Feminism

[Vidd]

I can quite categorically say I've had several awful experiences with men.
And sexual discrimination isn't rare in the slightest.

I can also classify myself as a feminist and I do believe there's many, many things that need changing about our society - the biggest being the abysmally low conviction rate for rape [amongst several other issues surrounding the subject - the basic attitude of the public needs to change, as well as the blame being placed immediately on the victim by our legal system.]

I'm assuming this is a reply to my post.
Sexual discrimination is hardly abundant where I'm from. I don't agree with your claim about its frequency (at least where I live). Perhaps your own experience is different or are you describing it on a larger scale?

The problem that you describe with rape charges is a problem with the legal system.

 

[obi]

I can quite categorically say I've had several awful experiences with men.
And sexual discrimination isn't rare in the slightest.

I can also classify myself as a feminist and I do believe there's many, many things that need changing about our society - the biggest being the abysmally low conviction rate for rape [amongst several other issues surrounding the subject - the basic attitude of the public needs to change, as well as the blame being placed immediately on the victim by our legal system.]

Not anywhere where I live. Here it's more "girl claims rape, there is no evidence at all aside from this, guy is convicted and sent to jail for several years".

 

[QuickDraw]

i agree. there were at least 3 cases during my senior year of highschool where a couple would have intercourse and the girls parents would find out and file rape charges. those young men (all of the males were 18 and two of the females were 17) had the rest of their lives incredibly fucked up because a girls parents forced her to testify against someone she decided to get involved with. only one of the guys actually had to go to jail and now he has to register as a sex offender even though he was just being a highschool boy, the other two are still going to have a hard time because while they may not have been incarcerated they still have the charge on their record.

back on topic though. as far as i have seen feminists want all of the beneficial rights that men enjoy but none of the ones that hinder them. you want equal rights? how about you register for the selective service knowing that if the united states ever enters a war like vietnam or WWII again there is a very likely possibility that you will die for your country. the plain fact is that most women cannot physically or emotionally handle the things many men in the united states go through every day. read the article chaos posted, it is very interesting.

 

[Basics]

Not anywhere where I live. Here it's more "girl claims rape, there is no evidence at all aside from this, guy is convicted and sent to jail for several years".

I had a friend expelled for a rape he didn't commit, the shit's no joke.

 

[Raikou]

And blame the strict college standards on women-- after all, all those high school idiots test poorly on the SATs, and I hate to break it to you, but they're just about always female.

Also, I'm about to open a book store. But I'll be charging women 50% more for their books they purchase, because that'll drive away the brain-dead housewives that probably don't know how to read, so more intelligent males will come. Sexism? It's economics. ;)

</satire>

...Just to show how hypocritical you've been sounding. No, I'm not a chauvanist...

If SAT scores are indicative of intelligence and success, how come more college graduates today are female? http://www.bsos.umd.edu/socy/vanneman/socy441/trends/collsex.html

I'd say a college degree is more of an accomplishment than your retention of high school topics (especially when people like me don't study for them and get a 1200 which is below what I had potential for, so not everyone is doing their best work). The amount of women with prestigious degrees, including ones from medical school, are quickly narrowing the gender gap which has already closed in several European countries, as they tend to be more progressive than the US.

To further prove you don't have a clue what you're talking about, women being primarily housewives died out in the 60's and it had nothing to do with intelligence. By your logic, did we enslave black people because they were stupid too? Is that why we gave them less rights than whites, because whites are smarter? Obviously not, whites oppressed them, and it was the same for women until the women's movement and since then you'll find most women of the younger generations active in the workforce. In Japan, this has caused a population problem because all the young women are pursuing careers and the amount of births is decreasing compared to the aging rate of the populace.

Your stereotypes were misguided and naive as disproved by my evidence. What I said about teenage boys getting in more car accicents, is empirically based and true regardless of your subjective feelings.

 

[Kristy Haruka]

Even though I don't agree with making one sex superior to the other, I think that women should be dominant sometimes and not just men. Its like all women are supposed to be in the house and that's wrong!

