit in return for the benefits Curselax gives you. I can see it's one of your "goals" in pursuiting these threats, but you can still kill these threats off without trapping in order to keep Snorlax healthy to fend off Zapdos and Jolteon here.

I've lead with choiced variants of Starmie before, and there might be a way to help you out in terms of dying too early while still keeping some of the qualities of the Specs set. You could perhaps run Trick / Recover or Trick / Rapid Spin over Thunderbolt / Grass Knot on your Starmie, reason being that many Swampert leads will often switch out of Starmie turn 1 fearing the Grass knot, or will protect to scout for it. Thunderbolt for revenging things like Gyarados is taken care of by Rotom, and is something you can part with for my suggestions. Trick is quite surprising, especially when many stall teams try to go to Blissey turn one when their hippowdons and forretress are scared. Rapid Spin versus Recover is generally preference here. Your team handles Infernape so long as you keep Starmie healthy and Rotom scarfed, so Recover is generally a nice option if you want Starmie to be playing a more dominant role in checking things for your team. On the other hand, you can try Rapid Spinning, as your team leaves many openings for Skarmory and Forretress to come in and set up Spikes.

Lastly, I think you should consider running a Jolly nature on Mamoswine so you can outspeed pokemon like Heatran. Heatran at most hits 279 so Mamoswine can outspeed all non scarfed variants, and I believe Jolly still lands the OHKO on Shucatran. Furthermore, you will outspeed most Gyarados, as there rarely are jolly max speed gyarados running around, at most they attempt to hit 280. This way, you can Stone Edge them and pick them off before they attack you.

---

Starmie@Specs
timid 252 satk / 252 spe / 4 hp
surf / psychic / trick / rapidspin or recover

Mamoswine - Jolly > Adamant

Snorlax@ lefties
careful 168 hp / 120 def / 220 sdef
body slam / fire punch / rest / curse

I don't advocate running anything other than Fire Punch instead of another elemental punch on here. The point isn't that the rest of your team handles Skarmory and Forretress, the point of running Fire Punch is to threaten those pokemon out so they don't interrupt your sweep or spikestack on you. I'm sure nearly every team built with a Snorlax can adequately handle Skarmory and Forretress. That alone is not a viable point to replace fire punch lol.

good luck have fun hope i helped etc.

Hello, thank you for the great rate, and I'm gonna take these things into consideration. They only thing is that if I run curselax, I lose the ability to trap the pokemon that give my late game sweeper trouble, as you pointed out. Also, now all those Gengar and Starmie get to switch out, and the opponent just brings in there lucario or scizor and sets up. Even if I can take it out with fire punch, I will be too low on health to do anything beneficial like heal or attack again, and now I've lost my special tank and all those Gengar and Starmie get to live. I really have no other way of taking them out. Thats why CB Lax is so crucial to this team.

 

[Plus]

I understand that Pursuiting is a valuable asset to this team, however I disagree that it is an asset you cannot afford to lose. Killing is killing. It doesn't matter how you kill the pokemon so long as you kill it. Trapping is simply one way you can do this. Okay, Gengar and Starmie switch out, and bring in a Lucario or Scizor. A good player can simply switch out, or even kill Scizor or Lucario depending on the situation. If it's more important to kill Scizor or Lucario than a Gengar or Starmie, then you have the option to do that. I fail to see how CB Lax would fare better in a situation like you have pointed out. Pursuiting is one way that you leave your team open to Lucario or Scizor. While trapped in Pursuit, your opponent can set up using the following:

Sub Petaya Empoleon, Agility LO Empoleon, Swords Dance Infernape, Nasty Plot Infernape, SD Lucario, Agility Lucario, Agility Metagross, Dragon Dance Tyranitar, Swords Dance Scizor, Dragon Dance Gyarados (any variant), Dragon Dance Dragonite, it gives a free turn for Breloom, Magnezone, Machamp to sub, and it lets Skarmory and Forretress set up spikes for no cost. Hell, I may have even missed a few more threats. While these pokemon may or may not pose a threat to your team depending on the situation you are in, you really have to note the downside to this.

Though with Curselax you let Starmie and Gengar run away for free, note that you still have your revenge killer Rotom-a for Gengar, Starmie is outspeeding Gengar as well, and you have priority with Infernape and Mamoswine to kill Starmie should it be weakened (that's easy, you have spikes+sr, and it has LO). And to top it all off, you still have Snorlax as a whole to sponge hits for your team, and it does it way better than cblax, who lacks recovery. Even without CBlax you have ways to deal with Gengar and Starmie, albeit not as clean-cut as CBlax. Any other benefits I really would not like to repeat as they are mentioned in my rate, but please understand that my point is that I believe CBLax really isn't as staple as you make it out to be, especially considering the threats you have pointed out already.

Don't take this as me forcing you to take my suggestions, I'm really not. You're free to do whatever you want. Gengar and Starmie switching out is not the end of the world here, really.

 

[Radzinsky]

I understand that Pursuiting is a valuable asset to this team, however I disagree that it is an asset you cannot afford to lose. Killing is killing. It doesn't matter how you kill the pokemon so long as you kill it. Trapping is simply one way you can do this. Okay, Gengar and Starmie switch out, and bring in a Lucario or Scizor. A good player can simply switch out, or even kill Scizor or Lucario depending on the situation. If it's more important to kill Scizor or Lucario than a Gengar or Starmie, then you have the option to do that. I fail to see how CB Lax would fare better in a situation like you have pointed out. Pursuiting is one way that you leave your team open to Lucario or Scizor. While trapped in Pursuit, your opponent can set up using the following:

Sub Petaya Empoleon, Agility LO Empoleon, Swords Dance Infernape, Nasty Plot Infernape, SD Lucario, Agility Lucario, Agility Metagross, Dragon Dance Tyranitar, Swords Dance Scizor, Dragon Dance Gyarados (any variant), Dragon Dance Dragonite, it gives a free turn for Breloom, Magnezone, Machamp to sub, and it lets Skarmory and Forretress set up spikes for no cost. Hell, I may have even missed a few more threats. While these pokemon may or may not pose a threat to your team depending on the situation you are in, you really have to note the downside to this.

Though with Curselax you let Starmie and Gengar run away for free, note that you still have your revenge killer Rotom-a for Gengar, Starmie is outspeeding Gengar as well, and you have priority with Infernape and Mamoswine to kill Starmie should it be weakened (that's easy, you have spikes+sr, and it has LO). And to top it all off, you still have Snorlax as a whole to sponge hits for your team, and it does it way better than cblax, who lacks recovery. Even without CBlax you have ways to deal with Gengar and Starmie, albeit not as clean-cut as CBlax. Any other benefits I really would not like to repeat as they are mentioned in my rate, but please understand that my point is that I believe CBLax really isn't as staple as you make it out to be, especially considering the threats you have pointed out already.

Don't take this as me forcing you to take my suggestions, I'm really not. You're free to do whatever you want. Gengar and Starmie switching out is not the end of the world here, really.

Ok thank you, I'll give Curselax a shot and see how it goes.