And why are we arguing about car insurance!? Who cares if men have to pay more for their insurance? Men were always the superior gender until recently... why don't you guys give us women a chance!? Men don't get raped or discriminated everywhere they go. They are almost always respected!

And I'm not a feminist but this world sure is really sexist. My daddy let me and my mom and my brother and sisters and friends go on many vacations and I can tell you that everywhere we went, it was almost the females who were discriminated against.

And us girls have so much more to worry about. We have to always look good and make our clothes match and everything. All you boys do is get up, pick out some clothes, put some gel on your hair and your done! You might think we have it easier, but its a horrible gossipy world for us girls!

 

[Alysanne]

If SAT scores are indicative of intelligence and success, how come more college graduates today are female? http://www.bsos.umd.edu/socy/vanneman/socy441/trends/collsex.html

More high school graduates are female as well, so the miniscule difference between SAT scores could be due to the fact that all the male idiots dropped out before taking them, whereas most of the girls smart or not stayed in school.

I'd say a college degree is more of an accomplishment than your retention of high school topics (especially when people like me don't study for them and get a 1200 which is below what I had potential for, so not everyone is doing their best work). The amount of women with prestigious degrees, including ones from medical school, are quickly narrowing the gender gap which has already closed in several European countries, as they tend to be more progressive than the US.

To further prove you don't have a clue what you're talking about, women being primarily housewives died out in the 60's and it had nothing to do with intelligence. By your logic, did we enslave black people because they were stupid too? Is that why we gave them less rights than whites, because whites are smarter? It was the same for women until this thing called the women's movement, and since then you'll find most women of the younger generations active in the workforce. In Japan, this has caused a population problem because all the young women are pursuing careers and the amount of births is decreasing compared to the aging rate of the populace.

Excuses bolded for reader's convenience.

Really now, you almost had me agreeing with you until you added in that last edit.

 

[Raikou]

Because it's more important to focus on a hypothesis based on my opinion, than to focus on facts. Ok. Note the words "could be".

 

[Alysanne]

Because it's more important to focus on a hypothesis based on my opinion, than to focus on facts. Ok. Note the words "could be".

Editing in a weak hypothesis based solely on opinion is quite silly. You said it yourself, in the above quote, that the facts were much more important than some random excuse, and you still edit it into the middle of your post. Why would you even bother? All it does is detract from the rest of the post.

Also, men still make more money than women, on average, which is far more of an indication of accomplishment than high school tests and graduation.

Predicted Response:

It's sexism/women aren't doing their best work!

Preemptive Response:
(chaos' link)
http://www.psy.fsu.edu/~baumeistertice/goodaboutmen.htm

This guy is pretty intelligent for a man, which means he's only average in comparison to a woman, but if you think about it logically, he's correct on all points.

 

[Raikou]

Wrong. Women who are doing the same work as men, in the same jobs, are getting paid less regardless of their ability. I'd say it's an indication of discrimination.

College degrees, unlike bosses who hand you your salary, are blind to your gender when deciding whether or not you graduate.

And I've heard enough whining from white males who are so absolutely dominant over every other race/gender group in society that there isn't even a derogatory term for them. You have nothing to whine about, those kinds of arguments as put forth in the essay show a lack of ability to put yourself in someone else's shoes- attending to the splinter in your own eye while ignoring the plank in another's. Yes, men have some relevant issues. But women and minorities have more and greater issues as indicated by our recent history as oppressed groups.

And I love how "culture exploits men", meanwhile you turn on the TV, a movie or the internet and you see half (and fully) naked women all over the place. That's not catering to women, sounds a little exploitive to me. And why aren't there any male strip clubs that cater to women?

 

[Alysanne]

Wrong. Women who are doing the same work as men, in the same jobs, are getting paid less regardless of their ability. I'd say it's an indication of discrimination.

College degrees, unlike bosses who hand you your salary, are blind to your gender when deciding whether or not you graduate.

A college degree is like a salary, someone else gives it to you. Are you trying to say that, for some reason, a manager (I've never had a boss look at me twice, much less remember my name or talk to me) looks down on you because your female, but, by my some miracle, college professors do not?

Seems fishy to me.

Also, ever heard of the term 'cracker'? And please, stop assuming that just because someone disagrees with you they are a white male.

I also think you completely missed the point of that man's writing.

 

[chaos]

This guy is pretty intelligent for a man, which means he's only average in comparison to a woman

ugh

Wrong. Women who are doing the same work as men, in the same jobs, are getting paid less regardless of their ability. I'd say it's an indication of discrimination.

College degrees, unlike bosses who hand you your salary, are blind to your gender when deciding whether or not you graduate.

dear lord

And I love how "culture exploits men", meanwhile you turn on the TV, a movie or the internet and you see half (and fully) naked women all over the place. That's not catering to women, sounds a little exploitive to me. And why aren't there any male strip clubs that cater to women?

You're totally right. There aren't naked men anywhere. As for strip clubs, they are a business and cater to supply and demand like anything else.

 

[Kristy Haruka]

^ Alysanne, if you're a girl... I don't think you're helping us. XD

 

[chaos]

^ Alysanne, if you're a girl... I don't think you're helping us. XD

Why is this about "help?" Why does this have to be a battle of the sexes? I really urge everyone to read the link I posted earlier in this thread. If you're going to be a crusader for equality, then stop making it a holy war where one side has to be better than the other. I wonder how THAT's gonna end? ;)

 

[Alysanne]

^ Alysanne, if you're a girl... I don't think you're helping us. XD

Being female does not mean that I have to agree with everything another girl says.

And chaos, I wasn't being serious.

 

[Raikou]

A college degree is like a salary, someone else gives it to you. Are you trying to say that, for some reason, a manager (I've never had a boss look at me twice, much less remember my name or talk to me) looks down on you because your female, but, by my some miracle, college professors do not?

Seems fishy to me.

Also, ever heard of the term 'cracker'? And please, stop assuming that just because someone disagrees with you they are a white male.

I also think you completely missed the point of that man's writing.

I assume you aren't in college so I will explain it for you. Whether or not you graduate depends on whether you pass all the degree required courses and whether your final GPA meets the minimum necessary. The professors do not grade you subjectively, they grade you on your tests and papers based on whether you fulfilled the requirements of the assignement. In many cases it is simply based on tests, no professor is going to intentionally mark your correct answers wrong unless he wants to endanger his job.

I've also had several jobs and yes, some bosses are downright sexist. And they give you a salary subjectively.

Cracker is not offensive on the level of some other insults, in most cases it is more comical. If you call a white person a cracker they may chuckle, and if they take offense to it they are probably a bit thin-skinned. It's like calling someone an asshole, there's no real historical context that makes it hurtful.

Now go into a group of black people and call them (BAN ME PLEASE)s. Call some women at your work stupid cunts. Or bitches, or whores. See if you a) make it out alive and b) keep your job.

You're totally right. There aren't naked men anywhere. As for strip clubs, they are a business and cater to supply and demand like anything else.

Right, and I don't have a problem with it personally, I was just making a point that they are a bit exploitive are they not? And the media is saturated with the same.

 

[obi]

And I've heard enough whining from white males who are so absolutely dominant over every other race/gender group in society that there isn't even a derogatory term for them.

Cracker, wigger, whitey, white bread, Charlie, white trash, hick, hillbilly, gringo, honky, round eye, pig...

You have nothing to whine about, those kinds of arguments as put forth in the essay show a lack of ability to put yourself in someone else's shoes- attending to the splinter in your own eye while ignoring the plank in another's.

Did you even read the link?

And I love how "culture exploits men", meanwhile you turn on the TV, a movie or the internet and you see half (and fully) naked women all over the place. That's not catering to women, sounds a little exploitive to me. And why aren't there any male strip clubs that cater to women?

There are lots of naked women because guys pay to see it. There aren't many male strippers because women don't pay to see them as much as men. There's nothing exploitative there, it's just difference in demand forcing a change in supply.

 

[kamikaen]

And why are we arguing about car insurance!? Who cares if men have to pay more for their insurance? Men were always the superior gender until recently... why don't you guys give us women a chance!? Men don't get raped or discriminated everywhere they go. They are almost always respected!

This is often the problem I (and other people I've talked to on this subject) have with feminism; feminists often think that equality is some pit for pat thing. If women were persecuted for so many years throughout history, then men should experience the same inequalities for an equal amount of time, correct? No. Were you personally married off to a horny Europeon lord in the 14th century? Then why should I, being a guy, have to pay for "whatever you've endured"?

Regarding car insurance: men shouldn't have higher car insurance because "we're ALL sexist". If a man has a bad driving record, then, yes, insurance should cost more (though I'm really against all men having higher insurance rates because "on average", we're more aggressive drivers), but not just because he's male.

And us girls have so much more to worry about. We have to always look good and make our clothes match and everything. All you boys do is get up, pick out some clothes, put some gel on your hair and your done! You might think we have it easier, but its a horrible gossipy world for us girls!

You can't say that a boy's life is easier, being a girl, because you obviously haven't experienced a male's life (and people who get sex changes are treated differently than either group, so don't just say, "I got a sex change" for argument's sake). And since when didn't guys care about clothes? You know, there is a guy's clothes section in stores other than Wal-Mart and Value Villiage. ;) And for the record, deodorant is generally part of a guy's morning routine. Or at least some of us. And as for social conformity; this is generally how it is where I live: you're macho, or you're excluded. You're having sex at 16, or you're excluded. You do drugs, or you're excluded. Getting the picture?

In a world where homosexuality is increasingly accepted, females are getting more athletic, and a girl's sex pill is being made, it wouldn't be unheard of to be male, and the victim of rape. Rape is terrible, but I don't think it's totally limited to females, any more.

Growing up with three sisters, I've learned to embrace equality. But screw feminism; as much as it spews that equality stuff, in my experience, it stands for women > men.

If you are a feminist who stands for the true version of equality, however, I applaud you. Yeah, I feel I have to put this for fear of people nailing me on hypocrisy; I said I didn't feel like paying for what I didn't do, but I generalized feminists. Generalization is fine, in my opinion, just don't let it affect anything too important, such as car insurance/money. Being politically correct is another thing I hate.

 

[Raikou]

Cracker, wigger, whitey, white bread, Charlie, white trash, hick, hillbilly, gringo, honky, round eye, pig...

Do you seriously think any of those are on the level of calling someone a (BAN ME PLEASE), which was a term used in the slavery days, or calling a woman a whore, someone who prostitutes herself for money? If so I question your judgment, especially since some of them don't apply to only whites. Waaah all the black kids called me...white bread.

Yes, I scanned the article, I've heard all the same arguments from a friend of mine who is 28, unemployed and has had very little success with women. He's all for the "society is dominated by women!".

I know why there are strip clubs and porn all over the internet and media. Regardless of the demand, most of it is exploitive whether you will admit it or not, whereas women getting cover free entry to a bar is not exploitive even if it discriminates on the same basis, economical gain. It benefits both genders. How do porn and strip clubs benefit me exactly? I guess if I ever get addicted to heroine and have an illegitimate child to take care of, I can always work there.

Note also, I never said men don't have their problems. They just pale in comparison to the very tangible problems of less privileged groups. Being born privileged does mean you have a higher chance of succeeding compared to someone of the same ability born into a less advantageous group, look at how many college graduates have kids who tend to do the same.

 

[chaos]

Yes, I scanned the article, I've heard all the same arguments from a friend of mine who is 28, unemployed and has had very little success with women. He's all for the "society is dominated by women!".

so... you didn't read the article, did you (that isn't the viewpoint of the article at all)

 

[Raikou]

Why should I? I have plenty of personal experience and education in the matter to go on, all of it supported by real evidence. That's more than most of the people I'm arguing with can say. No offense to anyone still in high school but you will only realize how myopic your views of the outside world are once you are actually out there.

But if you insist I will read this poor, underprivileged white man's whining, if only to prove that women have more and bigger issues than he does.

 

[Synre]

I know why there are strip clubs and porn all over the internet and media. Regardless of the demand, most of it is exploitive whether you will admit it or not, whereas women getting cover free entry to a bar is not exploitive even if it discriminates on the same basis, economical gain. It benefits both genders. How do porn and strip clubs benefit me exactly?

The point of attracting women to bars and men to porn isn't about benefiting consumers. The bar isn't trying to benefit men or women for the sake of benefiting men or women, it's benefiting them because by doing so the profit of the bar is increased. It's a little different in that it's important to keep customers happy in order to get repeat business, but the comparison is flawed. Both the pornography/strip clubs and the bar are doing what they can to increase their own profits, not to be a public service.

 

[chaos]

Why should I? I have plenty of personal experience and education in the matter to go on, all of it supported by real evidence. That's more than most of the people I'm arguing with can say. No offense to anyone still in high school but you will only realize how myopic your views of the outside world are once you are actually out there.

But if you insist I will read this poor, underprivileged white man's whining, if only to prove that women have more and bigger issues than he does.

So basically what you're saying is that you have a holier-than-thou attitude and not only reject, but misinterpret the viewpoints of others. Honestly, from this one post I couldn't care less if you read the article or not.

"are you serious"

 

[Raikou]

Hey, my views are on the table for everyone who has stated that "women have smaller brains" "women cant do math or science" "women suck at SATs" or "women lack the mental and emotional capacity to do the kinds of jobs men do", all gems from earlier in the thread. I don't sugarcoat, I mean it's the internet so why would I? And yes, in some arguments your age and experience do matter, like a 17 year old giving marriage advice, translate that into holier than thou if you will.

K, read most of the article, it basically tries to perpetuate all the women/men stereotypes while saying both are different but not unequal. Meanwhile the things it associates with men, such as being the creators of society, are clearly superior. I never said women and men are completely identical, I just said that society trains us to exaggerate the differences when in reality the difference between two individuals far exceeds the difference between groups as a whole. And a lot of the high risk/high reward is related to testosterone, but that doesn't mean women are or should be excluded from such, more and more women are motivated to shoot higher these days (first woman US president perhaps?) and I bet some women have higher testosterone than some males even. It's different by individual.

Also understand that what made men successful in the past is not always relevant in the present. Your big muscles, for example, were designed to hunt animals. But how many people have physically demanding jobs these days, and how many of the most lucrative jobs demand anything more than sitting at a computer or supervising people? It states is that men are better with large groups and women with intimate relationships, but something like being a doctor favors the latter so I wouldn't attribute men's "innate" abilities with an increased rate of success. I disagree with most of those stereotypes being biological, that's mostly gender socialization. Society is a lot different than it was when we evolved to be the way we are, and since technology has halted natural selection almost entirely, certain traits that used to be true are not necessarily selected for anymore.

A lot of these slight differences are just that, slight, and apply less and less as women attain the same status men have always had. Yet we still have some very sexist fucks out there.

 

[Synre]

As a former bartender, more women draws more men. Women get in free, men are happy because it's no longer a sausage fest, and a lot of the men are there to go home with one. Both groups benefit, money is made.

Yes, you said you were a former bartender earlier in the thread, but my point was that you are complaining that the discrimination pornography doesn't benefit you when the discrimination at bars benefits both genders is ridiculous because the only reason the bar is doing it is to make money - not to try and benefit either gender or try not to be exploitive. You said that that sort of female-only happy hour was ok at bars in a previous post, but that pornography and strip clubs were not, because in the former case both genders benefit and with the latter cases males are the primary beneficiary. This is flawed because either gender being benefited is just a side effect of what both business are doing, which is to try to make money. It is silly to fault a business for trying to profit since that is what they exist to do, and both of the strategies mentioned work.